Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > >

> > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > >

> > > > > Pete

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > >

> > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch a

ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's fist towards

their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the furniture, let me

ponder why the hell is there consciousness when survival is possible without

needing it ?

> > > >

> > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed for

communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > >

> > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > > >

> > >

> > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > >

> > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

reproduce.

> > >

> > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > >

> > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies its

perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few try to escape.

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> >

> > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> >

> > Can we meet that way:

> >

> > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int the

last billion years.

> >

> > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then who

is the strategist ?

>

> Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

>

Hm, James Bond ?

Werner

>

> toombaru

>

> >

> > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

> >

> > Werner

> >

>

> Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

>

> toombaru

>

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pete

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > >

> > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch a

ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's fist towards

their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the furniture, let me

ponder why the hell is there consciousness when survival is possible without

needing it ?

> > > > >

> > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed

for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > >

> > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Werner

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > >

> > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

reproduce.

> > > >

> > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > >

> > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies

its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few try to

escape.

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > >

> > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > >

> > > Can we meet that way:

> > >

> > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int

the last billion years.

> > >

> > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then

who is the strategist ?

> >

> > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

> >

>

> Hm, James Bond ?

>

> Werner

>

:-)

There is no designer.........anywhere.

Natural selection explains very well how living organisms adapt to their

changing environments.

toombaru

August 13, 2009

-

Tim G.

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote:

>

> It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

>

> I don't know what I mean by this.

>

> - D -

I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

come up fairly commonly.

I don't know why.

-tim-

Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal - very

rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

-geo-

August 13, 2009

-

toombaru2006

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > >

> > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > >

> > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > >

> > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > >

> > > > Pete

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thanks Pete,

> > >

> > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch a

> > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's fist

> > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the

> > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness when

> > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > >

> > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed

> > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > >

> > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

> > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > >

> > > Werner

> > >

> >

> > Consciousness is a survival program.

> >

> > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

> > reproduce.

> >

> > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> >

> > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies

> > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few

> > try to escape.

> >

> > toombaru

> >

>

> Still to philosophical, Toomb,

>

> Can we meet that way:

>

> Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int

> the last billion years.

>

> I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then

> who is the strategist ?

Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

toombaru

>

> We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

>

> Werner

>

Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

toombaru

Unless its all one big deal

-geo-

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> Tim G.

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> >

> > I don't know what I mean by this.

> >

> > - D -

>

> I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

> come up fairly commonly.

>

> I don't know why.

> -tim-

>

> Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal - very

> rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

> -geo-

>

A cat cannot see the world through a dogs eyes.

A person cannot see anything impersonally.

toombaru

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > >

> > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > >

> > > > > Pete

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > >

> > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch a

> > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's fist

> > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the

> > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness when

> > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > >

> > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed

> > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > >

> > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

> > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > > >

> > >

> > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > >

> > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

> > > reproduce.

> > >

> > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > >

> > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies

> > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few

> > > try to escape.

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> >

> > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> >

> > Can we meet that way:

> >

> > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int

> > the last billion years.

> >

> > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then

> > who is the strategist ?

>

> Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

>

> toombaru

>

> >

> > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

> >

> > Werner

> >

>

> Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

>

> toombaru

>

> Unless its all one big deal

> -geo-

>

The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

toombaru

August 13, 2009

-

toombaru2006

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:44 AM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> Tim G.

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> >

> > I don't know what I mean by this.

> >

> > - D -

>

> I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

> come up fairly commonly.

>

> I don't know why.

> -tim-

>

> Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal -

> very

> rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

> -geo-

>

A cat cannot see the world through a dogs eyes.

A person cannot see anything impersonally.

toombaru

A person no.

-geo-

August 13, 2009

-

toombaru2006

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > >

> > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > >

> > > > > Pete

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > >

> > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch

> > > > a

> > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's

> > > > fist

> > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the

> > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness when

> > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > >

> > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed

> > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > >

> > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

> > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > > >

> > >

> > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > >

> > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

> > > reproduce.

> > >

> > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > >

> > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies

> > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few

> > > try to escape.

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> >

> > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> >

> > Can we meet that way:

> >

> > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int

> > the last billion years.

> >

> > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then

> > who is the strategist ?

>

> Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

>

> toombaru

>

> >

> > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

> >

> > Werner

> >

>

> Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

>

> toombaru

>

> Unless its all one big deal

> -geo-

>

The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

toombaru

OK..then show me the stuff thats outohere.

