New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu

[Guest guest]

I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South

India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village

about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai.

 

2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-nadu/

 

Read and enjoy.

 

Om Arunachala,

Richard

[Guest guest]

" Richard Clarke " <richard wrote i his posting about Life in a

Village:

 

>they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My

wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language.

 

Dear Richard:

 

Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " .

 

But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think

that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have

understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the permission?

 

All the best,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

" Richard Clarke " <richard wrote in his posting about Life in a

Village:

 

>they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My

wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language.

 

Dear Richard:

 

Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " .

 

But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think

that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have

understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the permission?

 

All the best,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

Dear Respected moderators,

 

Do such postings as these have any relevance to Vedanta and

Sri Shankara's teachings? Please elucidate me .

Thanking you.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

 

 

advaitin , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote:

>

> I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South

> India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village

> about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai.

>

>

2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-nadu/

>

> Read and enjoy.

>

> Om Arunachala,

> Richard

>

[Guest guest]

I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I hope there are others that feel that way as well.Hari Om

 

 

 

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

Dear Respected moderators,

 

Do such postings as these have any relevance to Vedanta and

Sri Shankara's teachings? Please elucidate me .

Thanking you.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

 

advaitin , "Richard Clarke" <richard wrote:

>

> I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South

> India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village

> about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai.

>

>

2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-nadu/

>

> Read and enjoy.

>

> Om Arunachala,

> Richard

>

 

 

 

Time for vacation? WIN what you need. Enter Now!

[Guest guest]

I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I hope there are others that feel that way as well.

 

Hari Om

praNams

Hare Krishna

I am one of the fond admirers of Sri Richard Clarke prabhuji's sincerity & dedication. But when it comes to list policies & objectives ( as outlined in the *List Policies), I dont think these posts with linked photographs have any *direct* relevance to vedanta in general & shankara's advaita vedanta in particular. Anyway, let us leave the final discretion/decision to the moderators of this list & focus on the *job* what we have on our hands :-))

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

advaitin , Ed Akehurst <nichiketa wrote:

>

>

> I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I

hope there are others that feel that way as well.

 

Dear Sri Ed Akehurst,

 

I request you to present points justifying your statement.

You have not given any facts substantiating your statement at all.

please do so.

Please permit me to bring to your kind notice that I am visiting

Sri Ramanasramam since 1970 and I knew personally some of the old

devotees like Smt Suri Nagamma , Sri Ramaswamy pillai etc. who lived

in the Asram during Sri Bhagavan's sojurn on this planet.We used to

have Satsangs At the residence of Late Sri K.Ramaswamy who had the

darshan of Sri Bhagavan in 1935 and Sri Ramaswamy was very close to

Sri Maurice Frydman, Prof. K.Swaminathan , Sri Muruganar etc.

Thanking you,

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

_______

> Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!

> http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Sreenivasa Murthy,

This will of course be opinion, and not fact, for it is a personal reason.Seeing pictures and descriptions of the people and culture from the region from which Vedanta originated puts me in a worshipful and meditative state. It allows me to further my studies and even, depending on the particular posting, gets me up away from the computer and into study or dharma work. That is just my experience with these posts in the past, and of course may not be that of everyone. I realize this is a decision for the moderators, but for me anything that helps me stay focused on dharma and knowledge is relevant and positive.Thank you for your inquiry as to my reasoning for making my statement. This list is most helpful to my study of Vedanta.Hari OmEd Akehurst

advaitin , Ed Akehurst <nichiketa wrote:>> I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I

hope there are others that feel that way as well.

>Dear Sri Ed Akehurst>I request you to present points justifying your statement.>You have not given any facts substantiating your statement at all.>please do so..

 

Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help protect your kids.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mouna,

 

Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age

old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part

(that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require

they disbelieve all, I don't know.

 

I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish

swims.

 

The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always

heard of water, but I have never seen it? "

 

Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities.

 

I think the same is true with me.

