Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > I don't base my life on anything related to Jesus...just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a current first century Roman historian who mentions Jesus. > And its widely accepted as a fraud. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > Douglas, > > > > Citations, citations, all second hand and hear say. But there is no single true first hand report of someone who met Jesus. > > > > Btw, Toomb already mentioned Josephus. > > > > Werner > > > I couldn't care less about Jesus or Christianity unless they encroach upon my freedom. > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life time......it affects you. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > That actually isn't true at all...but as I said you are a research illiterate full of your own circumnambulatory crap....> > > > > > ANCIENT REFERENCES TO JESUS > > > Other Sources > > Christians make much of the few non-Christian references to Jesus. As you shall see below, none of these sources are sufficient evidence to prove that there was an historical Jesus; viz., historical enough to overturn the speculation of some scholars that the legend was seeded by an Essene teacher executed around 100 BC. As I have shown in History of Christ, [put link here] the silence of Paul in his Epistles is prima facie evidence for the Gospels being too unreliable to be considered a source for the life or for the teachings of Jesus. The Pagan sources are no help to the Christians. > > · Flavius Josephus - c90CE > > · Suetonius - c120CE > > · Tactitus - 110CE > > · Pliny - c110CE > > · Thallus - cited in c300CE > > · Talmud - 200-500CE > > · 'Acts of Pilate' > > The Josephus passage is among the most celebrated as proving that Jesus existed: > > " Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. " (Antiquities XVIII 63f) > > > At first glance, this appears to be a very good source for the historical existence of Jesus. However, Josephus was a Jewish priest of high position and a general in the revolt against Rome. Given that in his long history of the Jews, there is no indication (other than this passage) that he was anything but an orthodox Jewish priest. And being such there is no way that he would have written such an account of one whom he would in no ways have considered the long awaited for Messiah of the Jews, a Messiah who would reestablish the Jewish state. The conflict between this passage and the rest of the book is strong evidence for the conclusion that the passage was an interpolation by a Christian scribea common practice. Futhermore, up until the 4th Century there are no mentions of Josephus having written about Jesus in this way. None of the Christian Church Fathers mentioned Josephus as having written about Jesus, and they specifically addressed in their writing the topic of Pagan sources on the life of Jesus. Justin Martyr and Origen, among others undoubtedly were familiar with Josephus history and would have been glad to use it to answer Pagan and Jewish critics. They did not, however, no mention of it at all. Origen actually said that Josephus did not acknowledge Jesus. The reasonable conclusion is that the passage is an interpolation done after the 4th century. > > Suetonius wrote: > > " Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome " . Life of Claudius (XXv.4) > > > Who was Chrestus, since the term was not Latin for Christians? First, Suetonius spelt " Christians " correctly later in his book. 'Chrestus' is the correct Latin form of an actual Greek name. Perhaps Chrestus was a Jewish fanatic whose instigations got them expelled from Rome at about 49CE. > > Tactitus wrote that: > > " Consequently ... Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations. Called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberias at the hands of the Procurator Pontius Pilatus, and a deadly superstition, thus checked for a moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but also in the City. " Annals (XV.44.2-8) > > > > This passage it has been noted is informing his Roman audience about what was commonly said of Jesus. There is no indication that this passage is the product of Tacitus research in the death of Jesus. His silence on the topic of the Messiah indicates that if this passage is genuine, that Tacitus did not, nor his audience, believe Jesus to be the Jehovahs profit. The section is about the depravity of Nero. This particular piece is not quoted before the 15th Century, and when it was quoted, there was supposed to be only one copy of the 'Annals' in the world, made in the eighth century (600 years after Tacitus' death). Further evidence of an interpolation is that Tacitus would not have refered to Pilate as a Procurator, when he was a Prefect. > > Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan saying: > > " They also declared that the sum total of their guilt or error amounted to no more than this: that they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately among themselves in honour of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery, and adultery ... " > > > He was asking Trajan to advise him what action to take against Christians living in Asia Minor. He proves that there were Christians there, but not that Jesus ever existed. > > Thallus is said to have written that Jesus' death was accompanied by earthquake and darkness. His original work has been lost and it was cited only in Julius Africanus' work in the third century. This is the only reference to unusual meterological events occuring after the death of Jesus outside the New Testament, which is strange as such things were routinely recorded. It is impossible to determine whether Thallus actually wrote this, or that it was an interpolation. > > The Talmud says Jesus was the illegitemate son of a Roman soldier called Pandera (or Pandira) who worked magic. However, most of that material derives from 200-500CE and is the Jewish reaction to the spread of Christianity. It is not a contemporary reference but a reaction to a movement. There are several other like passage, all of them equally unflattering. (For anti-Christian parts of the Talmud, including those referring to Jesus, refuted, please see http://crnews.