-geo-

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > Tim G.

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> > >

> > > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> > >

> > > I don't know what I mean by this.

> > >

> > > - D -

> >

> > I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

> > come up fairly commonly.

> >

> > I don't know why.

> > -tim-

> >

> > Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal - very

> > rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

> > -geo-

> >

>

> A cat cannot see the world through a dogs eyes.

>

> A person cannot see anything impersonally.

>

> toombaru

>

And there is a good reason for ...

Werner

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > toombaru2006

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pete

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > >

> > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch

> > > > > a

> > > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's

> > > > > fist

> > > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the

> > > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness when

> > > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > > >

> > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed

> > > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > >

> > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

> > > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Werner

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > >

> > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

> > > > reproduce.

> > > >

> > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > >

> > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies

> > > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few

> > > > try to escape.

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > >

> > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > >

> > > Can we meet that way:

> > >

> > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int

> > > the last billion years.

> > >

> > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then

> > > who is the strategist ?

> >

> > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > >

> > > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

> > >

> > > Werner

> > >

> >

> > Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > Unless its all one big deal

> > -geo-

> >

>

> The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

>

> toombaru

>

> OK..then show me the stuff thats outohere.

> -geo-

>

Anything that doesn't have a name.

toombaru

August 13, 2009

-

toombaru2006

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:59 AM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > toombaru2006

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pete

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > >

> > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can

> > > > > catch

> > > > > a

> > > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's

> > > > > fist

> > > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at

> > > > > the

> > > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness when

> > > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > > >

> > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is

> > > > > needed

> > > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > >

> > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness.

> > > > > We

> > > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Werner

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > >

> > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

> > > > reproduce.

> > > >

> > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > >

> > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it

> > > > objectifies

> > > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a

> > > > few

> > > > try to escape.

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > >

> > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > >

> > > Can we meet that way:

> > >

> > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized

> > > int

> > > the last billion years.

> > >

> > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because

> > > then

> > > who is the strategist ?

> >

> > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's

> > beak?

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > >

> > > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

> > >

> > > Werner

> > >

> >

> > Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > Unless its all one big deal

> > -geo-

> >

>

> The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

>

> toombaru

>

> OK..then show me the stuff thats outohere.

> -geo-

>

Anything that doesn't have a name.

toombaru

I see...so anything that has no name is not here but over there? Where...in

that other universe?

-geo-

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> >

> > I don't know what I mean by this.

> >

> > - D -

>

> I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to come

up fairly commonly.

>

> I don't know why.

Because.

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " mstrdmmlbrn " <mstrdmmlbrn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> > >

> > > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> > >

> > > I don't know what I mean by this.

> > >

> > > - D -

> >

> > I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

come up fairly commonly.

> >

> > I don't know why.

> >

>

> Tell me why...

Why not?

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " mstrdmmlbrn " <mstrdmmlbrn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what I mean by this.

> > > >

> > > > - D -

> > >

> > > I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

come up fairly commonly.

> > >

> > > I don't know why.

> > >

> >

> > Tell me why...

>

> Why.

Why ask " why " ? Drink Bud Dry.

(from an old Bud Dry commercial)

Yours,

Snuggum T. Higgins,

V.P. In Charge of Nondual Advertising

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > >

> > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > >

> > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > >

> > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > >

> > > > Pete

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thanks Pete,

> > >

> > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch a

ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's fist towards

their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the furniture, let me

ponder why the hell is there consciousness when survival is possible without

needing it ?

> > >

> > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed for

communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > >

> > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We share

the world presented by consciousness.

> > >

> > > Werner

> > >

> >

> > Consciousness is a survival program.

> >

> > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

reproduce.

> >

> > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> >

> > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies its

perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few try to escape.

> >

> > toombaru

> >

>

> Still to philosophical, Toomb,

>

> Can we meet that way:

>

> Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int the

last billion years.

>

> I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then who is

the strategist ?

>

> We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun enough.

>

> Werner

>

Yes, consciousness is all about survival.

Therefore, consciousness is a repository of suffering, of trauma.

Survival involves contending with trauma.

Thus, the program evolves a controller of trauma and the experienced trauma.

Perceived separation is required by the program, along with its ability to

organize perception as time and space.

The drama of survival is understood as such, not from within the program, but

from/as that which has no existence in the program.

The program is time.

The timeless is the understanding.

Being that, it is understood.

