entrance&exit to/from the world dream....is absolutly free

September 27, 2007

the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

.....

" you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

or to don't enjoy It.....

....

there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing many

things within the world.....

as for example....

....reading this words

now

here

Marc

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

>

> ....

>

> " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> or to don't enjoy It.....

>

Oh wise Marc,

Tell me, who is the chooser ?

Werner

> ...

>

> there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing many

> things within the world.....

>

> as for example....

>

> ...reading this words

>

> now

>

> here

>

> Marc

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

> >

> > ....

> >

> > " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> > or to don't enjoy It.....

> >

>

> Oh wise Marc,

>

> Tell me, who is the chooser ?

>

> Werner

there is choosing but no such thing as a chooser.

not only the view of non-duality..but science as well.

if you look for a wave you got a wave..

if you look for a particle you got a particle..

neither one a are 'real'..

if you try and find out how 'fast' either one are 'going'..

you can't know where it is..

if you look for where it is..

you can't know it's velocity..

even the 'you' is unreal..

when the imaginary 'you' looks to 'see'..

then the imaginary 'thing' is presupposed and is fixed..

for that moment and all 'time.

and even 'time' is not real...

given the consideration of undetermined velocity..

velocity being a measurement of 'distance' through 'time'..

and unknowable if 'you' 'look' at the 'imaginary' 'thing'..

(particle or wave)..

not 'you' nor 'thing' nor 'motion' is knowable.

they are not 'real' or fundamental...

in any scientific nor spiritual sense.

it's all just 'happening' in and at the ghostly zoo.

ain't that enough to rot you socks off!

maybe you could pick up a primer on either science OR spirituality.

this is not hard stuff nor actually very deep.

..b b.b.(just another nobody)

> > there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing many

> > things within the world.....

> >

> > as for example....

> >

> > ...reading this words

> >

> > now

> >

> > here

> >

> > Marc

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

> >

> > ....

> >

> > " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> > or to don't enjoy It.....

> >

>

> Oh wise Marc,

>

> Tell me, who is the chooser ?

>

> Werner

the chooser can be found within the imaginary bubble

of " Werner " .....as for example....

the " chooser " is as real/unreal....as the ones.... " who " appeared in

the dream last night....

b.b.b. is right......no " chooser " realy....but " choosing "

.....

Marc

>

> > ...

> >

> > there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing many

> > things within the world.....

> >

> > as for example....

> >

> > ...reading this words

> >

> > now

> >

> > here

> >

> > Marc

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > >

> > > the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> > > or to don't enjoy It.....

> > >

> >

> > Oh wise Marc,

> >

> > Tell me, who is the chooser ?

> >

> > Werner

>

> the chooser can be found within the imaginary bubble

> of " Werner " .....as for example....

>

> the " chooser " is as real/unreal....as the ones.... " who " appeared in

> the dream last night....

>

> b.b.b. is right......no " chooser " realy....but " choosing "

>

> ....

>

> Marc

Marc,

To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose from.

But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose already

happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this and

not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is the

verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities in

this process of " choice " .

Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not enjoying

was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of babbling.

And now you are free to choose what to reply.

Werner

> >

> > > ...

> > >

> > > there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing many

> > > things within the world.....

> > >

> > > as for example....

> > >

> > > ...reading this words

> > >

> > > now

> > >

> > > here

> > >

> > > Marc

> > >

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> > > > or to don't enjoy It.....

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh wise Marc,

> > >

> > > Tell me, who is the chooser ?

> > >

> > > Werner

> >

> > the chooser can be found within the imaginary bubble

> > of " Werner " .....as for example....

> >

> > the " chooser " is as real/unreal....as the ones.... " who " appeared

in

> > the dream last night....

> >

> > b.b.b. is right......no " chooser " realy....but " choosing "

> >

> > ....

> >

> > Marc

>

> Marc,

>

> To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

from.