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aasi/aasi0151.htm) > > Many Christians also make reference to the " Acts of Pilate " which Justin Martyr said was Pilate's report to Rome of the crucifixion of Jesus. Several other early church writers also referred to this, including Euseubius, who said there was a forged copy of that report circulating in his day. At the present time, the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus claims to have this report within it, and there is also another report. The second report, called " The letter of Pontius Pilate which he wrote to the Roman Emperor, concerning our Lord Jesus Christ. is thought by most historians to have been written in the fifth century. The Gospel of Nicodemus is thought to have been written c150-200 which leaves a small possibility that it has a copy of the report of Pilate in it, but the gospel is not accepted by most Christians as being authentic, and most historians doubt that it has the report of Pilate either. > > There are some other historical sources, but these are the main (and earliest) ones, so I will not cover them. There is a possibility that Jesus did exist, as vouchsafed by the historical evidence, but the practise of the Christian church in destroying records of Jesus (at one time, anyone attempting to preserve writings which were hostile to him was subject to the death penalty) and of falsifying various others (such as Josephus) has paradoxically made it unlikely we will ever be able to say with certainty that Jesus existed. > > > > > > Enter supporting content here > Namaste, Probably the only references that indicate some existence are the Koran, which could be base on previous info, and the writing in the records of the Jagganath Temple in India which indicate he stayed there, or in the previous temple of the same name...........Tony Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life > time......it affects you. > > > > > toombaru And... so what's there to do about it, exactly? Why does this issue keep coming up for Toom, that of God and religion and Jesus? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Snipped! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna, > > > > > > > > Most Christians hear everything they know about Jesus in Sunday school. > > > > > > > > Read the entire story. > > > > > > > > He is an abomination. > > > > > > > > > According to who? > > > > > > Most Christians don't practice Christianity. > > > > > > Allegedly, he talked about two Commandments, and they both had to intrinsically connected to Love. You know... universal love. > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet he tells us that he is returning with a big sword to condemn non-believers to eternal damnation. > > > > > > Go figure. > > > > > > :-0 > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Well, it's like this toombuster, have you changed your mind in the last ohh... 50 years? > > If Christ were to return, might he not have thought THAT thought through to its logical conclusion? Remember, he was the best > history had to offer at that time...and what did the poor man know > except what he learned at the feet of his *gurus* until he decided > to take matters into his own hands. > > Besides, Christ returns <in> each and every one of us. Have you had > THAT experience? Quite cool, actually. > > > ~A " Unless you become as a little child, you will not see the kingdom of heaven. " " The kingdom of heaven is within you. " " Let thine eye be single, and thy whole body fills with light. " Be as a child, no preconceptions or assumptions. This is a matter of direct seeing, not believing. Understand from one's own being, not from outside things. Be single in awareness, in seeing, in being. One's body is expansive, open, includes the universe. If you leave this out, you don't have " the whole story. " - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > toombaru No, on direct seeing. The story is given for one to see through. Of, if you don't like it, use some other story, or use no story. The story isn't about living your life according to its information, it's about living according to direct seeing. Jesus of the story never wrote down his teachings, and liked to teach in parables. One could thereby infer that for the Jesus of the story, the direct transmission of his awareness was what mattered, and providing written accounts of what he taught wasn't what his " mission " was about. He specifically spoke against trying to live your life according to rigid rules and laws. He healed on the Sabbath. He committed violence in the temple. In the story of Jesus, did he walk around with a Bible? Did he repeat stories from the Hebrew Bible (which he knew well) over and over, and insist on a literal interpretation? To the contrary, Jesus showed he knew the Bible thoroughly and respected it, said he came to fulfill it - but taught spontaneously, spoke directly, and insisted that trying to follow the Hebrew Bible as a recipe book was counterproductive. So, Toom, you're not addressing the whole story. Not hardly. You're addressing the part of the story provided by people who are literal believers and believers in literalism. It's obvious that such people can cause a lot of trouble. This is true of rigid, literal believers in any religion, or of any political party, or of any hierarchical structure. It doesn't matter at all whether a literal person named Jesus can be verified or not. The book clearly says that truth is a matter of direct revelation, of dying and being reborn, of seeing as a child, of seeing without division. - Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > I don't base my life on anything related to Jesus...just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a current first century Roman historian who mentions Jesus. Yes, Josephus is often cited. There is one other historian who documented him very briefly, I forget his name, but recall hearing this on a PBS special. But that certainly doesn't seem to be very important. Clearly, on a list such as this, one is addressing what it is to live " presently, " not from or of the past. So, what would seem worth noting is that Jesus, in the story of the Bible, appears to be teaching nonduality in a direct, human, face-to-face manner. His focus on being present is clear in the story about the lilies of the field. His focus on indivisible awareness seems clear in the story of the pearl of great price. His focus on not living from the past seems clear in the quote: let the dead bury their dead. My take on this story