Love all or none of it . . . .

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:51:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> dennis_travis33 writes:

>

> > As soon as someone says " there is no other way than meditation "

> somebody

> > 'Awakens' without ever having meditated. It's not wisdom to

place

> constraints on

> > infinite potential. There are infinite ways and there are no

> methods. The

> > methods and practices are distractions, though these

distractions

> may be a

> > necessary part of ones path.

> >

> > What does it mean to be aware of the SELF? What thing is it that

is

> aware of

> > another thing?

> >

> > Phil

>

>

> Phil....maybe you should meditate and find out.....

>

> joking, ok....as i see, you aren't interested in

meditation.....even

> if since thousand of years it's practised and just give people All

> they ever wished to " Be " .....means, Self.

>

> Self Is Awareness

>

> Awareness Is Self

>

> ....

>

> there is nothing but Self....for somebody meditating nicely

>

> Marc

>

>

>

> Meditation has been, and still is, a part of my 'path', but I

also see it's

> limitations. What I see as a limitation is what you see as special

insight

> that leaves you in a position of superior knowingness. The

difficulty is that

> the 'me' never quite goes away, and so it becomes 'MY' experience

of Self as

> Awareness.

>

> Phil

 

 

Phil......

 

i'm sorry.....

 

i'm not the one in here who try hard....with endless words, like you

do.....to explain a " superior knowingness " ....etc...

 

as far i see.....your knowledge indeed, is of many many personal

thoughts.....and so of restless mind......and so of unawareness....

 

 

can't you " see " that you are mostly talking to yourself....?....

means, giving advices to just yourself.....

 

 

Marc

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

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[Guest guest]

Dear Phil

 

Thanks for your mail. But tell me how to do self enquiry. any method or principle .Please suggest. How Maharaj advised to their seeker. Because i am not intellectual kind of person and can not digest big philosopy. Just suggest one way and i stick to it.

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

Warm Regards

 

Manjit Malhi

 

 

Nisargadatta From: souldreamoneDate: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 04:13:17 -0400Re: Love all or none of it . . . .

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:22:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, malhimanjit (AT) hotmail (DOT) com writes:

First i read I am that than i come across books of UG Krishnamurthy which describes Mind is myth and there is no self and soul at all. Meditation is bullshit and harmful to body. but he also described his natural states and diiferent experience along with marks of chakra on various parts of body. i can not understand and in great dilemma .Should i leave self enquiry and meditation if i belive in UG. But in deep my heart it seems to be there is something .How should i clarify my doubts and make progress. If i want to know self or my true nature -Can anyone help me how to go about this in first step and how should i know my progress.HELP Warm regards Manjit

 

Hi Manjit

All I have to offer is my perspective and experience, of course. It's clear to me that no concepts are Truth, but can only point to it, so all concepts have limited value and are only valid within their own context.

 

The soul can be a useful analogy at some levels of understanding, but in a larger context I see no soul. Multiple souls would be yet another level of illusion inserted between the illusion of human experience and that which you/we truly are, and there is no need. Likewise, there is no reincarnation or the attending karma that accompanies that imagined process, though these too have their place as contextual analogies.

 

Mind is also a concept for identifying the thinking/perceiving aspect of illusion, and is itself part of the illusion, though it doesn't seem to serve much purpose to dismiss it.

 

I don't see meditation as harmfull to the body. I see it as yet another tool that serves its purpose, but it has limitations depending upon how it is done. Krishnamurty's definition of meditation is much different than how it is normally practiced, and for him was not actually a practice. It can become problematic for two reasons that I can see. It presupposes one who is attempting to accomplish something, while in reality the goal is to see that there is nobody present to accomplish anything. It also generally leads to various mind states, none of which are Truth because Truth is not a state of mind. The mind states may be very powerful and often lead seekers to believe some enlightened state has been accomplished. The state then ends and the seeker goes about trying to duplicate it without success.

 

Self inquiry has been very fruitful for me and is recommended by almost every guru I've stumbled across.

For what it's worth, that's my perspective.

 

Phil

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/11/2008 1:36:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> dennis_travis33 writes:

>

>

> Phil......

>

> i'm sorry.....

>

> i'm not the one in here who try hard....with endless words, like

you

> do.....to explain a " superior knowingness " ....etc...

>

> as far i see.....your knowledge indeed, is of many many personal

> thoughts.....and so of restless mind......and so of unawareness....

>

>

> can't you " see " that you are mostly talking to yourself....?....

> means, giving advices to just yourself.....

>

>

> Marc

>

>

>

> That's precisely what I am doing. Though I do have to weed through

volumes

> of posts from others who seem to think they are advising me instead

of

> themselves while ignoring their own reflections.

> Let me be clear. You and I have played this silly game before. I

need no

> help from you at all. You're free to ignore me. I have no interest

in what you

> have to say.

>

> Phil

 

 

true....

 

we continue to ignore each so....no problem....

 

you don't practise meditation....ok!

 

you have some nice intiutions....ok!