>

> But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose already

> happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

> that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this and

> not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is the

> verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities in

> this process of " choice " .

>

> Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not

enjoying

> was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of

babbling.

>

> And now you are free to choose what to reply.

>

> Werner

the reply is already " choosen " when you were written " your "

words.....

i know, Werner, ....you are very much into such scientific

concepts........you don't need to repeat many times....the same

story.....

you could choose....as for example....to write something

new.....no?........

but we can't expect anything " new " from you.....in knowing about your

attachments to such scientific concepts.....

such concepts just don't let you write something....new....

i mean, something interesing.....

i don't talk about " thoughts " choosing .......

thoughts just are of imaginary ego-mind.....bubbling....without any

meaning....at all.......

thoughts are the instruments of ignorance....searching to prove that

ignorance has some sense and meaning....except of bubbling.....

.....

still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

Marc

>

> > >

> > > > ...

> > > >

> > > > there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing

many

> > > > things within the world.....

> > > >

> > > > as for example....

> > > >

> > > > ...reading this words

> > > >

> > > > now

> > > >

> > > > here

> > > >

> > > > Marc

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Marc,

> >

> > To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

> from.

> >

> > But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose already

> > happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

> > that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this

and

> > not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is the

> > verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities in

> > this process of " choice " .

> >

> > Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not

> enjoying

> > was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of

> babbling.

> >

> > And now you are free to choose what to reply.

> >

> > Werner

>

> the reply is already " choosen " when you were written " your "

> words.....

>

> i know, Werner, ....you are very much into such scientific

> concepts........you don't need to repeat many times....the same

> story.....

> you could choose....as for example....to write something

> new.....no?........

> but we can't expect anything " new " from you.....in knowing about

your

> attachments to such scientific concepts.....

> such concepts just don't let you write something....new....

> i mean, something interesing.....

Sorry, Marc,

That I can't staisfy your greed for news.

Good news for me would be if there are signs of you starting to

ponder and learn from what I wrote and not just disparagingly calling

it " scientific concepts " .

>

> i don't talk about " thoughts " choosing .......

>

> thoughts just are of imaginary ego-mind.....bubbling....without any

> meaning....at all.......

> thoughts are the instruments of ignorance....searching to prove

that

> ignorance has some sense and meaning....except of bubbling.....

>

> ....

>

> still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

>

> up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

>

Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

Can you explain it to me ?

With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing way so I

can see that you really have understood what your are writing of and

not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

Werner

>

> Marc

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Marc,

> > >

> > > To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

> > from.

> > >

> > > But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose

already

> > > happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

> > > that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this

> and

> > > not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is

the

> > > verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities

in

> > > this process of " choice " .

> > >

> > > Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not

> > enjoying

> > > was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of

> > babbling.

> > >

> > > And now you are free to choose what to reply.

> > >

> > > Werner

> >

> > the reply is already " choosen " when you were written " your "

> > words.....

> >

> > i know, Werner, ....you are very much into such scientific

> > concepts........you don't need to repeat many times....the same

> > story.....

> > you could choose....as for example....to write something

> > new.....no?........

> > but we can't expect anything " new " from you.....in knowing about

> your

> > attachments to such scientific concepts.....

> > such concepts just don't let you write something....new....

> > i mean, something interesing.....

>

> Sorry, Marc,

>

> That I can't staisfy your greed for news.

>

> Good news for me would be if there are signs of you starting to

> ponder and learn from what I wrote and not just disparagingly

calling

> it " scientific concepts " .

....i'm not interested in your concepts...

such kind of concepts maybe it's of great pleasure for your imaginary

ego mind....seeking real Self.....

but.....real Self can't be understood by any concepts.....

>

> >

> > i don't talk about " thoughts " choosing .......

> >

> > thoughts just are of imaginary ego-mind.....bubbling....without

any

> > meaning....at all.......

> > thoughts are the instruments of ignorance....searching to prove

> that

> > ignorance has some sense and meaning....except of bubbling.....