The timeless cannot be named, because names refer to perceived things and

qualities within the program.

- D -

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pete

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can catch

a ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with one's fist towards

their head or can walk through a room without bumping at the furniture, let me

ponder why the hell is there consciousness when survival is possible without

needing it ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is needed

for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness. We

share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Werner

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > > >

> > > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive and

reproduce.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it objectifies

its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a few try to

escape.

> > > > >

> > > > > toombaru

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > > >

> > > > Can we meet that way:

> > > >

> > > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized int

the last billion years.

> > > >

> > > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because then

who is the strategist ?

> > >

> > > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's beak?

> > >

> >

> > Hm, James Bond ?

> >

> > Werner

> >

>

> :-)

>

> There is no designer.........anywhere.

>

> Natural selection explains very well how living organisms adapt to their

changing environments.

>

> toombaru

Gee, that's great.

Thanks for the explanation, Toom.

Without you, we might have to live without any explanation.

- D -

August 13, 2009

>

> Yes, consciousness is all about survival.

>

> Therefore, consciousness is a repository of suffering, of trauma.

>

> Survival involves contending with trauma.

>

> Thus, the program evolves a controller of trauma and the experienced trauma.

>

> Perceived separation is required by the program, along with its ability to

organize perception as time and space.

>

> The drama of survival is understood as such, not from within the program, but

from/as that which has no existence in the program.

>

> The program is time.

>

> The timeless is the understanding.

>

> Being that, it is understood.

>

> The timeless cannot be named, because names refer to perceived things and

qualities within the program.

>

> - D -

>

So who ya gonna call?

:-0

toombaru

August 13, 2009

-

toombaru2006

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:12 PM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:59 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > toombaru2006

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -

> > > toombaru2006

> > > Nisargadatta

> > > Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> > > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@>

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pete

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can

> > > > > > catch

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with

> > > > > > one's

> > > > > > fist

> > > > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness

> > > > > > when

> > > > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is

> > > > > > needed

> > > > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness.

> > > > > > We

> > > > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Werner

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > > >

> > > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive

> > > > > and

> > > > > reproduce.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it

> > > > > objectifies

> > > > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a

> > > > > few

> > > > > try to escape.

> > > > >

> > > > > toombaru

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > > >

> > > > Can we meet that way:

> > > >

> > > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized

> > > > int

> > > > the last billion years.

> > > >

> > > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because

> > > > then

> > > > who is the strategist ?

> > >

> > > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's

> > > beak?

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> > > >

> > > > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun

> > > > enough.

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > > >

> > >

> > > Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> > > Unless its all one big deal

> > > -geo-

> > >

> >

> > The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > OK..then show me the stuff thats outohere.

> > -geo-

> >

>

> Anything that doesn't have a name.

>

> toombaru

>

> I see...so anything that has no name is not here but over there?

> Where...in

> that other universe?

> -geo-

>

It is the naturalness of which Nisargadatta speaks.

It it the trackless space....the area outside the city.... of Jan Cox.

It is the simple, unadorned awareness into which your were born....

It is on the flip side of here and now.

toombaru

And you call that " anything that doesn't have a name " ? Anything?

-geo-

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:12 PM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > toombaru2006

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:59 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -

> > > toombaru2006

> > > Nisargadatta

> > > Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

> > > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > -

> > > > toombaru2006

> > > > Nisargadatta

> > > > Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> > > > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@>

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pete

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can

> > > > > > > catch

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with

> > > > > > > one's

> > > > > > > fist

> > > > > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping at

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness

> > > > > > > when

> > > > > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is

> > > > > > > needed

> > > > > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of consciousness.

> > > > > > > We

> > > > > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Werner

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > reproduce.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it

> > > > > > objectifies

> > > > > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which a

> > > > > > few

> > > > > > try to escape.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > toombaru

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > > > >

> > > > > Can we meet that way:

> > > > >

> > > > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack crystallized

> > > > > int

> > > > > the last billion years.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because

> > > > > then

> > > > > who is the strategist ?

> > > >

> > > > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's

> > > > beak?

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun

> > > > > enough.

> > > > >

> > > > > Werner

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > > > Unless its all one big deal

> > > > -geo-

> > > >

> > >

> > > The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> > > OK..then show me the stuff thats outohere.

> > > -geo-

> > >

> >

> > Anything that doesn't have a name.

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > I see...so anything that has no name is not here but over there?

