Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. Werner > > No longer is it scorned. > > The desire to escape its limitations evaporates. > > Life watches itself through the eyes of a conceptual construct..... > and Awareness reclines in the simplicity of being. > > > > toombaru > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > Werner The self cannot conceive of its own absence. There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. Hell of a problem eh? toombaru > > > > > > No longer is it scorned. > > > > The desire to escape its limitations evaporates. > > > > Life watches itself through the eyes of a conceptual construct..... > > and Awareness reclines in the simplicity of being. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > Werner > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > toombaru > We are movement, all is movement, truth itself, moves. Yet we want to feel the immutable. Wanting the impossible will keep us going looking for rest, like beating a drum to look for silence. To savor my absence is my pressing ever present wish. Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > Werner > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > toombaru > Toomb, You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. Werner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > We are movement, all is movement, > truth itself, moves. > Yet we want to feel the immutable. > Wanting the impossible will keep > us going looking for rest, like > beating a drum to look for silence. > > To savor my absence is my pressing > ever present wish. > > Pete > .......an eye......imagining the quiescence of blindness.......... toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > Toomb, > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > Werner > Yes. When that understanding percolates down through the dream........ something unspeakable happens. I imagine that it is the next step in the evolution of awareness. .......but that is probably wrong. :-) toombaru toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > Werner > > > > > > Yes. > > When that understanding percolates down through the dream........ > something unspeakable happens. > > I imagine that it is the next step in the evolution of awareness. > > ......but that is probably wrong. > > :-) > > toombaru > Awareness or consciousness is not the key. Nis has called consciousness a fever, a disease. The key is the realization of one's own non-existence which Nis has called as never to be born. The condioned self will go on as ever. Have you ever watched videos of Nis talking ? How he loudly lamented and agitatedly waving with his arms and with fierce eyes. That was not the proper appearance of a emotionless and selfless sage. There is the report of a lady waiting in a room for having a talk with Ramana. Suddenly Ramana rushed in, loudly and angrily scolding without realzing the lady's presence. The woman interrupted him and asked him what he is so angry about and Ramana looked at her her astonished and with bewilderment and replied. " Who is angry ? There is no one here " . Werner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 > > > > > >W: Awareness or consciousness is not the key. Nis has called consciousness a fever, a disease. > > The key is the realization of one's own non-existence which Nis has called as never to be born. > > The condioned self will go on as ever. Have you ever watched videos of Nis talking ? How he loudly lamented and agitatedly waving with his arms and with fierce eyes. That was not the proper appearance of a emotionless and selfless sage. > > > > There is the report of a lady waiting in a room for having a talk with Ramana. Suddenly Ramana rushed in, loudly and angrily scolding without realzing the lady's presence. > > The woman interrupted him and asked him what he is so angry about and Ramana looked at her her astonished and with bewilderment and replied. " Who is angry ? There is no one here " . > > Werner P: Very good, Werner! Was Ramana unaware that self is like lightening? It flashes, and it's gone. Of course, is not there in the sky available for research, but neither can we say it did not strike the cow that now is dead on the grass. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > When that understanding percolates down through the dream........ > > something unspeakable happens. > > > > I imagine that it is the next step in the evolution of awareness. > > > > ......but that is probably wrong. > > > > :-) > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Awareness or consciousness is not the key. Nis has called consciousness a fever, a disease. > > The key is the realization of one's own non-existence which Nis has called as never to be born. > > The condioned self will go on as ever. Have you ever watched videos of Nis talking ? How he loudly lamented and agitatedly waving with his arms and with fierce eyes. That was not the proper appearance of a emotionless and selfless sage. > > > > There is the report of a lady waiting in a room for having a talk with Ramana. Suddenly Ramana rushed in, loudly and angrily scolding without realzing the lady's presence. > > The woman interrupted him and asked him what he is so angry about and Ramana looked at her her astonished and with bewilderment and replied. " Who is angry ? There is no one here " . > > Werner > Yes......I use that about once a week in discussions with my wife. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > When that understanding percolates down through the dream........ > > > something unspeakable happens. > > > > > > I imagine that it is the next step in the evolution of awareness. > > > > > > ......but that is probably wrong. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness or consciousness is not the key. Nis has called consciousness a fever, a disease. > > > > The key is the realization of one's own non-existence which Nis has called as never to be born. > > > > The condioned self will go on as ever. Have you ever watched videos of Nis talking ? How he loudly lamented and agitatedly waving with his arms and with fierce eyes. That was not the proper appearance of a emotionless and selfless sage. > > > > > > > > There is the report of a lady waiting in a room for having a talk with Ramana. Suddenly Ramana rushed in, loudly and angrily scolding without realzing the lady's presence. > > > > The woman interrupted him and asked him what he is so angry about and Ramana looked at her her astonished and with bewilderment and replied. " Who is angry ? There is no one here " . > > > > Werner > > > > > Yes......I use that about once a week in discussions with my wife. > > Happy you, just once a week. LOL, Werner > > > toombaru > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > > > > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > > > > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > > > > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > > > > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > When that understanding percolates down through the dream........ > > > > something unspeakable happens. > > > > > > > > I imagine that it is the next step in the evolution of awareness. > > > > > > > > ......but that is probably wrong. > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness or consciousness is not the key. Nis has called consciousness a fever, a disease. > > > > > > The key is the realization of one's own non-existence which Nis has called as never to be born. > > > > > > The condioned self will go on as ever. Have you ever watched videos of Nis talking ? How he loudly lamented and agitatedly waving with his arms and with fierce eyes. That was not the proper appearance of a emotionless and selfless sage. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is the report of a lady waiting in a room for having a talk with Ramana. Suddenly Ramana rushed in, loudly and angrily scolding without realzing the lady's presence. > > > > > > The woman interrupted him and asked him what he is so angry about and Ramana looked at her her astonished and with bewilderment and replied. " Who is angry ? There is no one here " . > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > Yes......I use that about once a week in discussions with my wife. > > > > > > > Happy you, just once a week. > > LOL, > > Werner U2 are so adorable (sometimes). ;-) ~A > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > The woman interrupted him and asked him what he is so angry about and Ramana looked at her her astonished and with bewilderment and replied. " Who is angry ? There is no one here " . > > > > Werner > > > > > Yes......I use that about once a week in discussions with my wife. > > > > > toombaru And, of course, she replies -- " Well, who is to lie down with you and keep you company tonight? There's no one here. " (hehehe). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > Toomb, > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > Werner > there is self and Self there is self because of Self there is Self because of self .... self and world are One .... self and/incl. world are constantly in move .... Self isn't in move .... self and worlds are coming and going .... Self isn't coming and going ... Awareness is melting self and Self to One emptyness, nothingness .... such emptyness and nothingness Alone is real .... worlds and selfs are nothing but fictions .... coming and going Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > Werner > > > > > there is self and Self > > there is self because of Self > > there is Self because of self > > ... > > self and world are One > > ... > > self and/incl. world are constantly in move > > ... > > Self isn't in move > > ... > > self and worlds are coming and going > > ... > > Self isn't coming and going > > .. > > Awareness is melting self and Self to One emptyness, nothingness > > ... > > such emptyness and nothingness Alone is real > > ... > > worlds and selfs are nothing but fictions > > ... > > coming and going > > > > Marc > There is no self......big or little. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > there is self and Self > > > > there is self because of Self > > > > there is Self because of self > > > > ... > > > > self and world are One > > > > ... > > > > self and/incl. world are constantly in move > > > > ... > > > > Self isn't in move > > > > ... > > > > self and worlds are coming and going > > > > ... > > > > Self isn't coming and going > > > > .. > > > > Awareness is melting self and Self to One emptyness, nothingness > > > > ... > > > > such emptyness and nothingness Alone is real > > > > ... > > > > worlds and selfs are nothing but fictions > > > > ... > > > > coming and going > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > There is no self......big or little. > > > toombaru > There is awareness that somehow got embodied. Sometimes it feels vast, sometimes it feels insignificant. ~A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > There is awareness that somehow got embodied. Sometimes it > feels vast, sometimes it feels insignificant. > > ~A A lot of people seem to talk about " embodied awareness " or " embodied nondual awareness " ... Awareness isn't embodied, nor is it disembodied. One is aware of the body and bodily feelings. Whatever one is aware of, one is aware of. Whatever one is aware of, is seemingly real at the time. It's real enough to be aware of, whatever it is. At the exact moment of being aware, immediacy, what is one aware of? Without involving memory and time? What is this? It certainly can't be put into the categories of " embodied " or something else, like " disembodied. " The body is a construction involving memory and time. So are feelings and thoughts. What is this? - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > There is awareness that somehow got embodied. Sometimes it > > feels vast, sometimes it feels insignificant. > > > > ~A > > A lot of people seem to talk about " embodied awareness " or " embodied nondual awareness " ... > > Awareness isn't embodied, nor is it disembodied. > > One is aware of the body and bodily feelings. > > Whatever one is aware of, one is aware of. > > Whatever one is aware of, is seemingly real at the time. > > It's real enough to be aware of, whatever it is. > > At the exact moment of being aware, immediacy, what is one aware of? > > Without involving memory and time? > > What is this? > > It certainly can't be put into the categories of " embodied " or something else, like " disembodied. " > > The body is a construction involving memory and time. So are feelings and thoughts. > > What is this? > > > - D - > I am is awareness embodied. If you find fault with or need to add another description so be it. It is *yours* to do so. I choose not to mince words, Dan. ~A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > I am is awareness embodied. > > If you find fault with or need to add another description so be it. > > It is *yours* to do so. > > I choose not to mince words, Dan. > > > ~A I am merely providing as clear a description as possible. There is no separable " I " and " you " involved in what is being described. Make of it what you will. Make mince meat of it, if you like. I suppose that the mincing happens, although there is no " you " choosing it. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 > I am is awareness embodied. > > If you find fault with or need to add another description so be it. > > It is *yours* to do so. > > I choose not to mince words, Dan. > > > ~A Lets look at it. There is embodyment - as I see it. Or we could say - a body of perceptions was born. Or...consciousness was born. Or a world was born. Where is the I am? Is it not just focusing at, identifying with the body? -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > There is awareness that somehow got embodied. Sometimes it > > feels vast, sometimes it feels insignificant. > > > > ~A > > A lot of people seem to talk about " embodied awareness " or " embodied nondual awareness " ... > > Awareness isn't embodied, nor is it disembodied. > > One is aware of the body and bodily feelings. True -- the body appears 'in' awareness, directly/experientially speaking. Awareness does not appear inside a body. There is no direct, 'experiential' case of awareness appearing inside a body, or as a body. This can only be conceptualized, thought about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 3, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > I am is awareness embodied. > > > > If you find fault with or need to add another description so be it. > > > > It is *yours* to do so. > > > > I choose not to mince words, Dan. > > > > > > ~A > > Lets look at it. There is embodyment - as I see it. Or we could say - a body > of perceptions was born. Or...consciousness was born. Or a world was born. > Where is the I am? Is it not just focusing at, identifying with the body? > -geo- The objective view: " I am born into the world, and die out of the world " . The non-objective view: " The world appears around me (is born), and then disappears from around me (dies) " . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 3, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > I am is awareness embodied. > > > > > > If you find fault with or need to add another description so be it. > > > > > > It is *yours* to do so. > > > > > > I choose not to mince words, Dan. > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > Lets look at it. There is embodyment - as I see it. Or we could say - a body > > of perceptions was born. Or...consciousness was born. Or a world was born. > > Where is the I am? Is it not just focusing at, identifying with the body? > > -geo- > > The objective view: " I am born into the world, and die out of the world " . > > The non-objective view: " The world appears around me (is born), and then disappears from around me (dies) " . The world and the one to which it appears, is the same appearing. When nothing is appearing, there is no one there. So, does appearing ever really happen? This question cannot be answered verbally. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 3, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: snipping happened.. > > So, does appearing ever really happen? > > This question cannot be answered verbally. > > > - D - > ......these words just appeared from nowhere.... ~A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 3, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > there is self and Self > > > > there is self because of Self > > > > there is Self because of self > > > > ... > > > > self and world are One > > > > ... > > > > self and/incl. world are constantly in move > > > > ... > > > > Self isn't in move > > > > ... > > > > self and worlds are coming and going > > > > ... > > > > Self isn't coming and going > > > > .. > > > > Awareness is melting self and Self to One emptyness, nothingness > > > > ... > > > > such emptyness and nothingness Alone is real > > > > ... > > > > worlds and selfs are nothing but fictions > > > > ... > > > > coming and going > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > There is no self......big or little. > > > toombaru > Yes, Toomb, there is no self, neiter big or litte, because the self is you. What is called the big Self is just another name for the void. Werner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 3, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the self is seen as a temporary manifestation......as a highly evolved conceptual apparatus......it takes on a most radiant hue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot see the self as a conceptual apparatus simply because it is no conceptual apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > > > The self is a bundle of conditioned reflexes, of likes and dislikes, of the influences of your personal past, your family, teachers, friends and all your relationships, etc. It is all the associations from your personal history still influencing and coloring your presence. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it needs til you finally grasp that the self is no concept. The self is you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The self cannot conceive of its own absence. > > > > > > > > > > There is another perspective through which the world is experienced.....but it is not confined to the subject-object dichotomy....and cannot be captured by the concepts that are themselves the very cause of the apparent separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell of a problem eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toomb, > > > > > > > > You are the self and you cannot escape yourself simply because you are that. > > > > > > > > All those philosophies, concepts, ideas and mental tricks won't help to escape yourself because the escaper is that he wants to escape from, the escaper is the escaped from. > > > > > > > > Any idea, concept or philosophy one hopes to losen the grip of the self with is just further escapes. > > > > > > > > Facing onself as one is without any escape is what the teaching of Nis is about. Ok, it is not that obvious and direct as UG's but it is. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is self and Self > > > > > > there is self because of Self > > > > > > there is Self because of self > > > > > > ... > > > > > > self and world are One > > > > > > ... > > > > > > self and/incl. world are constantly in move > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Self isn't in move > > > > > > ... > > > > > > self and worlds are coming and going > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Self isn't coming and going > > > > > > .. > > > > > > Awareness is melting self and Self to One emptyness, nothingness > > > > > > ... > > > > > > such emptyness and nothingness Alone is real > > > > > > ... > > > > > > worlds and selfs are nothing but fictions > > > > > > ... > > > > > > coming and going > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > There is no self......big or little. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Yes, Toomb, > > there is no self, neiter big or litte, because the self is you. What is called the big Self is just another name for the void. > > Werner > Perhaps we could call it " voidelf " . :-) toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