> >

> > ....

> >

> > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> >

> > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> >

>

> Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

>

> Can you explain it to me ?

>

> With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing way so

I

> can see that you really have understood what your are writing of

and

> not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

>

> Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

.....real Self....or the Self.....

.....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

and of now conceptual understanding.....

so....you are waiting for some definitions from whoever....who need

to give you satisfaction.....

because....for some reason.....you can't get any satisfaction from

your Self.....

as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the starting

point to spirituality.....

you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

like little kids are playing around with some toys...

.....

you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

didn't read any books of Niz....

and as far i know about Ramana.....

his main teaching was Silence....

means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were restless minds

appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of knowledge.......but not

into Self

Marc

>

> Werner

>

> >

> > Marc

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > >

> > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > >

> > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > >

> >

> > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> >

> > Can you explain it to me ?

> >

> > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing way

so

> I

> > can see that you really have understood what your are writing of

> and

> > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> >

> > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

>

> ....real Self....or the Self.....

>

> ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> and of now conceptual understanding.....

>

> so....you are waiting for some definitions from whoever....who need

> to give you satisfaction.....

> because....for some reason.....you can't get any satisfaction from

> your Self.....

> as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the

starting

> point to spirituality.....

>

> you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

>

> like little kids are playing around with some toys...

>

> ....

>

> you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> didn't read any books of Niz....

>

> and as far i know about Ramana.....

>

> his main teaching was Silence....

>

> means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were restless minds

> appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of knowledge.......but

not

> into Self

>

Hell !

Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have no idea

what that could be ?

Werner

>

> Marc

>

> >

> > Werner

> >

> > >

> > > Marc

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> > > > or to don't enjoy It.....

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh wise Marc,

> > >

> > > Tell me, who is the chooser ?

> > >

> > > Werner

> >

> > the chooser can be found within the imaginary bubble

> > of " Werner " .....as for example....

> >

> > the " chooser " is as real/unreal....as the ones.... " who " appeared in

> > the dream last night....

> >

> > b.b.b. is right......no " chooser " realy....but " choosing "

> >

> > ....

> >

> > Marc

>

> Marc,

>

> To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose from.

>

> But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose already

> happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

> that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this and

> not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is the

> verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities in

> this process of " choice " .

>

> Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not enjoying

> was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of babbling.

>

> And now you are free to choose what to reply.

>

> Werner

to say:

" To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

from. " ...

is but choosing without a chooser.

to say:

" The decision what to choose already happened in the brain

BEFORE it gets conscious. " ..

presupposes 'time' as an actuality... which it is not.

to state any of the above is..

" either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of babbling. "

why do 'you' do that...

especially since 'you' are NOT.

believing any the above post is neither scientific nor spiritual.

it is pitiable

..b b.b.

>

> But there is no free choice.

> > > >

> > > > there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing many

> > > > things within the world.....

> > > >

> > > > as for example....

> > > >

> > > > ...reading this words

> > > >

> > > > now

> > > >

> > > > here

> > > >

> > > > Marc

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Marc,

> > >

> > > To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

> > from.

> > >

> > > But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose already

> > > happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

> > > that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this

> and

> > > not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is the

> > > verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities in

> > > this process of " choice " .

> > >

> > > Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not

> > enjoying

> > > was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of

> > babbling.

> > >

> > > And now you are free to choose what to reply.

> > >

> > > Werner

> >

> > the reply is already " choosen " when you were written " your "

> > words.....

> >

> > i know, Werner, ....you are very much into such scientific

> > concepts........you don't need to repeat many times....the same

> > story.....

> > you could choose....as for example....to write something

> > new.....no?........

> > but we can't expect anything " new " from you.....in knowing about

> your

> > attachments to such scientific concepts.....

> > such concepts just don't let you write something....new....

> > i mean, something interesing.....