 

but where do you think are your intiutions etc are coming

from?......other/except than from your Self?....

 

 

Marc

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Manjit,I have came accross a conversation of Sri Ramana Maharshi and a devotee in a book dedicated to his life.---Q: Krishnamoorty says that there is no need of a Guru?A: Who says so?, only after self realisation, one can say that now i do not need a Guru.----I believe that krishnamoorty was a powerful orator. But a powerful orator need not necessarily be a realised saint. His writings are influencial, but i see his methods are not according to traditional indian methids which are sucessfully time tested by number of saints over a period of time. So i do not accept his philosophy.Self enquiry is the most direct path. Ramana Maharshi, Sri Nisargadattaji

practiced the same.But if you are new to non-dual concept, i will suggest you to read the biography i.e. life of the saint before reading his instructions. Saints of different nature (karma, bhakti, jyana) follow and choose their path to salvation according to their nature and then establish themselves in their SELF, i.e. realise their true nature.. Later on, due to divine wish, they preach the same.  So if you know their lifes, you can understand their concepts easily.As far as advaita vedanta (non-dual) is concerned, first read the basic books on non-duality, preferably in your mother tongue like Tatva Bodh, Atma Bodh, Vivek Choodamani written by a saint following advaita tradition. I feel that Lige of Sri Ramakrishna (Jivan Charitra) & Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa by M (Mahendranath Gupta) may help you a lot. It is written in plain language, and concepts

of vedanta are explained in the language of common man. However he has preached dual approach. He also supports non-dual approach. He has practised dual, non-dual, tantric, christian, islam. Meditated intensely and realised that same truth can be approach by different paths. All paths lead to the same truth. He preached the same. His words have greatly infuenced me.Bhagawat Gita is always there. AUMSujal manjit malhi <malhimanjitnisargadatta Sent: Friday, 11 April, 2008 11:51:19 AMRE: Love all or none of it . . . . First i read I am that than i come across books of UG Krishnamurthy which describes Mind is myth and there is no self and soul at all. Meditation is bullshit and harmful to body. but he also described his natural states and diiferent experience along with marks of chakra on various parts of body. i can not understand and in great dilemma .Should i leave self enquiry and meditation if i belive in UG. But in deep my heart it seems to be there is something .How should i clarify my doubts and make progress.   If i want to know self or my true nature -Can anyone help me how to go about this in first step and how should i know my progress.HELP   Warm regards  

Manjit Nisargadattasujal_u Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:22:39 +0530Re: Love all or none of it .. . . .Dear Phil,"The eye cannot see the eye (or the 'I' the 'I').(This is infact pointed out by Sri Ramana Maharshi in "40 verses on truth"What you say is definately true.When we say that "to god God, we should go inside the Heart". This does not mean that we have to travel from one place to other. It is a way of expressing, as our mind naturally is tuned with the body. SELF cannot be explained, as you correctly said "The eye cannot see the eye (or the 'I' the 'I')."But

what you do to put in the words to guide/express somebody. When Sri Nisargadattaji says that "SELF is beyond words", what does he mean? Does a saint try to cage the SELF, which is beyond words. If such  is the case  then nobody  can talk to  each other  or express  anything to  others. WHO explains WHOM .What i talked was a process (as i meditate and give importance to Meditation), which, i realise, is frutile according to you.What you said is the result of the process. "You are the eye". Who sees whom. But again, I cannot dare to say these words before i experience this state or in your language "be the SELF" or "be what you are". As words of a Realised saint are a result of their direct experience. After i know my true nature and always abide in it. i will, without any fear or hasitation, say "The eye cannot see the eye (or the 'I' the 'I').", as there is no doubt.Else i see the 'snake' (which is

superimposed  on 'rope' - by false illusion), but keep on saying that i see the 'rope'.My words indiicate my state of mind and where i stand.I think we are not been able to tune ourselves with each other.. Out line thinking is a bit different, but i think our Goal is the same.Anyway. byeAUMSujal"souldreamone@ AOL.com" <souldreamone@ AOL.com>NisargadattaFriday, 11 April, 2008 1:39:50 AMRe: Love all or none of it . . . . In a message dated 4/10/2008 3:48:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

sujal_u writes:Hi Phil,Yes i agree that we think and mind is active indreams.I also give importance to meditation and believe thatwithout meditation i cannot have that awarenessconstantly thoughout day and night.Meditation is trying to be aware of the SELF accordingto me.The statement about dreams that i made originallybelongs to a senior disciple of Swami Chinmaya(founder of Chinmaya mission nad Swami Tadrupanand ofJnana and manan ashram.Also the importance i give to meditation of chantinggods name or being aware of the SELF can be found inTraditional Scriptures if non-duality likeVivek Choodamani of Sri Adi Sankaracharya says that"there is no way other than meditation (sadhana) torealise yor true nature.The term meditation is sometimes loosely