 

Om Arunachala,

Richard

 

, " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

>

> " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a

> Village:

>

> >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My

> wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language.

>

> Dear Richard:

>

> Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " .

>

> But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think

> that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have

> understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the

permission?

>

> All the best,

> Mouna

>

[Guest guest]

Pranams to all,

I have to say that I do share Sri Sreenivasajis doubts. Whenever such a

post appeared I asked myself the same question: What has this to do

with Vedanta?

I can understand the feelings evoked in some of us by those pictures - I

would have the same with Rishikesh and River Ganga as I have not yet

visited Arunachala. Watching Aarti in Haridwar on Youtube, I can cry

tears of joy and devotion, but I do not consider it this lists purpose

to nurture such feelings. They have their place, no doubt, but they are

still an expression of dvaita and not of advaita.

Om shanti

Sitara

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> >

>

[Guest guest]

PraNAms to all

 

My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing agent!

 

Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of Hills of

Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring

 

The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an innocent goat is

rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings being hurt in the name of

religious practices and if possible we need to educate the public involved and

if not at least keep away from them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH -

Love for all being is essential ingredient in growing up.

 

I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy the

pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those pictures that

take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to share in

life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show everything that goes

on since there are things that distracts or disturbs the mind than make it

saatvik.

 

Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away from dvaita.

Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both good and bad, it is

better to stick to the good until we evolve - that is what is implied in shama

and dama, as a part of saadhana.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Hari Om Sadananda ji,Respected pranams to you.Hinduism is multi-facted and multi-dimensional. There are hundreds of different practices in the Bharatvarsha which has been going on undisturbed for millenia. At the same time, all these practices learn, adopt and constantly evolve into different planes.

The success and the beauty of the Hinduism is that it has allowed all the pre-brahminical influences also to thrive and co-exist.The beauty of this religion and the dharmic way of life is to accommodate all points of view.

Having said this, I find your view that the goat-sacrifice is " repelling " is very amusing. The yagna is part of the vedic way of life for millenia. The Krishna says that he is reached through yagna. And, many of the vedic yagna involved sacrifices. Lord Krishna presided over rajasuya yagna (which involved sacrifice). Lord Rama performed Ashvamedha (which involved sacrifice).

It is only the buddhist influence on the hindu dharma which made this sacrifice " repelling " .Actually, this is a brahminical restricted way of seeing things that " repells " such practices because such a way does not comprehend the meaning behind this.

Sir, You wish that we should trescend both good and bad to reach pure advaita. But, I believe that you are already pre-banding certain practices as " bad " . Who are we to pre-judge sir? Are we not following dvaita because of our pre-conceived notions of good or bad?

Pranams,Jay2008/7/21 kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada:

 

 

 

 

PraNAms to all

 

My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing agent!

 

Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of Hills of Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring

 

The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an innocent goat is rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings being hurt in the name of religious practices and if possible we need to educate the public involved and if not at least keep away from them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH - Love for all being is essential ingredient in growing up.

 

I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy the pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those pictures that take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to share in life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show everything that goes on since there are things that distracts or disturbs the mind than make it saatvik.

 

Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away from dvaita. Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both good and bad, it is better to stick to the good until we evolve - that is what is implied in shama and dama, as a part of saadhana.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

-- http://jayaraman.wordpress.com/

[Guest guest]

Dearest Sada-ji:

 

You spoke my heart. Thank you for that.

 

Reading about the innocent goat being asked whether it wanted to be

killed for the family feast brought tears to my eyes. Such a post

should not be advertised on this list as most of us are either vegans

or practice some other form of vegetarianism which is based in Ahimsa.

 

Originally, these posts from Richard were " letters from Ramanaashram " .

Clearly this post is not consistent with that spirit.

 

I have been busy traveling and managing a number personal issues and

have not had the time to be involved in and keeping up with the lists.

 

But when I saw this, I wanted to say something.

 

The luthar.com and HS websites are being integrated over the summer.

There is a lot of work being done in the background by professionals.