>

> Sorry, Marc,

>

> That I can't staisfy your greed for news.

>

> Good news for me would be if there are signs of you starting to

> ponder and learn from what I wrote and not just disparagingly calling

> it " scientific concepts " .

>

> >

> > i don't talk about " thoughts " choosing .......

> >

> > thoughts just are of imaginary ego-mind.....bubbling....without any

> > meaning....at all.......

> > thoughts are the instruments of ignorance....searching to prove

> that

> > ignorance has some sense and meaning....except of bubbling.....

> >

> > ....

> >

> > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> >

> > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> >

>

> Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

>

> Can you explain it to me ?

>

> With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing way so I

> can see that you really have understood what your are writing of and

> not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

>

> Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

>

> Werner

if you don't know you never will.

in fact you cannot know THAT.

you either IS or you ain't.

it's like the pseudoscience that you don't understand.

nobody can explain to you what it really means.

even if they tried you wouldn't hear.

you merely believe what you want to believe.

that's a dumb belief.

it speaks only of the believer not the science the believer believes.

funny huh?

..b b.b.

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > > >

> > > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> > >

> > > Can you explain it to me ?

> > >

> > > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing way

> so

> > I

> > > can see that you really have understood what your are writing of

> > and

> > > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> > >

> > > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

> >

> > ....real Self....or the Self.....

> >

> > ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> > and of now conceptual understanding.....

> >

> > so....you are waiting for some definitions from whoever....who need

> > to give you satisfaction.....

> > because....for some reason.....you can't get any satisfaction from

> > your Self.....

> > as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the

> starting

> > point to spirituality.....

> >

> > you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

> >

> > like little kids are playing around with some toys...

> >

> > ....

> >

> > you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> > didn't read any books of Niz....

> >

> > and as far i know about Ramana.....

> >

> > his main teaching was Silence....

> >

> > means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were restless minds

> > appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of knowledge.......but

> not

> > into Self

> >

>

> Hell !

>

> Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

>

> How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have no idea

> what that could be ?

>

> Werner

'you' can't ever be interested.

and 'THAT' which is Real Self if you like..

has no interest in 'you'.

" THAT " is Highly Indifferent to all else.

seek like 'you' believe 'you' are seeking and thou shalt never find.

..b b.b.

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > > >

> > > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> > >

> > > Can you explain it to me ?

> > >

> > > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing

way

> so

> > I

> > > can see that you really have understood what your are writing

of

> > and

> > > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> > >

> > > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

> >

> > ....real Self....or the Self.....

> >

> > ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> > and of now conceptual understanding.....

> >

> > so....you are waiting for some definitions from whoever....who

need

> > to give you satisfaction.....

> > because....for some reason.....you can't get any satisfaction

from

> > your Self.....

> > as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the

> starting

> > point to spirituality.....

> >

> > you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

> >

> > like little kids are playing around with some toys...

> >

> > ....

> >

> > you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> > didn't read any books of Niz....

> >

> > and as far i know about Ramana.....

> >

> > his main teaching was Silence....

> >

> > means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were restless

minds

> > appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of knowledge.......but

> not

> > into Self

> >

>

> Hell !

>

> Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

>

> How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have no idea

> what that could be ?

>

> Werner

>

Werner.....you are maybe one of such entities.....who seem to realy

have no choice about.....to be interested in yourSelf....or not

Marc

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " .b bobji baba "

<Roberibus111 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > the world is as real/unreal....as the dream last night

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > " you " have the choice to enjoy It.....

> > > > > or to don't enjoy It.....

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh wise Marc,

> > > >

> > > > Tell me, who is the chooser ?

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > >

> > > the chooser can be found within the imaginary bubble

> > > of " Werner " .....as for example....

> > >

> > > the " chooser " is as real/unreal....as the ones.... " who "

appeared in

> > > the dream last night....

> > >

> > > b.b.b. is right......no " chooser " realy....but " choosing "

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > Marc

> >

> > Marc,

> >

> > To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

from.