defined.1. It may be chanting the name of any form of God(Path of Devotion - Pratik Upasana)2. Chanting AUM (formless approach)- Pratik Upasana3. The path of Knowledge - Neti Neti, Sri RamanaMaharshi's approach, Sri Nisargadattaji' s approach,and Atmashatak or Nirvana Shatak of Sri AdiSankaracharya (Ahangra upasna)* Pratik - Symbol - AUM represents the formlessatribute of God just as national flag represents theentire nation.Similarly- chanting God's name ( say Lord RAMA) alsorepresents GOD but with atributes.I try to follow Indian Scriptures (Shaastra) asShaastra is nothing but collection of the experienceof innumerable realised saints with time immorial.So i consider them as authentic.AUMSujalAs soon as someone says "there is no other way than meditation" somebody 'Awakens' without ever having meditated. It's

not wisdom to place constraints on infinite potential. There are infinite ways and there are no methods. The methods and practices are distractions, though these distractions may be a necessary part of ones path.  What does it mean to be aware of the SELF? What thing is it that is aware of another thing? Phil Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have

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In a message dated 4/11/2008 5:21:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, malhimanjit writes:

Dear Phil Thanks for your mail. But tell me how to do self enquiry. any method or principle .Please suggest. How Maharaj advised to their seeker. Because i am not intellectual kind of person and can not digest big philosopy. Just suggest one way and i stick to it. Thanks again for your time. Warm Regards Manjit Malhi

 

Hi Manjit

All realizations are a bit odd in that there is no method as such. The mind formulates methods and proceedures as part of its effortful doingness, but intuition, direct perception, 'looking', noticing, Gnosis or whatever name is given to it, is not a process involving effort, but rather the release of mind's effort which naturally blocks these realizations.

 

It may sound mysterious because of the absence of a step by step method, but seeing intuitively is something we have all done, and many simply never made the connection. 'Mother's intuition' is one example, where the connection with the child is sufficiently strong that certain realizations may reach consciousness awareness spontaneously, such as when the child is in danger. Psychics also operate in the same way. The scientist who focusses intently on a problem only to fail to arrive at a solution, gives up and relaxes or takes a nap, and in this effortless space, he has an "AHA!" moment in which the answer he was searching for arrives in his awareness in a timeless moment, and is then conceptualized.

 

The best way I can describe it is a high state of alertness in the absence of thought. Since the mind usually spins in such a state of alertness, this may be more difficult than it sounds. What I do is focus on the matter at hand, the way the scientist might, and then release the thought processes along with any effort involved, and simply get out of the way in this state of alertness. There is a period of time of anticipation, perhaps like that between the lightning flash and the expectation of the thunder, in which there is no grasping at thoughts but merely an alert attention. Meditation may be usefull, but not all mind states are conducive to the high state of alertness required. My intuition works best in a relaxed 'normal' state of consciousness.

 

Given that, self inquiry begins with noticing (intuitively) that what is being observed cannot possibly be that which is observing. To some this is obvious and to others it's just a concept, but if it's seen clearly, there is no question of it, it is not seen with the thinking mind and so is not subject to mind's doubt. It absolutely must be seen clearly, and it will be seen that it cannot be otherwise.

 

And so, you will know that you cannot be the body, the thoughts, the feelings or anything else you can objectify, or anything that changes or comes and goes. This will lead you to question what it is that forms the thoughts, and you'll find that you cannot assign any qualities or characteristics to it. It cannot be objectified in any way, though you must 'see' that this is so and not just conceptualize it. That which is forming the thoughts is You, what we sometimes call Awareness. It is not an object of mind and does not function in the linear realm. It cannot in any way be objectified. If you find an 'object', ask yourself what it is that is observing that object, and see if you can objectify that.

 

It is this focus on that which cannot be objectified, that is most useful.

Hope that helps a little. Thank you for your graciousness.

Phil

 

 

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In a message dated 4/11/2008 5:46:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dennis_travis33 writes:

true....we continue to ignore each so....no problem....you don't practise meditation....ok!you have some nice intiutions....ok!but where do you think are your intiutions etc are coming from?......other/except than from your Self?....:)Marc

 

Show me where I suggested that intuition comes from something other than the Self? Then you can show me where I said that I do not practice meditation. See, this is why

I've all but given up chatting with Booboo. I'd be spending all my time correcting his misperceptions and denying his stories and projections, and for what? What does that do for me? See?

 

Phil

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In a message dated 4/12/2008 8:34:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.savarie writes:

Well, Phil, I can appreciate what you're saying here but I don't quite get it. Maybe it's just way too abstract or something, I don't know.If my day isn't going the way I expect it to, I get frustrated. When I remember to drop my expectations, I realize nothing's really all that important that I should feel frustrated about it.It usually takes me few minutes to calm down. I hate feeling frustrated and I also hate the fact that my frustration was over something unimportant.I like to think of my life and everything that happens around me and to me is important somehow. It makes me feel like I matter in this big universe. Truth is, I don't matter. And that kind of sucks . . .Oh well, so be it.Rob

 

Yeah, again, I think if we're honest we can all identify with that. To me, the spiritual 'path' has been a series of 'little deaths' that you allude to. No, I'm not really any more important than anything or anyone else. There is no purpose to any of it. Choice is illusion. Cause/effect isn't happening here. I can't cause myself to Realize Truth. I can't find ultimate happiness. I can never be enlightened.

