Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > a human being that uses a brain to think is using thought and memory > to define time as matter in motion. > > Thought and memory are also used to define (oneself or others) as a human being that uses a brain. yup. perception is circular, just like talk. there is no escape, and doesn't need to be one. who said that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > a human being that uses a brain to think is using thought and memory > to define time as matter in motion. > > > > Thought and memory are also used to define (oneself or others) as a human being that uses a brain. > > yup. > > perception is circular, just like talk. > > there is no escape, and doesn't need to be one. > > who said that? I can recall spontaneously uttering " there's no xxx, and no need for it " more than once ;-). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Dan, > > Have you read " The Ego Tunnel " ? > > > > > toombaru No. But I once watched " The Time Tunnel. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Monday, May 18, 2009 7:12 PM Re: From Bill on GR Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Monday, May 18, 2009 4:37 PM > Re: From Bill on GR > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > billrishel > > Nisargadatta > > Monday, May 18, 2009 3:55 PM > > Re: From Bill on GR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a misconception that that which has arisen in time can be > > > > cognitively isolated and analyzed in time. > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Your statement is no different from: > > > > " It is a misconception that that which has arisen in time can be > > > > analyzed. " > > > > ['cognitively' and 'in time' are both redundant with respect to > > > > time] > > > > > > > > Analysis inherently involves time. This is because analysis is a > > > > process. > > > > > > > > But since analysis inherently involves time, analysis inherently > > > > pertains to what has arisen in time. > > > > > > > > Therefore, you are effectively asserting that analysis is a defunct > > > > concept. > > > > > > > > I doubt that is what you meant, but that is what you said. > > > > > > > > Getting back to the original question, forget the time aspect. I'll > > > > rephrase: > > > > Does anything in experience ever stay the same? > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > The analysis of the inter-reactional relationship between things > > > material > > > can > > > be accomplished to a certain, limited extent. > > > > > > However, in this exercise, you factor in the non-existent self and > > > then > > > ask it > > > to isolate its impressions of its own " actions " . > > > > > > It would be like trying to find diamonds in a dream mountain. > > > > > > > > > In regard to your inquiry above: > > > > > > The question is meaningless simply because there are no separate > > > things......and no separate, cogative entity to observe them. > > > > > > These exercises are all ultimately meaningless because they are > > > addressed > > > to an entity that simply has no existential reality. > > > > I am disappointed in your reply toombaru. > > On multiple counts. > > > > A) I took the trouble to point out to you your reas oning error in > > previous post regarding " It is a misconception that.... " You don't > > even address that here. This suggests I am wasting my time in > > commenting on your posts. > > > > B) I didn't " factor in " any " self " whatsoever. It is you doing that > > all on your own, as usual. > > > > C) If you had understood the original question (as geo has) you > > wouldn't even venture with your comments about " separate things " , > > as if nothing persists then there can be no " things " except as > > mere appearance. > > > > Here is geo's reply for reference: > > <<< > > > > " Does anything in experience ever stay the same, > > > > even for one second? > > > > geo> No. Everything and anything in consciousness is moving. > > >>> > > > > What can I conclude from A-C? > > > > Here are some possibilities: > > 1) You are so bent on impressing and playing games with words, > > where you pick a word out of a sentence and run around holding > > that word high over-he ad yelling, " Illusion! Illusion! " all the while > > never having read the word in context or paying any attention > > to what was actually said. [ " finding diamonds in a dream mountain " > > quite a piece of schlock] > > > > 2) You actually don't see what geo sees, that everything and > > anything in consciousness is moving. > > > > Please don't expect the courtesy of a thoughtful reply if I > > continue to read such impertinent responses as you have > > dolloped up in this last. > > > > Finally, while I am sorry to be having such sharp works for you > > my friend, they seem to be necessary. Please wake up! > > > > Bill > > > > geo> I am mot following this thread... but perhaps will help to consider > > that time is a measure of movement. NOthing else. > > the measure of movement infers a way to record, to register the previous > aspects of the movement. > > so time as a measure of movement infers registration in memory, and > comparison of stimuli by thought. > > so, time is not just a measure of movement. > > time is the application of memory through thought. > > unless you suppose a way to measure movement without memory being > involved. > > geo> No, memory is invoved for sure. > What you are not considering is that memory is matter. So thought is > matter > in movement: time. geo> I said: I dont suppose a way to measure movement without memory being involved. I am agreeing you wouldn't be able to bring in a concept of matter unless your memory were operational. a rock is matter, and a rock wouldn't have this conversation with me. so, saying that memory is matter is not a sufficient explanation of memory and its role in constructing time. similarly, it is thought that is defining matter in movement as time. a rock rolling down a hill isn't defining matter in movement as time. a human being that uses a brain to think is using thought and memory to define time as matter in motion. geo> Yes it is so. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090513-0, 13/05/2009 Tested on: 18/5/2009 19:41:58 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Monday, May 18, 2009 7:57 PM Re: From Bill on GR Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > which is why the absolute present is the sole escape from > > all that. > > > > Bill > > I agree... in fact, " staying in the present " (in a radical sense) is a > quite > easy road to 'awakening', if it doesn't occur half-assedly. For some > period > of time, one just remains one-pointedly 'now'. An amazingly powerful > thing... > > geo> Ongoing understanding/perception of the falacy of > psichologycal time. No 'mental' understanding is necessary, but the surrender of mental understanding. That is true understanding. Psychological time is the desire to be somewhere else. Understanding it is as easy as watching a good movie and noticing " I don't know where the time went " . Did you not surrender it upon sitting in the theater seat? geo> Of course intellectual understanding is nothing...just more thought. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090513-0, 13/05/2009 Tested on: 18/5/2009 20:59:56 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Psychological time is the desire to be somewhere else. Understanding it is as easy as watching a good movie and noticing " I don't know where the time went " . Did you not surrender it upon sitting in the theater seat? > Yes. Psychological time is defined by where the energy is going, the images involved. How much time does a life take to live/unfold? It's all subjective, based on subjectively defined markers. When engrossed and fascinated, where is time? And a movie fools you by drawing in your subjectivity and giving images that define time, like switching scenes in various ways. Just as a life deceives on who is believed to be living through experiences over time. The one living through those experiences is the deception itself. And the subjectivity that constructs the sense of time navigates by emotional pulls and pushes, tries to readjust with landmarks, like clocks. And the whole thing lasts ... how long? At the moment of death, it is clear. And the moment of death is now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > Psychological time is the desire to be somewhere else. Understanding it is as easy as watching a good movie and noticing " I don't know where the time went " . Did you not surrender it upon sitting in the theater seat? > > > > > Yes. Psychological time is defined by where the energy is going, the images involved. > > How much time does a life take to live/unfold? > > It's all subjective, based on subjectively defined markers. > > When engrossed and fascinated, where is time? I've joked before that Hollywood offers two-hour " enlightenment " sessions ;-). From here, awareness is always engrossed and fascinated. But not 'by' anything. It's just engrossed in nothing in particular, if that makes any sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > True. > > Flying free. > > Wonder. > > Laughter in the face of death. > > " Death where is thy sting? " Death is primarily fear of aloneness, loss and the unknown. In other words, fear of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > billrishel > Nisargadatta > Monday, May 18, 2009 5:53 PM > Re: From Bill on GR > > > > > > > > > > geo> I am mot following this thread... but perhaps will help to > > consider > > > that time is a measure of movement. NOthing else. > > > > ----------- > > that's good, and I almost agree. > > > > Note that movement itself is due to measurements. > > > > So more precisely, I suggest, movement and time > > both are measurements. > > > > Any metaphysical notion of time is a confusion IMO. > > > > Bill > > > > geo> matter, manifestation, measurment, movement ....time. > > > > which is why the absolute present is the sole escape from > all that. > > Bill > > Freedom from time is better IMO. > -geo- > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. It is the ending of time. Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dan:perception is circular, just like talk. there is no escape, and doesn't need to be one. who said that? very very nice....no escape and doesn't need to be one.... " who said that? " .... everyone....every voice a chorus...echoing the roots of antiquity.Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Tim:> Psychological time is the desire to be somewhere else. Understanding it is as easy as watching a good movie and noticing " I don't know where the time went " . Did you not surrender it upon sitting in the theater seat? > Dan: Yes. Psychological time is defined by where the energy is going, the images involved. How much time does a life take to live/unfold? It's all subjective, based on subjectively defined markers. When engrossed and fascinated, where is time? And a movie fools you by drawing in your subjectivity and giving images that define time, like switching scenes in various ways. Just as a life deceives on who is believed to be living through experiences over time. The one living through those experiences is the deception itself. And the subjectivity that constructs the sense of time navigates by emotional pulls and pushes, tries to readjust with landmarks, like clocks. And the whole thing lasts ... how long? At the moment of death, it is clear. And the moment of death is now.Beautiful Dan...like bobbling bouys on the seathe little bracketing markers...the thens and the whens. Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 - billrishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:27 AM Re: From Bill on GR Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > billrishel > Nisargadatta > Monday, May 18, 2009 5:53 PM > Re: From Bill on GR > > > > > > > > > > geo> I am mot following this thread... but perhaps will help to > > consider > > > that time is a measure of movement. NOthing else. > > > > ----------- > > that's good, and I almost agree. > > > > Note that movement itself is due to measurements. > > > > So more precisely, I suggest, movement and time > > both are measurements. > > > > Any metaphysical notion of time is a confusion IMO. > > > > Bill > > > > geo> matter, manifestation, measurment, movement ....time. > > > > which is why the absolute present is the sole escape from > all that. > > Bill > > Freedom from time is better IMO. > -geo- > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. It is the ending of time. Bill It is. But to speak of " absolute present " may induce one to try to do something about the past and the future. That wont work, you know... It would be something like...stay...stay....stay...stay... The fact is: time is running alright....in this timeless space. Noise is running in this silent field. All is moving...in this non-moving rock. Maybe is the same... -g-e-o- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090513-0, 13/05/2009 Tested on: 19/5/2009 07:29:06 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 The absolute present *is* freedom from time. It is the ending of time. Bill It is. But to speak of " absolute present " may induce one to try to do something about the past and the future.The problem you seem to be concerned aboutis one of someone taking my description andsomehow construing it as a prescription. There's not a lot I can do to help that, thoughsometimes I put a note to that effect at theend of a piece.Anyway, I was writing that to you... so not an issue. That wont work, you know... It would be something like...stay...stay....stay...stay... The fact is: time is running alright....in this timeless space. Noise is running in this silent field. All is moving...in this non-moving rock. Maybe is the same...Sounds the same.... " all is moving... in the non-moving rock " ...has the right feel. If you were just thinking about it you could never have come up with that.Bill -g-e-o- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:20 AM Re: Re: From Bill on GR The absolute present *is* freedom from time. It is the ending of time. Bill It is. But to speak of " absolute present " may induce one to try to do something about the past and the future. The problem you seem to be concerned about is one of someone taking my description and somehow construing it as a prescription. There's not a lot I can do to help that, though sometimes I put a note to that effect at the end of a piece. Anyway, I was writing that to you... so not an issue. That wont work, you know... It would be something like...stay...stay....stay...stay... The fact is: time is running alright....in this timeless space. Noise is running in this silent field. All is moving...in this non-moving rock. Maybe is the same... Sounds the same.... " all is moving... in the non-moving rock " ... has the right feel. If you were just thinking about it you could never have come up with that. Bill I do think sometimes...distraction. But when a write here, i try to not think. There is an ongoing awareness of the dangers of thought. -g-e-o- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090513-0, 13/05/2009 Tested on: 19/5/2009 08:27:16 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn wrote: > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > It is the ending of time. > > Bill > Bill, There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! Werner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > It is the ending of time. > > Bill > Bill, There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! Werner Yes, Werner. That is consciousness. Ttimelessness is not related to consciousness. Anyway....the ground of time is timlessness, just as the ground of movement is stillness..etc... -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090513-0, 13/05/2009 Tested on: 19/5/2009 08:47:06 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > It is the ending of time. > > > > Bill > > > > Bill, > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic > spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term > memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term > memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs > memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless > are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > > Werner > > Yes, Werner. That is consciousness. Ttimelessness is not related to > consciousness. > Anyway....the ground of time is timlessness, just as the ground of movement > is stillness..etc... > -geo- > > That " timelessness " is just an idea, Geo. A philosophy. Consciousness is all there is. Everything beyond consciousness are ideas. Werner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > It is the ending of time. > > > > Bill > > > > Bill, > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic > spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? This gets into a complete topic of its own. As I see it there are " two attentions " . Right now I am typing and certainly there is some kind of attention to the screen, the keys, and so on to be able to type. But none of that is in conscious attention. It is just happening. So there is attention involved, but not conscious attention. I call that *unconscious attention*. As another example of unconscious attention, someone is on their cell phone talking, deeply engrossed in conversation, and all the while going to their refrigerator, taking out a carton of milk, pouring the milk into a glass, putting the carton back, then drinking the milk. All of that can happen with unconscious attention, leaving conscious attention free for the conversation. What almost no one realizes is that *everything* in the space-time world can be conducted with unconscious attention (!). It is the " poking " of conscious attention into the activities of the organism that is the source of all the trouble. And