> >

> > But there is no free choice. The decision what to choose already

> > happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. And when

> > that " choice " got cnscious thought will say " I have chosen this

and

> > not that " . But thought never is chosing anything. Thought is the

> > verbal result of the brains preliminary unconscious activities in

> > this process of " choice " .

> >

> > Therefore your suggestion to choose between enjoying and not

enjoying

> > was either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of

babbling.

> >

> > And now you are free to choose what to reply.

> >

> > Werner

>

> to say:

>

> " To choose means there is feee choice and alternatives to choose

>

> from. " ...

>

> is but choosing without a chooser.

>

> to say:

>

> " The decision what to choose already happened in the brain

>

> BEFORE it gets conscious. " ..

>

> presupposes 'time' as an actuality... which it is not.

>

> to state any of the above is..

>

> " either a joke or just mindless babbling for the sake of babbling. "

>

> why do 'you' do that...

>

> especially since 'you' are NOT.

>

> believing any the above post is neither scientific nor spiritual.

>

> it is pitiable

>

> .b b.b.

yes....what shall we do with uninterested Werner??....lol

he told that : " there is no free choice. The decision what to choose

already

> > happened in the brain BEFORE it gets conscious. " .....

maybe there is " brain " missing......?......therefore he feel to don't

get any choice....from anywhere....

Marc

>

> > But there is no free choice.

> > > > >

> > > > > there is no choice about imaginary " you " .... " who " is doing

many

> > > > > things within the world.....

> > > > >

> > > > > as for example....

> > > > >

> > > > > ...reading this words

> > > > >

> > > > > now

> > > > >

> > > > > here

> > > > >

> > > > > Marc

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > > > >

> > > > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> > > >

> > > > Can you explain it to me ?

> > > >

> > > > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a convincing

> way

> > so

> > > I

> > > > can see that you really have understood what your are writing

> of

> > > and

> > > > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> > > >

> > > > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

> > >

> > > ....real Self....or the Self.....

> > >

> > > ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> > > and of now conceptual understanding.....

> > >

> > > so....you are waiting for some definitions from whoever....who

> need

> > > to give you satisfaction.....

> > > because....for some reason.....you can't get any satisfaction

> from

> > > your Self.....

> > > as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the

> > starting

> > > point to spirituality.....

> > >

> > > you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

> > >

> > > like little kids are playing around with some toys...

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> > > didn't read any books of Niz....

> > >

> > > and as far i know about Ramana.....

> > >

> > > his main teaching was Silence....

> > >

> > > means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were restless

> minds

> > > appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of

knowledge.......but

> > not

> > > into Self

> > >

> >

> > Hell !

> >

> > Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

> >

> > How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have no

idea

> > what that could be ?

> >

> > Werner

> >

> Werner.....you are maybe one of such entities.....who seem to realy

> have no choice about.....to be interested in yourSelf....or not

>

Maybe, maybe not, Marc,

I am not interested how good you are in guessing. I want to know what

this damn real Self is.

Werner

>

> Marc

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Can you explain it to me ?

> > > > >

> > > > > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a

convincing

> > way

> > > so

> > > > I

> > > > > can see that you really have understood what your are

writing

> > of

> > > > and

> > > > > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

> > > >

> > > > ....real Self....or the Self.....

> > > >

> > > > ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> > > > and of now conceptual understanding.....

> > > >

> > > > so....you are waiting for some definitions from

whoever....who

> > need

> > > > to give you satisfaction.....

> > > > because....for some reason.....you can't get any satisfaction

> > from

> > > > your Self.....

> > > > as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the

> > > starting

> > > > point to spirituality.....

> > > >

> > > > you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

> > > >

> > > > like little kids are playing around with some toys...

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> > > > didn't read any books of Niz....

> > > >

> > > > and as far i know about Ramana.....

> > > >

> > > > his main teaching was Silence....