 

These are all deaths, but then since the individual is a misidentification, it makes perfect sense that it needs to disappear, and maybe that's not a problem after all. Ya know?

 

Phil

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[Guest guest]

Well, Phil, I can appreciate what you're saying here but I don't

quite get it. Maybe it's just way too abstract or something, I don't

know.

 

If my day isn't going the way I expect it to, I get frustrated. When

I remember to drop my expectations, I realize nothing's really all

that important that I should feel frustrated about it.

 

It usually takes me few minutes to calm down. I hate feeling

frustrated and I also hate the fact that my frustration was over

something unimportant.

 

I like to think of my life and everything that happens around me and

to me is important somehow. It makes me feel like I matter in this

big universe. Truth is, I don't matter. And that kind of sucks . . .

 

Oh well, so be it.

 

Rob

 

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/5/2008 9:17:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> silver writes:

>

> " Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not

> another. Love all or none of it, and stop complaining. " Niz

>

> When I'm in the dream state and dream of my favourite things, I

> really feel the emotions asociated with experiencing those things.

>

> Same goes for anything negative that happens in my dreams. I feel

> those things, too.

>

> If I get into an argument with my wife in a dream and hurt her

> feelings, that's an illusion. It isn't real and I won't pay for it

> later when I wake up.

>

> But if I say something hurtful to my wife in the waking state,

she's

> gonna' make me pay, whether I make myself believe it's all just a

> dream or not.

>

> How can I love both the positive and the negative parts of my

dream?

> How can I not love it? I live in a dream of my own making and

there

> are other people in it, like my wife, who have feelings like I do.

I

> can't just stop loving one part and start loving another part. I

hate

> fighting with my wife. I hate the hurtful things she and I say to

> each other sometimes. How can I love that?

>

> But I love the good things that happen and the good times we have

> together. How can I not love that?

>

> Rob

>

>

>

> Hi Rob

> I appreciate your openness, and of course we all have the same

dillema to

> one degree or another. Nizzy's second sentence seems like more than

just a

> pointer, and seems to be a method which of course won't work. The

focus is really

> on attachments to outcome, and it's clear that in the absence of

> attachments, there will be experiences that are enjoyed and others

that won't be so

> much, but none of it really has that intense quality that leads to

suffering.

>

> What it means is that the intensity of the highs and lows is

reduced, which

> is what I call duality clipping, which may lead to the conclusion

that life

> loses it's color or intensity, which is not what is wanted, and so

it's usually

> resisted. In my experience, this is not what has occurred, because

as the

> intensity of attachment to dualistic experience decreases,

something else

> begins to show up. To the degree that ego is not present, a

nondualistic form of

> Joy and Peace begin to show up, and because they are nondualistic,

they are

> not dependent upon the experience. They're present and sourced

from within, and

> this Joy and Peace colors everything in the experience so that

pleasant

> experiences become more joyful rather than bland, and 'negative'

experiences lose

> their 'bite' and can often become a source of wonder and humor. It

will also

> be noticed the experiences don't drive the Joy and Peace, but

rather the Joy

> and Peace form the experiences, since they are created from the

inside out

> and are not objectively present. IOW, it's not just the same

experiences that

> are tollerated or even appreciated, but the experiences themselves

are

> different as a reflection of the perceiver who now colors

everything with his own

> sense of Joy and wonder.

>

> Phil

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, thanks Sujal! You hit me there with the extrovert and introvert

thing. That makes alot of sense. I'm no saint: I don't practice

anything: I don't do any meditation, I don't pray, I don't do

service, or anything like that. Maybe that explains why I'm a

spiritual moron?

 

Rob

 

Nisargadatta , sujal <sujal_u wrote:

>

> Dear Phil,

>

> I am a new member. I appreciate and support your

> asnwer to Rob.

> I would like to add the following.

>

> When your desires fade out then love for God

> increases.

> There are 2 paths. 1. Extrovert and 2. Introvert.

> No scripture is complete without explaining the both

> and so every great saint makes a note of it and points

> out the same.

>

> 1. In extrovert path, the devottee tries to see God

> 'in any form' in others. He tries to superimpose the

> same on others and later on when his devotes and

> surrenderance matures, he sees good and the same

> spirit pervading in everything which he sees. This is

> the dualistic approach. Later on he turns on to non

> dual approach which is introvert (Sri Nissargduttaji

> Maharaj's path). " So love all "

>

> 2. In introvert path or non-dual approach, the

> disciple or the meditator sees this world world as an

> illusion and rejects it and tries to know 'who am I'.

> He is (or tries to be) neutral in all the situations

> and tries to establish himself in the self.So " Love

> None "

>

> This 2 lines:

> " So love all " & " Love None " are the extreme and in

> practical application we sould make them as reference

> and try to reach to this pont.