When it is finished, I will announce the new and " improved " blog/website.

 

For now, I would like the Advaitin members to accept my apologies.

The post is about an aspect of the Indian culture. While it makes very

interesting reading for some people, it is not appropriate to

advertise it on this list at all.

 

In yoga, Ahimsa is the first principle. To transcend the mind and to

be the Self one must see the Self in all. In the relative world, when

violence is made to seem legitimate somehow, a Sadhak must not be

influenced by that. Self-Realization and Ahimsa go together.

 

I ask for your forgiveness for this post being advertised here.

 

I will communicate my feelings to Richard.

 

Namaste and love to all

Harsha

 

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

> PraNAms to all

>

> My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing

agent!

>

> Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of

Hills of Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring

>

> The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an

innocent goat is rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings

being hurt in the name of religious practices and if possible we need

to educate the public involved and if not at least keep away from

them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH - Love for all being is

essential ingredient in growing up.

>

> I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy

the pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those

pictures that take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to

share in life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show

everything that goes on since there are things that distracts or

disturbs the mind than make it saatvik.

>

> Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away

from dvaita. Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both

good and bad, it is better to stick to the good until we evolve - that

is what is implied in shama and dama, as a part of saadhana.

>

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

>

[Guest guest]

--- On Mon, 7/21/08, ஜயராமன௠<vaithikasri wrote:

 

 

Having said this,  I find your view that the goat-sacrifice is " repelling " is

very amusing.   ......

-----------

 

Shree Jay - PraNAms.

 

I do not think it is amusing to the goat that was being sacrificed!

 

Anyway as you pointed out as a saadhaka I am dvaitin since there is saadhya and

sandhana and saadhaka. You are right - my mind is not mature enough to see

samatvam in good and bad. If I have a choice, I would prefer to be good and like

all prefer food over garbage even though as a scientist I have the samatvam that

they are all electrons, protons and neutrons- Hence Shree Sastriji's recent

statement vyavahaara has to be handled at vyavahaara level and not mixed with

paaramaarthika level.

 

I have no intension of getting into arguments about the Hindu religion's animal

sacrifices. Ahimsa is also part of Hindu religion too, not necessarily only

Buddhist thought. Hence I close the website that Richard sent as soon as I saw

the innocent goat. My request was to refrain from such posts even though we know

SAT pervades everything - good and bad.

 

The point has been made and no further posts on this topic by me.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

, " Richard Clarke " <richard

wrote:

>

> I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South

> India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village

> about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai.

>

> 2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-

nadu/

>

> Read and enjoy.

>

> Om Arunachala,

> Richard

 

Namaste,

 

Pity about the murder of the goat, I'm sure 'God' is very happy.

 

Yes many parts of India still hold to ancient rites and superstitions

that come under the large umbrella of Hinduism;

 

Human animals, aspiring humans, humans, divine humans---depends where

you are how you behave...............Cheers Tony

[Guest guest]

2008/7/21 ஜயராமன௠<vaithikasri:

> Having said this, I find your view that the goat-sacrifice is " repelling "

> is very amusing. The yagna is part of the vedic way of life for

> millenia. The Krishna says that he is reached through yagna. And, many of

> the vedic yagna involved sacrifices. Lord Krishna presided over rajasuya

> yagna (which involved sacrifice). Lord Rama performed Ashvamedha (which

> involved sacrifice).

>

 

I agree entirely with Sri Jay here. yaj~na is a deep concept and must

be understood in the right spirit. Any activity is ultimately a

yaj~na. The throbbing universe is nothing but a grand yaj~na.

 

The pure sAtvik mArga is suitable for some people, but not for

everyone. All the 4 puruShArtha-s are considered legitimate and there

are sAdhana-s for all of the

 

2008/7/21 harshaimtm :

> Reading about the innocent goat being asked whether it wanted to be

> killed for the family feast brought tears to my eyes. Such a post

> should not be advertised on this list as most of us are either vegans

> or practice some other form of vegetarianism which is based in Ahimsa

 

I am a strict vegetarian too and in fact have never consumed meat ever

in my life. But people who are so bothered about ahiMsA should first

campaign against all the billions of meat eaters around the world and

the inhumane slaughterhouses that provide food for them.