> > > >

> > > > means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were restless

> > minds

> > > > appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of

> knowledge.......but

> > > not

> > > > into Self

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hell !

> > >

> > > Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

> > >

> > > How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have no

> idea

> > > what that could be ?

> > >

> > > Werner

> > >

> > Werner.....you are maybe one of such entities.....who seem to

realy

> > have no choice about.....to be interested in yourSelf....or not

> >

>

> Maybe, maybe not, Marc,

>

> I am not interested how good you are in guessing. I want to know

what

> this damn real Self is.

>

> Werner

>

> >

> > Marc

the real Self is giving " you " all the knowledge.....

at the right time....

at the right place....

" you " need....

in order to stay being real Self.......

......

real Self IS all knowledge......

.....

real Self is formless, changless, infinite

.....

real Self Is Selfawareness

.....

real Self is Brahman

.....

real Self is infinite Peace

.....

real Self just.....Is....all there Is....for real

.....

and....

and......and.......and......

Marc

Ps: ignorance give you all " you " need....

at any time.....

in order to stay being ignorant

.....

therefore.....don't be satisfied with ignorance.....in/of any form

ignorance about/of real Self....is only ignorance existing....for real

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr "

<wwoehr@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Can you explain it to me ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a

> convincing

> > > way

> > > > so

> > > > > I

> > > > > > can see that you really have understood what your are

> writing

> > > of

> > > > > and

> > > > > > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

> > > > >

> > > > > ....real Self....or the Self.....

> > > > >

> > > > > ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> > > > > and of now conceptual understanding.....

> > > > >

> > > > > so....you are waiting for some definitions from

> whoever....who

> > > need

> > > > > to give you satisfaction.....

> > > > > because....for some reason.....you can't get any

satisfaction

> > > from

> > > > > your Self.....

> > > > > as long such attitude persists......you are even not at the

> > > > starting

> > > > > point to spirituality.....

> > > > >

> > > > > you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

> > > > >

> > > > > like little kids are playing around with some toys...

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> > > > > didn't read any books of Niz....

> > > > >

> > > > > and as far i know about Ramana.....

> > > > >

> > > > > his main teaching was Silence....

> > > > >

> > > > > means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were

restless

> > > minds

> > > > > appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of

> > knowledge.......but

> > > > not

> > > > > into Self

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hell !

> > > >

> > > > Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

> > > >

> > > > How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have no

> > idea

> > > > what that could be ?

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > > >

> > > Werner.....you are maybe one of such entities.....who seem to

> realy

> > > have no choice about.....to be interested in yourSelf....or not

> > >

> >

> > Maybe, maybe not, Marc,

> >

> > I am not interested how good you are in guessing. I want to know

> what

> > this damn real Self is.

> >

> > Werner

> >

> > >

> > > Marc

>

> the real Self is giving " you " all the knowledge.....

> at the right time....

> at the right place....

>

> " you " need....

>

> in order to stay being real Self.......

>

> .....

>

> real Self IS all knowledge......

>

> ....

>

> real Self is formless, changless, infinite

>

> ....

>

> real Self Is Selfawareness

>

> ....

>

> real Self is Brahman

>

> ....

>

> real Self is infinite Peace

>

> ....

>

> real Self just.....Is....all there Is....for real

>

> ....

>

> and....

>

> and......and.......and......

>

> Marc

>

> Ps: ignorance give you all " you " need....

> at any time.....

>

> in order to stay being ignorant

>

> ....

>

> therefore.....don't be satisfied with ignorance.....in/of any form

>

> ignorance about/of real Self....is only ignorance existing....for

real

>

Ok, ok, Marc,

Now, after heaving read what you have read or heard about the " real

Self " I am asking you and please, do not escape as usual into peace,

love and harmony, and no excuse whatsoever:

Are you, Marc, abiding in the real Self and being aware of it ?

Werner

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr "

> <wwoehr@>

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > > > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > still, Werner,..... " you " can enjoy It.....or not....