>

> We are not free from desires and so maebe we cannot

> see god in our enemys or cannot be neutral in tsting

> times, as we all have moods.

>

> But constant practice, character building, meditation

> (very important), prayers and surrender to the

> almighty can definitely help us to reach this state

> where we can " love all or none " . A person can annouce

> this without fear only when he has realised the true

> self.

>

> Sinerely

>

> Sujal Upadhyay

>

>

> --- souldreamone wrote:

>

> >

> > In a message dated 4/5/2008 9:17:06 AM Pacific

> > Daylight Time,

> > silver writes:

> >

> > " Your problem is that you like one part of your

> > dream and not

> > another. Love all or none of it, and stop

> > complaining. " Niz

> >

> > When I'm in the dream state and dream of my

> > favourite things, I

> > really feel the emotions asociated with

> > experiencing those things.

> >

> > Same goes for anything negative that happens in my

> > dreams. I feel

> > those things, too.

> >

> > If I get into an argument with my wife in a dream

> > and hurt her

> > feelings, that's an illusion. It isn't real and I

> > won't pay for it

> > later when I wake up.

> >

> > But if I say something hurtful to my wife in the

> > waking state, she's

> > gonna' make me pay, whether I make myself believe

> > it's all just a

> > dream or not.

> >

> > How can I love both the positive and the negative

> > parts of my dream?

> > How can I not love it? I live in a dream of my own

> > making and there

> > are other people in it, like my wife, who have

> > feelings like I do. I

> > can't just stop loving one part and start loving

> > another part. I hate

> > fighting with my wife. I hate the hurtful things she

> > and I say to

> > each other sometimes. How can I love that?

> >

> > But I love the good things that happen and the good

> > times we have

> > together. How can I not love that?

> >

> > Rob

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Rob

> > I appreciate your openness, and of course we all

> > have the same dillema to

> > one degree or another. Nizzy's second sentence seems

> > like more than just a

> > pointer, and seems to be a method which of course

> > won't work. The focus is really

> > on attachments to outcome, and it's clear that in

> > the absence of

> > attachments, there will be experiences that are

> > enjoyed and others that won't be so

> > much, but none of it really has that intense quality

> > that leads to suffering.

> >

> > What it means is that the intensity of the highs and

> > lows is reduced, which

> > is what I call duality clipping, which may lead to

> > the conclusion that life

> > loses it's color or intensity, which is not what is

> > wanted, and so it's usually

> > resisted. In my experience, this is not what has

> > occurred, because as the

> > intensity of attachment to dualistic experience

> > decreases, something else

> > begins to show up. To the degree that ego is not

> > present, a nondualistic form of

> > Joy and Peace begin to show up, and because they

> > are nondualistic, they are

> > not dependent upon the experience. They're present

> > and sourced from within, and

> > this Joy and Peace colors everything in the

> > experience so that pleasant

> > experiences become more joyful rather than bland,

> > and 'negative' experiences lose

> > their 'bite' and can often become a source of

> > wonder and humor. It will also

> > be noticed the experiences don't drive the Joy and

> > Peace, but rather the Joy

> > and Peace form the experiences, since they are

> > created from the inside out

> > and are not objectively present. IOW, it's not just

> > the same experiences that

> > are tollerated or even appreciated, but the

> > experiences themselves are

> > different as a reflection of the perceiver who now

> > colors everything with his own

> > sense of Joy and wonder.

> >

> > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > **************Planning your summer road trip? Check

> > out AOL Travel Guides.

> >

> >

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> >

>

>

>

>

____________________

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[Guest guest]

" There are already too many things known; much that must be

unlearned. " - Phil

 

Yup. Pretty much everything I know is useless. That's what I believed

all through my schooling. That's why I dropped out in grade nine. I

didn't need any of it. The only thing thing I really thought I should

know when I was in high school was how to play an electric guitar and

how to pick up chics. Even that proved useless!!

 

Rob

 

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> Hi Sujal

> I don't disagree with the practices you've outlined here because I

see that

> all things are happening precisely as they need to happen, and so

all such

> practices serve perfectly. In my case, the focus is both outward

and inward. The

> inward focus is where the 'looking' takes place, and the outside

acts as a

> mirror for that focus.

>

> To me, the attempt to see God in others is futile from the start by

virtue

> of the assumption that there are others in whom to see this God.

The seeking of

> virtue in otherness is merely an attempt to bias ones dualistic

perception,

> and the mind functions as a duality mechanism, and so it can only

pretend to

> see only such goodness. It's not so that the 'enlightened' master

does not

> see the idiocy and foolishness and cruelty of humanity. This does

not change,

> but the perfection of that expression is recognized as well as the

recognition

> that it is One's own expression and cannot be, and need not be,

other than

> it is.

