Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn wrote: > > There is no pattern > that applies in the moment. > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > Bill P: Those who don't understand that existence itself is a pattern, don't understand, period. Manifestation is itself pattern. Consciousness is the contrast between chaos and pattern. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - cerosoul Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM no pattern -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn wrote: > > There is no pattern > that applies in the moment. > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > Bill P: Those who don't understand that existence itself is a pattern, don't understand, period. Manifestation is itself pattern. Consciousness is the contrast between chaos and pattern. Pete Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body kicks... -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > cerosoul > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > no pattern > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > There is no pattern > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > Bill > > P: Those who don't understand that > existence itself is a pattern, don't > understand, period. Manifestation > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > Pete > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > kicks... > -geo- > Or sometimes............before. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > cerosoul > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > no pattern > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > There is no pattern > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > Bill > > P: Those who don't understand that > existence itself is a pattern, don't > understand, period. Manifestation > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > Pete > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > kicks... > -geo- > Or sometimes............before. toombaru How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > cerosoul > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > kicks... > > -geo- > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > toombaru > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > -geo- > There is a way to live outside of that. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > -geo- > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. The only way to be fully human is to be nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > cerosoul > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > kicks... > > -geo- > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > toombaru > > How? > -geo- > P: Insanity, comma, or stroke would do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:40 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > cerosoul > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > kicks... > > -geo- > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > toombaru > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > -geo- > There is a way to live outside of that. toombaru I agree. But the human world is still there. (...or not? hmmmm...) -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:42 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > -geo- > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. The only way to be fully human is to be nothing. geo> So there are two human worlds. The consciousness of separateness as an individual self and the universal impersonal collective consciousness of individuallity being seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - cerosoul Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:43 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > cerosoul > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > kicks... > > -geo- > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > toombaru > > How? > -geo- > P: Insanity, comma, or stroke would do it. geo> Those are just human deseises. Still human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Tim G. > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:42 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > The only way to be fully human is to be nothing. > > geo> So there are two human worlds. The consciousness of separateness as an > individual self > and the universal impersonal collective consciousness of individuallity > being seen. Individuality is the real Self. The latter case you mention above ( " universal collective consciousness " ) can only be inferred, not 'experienced directly'. The paradox of Oneness is that it is also total aloneness. One loses the sense of collectivity, which was always/only 'right here'. Oneness and collectivity are mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > The only way to be fully human is to be nothing. > > geo> So there are two human worlds. The consciousness of separateness as > an > individual self > and the universal impersonal collective consciousness of individuallity > being seen. Individuality is the real Self. The latter case you mention above ( " universal collective consciousness " ) can only be inferred, not 'experienced directly'. The paradox of Oneness is that it is also total aloneness. One loses the sense of collectivity, which was always/only 'right here'. Oneness and collectivity are mutually exclusive. geo> Only being nothing, consciousness is fully seen. Consciousness is collective - many beings share it insofar they feel as separate inner entities looking at an outside separate world - that what consciousness is. Of course there are no beings - much the less many beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > The only way to be fully human is to be nothing. > > geo> So there are two human worlds. The consciousness of separateness as > an > individual self > and the universal impersonal collective consciousness of individuallity > being seen. Individuality is the real Self. The latter case you mention above ( " universal collective consciousness " ) can only be inferred, not 'experienced directly'. The paradox of Oneness is that it is also total aloneness. One loses the sense of collectivity, which was always/only 'right here'. Oneness and collectivity are mutually exclusive. geo> Yes, collectivity is part of consciousness. Oneness is not. Al-one is seeing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > geo> Only being nothing, consciousness is fully seen. Consciousness > is > collective - many beings share it There are not many beings. There is only Being, which is one. > insofar they feel as separate inner entities looking at an outside > separate > world - that what consciousness is. Insofar as they feel separate, they are still not separate. They feel separate because of an early mechanism in which the " me " is created by inferring " you " -- then this " me " (which is taken to be the body) is also taken to be subjective. Except the body is an object. We can witness it. Therefore, it's not the Subject, but an object. Clearly we are not objects. What are we?;-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 1:33 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > geo> Only being nothing, consciousness is fully seen. Consciousness > is > collective - many beings share it There are not many beings. There is only Being, which is one. > insofar they feel as separate inner entities looking at an outside > separate > world - that what consciousness is. Insofar as they feel separate, they are still not separate. They feel separate because of an early mechanism in which the " me " is created by inferring " you " -- then this " me " (which is taken to be the body) is also taken to be subjective. Except the body is an object. We can witness it. Therefore, it's not the Subject, but an object. Clearly we are not objects. What are we?;-). geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it not the sense of being one amongst many? Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of illusion. A univesal impersonal river of illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it > not the > sense of being one amongst many? If that's how you define the word. From here, the sense of being one amongst many is not inherent in consciousness. Or, if you like, there's consciousness and then there's awareness (this is how Nisargadatta defined things). According to him we can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of being aware. > Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of > illusion. A > univesal impersonal river of illusion. The notion of " universal consciousness " probably feels impersonal because it's inferred. This inferred impersonality is what creates the notion of individuality being personal. This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 > geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it not > the > sense of being one amongst many? T: If that's how you define the word. From here, the sense of being one amongst many is not inherent in consciousness. geo> Let us go slowly. When it comes to the expression consciousness things may get a bit confused. Many have used it in different ways. Please try to put in words what you mean by consciousness. Let us try stick to Nis. nomenclature. As I see it, he uses this word different from Krishnamurti. To K as soon as the center is not, also consciousness is not. He would say that then there is " something else " . But that is not the way Niz. uses the word.... According to Nis. consciousness is ALL that is not the ultimate. Ahhh.....I see....So you are conssidering it also in this way. But then we have two very different fields of existence in consciousness: one with and the other without the center. Yes, I was using K's definition of the word. Makes sense? ....or it is too much? :>)) Or, if you like, there's consciousness and then there's awareness (this is how Nisargadatta defined things). According to him we can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of being aware. > Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of > illusion. A > univesal impersonal river of illusion. The notion of " universal consciousness " probably feels impersonal because it's inferred. This inferred impersonality is what creates the notion of individuality being personal. This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting subject....from here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less > pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of > collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > > geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting > subject....from here.... Well, I don't see anything inherent in consciousness that insists we be an object among objects. In fact, when I think of the body and then think that's what I am, I'm identifying with a thought, which is well nigh ridiculous. I cannot " be " something I think of, cannot be a momentary thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 > > tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less > pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of > collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would > say). > > geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting > subject....from here.... tim:Well, I don't see anything inherent in consciousness that insists we be an object among objects. In fact, when I think of the body and then think that's what I am, I'm identifying with a thought, which is well nigh ridiculous. I cannot " be " something I think of, cannot be a momentary thought. geo> Then I must ask: what or where is the source of the energy that insists (and very convincingly at that for the vaaaast majority of humanity) in making human beings feel as separate entities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > cerosoul > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > > kicks... > > > -geo- > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > toombaru > > > > How? > > -geo- > > It is possible to experience the world from a perspective that includes the conceptual but does not exclusively identify with it. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less > > pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of > > collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would > > say). > > > > geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting > > subject....from here.... > > tim:Well, I don't see anything inherent in consciousness that insists we be > an object among objects. In fact, when I think of the body and then think > that's what I am, I'm identifying with a thought, which is well nigh > ridiculous. I cannot " be " something I think of, cannot be a momentary > thought. > > geo> Then I must ask: what or where is the source of the energy that insists > (and very convincingly at that for the vaaaast majority of humanity) > in making human beings feel as separate entities? Again, the illusion of " me " is created by " you " . The ego is a social phenomenon, and the illusion can be summed up: " I am what you see " . The truth can be summed up: " I am what *I* see " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:34 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > cerosoul > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the > > > body > > > kicks... > > > -geo- > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > toombaru > > > > How? > > -geo- > > It is possible to experience the world from a perspective that includes the conceptual but does not exclusively identify with it. toombaru Agree -geo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it > not the > > sense of being one amongst many? > > If that's how you define the word. From here, the sense of being one amongst many is not inherent in consciousness. > > Or, if you like, there's consciousness and then there's awareness (this is how Nisargadatta defined things). According to him we can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of being aware. > > > Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of > > illusion. A > > univesal impersonal river of illusion. > > The notion of " universal consciousness " probably feels impersonal because it's inferred. This inferred impersonality is what creates the notion of individuality being personal. > > This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > > > > > Go within? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it > not the > > > sense of being one amongst many? > > > > If that's how you define the word. From here, the sense of being one amongst many is not inherent in consciousness. > > > > Or, if you like, there's consciousness and then there's awareness (this is how Nisargadatta defined things). According to him we can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of being aware. > > > > > Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of > > > illusion. A > > > univesal impersonal river of illusion. > > > > The notion of " universal consciousness " probably feels impersonal because it's inferred. This inferred impersonality is what creates the notion of individuality being personal. > > > > This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go within? Yes... be alone, totally independent, detached from the objective, immersed in yourself. Rest in yourself, in your own Being, instead of being dependent on 'others' as a flimsy house of cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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