> > Where...in

> > that other universe?

> > -geo-

> >

>

> It is the naturalness of which Nisargadatta speaks.

> It it the trackless space....the area outside the city.... of Jan Cox.

> It is the simple, unadorned awareness into which your were born....

>

> It is on the flip side of here and now.

>

> toombaru

>

> And you call that " anything that doesn't have a name " ? Anything?

> -geo-

>

Words can take you the the edge of words.

From there on.......

well..........

...............

toombaru

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> Tim G.

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> >

> > I don't know what I mean by this.

> >

> > - D -

>

> I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

> come up fairly commonly.

>

> I don't know why.

> -tim-

>

> Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal - very

> rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

> -geo-

Very rare to be timelessly aware amidst time.

Time doesn't exist, but is observed.

Time is snowing.

Particles of time are falling all around - glistening as they pass through

empty, aware, timeless space.

The selves and worlds contained in time dissolving in this vast emptiness.

- D -

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

>

> You didn't know it then, but it's

> known now that consciousness can't happen

> without the frontal lobes of the brain.

>

> This is known because there are people

> who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> between the vision centers and the front

> lobes. This people are not conscious of

> seeing, but can catch an object if one

> is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> the object they just caught, they have

> to feel it with their fingers as blind

> people do. They never bump into things,

> but do not know what kind of object they

> avoided. They just say they just felt like

> having to sidestep without knowing why.

>

> So get updated, and don't talk about

> consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> a moment to moment activity. No entities

> inhabit the brain.

>

> Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> cameras and a small computers are conscious

> when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

>

> Pete

Edg: This kind of research points to consciousness being omnipresent throughout

the body even if the ego, a mere object of consciousness, is not privy to how

the clockworks are managing to run things such that one can catch a ball that

cannot be seen. To me this is a very revealing experiment that shows that

consciousness is beyond the ego's purview, and that integrating this fact can

help an ego to " de-puff " its opinion of itself. It shows that maybe just maybe

consciousness is the " doer, " but certainly it's not the ego -- it helps the ego

to see that it is an object of consciousness -- not consciousness itself. From

that realization, one can begin to try to see if there is a difference between

consciousness and awareness -- a far more subtle distinction.

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > Tim G.

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> > >

> > > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> > >

> > > I don't know what I mean by this.

> > >

> > > - D -

> >

> > I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

> > come up fairly commonly.

> >

> > I don't know why.

> > -tim-

> >

> > Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal - very

> > rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

> > -geo-

> >

>

> A cat cannot see the world through a dogs eyes.

>

> A person cannot see anything impersonally.

>

> toombaru

A person doesn't see anything.

Never has, never will.

- D -

August 13, 2009

-

toombaru2006

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:38 PM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> toombaru2006

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:12 PM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> > -

> > toombaru2006

> > Nisargadatta

> > Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:59 AM

> > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -

> > > toombaru2006

> > > Nisargadatta

> > > Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

> > > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > -

> > > > toombaru2006

> > > > Nisargadatta

> > > > Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:56 AM

> > > > Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@>

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > > > > > > > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > > > > > > > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is known because there are people

> > > > > > > > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > > > > > > > between the vision centers and the front

> > > > > > > > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > > > > > > > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > > > > > > > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > > > > > > > the object they just caught, they have

> > > > > > > > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > > > > > > > people do. They never bump into things,

> > > > > > > > but do not know what kind of object they

> > > > > > > > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > > > > > > > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > > > > > > > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > > > > > > > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > > > > > > > inhabit the brain.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > > > > > > > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > > > > > > > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > > > > > > > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pete

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks Pete,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This strange effect that factual blind people nevertheless can

> > > > > > > catch

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > ball, move their head quickly to the side when hitting with

> > > > > > > one's

> > > > > > > fist

> > > > > > > towards their head or can walk through a room without bumping

> > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > furniture, let me ponder why the hell is there consciousness

> > > > > > > when

> > > > > > > survival is possible without needing it ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The only satisfying answer I found was that consciousness is

> > > > > > > needed

> > > > > > > for communication. Consciousness is a social function.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The world we share and commuicate is the world of

> > > > > > > consciousness.