>

> It's also not necessary to see that the world is an illusion as

such, it is

> the false egoic identity that must be revealed as illusion. The

world goes on

> in all it's illusory glory and the question of it's reality turns

out to have

> no significance at all. Desires cannot and do not need to end for

the

> apparent individual. Again, if you look to the masters you see

that preferences and

> desires remain, but there is no longer attachment to the outcome

of those

> desires. It's this attachment that results in suffering, and it can

be released

> by revealing the false nature of it, and so it is not so much a

focus on

> Truth that is helpful, since mind is not equiped to realize it

anyway, but

> rather the removal of the intense focus on the imaginary self,

which is

> potentially evident since it is mind that forms this focus. God is

already present. The

> Truth is already what you are. There are already too many things

known; much

> that must be unlearned.

>

> Phil

>

>

> In a message dated 4/7/2008 9:21:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> sujal_u writes:

>

> Dear Phil,

>

> I am a new member. I appreciate and support your

> asnwer to Rob.

> I would like to add the following.

>

> When your desires fade out then love for God

> increases.

> There are 2 paths. 1. Extrovert and 2. Introvert.

> No scripture is complete without explaining the both

> and so every great saint makes a note of it and points

> out the same.

>

> 1. In extrovert path, the devottee tries to see God

> 'in any form' in others. He tries to superimpose the

> same on others and later on when his devotes and

> surrenderance matures, he sees good and the same

> spirit pervading in everything which he sees. This is

> the dualistic approach. Later on he turns on to non

> dual approach which is introvert (Sri Nissargduttaji

> Maharaj's path). " So love all "

>

> 2. In introvert path or non-dual approach, the

> disciple or the meditator sees this world world as an

> illusion and rejects it and tries to know 'who am I'.

> He is (or tries to be) neutral in all the situations

> and tries to establish himself in the self.So " Love

> None "

>

> This 2 lines:

> " So love all " & " Love None " are the extreme and in

> practical application we sould make them as reference

> and try to reach to this pont.

>

> We are not free from desires and so maebe we cannot

> see god in our enemys or cannot be neutral in tsting

> times, as we all have moods.

>

> But constant practice, character building, meditation

> (very important), prayers and surrender to the

> almighty can definitely help us to reach this state

> where we can " love all or none " . A person can annouce

> this without fear only when he has realised the true

> self.

>

> Sinerely

>

> Sujal Upadhyay

>

>

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

[Guest guest]

The path ends in utter futility, if it ends at all. The best way to make sure it never ends is to pretend there's no point in walking it.

Phil

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/12/2008 10:33:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob.savarie writes:

"...the spiritual 'path' has been a series of 'little deaths'...." - PhilSome die, some don't. Somes just get lost on the path. Then there's those that'll believes they'll git somethin' out of bein' on a path. Not sures what it is exactly . . . .?RobNisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:>> > In a message dated 4/12/2008 8:34:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rob.savarie writes:> > Well, Phil, I can appreciate what you're saying here but I don't > quite get it. Maybe it's just way too abstract or something, I don't > know.> > If my day isn't going the way I expect it to, I get frustrated. When > I remember to drop my expectations, I realize nothing's really all > that important that I should feel frustrated about it.> > It usually takes me few minutes to calm down. I hate feeling > frustrated and I also hate the fact that my frustration was over > something unimportant.> > I like to think of my life and everything that happens around me and > to me is important somehow. It makes me feel like I matter in this > big universe. Truth is, I don't matter. And that kind of sucks . . .> > Oh well, so be it.> > Rob >

 

It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance.

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

 

He was the most enlightened unenlightened man ever to not exist!

 

Rob

 

Nisargadatta , manjit malhi <malhimanjit

wrote:

>

> Hi All

>

> What do you think about UG krishnamurthy.

>

>

> Nisargadatta: souldreamone: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 02:16:24 -

0400Re: Love all or none of it . . . .

Hi Sujal

> I don't disagree with the practices you've outlined here because I

see that all things are happening precisely as they need to happen,

and so all such practices serve perfectly. In my case, the focus is

both outward and inward. The inward focus is where the 'looking'

takes place, and the outside acts as a mirror for that focus.

>

> To me, the attempt to see God in others is futile from the start by

virtue of the assumption that there are others in whom to see this

God. The seeking of virtue in otherness is merely an attempt to bias

ones dualistic perception, and the mind functions as a duality

mechanism, and so it can only pretend to see only such goodness. It's

not so that the 'enlightened' master does not see the idiocy and

foolishness and cruelty of humanity. This does not change, but the

perfection of that expression is recognized as well as the

recognition that it is One's own expression and cannot be, and need

not be, other than it is.

>

> It's also not necessary to see that the world is an illusion as

such, it is the false egoic identity that must be revealed as

illusion. The world goes on in all it's illusory glory and the

question of it's reality turns out to have no significance at all.

Desires cannot and do not need to end for the apparent individual.