 

Harsha-ji, there are various perspectives of looking at any issue.

Note that the poor goat would have been killed and consumed anyway. If

at all, one may say that it met a dignified end in the ritual rather

than in some merciless slaughterhouse. The other point is that the

average meat eater rarely sees the animal being killed. A meat eater

who sees the goat being killed in the ritual is likely to actually

develop some sensitivity and may even give up meat.

 

Also, what is a more relevant issue today that people should bother

about? The millions of animals being butchered in slaughterhouses or

the odd goat that is killed and consumed in a ritual?

[Guest guest]

Thank you, jay, my feelings exactly.John

[Guest guest]

Dear Richard:

 

Mine wasn't really a question...

I didn't need an answer, I know the answer.

 

I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a

death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that

something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea

that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the

caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of

innocent animals.

Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap,

takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it

to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as

westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had

been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this

" mis-readings " .

And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human

Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still

under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning

intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of

ignorance and ego-centered thinking.

 

Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?,

After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain

aspect of " life in India " with good intentions.

But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the

villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners

their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did

you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning

away, why?

I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your

life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected,

entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have

walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what

they are doing... and even less sharing the meal.

 

As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what

ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual "

will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or

human beings.

 

Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was

" potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not

speaking of the actual!

 

A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to

visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before

extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to

your understanding.

 

All the best,

Mouna

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Richard Clarke " <richard

wrote:

>

> Dear Mouna,

>

> Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age

> old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part

> (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require

> they disbelieve all, I don't know.

>

> I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish

> swims.

>

> The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always

> heard of water, but I have never seen it? "

>

> Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities.

>

> I think the same is true with me.

>

> Om Arunachala,

> Richard

>

> , " upadesa " <maunna@> wrote:

> >

> > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a

> > Village:

> >

> > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My

> > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language.

> >

> > Dear Richard:

> >

> > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " .

> >

> > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think

> > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have

> > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the

> permission?

> >

> > All the best,

> > Mouna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" Mouna " <maunna wrote:

>

> But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you

think that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they

would have understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking

the permission?

>

 

Dear Richard:

 

Mine wasn't really a question...

I didn't need an answer, I know the answer.

 

I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a

death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that

something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea

that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the

caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of

innocent animals.

Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap,

takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it

to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as

westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had

been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this

" mis-readings " .

And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human

Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still

under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning

intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of

ignorance and ego-centered thinking.

 

Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?,

After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain

aspect of " life in India " with good intentions.

But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the

villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners

their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did

you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning

away, why?

I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your

life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected,

entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have

walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what

they are doing... and even less sharing the meal.

 

As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what

ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual "

will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or

human beings.

 

Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was

" potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not

speaking of the actual!

 

A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to

visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before

extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to

your understanding.

 

All the best,

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

I see no merit in attacking somone who is not vegetarian !

 

Era

 

 

 

 

>

> Dear Richard:

>

> Mine wasn't really a question...

> I didn't need an answer, I know the answer.

>

> I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a

> death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that

> something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea

> that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the

> caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of

> innocent animals.

> Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap,

> takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it

> to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as

> westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had

> been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this

> " mis-readings " .

> And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human

> Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still

> under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning

> intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of

> ignorance and ego-centered thinking.

>

> Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?,

> After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain

> aspect of " life in India " with good intentions.

> But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the

> villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners

> their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did

> you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning

> away, why?

> I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your

> life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected,

> entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have

> walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what

> they are doing... and even less sharing the meal.

>

> As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what

> ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual "

> will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or

> human beings.

>

> Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was

> " potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not

> speaking of the actual!

>

> A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to

> visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before

> extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to

> your understanding.