it is the conscious attention that " collapses " into the present in dissolution of so-called ego. When the conscious attention finally " lets go of the world " it collapses into the immediate present and simultaneously experiences an astonishing expansion.... an expansion that could be called " super consciousness " . When the second attention -- which is consciousness [notice that it is the second attention that is conscious] -- expands into absolute presence, all activity in so-called space-time continues, as governed by the first (unconscious) attention. Hence the information from the CD does get stored in memory, but in consciousness there is only vivid, absolute presence. It is as if there were two simultaneous planes. The Dream was the imagination that the activities in space-time world were conscious. The awakening is realization that activities in space-time world are all a dream, and that what is conscious is the " absolute present " , now awakened into. Bill PS: > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term > memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term > memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. Actually there is such a case described in detail in Antonio Damasio's book *The Feeling of What Happens*. > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term > memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term > memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs > memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless > are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > It is the ending of time. > > > > Bill > > > > > Bill, > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > > Werner > See message 66833 Werner. I responded to the above there, thinking it was geo's remarks. Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > It is the ending of time. > > > > Bill > > > > > Bill, > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > > Werner wernie.. you're so wild eyed and romantic. some day you'll give up these fairy tales. but..you are too emotional about this silliness. it's not important little guy. relax and just cruise. as you say.. nothing means anything anyway. " it " needs no explanation nor defense. " it " doesn't require you or your acceptance. " it " hasn't graced " you " with the Understanding that's all. that's all. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > > It is the ending of time. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic > > spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? > > > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short term > > memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short term > > memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was concsious. > > > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which needs > > memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the timeless > > are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > > > > Werner > > > > Yes, Werner. That is consciousness. Ttimelessness is not related to > > consciousness. > > Anyway....the ground of time is timlessness, just as the ground of movement > > is stillness..etc... > > -geo- > > > > > > > That " timelessness " is just an idea, Geo. A philosophy. > Consciousness is all there is. Everything beyond consciousness are ideas. > > Werner this then is werner's idea about consciousness. no consciousness is required to formulate that idea. that idea is : deaf..dumb..blind..not quick yet not dead... basically dull. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > > It is the ending of time. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all > romantic > > spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? > > This gets into a complete topic of its own. > > As I see it there are " two attentions " . > Right now I am typing and certainly there is > some kind of attention to the screen, the keys, > and so on to be able to type. But none of that > is in conscious attention. It is just happening. > So there is attention involved, but not conscious > attention. I call that *unconscious attention*. > > As another example of unconscious attention, > someone is on their cell phone talking, deeply > engrossed in conversation, and all the while > going to their refrigerator, taking out a carton > of milk, pouring the milk into a glass, putting > the carton back, then drinking the milk. All > of that can happen with unconscious attention, > leaving conscious attention free for the > conversation. > > What almost no one realizes is that *everything* > in the space-time world can be conducted with > unconscious attention (!). > > It is the " poking " of conscious attention into > the activities of the organism that is the source > of all the trouble. And it is the conscious attention > that " collapses " into the present in dissolution of > so-called ego. When the conscious attention > finally " lets go of the world " it collapses into the > immediate present and simultaneously > experiences an astonishing expansion.... > an expansion that could be called " super consciousness " . > When the second attention -- which is consciousness > [notice that it is the second attention that is conscious] > -- expands into absolute presence, all activity in so-called > space-time continues, as governed by the first > (unconscious) attention. > > Hence the information from the CD does get stored > in memory, but in consciousness there is only > vivid, absolute presence. > > It is as if there were two simultaneous planes. > > The Dream was the imagination that the activities > in space-time world were conscious. The awakening > is realization that activities in space-time world are > all a dream, and that what is conscious is the > " absolute present " , now awakened into. > > > Bill > > PS: > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the > short term > > memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short > term > > memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was > concsious. > Actually there is such a case described in detail in Antonio Damasio's > book *The Feeling of What Happens*. > Ok, Bill, I do not know Antonio Damasio but whatever he wrote consciousness is created in the short term memory and when that part of the brain got damaged or is gone then there no longer is consciousness. And I am pleased that you no longer are mentioning thet " timeless " which rather belongs to poetry like the timeless beauty of a mountain or to a philosophy which is built on the hope when there no longer is time then pain will be gone too. What you wrote about " unconsciuous attention " I doubt if such a thing aividctually does exist. There doubtless do exist automatic processes like heart beat or digestion or conditined responses and reactions but the automatic lightening of a cigarette or walking to the fridge to get another glass of milk is is a repetitive mechanism which no longer demands attention. But if there still is attention then because it exist in addition to those automatisms like when driving a car or a bicycle. Attention umplies an attender. When there is no attender then the contents of consciousness still are appearing in their usual flux which is time but now, without any attender, that flux is unhindered and undisturbed and then that which you call the " expansion of consciousness " may happen. And that expansions of consciousnes just means that now the contents of consciousness have a different quality, more detailed or even more shiny, vivid etc. Happy expansion of consciousness, Bill, to you and to everyone else. Werner > > > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the > short term > > memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short > term > > memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was > concsious. > > > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which > needs > > memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the > timeless > > are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > Ok, Bill, > > I do not know Antonio Damasio but whatever he wrote consciousness is created in the short term memory and when that part of the brain got damaged or is gone then there no longer is consciousness. > > And I am pleased that you no longer are mentioning thet " timeless " which rather belongs to poetry like the timeless beauty of a mountain or to a philosophy which is built on the hope when there no longer is time then pain will be gone too. > > What you wrote about " unconsciuous attention " I doubt if such a thing aividctually does exist. There doubtless do exist automatic processes like heart beat or digestion or conditined responses and reactions but the automatic lightening of a cigarette or walking to the fridge to get another glass of milk is is a repetitive mechanism which no longer demands attention. > > But if there still is attention then because it exist in addition to those automatisms like when driving a car or a bicycle. > > Attention umplies an attender. When there is no attender then the > contents of consciousness still are appearing in their usual flux which is time but now, without any attender, that flux is unhindered and undisturbed and then that which you call the " expansion of consciousness " may happen. > > And that expansions of consciousnes just means that now the contents of consciousness have a different quality, more detailed or even more shiny, vivid etc. > > Happy expansion of consciousness, Bill, to you and to everyone else. > > > > Werner ok.. but what the hell do you mean? LOL! ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 - billrishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:59 AM Re: From Bill on GR Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > The absolute present *is* freedom from time. > > It is the ending of time. > > > > Bill > > > > > Bill, > > There is neither freedom of time nor the timeless. These are all romantic > spiritual ideas traded down from countless repetitive generations. > > Listen to to the song of a bird or of a cd. Are you able to do it ? > > To be able to listen to a song needs memory, or more precise, the short > term memory. There is no single case known in neurology where the short > term memory was demaged and out of function and yet the person was > concsious. > > And this already shows that consciousness already is a function which > needs memory and time. And herewith all those wonderful ideas about the > timeless are obsolete or more precise: Nonsense ! > > Werner > See message 66833 Werner. I responded to the above there, thinking it was geo's remarks. Bill geo> and you did not tell me to shut up? > ....well...I must have quite a good reputation here... It was not me indeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Psychological time is the desire to be somewhere else. Understanding it is as easy as watching a good movie and noticing " I don't know where the time went " . Did you not surrender it upon sitting in the theater seat? > > > > > > > > > Yes. Psychological time is defined by where the energy is going, the images involved. > > > > How much time does a life take to live/unfold? > > > > It's all subjective, based on subjectively defined markers. > > > > When engrossed and fascinated, where is time? > > I've joked before that Hollywood offers two-hour " enlightenment " sessions ;-). > > From here, awareness is always engrossed and fascinated. But not 'by' anything. It's just engrossed in nothing in particular, if that makes any sense. Any experience at all is an image that has captivated awareness. Awareness is captivated, but never captured. Is engrossed, yet free of what engrosses. The awareness is the experience, and transcends experience. The space in which experience reverberates is fascination, is the boundary of no-boundary, is what Rod Serling called " The Twilight Zone, " which Tibetans call " The Display. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