Again, if you look to the masters you see that preferences and

desires remain, but there is no longer attachment to the outcome of

those desires. It's this attachment that results in suffering, and it

can be released by revealing the false nature of it, and so it is not

so much a focus on Truth that is helpful, since mind is not equiped

to realize it anyway, but rather the removal of the intense focus on

the imaginary self, which is potentially evident since it is mind

that forms this focus. God is already present. The Truth is already

what you are. There are already too many things known; much that must

be unlearned.

>

> Phil

>

>

> In a message dated 4/7/2008 9:21:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

sujal_u writes:

> Dear Phil,I am a new member. I appreciate and support yourasnwer to

Rob. I would like to add the following.When your desires fade out

then love for Godincreases.There are 2 paths. 1. Extrovert and 2.

Introvert. No scripture is complete without explaining the bothand so

every great saint makes a note of it and pointsout the same.1. In

extrovert path, the devottee tries to see God'in any form' in others.

He tries to superimpose thesame on others and later on when his

devotes andsurrenderance matures, he sees good and the samespirit

pervading in everything which he sees. This isthe dualistic approach.

Later on he turns on to nondual approach which is introvert (Sri

NissargduttajiMaharaj's path). " So love all " 2. In introvert path or

non-dual approach, thedisciple or the meditator sees this world world

as anillusion and rejects it and tries to know 'who am I'. He is (or

tries to be) neutral in all the situationsand tries to establish

himself in the self.So " LoveNone " This 2 lines: " So love all " & " Love

None " are the extreme and inpractical application we sould make them

as referenceand try to reach to this pont.We are not free from

desires and so maebe we cannotsee god in our enemys or cannot be

neutral in tstingtimes, as we all have moods.But constant practice,

character building, meditation(very important), prayers and surrender

to thealmighty can definitely help us to reach this statewhere we

can " love all or none " . A person can annoucethis without fear only

when he has realised the trueself.SinerelySujal Upadhyay

>

>

>

>

> Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

>

_______________

> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.

> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 "

<Roberibus111 wrote:

 

> it's baba's gift to lift those illusions.

>

> but as long as you seem to enjoy playing with them,

>

> baba will not end them for you..

>

> but rather let them hold you in their arms.

>

> you and your illusions will end in due time.

>

> take comfort from this promise and do not be anxious.

>

> baba knows that you cannot understand nor appreciate his blessings.

>

> apparently continued suffering and long winded and silly

preachings...

>

> will remain your lot..

>

> for lots of years yet.

>

> .b bobji baba

>

***************

Okay, kewl beans! This I understand! But who's this Baba guy?

 

Rob

[Guest guest]

" ...the spiritual 'path' has been a series of 'little deaths'.... " -

Phil

 

Some die, some don't.

 

Somes just get lost on the path.

 

Then there's those that'll believes they'll git somethin' out of

bein' on a path. Not sures what it is exactly . . . .?

 

Rob

 

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/12/2008 8:34:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> rob.savarie writes:

>

> Well, Phil, I can appreciate what you're saying here but I don't

> quite get it. Maybe it's just way too abstract or something, I

don't

> know.

>

> If my day isn't going the way I expect it to, I get frustrated.

When

> I remember to drop my expectations, I realize nothing's really all

> that important that I should feel frustrated about it.

>

> It usually takes me few minutes to calm down. I hate feeling

> frustrated and I also hate the fact that my frustration was over

> something unimportant.

>

> I like to think of my life and everything that happens around me

and

> to me is important somehow. It makes me feel like I matter in this

> big universe. Truth is, I don't matter. And that kind of

sucks . . .

>

> Oh well, so be it.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

> Yeah, again, I think if we're honest we can all identify with that.

To me,

> the spiritual 'path' has been a series of 'little deaths' that you

allude to.

> No, I'm not really any more important than anything or anyone else.

There is

> no purpose to any of it. Choice is illusion. Cause/effect isn't

happening

> here. I can't cause myself to Realize Truth. I can't find ultimate

happiness. I

> can never be enlightened.

>

> These are all deaths, but then since the individual is a

misidentification,

> it makes perfect sense that it needs to disappear, and maybe that's

not a

> problem after all. Ya know?

>

> Phil

>

>

>

>

> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL

Money &

> Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Rob Savarie " <rob.savarie

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 "

> <Roberibus111@> wrote:

>

> > it's baba's gift to lift those illusions.

> >

> > but as long as you seem to enjoy playing with them,

> >

> > baba will not end them for you..

> >

> > but rather let them hold you in their arms.

> >

> > you and your illusions will end in due time.

> >

> > take comfort from this promise and do not be anxious.

> >

> > baba knows that you cannot understand nor appreciate his blessings.

> >

> > apparently continued suffering and long winded and silly

> preachings...

> >

> > will remain your lot..

> >

> > for lots of years yet.

> >

> > .b bobji baba

> >

> ***************

> Okay, kewl beans! This I understand! But who's this Baba guy?

>

> Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

the baba which can be identified..

 

is not the true baba.

 

the beans which you can eat..

 

are all your own.

 

..b b.b.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/11/2008 5:46:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> dennis_travis33 writes:

>

>

> true....