>

> All the best,

> Mouna

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

, " Richard Clarke " <richard@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mouna,

> >

> > Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age

> > old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part

> > (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require

> > they disbelieve all, I don't know.

> >

> > I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish

> > swims.

> >

> > The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always

> > heard of water, but I have never seen it? "

> >

> > Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities.

> >

> > I think the same is true with me.

> >

> > Om Arunachala,

> > Richard

> >

> > , " upadesa " <maunna@> wrote:

> > >

> > > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a

> > > Village:

> > >

> > > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My

> > > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language.

> > >

> > > Dear Richard:

> > >

> > > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " .

> > >

> > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you

think

> > > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they

would have

> > > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the

> > permission?

> > >

> > > All the best,

> > > Mouna

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, " Era " <mi_nok wrote:

>

>

> I see no merit in attacking somone who is not vegetarian !

>

> Era

>

 

Era, hello,

 

At least the vegetarians and non-vegetarians humans have the capacity

to defend themselves from the so-called " attacks " in different forms,

and one of them is definitely an open dialogue putting on the table

the different points of view (and that of course, if they are not

bullied with guns by other humans...).

I doubt that the goat of the example had that possibility.

Paraphrasing you: " I see no merit in attacking someone that is

vegetarian either, like the little goat. "

 

All the best,

Yours in Bhagavan,

 

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Dear Mouna,

 

Thank you for the comment. I had some reluctance to the posting for

just such reasons. Your statement was a very good one. And certainly

Sri Ramana always followed strict vegetarianism and recommended it to

others.

 

One point I was making is that from what I see here vegetarianism is a

caste issue. Further I see that there continues to be very much caste

prejudice, with real anger as well as contempt often shown by the

'upper' castes to the 'lower.' What I see is just people, what Indians

seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice.

 

I still will eat meat. We have chicken every week. Maybe this means I

am spiritually impure, and have much to learn. This is probably the

case. I still love Arunachala, and Ramana, and the Self. And the Self

is not moved by any of this.

 

Small point: I think reaction and fear are not just limited to

animals. I remember from Hal Putoff's (maybe spelling is wrong)

'Secret Life of Plants' book, reporting experimentation with plant

done at Stanforn University, reports of excited galvanometer readings

from plants when they were under stress, or approached by particular

people. So it seems to me that even plants have 'feelings' and become

afraid. I am not trying to 'justify' my diet by saying this, but am

saying that perhaps things are different than we think. What then?

 

Thanks again for your comment.

 

Om Arunachala,

Richard

 

, " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

>

> Dear Richard:

>

> Mine wasn't really a question...

> I didn't need an answer, I know the answer.

>

> I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a

> death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that

> something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea

> that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the

> caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of

> innocent animals.

> Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap,

> takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it

> to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as

> westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had

> been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this

> " mis-readings " .

> And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human

> Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still

> under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning

> intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of

> ignorance and ego-centered thinking.

>

> Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?,

> After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain

> aspect of " life in India " with good intentions.

> But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the

> villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners

> their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did

> you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning

> away, why?

> I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your

> life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected,

> entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have

> walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what

> they are doing... and even less sharing the meal.

>

> As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what

> ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual "

> will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or

> human beings.

>

> Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was

> " potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not

> speaking of the actual!

>

> A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to

> visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before

> extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to

> your understanding.

>

> All the best,

> Mouna

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

, " Richard Clarke " <richard@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mouna,

> >

> > Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age

> > old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part

> > (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require

> > they disbelieve all, I don't know.

> >

> > I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish

> > swims.

> >

> > The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always

> > heard of water, but I have never seen it? "

> >

> > Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities.

> >

> > I think the same is true with me.

> >

> > Om Arunachala,

> > Richard

> >

> > , " upadesa " <maunna@> wrote:

> > >

> > > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a

> > > Village:

> > >

> > > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My

> > > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language.

> > >

> > > Dear Richard:

> > >

> > > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " .

> > >

> > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you

think

> > > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they

would have

> > > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the

> > permission?

> > >

> > > All the best,

> > > Mouna

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" Richard Clarke " <richard wrote:

>

> Dear Mouna,

>

> Small point: I think reaction and fear are not just limited to

> animals. I remember from Hal Putoff's (maybe spelling is wrong)

> 'Secret Life of Plants' book, reporting experimentation with plant

> done at Stanforn University, reports of excited galvanometer readings

> from plants when they were under stress, or approached by particular

> people. So it seems to me that even plants have 'feelings' and become

> afraid. I am not trying to 'justify' my diet by saying this, but am

> saying that perhaps things are different than we think. What then?

>

 

 

Dear Richard,

 

Thanks for such an honest and clear reply.

These matters are always subject to extremism, and we many times

forget ourselves in such debates.

My position is that if we are " aware " and can avoided, why not? For

example, I had a big discussion with a friend of mine because she was

telling me that the Dalai Lama is not vegetarian, and so " how could he

be speaking of compassion!. She could not accept the fact that his

health needs (being a tibetan and according to his doctors) a special

kind of animal fat to be kept a healthy body. So... what is more

important, a yak or the Dalai Lama, and who decides?

Evidently, all these desitions are personal, under the illusion that

we are the one dictating our choices.

 

I think common sense has to dictate our actions.

As you may know, besides the exceptional cases, meat consumption is

not necessary for a normal living, specially in India. So we could say

that it is a luxury, we could avoid it.

Now, we couldn't all live like jains, picking fruits that already fell

from trees, couldn't we? So the plant suffering issue is not really

one. Besides the fact that those experiments may only show a chemical

reaction, not the actual consciousness of the plant experiencing pain

or suffering. It is quite different with animals with a nervous

system, as I told you before, you just have to look into their eyes

next time one attends a slaughter, then we can speak.

 

The best analogy I heard related to this topic is, since we are all

One, and I Am Brahman, The Self, etc... etc.. why, when hungry, you

just don't snatch a piece of flesh from your body?

or from your wife's body?

You may say: " Well, that's different " ...

In which sense this is different?, if you have the understanding that

we are all One it SHOULD be the same, right?

 

Anyhow, the whole point was to point out some contradictions that some

people may find usefull as I did when I heard them for the first time.

In our western society we have being trained to eat meat without

thinking about it.

Nisargadatta, that used to eat meat occasionally, saw that as a

weakness he wasn't going to work on.

 

Thanks Richard anyway for the dialogue, proves that you are a flexible

person.

 

Wishing you all the best,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Dear Richard

 

right you are - certainly plants do react - when reading first time this incredible book decades ago it shook me...

of course we shall treat every"thing" with RESPECT as everything is GD

and of course we should always try to be as broadminded as possible...

 

in His Grace

 

michael

 

 

 

-

upadesa

Tuesday, July 22, 2008 4:19 AM

Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu

 

 