> > > > > > > We

> > > > > > > share the world presented by consciousness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Werner

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Consciousness is a survival program.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It evolved simply because it helps the physical organism survive

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > reproduce.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is not a thing any more than sight is a thing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the human species......it evolved to the point where it

> > > > > > objectifies

> > > > > > its perceptions and thereby creates a pseudo-reality from which

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > few

> > > > > > try to escape.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > toombaru

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Still to philosophical, Toomb,

> > > > >

> > > > > Can we meet that way:

> > > > >

> > > > > Consicousness is part of the organisms's survival pack

> > > > > crystallized

> > > > > int

> > > > > the last billion years.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am hesitationg to call consciousness a survival strategy because

> > > > > then

> > > > > who is the strategist ?

> > > >

> > > > Who is the strategist behind the peacock's tail or the hummingbird's

> > > > beak?

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > We can just deal here with ideas and concepts but they are fun

> > > > > enough.

> > > > >

> > > > > Werner

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

> > > >

> > > > toombaru

> > > >

> > > > Unless its all one big deal

> > > > -geo-

> > > >

> > >

> > > The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

> > >

> > > toombaru

> > >

> > > OK..then show me the stuff thats outohere.

> > > -geo-

> > >

> >

> > Anything that doesn't have a name.

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> > I see...so anything that has no name is not here but over there?

> > Where...in

> > that other universe?

> > -geo-

> >

>

> It is the naturalness of which Nisargadatta speaks.

> It it the trackless space....the area outside the city.... of Jan Cox.

> It is the simple, unadorned awareness into which your were born....

>

> It is on the flip side of here and now.

>

> toombaru

>

> And you call that " anything that doesn't have a name " ? Anything?

> -geo-

>

Words can take you the the edge of words.

From there on.......

well..........

...............

toombaru

What? All this round trip for what then??

Roll the third one.

======

Ideas and concepts are all we can deal with.

toombaru

Unless its all one big deal

-geo-

The mind mashes all of its labels together and calls the stack " One " .

toombaru

====

-geo-

August 13, 2009

-

dan330033

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:52 PM

Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote:

>

> -

> Tim G.

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:15 AM

> Re: Consciousness for 19th Century Dummies

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It's rare to hear someone speak truth without making a claim.

> >

> > I don't know what I mean by this.

> >

> > - D -

>

> I've noticed that when talking with you, the notion of 'rarity' seems to

> come up fairly commonly.

>

> I don't know why.

> -tim-

>

> Because most of the time statements referr to a wiew that is personal -

> very

> rarely seeing is completely impersonal.

> -geo-

Very rare to be timelessly aware amidst time.

Time doesn't exist, but is observed.

Time is snowing.

Particles of time are falling all around - glistening as they pass through

empty, aware, timeless space.

The selves and worlds contained in time dissolving in this vast emptiness.

- D -

It is difficult to see time as just another thing in consciousness.

-geo-

August 13, 2009

Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> >

> > You didn't know it then, but it's

> > known now that consciousness can't happen

> > without the frontal lobes of the brain.

> >

> > This is known because there are people

> > who due to trauma have lost the wiring

> > between the vision centers and the front

> > lobes. This people are not conscious of

> > seeing, but can catch an object if one

> > is thrown to them. If asked to describe

> > the object they just caught, they have

> > to feel it with their fingers as blind

> > people do. They never bump into things,

> > but do not know what kind of object they

> > avoided. They just say they just felt like

> > having to sidestep without knowing why.

> >

> > So get updated, and don't talk about

> > consciousness as being an entity, it's just

> > a moment to moment activity. No entities

> > inhabit the brain.

> >

> > Do you think little robot cars with tiny

> > cameras and a small computers are conscious

> > when they avoid obstacles? What is consciousness

> > anyway? Anyone has a good definition?

> >

> > Pete

>

> Edg: This kind of research points to consciousness being omnipresent

throughout the body even if the ego, a mere object of consciousness, is not

privy to how the clockworks are managing to run things such that one can catch a

ball that cannot be seen. To me this is a very revealing experiment that shows

that consciousness is beyond the ego's purview, and that integrating this fact

can help an ego to " de-puff " its opinion of itself. It shows that maybe just

maybe consciousness is the " doer, " but certainly it's not the ego -- it helps

the ego to see that it is an object of consciousness -- not consciousness

itself. From that realization, one can begin to try to see if there is a

difference between consciousness and awareness -- a far more subtle distinction.

>

Consciousness imagines that if it is here......something must have made it.

It reasons that there must be something....bigger and better beyond its purview.

....and it wants to be that.

What if that weren't true?

What if you were the best that Life had to offer.

(there is no evidence that there is anything beyond who your are)

Could you take that?

toombaru

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