>

> we continue to ignore each so....no problem....

>

> you don't practise meditation....ok!

>

> you have some nice intiutions....ok!

>

> but where do you think are your intiutions etc are coming

> from?......other/except than from your Self?....

>

>

> Marc

>

>

>

> Show me where I suggested that intuition comes from something other

than the

> Self? Then you can show me where I said that I do not practice

meditation.

> See, this is why

> I've all but given up chatting with Booboo. I'd be spending all my

time

> correcting his misperceptions and denying his stories and

projections, and for

> what? What does that do for me? See?

>

> Phil

>

>

seem that everybody in here LOVE to " correct misperceptions and deny

projections " ....of all kind.....funny, no?....

 

what do you think is the reason of such behavior?....

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Hi there Phil,

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply again.

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

Are you saying there's a point to following the path that " ends in

utter futility? "

 

Is there a point to the " series of little deaths " you spoke of?

 

What have you gained from that " series of little deaths? "

 

Why did you have to die more than once to gain it?

 

Dying more than once implies a series of rebirths.

 

Are you free from that cycle yet?

 

Or are you still caught in it?

 

What do you believe you are?

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:

>

>

> The path ends in utter futility, if it ends at all. The best way to

make

> sure it never ends is to pretend there's no point in walking it.

> Phil

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 4/12/2008 10:33:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> rob.savarie writes:

>

> " ...the spiritual 'path' has been a series of 'little

deaths'.... " -

> Phil

>

> Some die, some don't.

>

> Somes just get lost on the path.

>

> Then there's those that'll believes they'll git somethin' out of

> bein' on a path. Not sures what it is exactly . . . .?

>

> Rob

>

> Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 4/12/2008 8:34:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > rob.savarie@ writes:

> >

> > Well, Phil, I can appreciate what you're saying here but I

don't

> > quite get it. Maybe it's just way too abstract or something, I

> don't

> > know.

> >

> > If my day isn't going the way I expect it to, I get frustrated.

> When

> > I remember to drop my expectations, I realize nothing's really

all

> > that important that I should feel frustrated about it.

> >

> > It usually takes me few minutes to calm down. I hate feeling

> > frustrated and I also hate the fact that my frustration was

over

> > something unimportant.

> >

> > I like to think of my life and everything that happens around

me

> and

> > to me is important somehow. It makes me feel like I matter in

this

> > big universe. Truth is, I don't matter. And that kind of

> sucks . . .

> >

> > Oh well, so be it.

> >

> > Rob

> >

>

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL

Money &

> Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 "

<Roberibus111 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Rob Savarie " <rob.savarie@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 "

> > <Roberibus111@> wrote:

> >

> > > it's baba's gift to lift those illusions.

> > >

> > > but as long as you seem to enjoy playing with them,

> > >

> > > baba will not end them for you..

> > >

> > > but rather let them hold you in their arms.

> > >

> > > you and your illusions will end in due time.

> > >

> > > take comfort from this promise and do not be anxious.

> > >

> > > baba knows that you cannot understand nor appreciate his

blessings.

> > >

> > > apparently continued suffering and long winded and silly

> > preachings...

> > >

> > > will remain your lot..

> > >

> > > for lots of years yet.

> > >

> > > .b bobji baba

> > >

> > ***************

> > Okay, kewl beans! This I understand! But who's this Baba guy?

> >

> > Rob

the baba which can be identified..

>

> is not the true baba.

>

> the beans which you can eat..

>

> are all your own.

>

> .b b.b.

>

 

Clever.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/2008 7:51:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob writes:

Hi there Phil,Thanks for taking the time to reply again. So, let me get this straight.Are you saying there's a point to following the path that "ends in utter futility?"Is there a point to the "series of little deaths" you spoke of?What have you gained from that "series of little deaths?"Why did you have to die more than once to gain it?Dying more than once implies a series of rebirths.Are you free from that cycle yet?Or are you still caught in it?What do you believe you are?Rob

 

 

Hi Rob

Yes, I'm still 'caught in that cycle'. The 'little deaths' I referred to are the realizations of futility I referred to. For example, most on a spiritual path have realized the futility of permanent fulfillment within the dualistic illusion, which may be why they got on the path to begin with. There are also things like realizing choice and cause/effect are illusions, that thoughts arise spontaneously and the ego belief is, itself a part of those thoughts, things like that. They're little deaths because ego gets slammed each time another part of the illusion is revealed for what it is. What's usually called ego death is the big Kahuna, and is coincident with Self Realization, which I've managed to avoid so far. Hehe.

 

Yes, the spiritual path always ends in futility for the one walking it, since the Realization of Truth is realizing that there is nobody walking it. Truth doesn't consist of knowledge about anything, and it was never hidden from view, so there's nothing that needs to be learned or done, just undone/unlearned. The one who walks the path never arrives at a destination, he just stops walking, and disappears. The point of the whole process is to fail; to vanish. Lao Tzu said "Failure is the means to success".

 

Phil

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