"Richard Clarke" <richard wrote:>> Dear Mouna,> > Small point: I think reaction and fear are not just limited to> animals. I remember from Hal Putoff's (maybe spelling is wrong)> 'Secret Life of Plants' book, reporting experimentation with plant> done at Stanforn University, reports of excited galvanometer readings> from plants when they were under stress, or approached by particular> people. So it seems to me that even plants have 'feelings' and become> afraid. I am not trying to 'justify' my diet by saying this, but am> saying that perhaps things are different than we think. What then? > Dear Richard,Thanks for such an honest and clear reply.These matters are always subject to extremism, and we many timesforget ourselves in such debates.My position is that if we are "aware" and can avoided, why not? Forexample, I had a big discussion with a friend of mine because she wastelling me that the Dalai Lama is not vegetarian, and so "how could hebe speaking of compassion!. She could not accept the fact that hishealth needs (being a tibetan and according to his doctors) a specialkind of animal fat to be kept a healthy body. So... what is moreimportant, a yak or the Dalai Lama, and who decides? Evidently, all these desitions are personal, under the illusion thatwe are the one dictating our choices.I think common sense has to dictate our actions.As you may know, besides the exceptional cases, meat consumption isnot necessary for a normal living, specially in India. So we could saythat it is a luxury, we could avoid it.Now, we couldn't all live like jains, picking fruits that already fellfrom trees, couldn't we? So the plant suffering issue is not reallyone. Besides the fact that those experiments may only show a chemicalreaction, not the actual consciousness of the plant experiencing painor suffering. It is quite different with animals with a nervoussystem, as I told you before, you just have to look into their eyesnext time one attends a slaughter, then we can speak.The best analogy I heard related to this topic is, since we are allOne, and I Am Brahman, The Self, etc... etc.. why, when hungry, youjust don't snatch a piece of flesh from your body? or from your wife's body? You may say: "Well, that's different"...In which sense this is different?, if you have the understanding thatwe are all One it SHOULD be the same, right?Anyhow, the whole point was to point out some contradictions that somepeople may find usefull as I did when I heard them for the first time. In our western society we have being trained to eat meat withoutthinking about it.Nisargadatta, that used to eat meat occasionally, saw that as aweakness he wasn't going to work on. Thanks Richard anyway for the dialogue, proves that you are a flexibleperson.Wishing you all the best,Mouna

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The Secret Life of Plants

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Jump to: navigation, search

 

 

 

The Secret Life of Plants

 

The Secret Life of Plants cover

 

Author

Peter Tompkins, Christopher Bird

 

Publisher

Harper & Row

 

Publication date

1973

 

ISBN

ISBN 0-06-091587-0

Published in 1973, The Secret Life of Plants was written by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird. It is described as "A fascinating account of the physical, emotional, and spiritual relations between plants and man."

Essentially, the subject of the book is the idea that plants may be sentient, despite their lack of a nervous system and a brain. This sentience is observed primarily through changes in the plant's conductivity, as through a polygraph, as pioneered by Cleve Backster. The book also contains a summary of Goethe's theory of plant metamorphosis.

With that being said, this book is about much more than just plants, and delves quite deeply into such topics as the aura, psychophysics, orgone, radionics, kirlian photography, magnetism / magnetotropism, bioelectrics, dowsing, and the history of science.

It was the basis for the 1979 documentary of the same name.

 

[edit] See also

 

The Secret Life of Plants - the film based on the book Plant perception (paranormal) Jagdish Chandra Bose#Plant research

 

 

 

 

 

 

This article about a science book is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants"

 

Categories: Fringe science | Orgone energy | 1973 books | American non-fiction books | Botany books | Science book stubs

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

>

> My position is that if we are " aware " and can avoided, why not? For

> example, I had a big discussion with a friend of mine because she was

> telling me that the Dalai Lama is not vegetarian, and so " how could he

> be speaking of compassion!. She could not accept the fact that his

> health needs (being a tibetan and according to his doctors) a special

> kind of animal fat to be kept a healthy body. So... what is more

> important, a yak or the Dalai Lama, and who decides?

 

Dear Mouna-ji:

 

Respectfully, there is no comparison between Sri Ramana and the Dalai

Lama. Although Dalai Lama and Sri Ramana are products of their

cultures, in the eyes of the devotees, Sri Ramana has no equals.

 

Suppose a doctor had told Sri Ramana that he would have to start

eating chicken or lamb or yak to maintain his health. We can all

predict Sri Ramana's response.

 

I am not making a judgment here on right or wrong of eating meat but

simply pointing out that Sri Ramana was very firm on certain

principles and would not bend under any circumstances. This is borne

out time after time.

 

The sage of Arunachala viewed the life in animals as just as sacred as

human beings. Same life, Same Self. Sri Ramana said that the cow

Lakshmi attained Mukti.

 

" All beings wish to be happy " . That includes animals.

 

 

Namaste and love to all

 

Yours in Bhagavan

Harsha