is about the opposite of Toom's. For me, it fits right in with the story of Nisargadatta's teaching, and the story of Zen teaching. Nisargadatta said that the truth comes unexpectedly and without preparation. Jesus said I come as a thief in the night. The parallels seem quite clear to me. I've found similar teachings in the Hebrew qabala, which was taught in secret prior to Jesus. I suspect this is what Jesus meant when he said I have not come to overthrow the scripture but to fulfill it. It seems to me that he wanted to openly display what had been hidden, the kernel of truth hidden in the Jewish religion. What is interesting is when you see these threads from different times, different cultures, and they are clearly of the same cloth. One understands this is truly timeless, that it is direct seeing, that it breaks through in different situations, different times and places. Being nonlocal and atemporal, how could it be otherwise? It is the open secret. Smiles, - Dan - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > I don't base my life on anything related to Jesus...just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a current first century Roman historian who mentions Jesus. > > > > > And its widely accepted as a fraud. > > > > toombaru Unless you have a time machine, you will never know. And so what? Life moves on. Does the life energy move from the present and as the present, or does it come from the past? It seems to me that you are very concerned with verification of the past, and with people who live according to rigid beliefs. But " let the dead bury their dead, " Toom. Move on. In your movin' on jeans ... - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:13 PM Re: Kyrie Eleison Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " > <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you > > > > > > say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And > > > > > > Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e > > > > > > F. > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief > > > > > > that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied > > > > > anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the > > > > > verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much > > > > > at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is > > > > > profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What > > > > > is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about > > > > > Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus > > > during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites > > Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > toombaru No, on direct seeing. The story is given for one to see through. Of, if you don't like it, use some other story, or use no story. The story isn't about living your life according to its information, it's about living according to direct seeing. Jesus of the story never wrote down his teachings, and liked to teach in parables. One could thereby infer that for the Jesus of the story, the direct transmission of his awareness was what mattered, and providing written accounts of what he taught wasn't what his " mission " was about. He specifically spoke against trying to live your life according to rigid rules and laws. He healed on the Sabbath. He committed violence in the temple. In the story of Jesus, did he walk around with a Bible? Did he repeat stories from the Hebrew Bible (which he knew well) over and over, and insist on a literal interpretation? To the contrary, Jesus showed he knew the Bible thoroughly and respected it, said he came to fulfill it - but taught spontaneously, spoke directly, and insisted that trying to follow the Hebrew Bible as a recipe book was counterproductive. So, Toom, you're not addressing the whole story. Not hardly. You're addressing the part of the story provided by people who are literal believers and believers in literalism. It's obvious that such people can cause a lot of trouble. This is true of rigid, literal believers in any religion, or of any political party, or of any hierarchical structure. It doesn't matter at all whether a literal person named Jesus can be verified or not. The book clearly says that truth is a matter of direct revelation, of dying and being reborn, of seeing as a child, of seeing without division. - Dan Me and the father are one. -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas, > > > > > > Citations, citations, all second hand and hear say. But there is no single true first hand report of someone who met Jesus. > > > > > > Btw, Toomb already mentioned Josephus. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > I couldn't care less about Jesus or Christianity unless they encroach upon my freedom. > > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life > time......it affects you. > > > > > toombaru What other people believe will affect you, if you believe that you exist as a self among others, and as someone being affected by beliefs. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " fewtch " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life > > time......it affects you. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > And... so what's there to do about it, exactly? Why does this issue keep coming up for Toom, that of God and religion and Jesus? It appears to be a personal stuck point of some kind for him. Maybe he's working it out through posting on this list. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " fewtch " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life > > > time......it affects you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > And... so what's there to do about it, exactly? Why does this issue keep coming up for Toom, that of God and religion and Jesus? > > > It appears to be a personal stuck point of some kind for him. > > Maybe he's working it out through posting on this list. > > > - D - There's a memory of it being a stuck-point 'here', too. " God out there " seems to be quite the conceptual anchor for " me, in here " . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:32 PM Re: Kyrie Eleison Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " > <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " > > > <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what > > > > > > > > you say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. > > > > > > > > And Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the > > > > > > > > be l I e F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a > > > > > > > > belief that is validated moment-to-moment with every > > > > > > > > individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further > > > > > > > > it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied > > > > > > > anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the > > > > > > > verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say > > > > > > > much at all...directly but what little can be attributed to > > > > > > > him is profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate > > > > > > > asked him 'What is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would > > > > > > > compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns > > > > > > > about Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus > > > > > during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites > > > > Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas, > > > > > > Citations, citations, all second hand and hear say. But there is no > > > single true first hand report of someone who met Jesus. > > > > > > Btw, Toomb already mentioned Josephus. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > I couldn't care less about Jesus or Christianity unless they encroach > > upon my freedom. > > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life > time......it affects you. > > > > > toombaru My country is probably more catholic then the USA. There is a church in every corner. Why would that affect me? Except on sunday mornings when I have to sometimes-not-so-politely send the man/women with the bible away...:> -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 9, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Kyrie Eleison > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " > > <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you > > > > > > > say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. And > > > > > > > Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I e > > > > > > > F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a belief > > > > > > > that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied > > > > > > anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the > > > > > > verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say much > > > > > > at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is > > > > > > profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him 'What > > > > > > is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns about > > > > > > Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus > > > > during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites > > > Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > No, on direct seeing. > > The story is given for one to see through. > > Of, if you don't like it, use some other story, or use no story. > > The story isn't about living your life according to its information, it's > about living according to direct seeing. > > Jesus of the story never wrote down his teachings, and liked to teach in > parables. > > One could thereby infer that for the Jesus of the story, the direct > transmission of his awareness was what mattered, and providing written > accounts of what he taught wasn't what his " mission " was about. > > He specifically spoke against trying to live your life according to rigid > rules and laws. He healed on the Sabbath. He committed violence in the > temple. > > In the story of Jesus, did he walk around with a Bible? > > Did he repeat stories from the Hebrew Bible (which he knew well) over and > over, and insist on a literal interpretation? > > To the contrary, Jesus showed he knew the Bible thoroughly and respected it, > said he came to fulfill it - but taught spontaneously, spoke directly, and > insisted that trying to follow the Hebrew Bible as a recipe book was > counterproductive. > > So, Toom, you're not addressing the whole story. > > Not hardly. > > You're addressing the part of the story provided by people who are literal > believers and believers in literalism. It's obvious that such people can > cause a lot of trouble. This is true of rigid, literal believers in any > religion, or of any political party, or of any hierarchical structure. > > It doesn't matter at all whether a literal person named Jesus can be > verified or not. > > The book clearly says that truth is a matter of direct revelation, of dying > and being reborn, of seeing as a child, of seeing without division. > > - Dan > > Me and the father are one. > -geo- The word " father, " in Hebrew, is aleph bet aleph. Aleph signifies the original primordial life energy. Bet signifies a house, container, or dwelling. So, the use of the word " father " can denote, by virtue of the letter-numbers involved, a movement of original energy to make the appearance of/as a container or dwelling (i.e., the body-mind), and return to the original energy. Was there symbolic meaning, for those who could hear? I have no idea, but this thought occurred to me one day when reading a line where Jesus said, " Abba " ... it would make sense then when he said, Father, into thy hand I commend my spirit, or words to that effect. And it would make sense in the passage you cite, as well, as I am in the Abba, and the Abba is in me, as you are in me. Was the story of Jesus (like stories in the Hebrew bible) written to have a meaning that could " work " for those not ready for deep insight, but also could work to provide clues for those ready? Jesus also said, " if you tear down this temple, I will rebuild it in three days, " or something along those lines (I am going by memory, and I don't often read the Bible). This could refer to the ending of a body, and the taking up of a body. Which is what the animating energy (which is an indivisible movement) does. -- D -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 9, 2009 Nisargadatta , " fewtch " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " fewtch " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > When 80% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in their life > > > > time......it affects you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > And... so what's there to do about it, exactly? Why does this issue keep coming up for Toom, that of God and religion and Jesus? > > > > > > It appears to be a personal stuck point of some kind for him. > > > > Maybe he's working it out through posting on this list. > > > > > > - D - > > There's a memory of it being a stuck-point 'here', too. > > " God out there " seems to be quite the conceptual anchor for " me, in here " . Yes, it's a real switch when it isn't out there, and it isn't something as opposed to nothing. -- D -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 9, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 08, 2009 7:03 PM Re: Kyrie Eleison Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Kyrie Eleison > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " douglasmitch1963 " > > <douglasmitch1963@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " aoclery " <aoclery@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you believe everything you read eh?....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an old proverb that says: " Believe nothing of what you > > > > > > > say and half of what you see. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I furthered this in realizing that the lie is in the beLIEf. > > > > > > > And > > > > > > > Sarlo also noticed that the *I* is in the middle of the be l I > > > > > > > e > > > > > > > F. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However I have lived long enough to know that *I am* is a > > > > > > > belief > > > > > > > that is validated moment-to-moment with every individual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's up to each and every one of us as to how we *further it*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~A > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is they are essentially illiterate and havn't studied > > > > > > anything about Jesus or any other sage..They can only hear the > > > > > > verbal diarohea from their own mouths... > > > > > > If you study the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't say > > > > > > much > > > > > > at all...directly but what little can be attributed to him is > > > > > > profound succinct and reality.....Like when Pilate asked him > > > > > > 'What > > > > > > is Truth'? Jesus didn't answer for that would compromise it... > > > > > > > > > > > > If one studes the life of James then by inference one learns > > > > > > about > > > > > > Jesus, particularly Eisenman........Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No contemporary historian of Jesus even mentions his name. > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that odd? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Toomb, > > > > > > > > There exists neither a single Jewish nor Roman record about Jesus > > > > during the time he is supposed to have lived. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > There is a first century Roman historian named " Josephus " who cites > > > Jesus as having been convited to crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the paucity of such information......you base your life? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > No, on direct seeing. > > The story is given for one to see through. > > Of, if you don't like it, use some other story, or use no story. > > The story isn't about living your life according to its information, it's > about living according to direct seeing. > > Jesus of the story never wrote down his teachings, and liked to teach in > parables. > > One could thereby infer that for the Jesus of the story, the direct > transmission of his awareness was what mattered, and providing written > accounts of what he taught wasn't what his " mission " was about. > > He specifically spoke against trying to live your life according to rigid > rules and laws. He healed on the Sabbath. He committed violence in the > temple. > > In the story of Jesus, did he walk around with a Bible? > > Did he repeat stories from the Hebrew Bible (which he knew well) over and > over, and insist on a literal interpretation? > > To the contrary, Jesus showed he knew the Bible thoroughly and respected > it, > said he came to fulfill it - but taught spontaneously, spoke directly, and > insisted that trying to follow the Hebrew Bible as a recipe book was > counterproductive. > > So, Toom, you're not addressing the whole story. > > Not hardly. > > You're addressing the part of the story provided by people who are literal > believers and believers in literalism. It's obvious that such people can > cause a lot of trouble. This is true of rigid, literal believers in any > religion, or of any political party, or of any hierarchical structure. > > It doesn't matter at all whether a literal person named Jesus can be > verified or not. > > The book clearly says that truth is a matter of direct revelation, of > dying > and being reborn, of seeing as a child, of seeing without division. > > - Dan > > Me and the father are one. > -geo- The word " father, " in Hebrew, is aleph bet aleph. Aleph signifies the original primordial life energy. Bet signifies a house, container, or dwelling. So, the use of the word " father " can denote, by virtue of the letter-numbers involved, a movement of original energy to make the appearance of/as a container or dwelling (i.e., the body-mind), and return to the original energy. Was there symbolic meaning, for those who could hear? I have no idea, but this thought occurred to me one day when reading a line where Jesus said, " Abba " ... it would make sense then when he said, Father, into thy hand I commend my spirit, or words to that effect. And it would make sense in the passage you cite, as well, as I am in the Abba, and the Abba is in me, as you are in me. Was the story of Jesus (like stories in the Hebrew bible) written to have a meaning that could " work " for those not ready for deep insight, but also could work to provide clues for those ready? Jesus also said, " if you tear down this temple, I will rebuild it in three days, " or something along those lines (I am going by memory, and I don't often read the Bible). This could refer to the ending of a body, and the taking up of a body. Which is what the animating energy (which is an indivisible movement) does. -- D -- I read somwhere that there was a miss-translation of the words (by memory): father why did you abandoned me? (in the cross) The correct translation seems to be: father why did you bless me? -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