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > up to " you " ....i mean, up to real Self

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oops ! " Real Self " ? What is that, Marc ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Can you explain it to me ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With explaining I mean that you are doing it in a

> > convincing

> > > > way

> > > > > so

> > > > > > I

> > > > > > > can see that you really have understood what your are

> > writing

> > > > of

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > not just repeating what Ramana or Niz have said.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, what please is the " real Self " ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ....real Self....or the Self.....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ....as i wrote you here before.....is of no concept....

> > > > > > and of now conceptual understanding.....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > so....you are waiting for some definitions from

> > whoever....who

> > > > need

> > > > > > to give you satisfaction.....

> > > > > > because....for some reason.....you can't get any

> satisfaction

> > > > from

> > > > > > your Self.....

> > > > > > as long such attitude persists......you are even not at

the

> > > > > starting

> > > > > > point to spirituality.....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > you are just playing around with nice little concepts....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > like little kids are playing around with some toys...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > you mentionned Niz and Ramana.....

> > > > > > didn't read any books of Niz....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and as far i know about Ramana.....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > his main teaching was Silence....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > means, he only talked sometimes.....when there were

> restless

> > > > minds

> > > > > > appearing.....like Werner......hungry for/of

> > > knowledge.......but

> > > > > not

> > > > > > into Self

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hell !

> > > > >

> > > > > Marc, you stiil didn't expain to me what is the " real Self "

> > > > >

> > > > > How can I be interested in the real Self as long as I have

no

> > > idea

> > > > > what that could be ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Werner

> > > > >

> > > > Werner.....you are maybe one of such entities.....who seem to

> > realy

> > > > have no choice about.....to be interested in yourSelf....or

not

> > > >

> > >

> > > Maybe, maybe not, Marc,

> > >

> > > I am not interested how good you are in guessing. I want to

know

> > what

> > > this damn real Self is.

> > >

> > > Werner

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Marc

> >

> > the real Self is giving " you " all the knowledge.....

> > at the right time....

> > at the right place....

> >

> > " you " need....

> >

> > in order to stay being real Self.......

> >

> > .....

> >

> > real Self IS all knowledge......

> >

> > ....

> >

> > real Self is formless, changless, infinite

> >

> > ....

> >

> > real Self Is Selfawareness

> >

> > ....

> >

> > real Self is Brahman

> >

> > ....

> >

> > real Self is infinite Peace

> >

> > ....

> >

> > real Self just.....Is....all there Is....for real

> >

> > ....

> >

> > and....

> >

> > and......and.......and......

> >

> > Marc

> >

> > Ps: ignorance give you all " you " need....

> > at any time.....

> >

> > in order to stay being ignorant

> >

> > ....

> >

> > therefore.....don't be satisfied with ignorance.....in/of any form

> >

> > ignorance about/of real Self....is only ignorance existing....for

> real

> >

>

> Ok, ok, Marc,

>

> Now, after heaving read what you have read or heard about the " real

> Self " I am asking you and please, do not escape as usual into

peace,

> love and harmony, and no excuse whatsoever:

>

> Are you, Marc, abiding in the real Self and being aware of it ?

>

> Werner

yes

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Ok, ok, Marc,

> >

> > Now, after heaving read what you have read or heard about

the " real

> > Self " I am asking you and please, do not escape as usual into

> peace,

> > love and harmony, and no excuse whatsoever:

> >

> > Are you, Marc, abiding in the real Self and being aware of it ?

> >

> > Werner

>

> yes

>

No ?

Werner

>

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Ok, ok, Marc,

> > >

> > > Now, after heaving read what you have read or heard about

> the " real

> > > Self " I am asking you and please, do not escape as usual into

> > peace,

> > > love and harmony, and no excuse whatsoever:

> > >

> > > Are you, Marc, abiding in the real Self and being aware of it ?

> > >

> > > Werner

> >

> > yes

> >

>

> No ?

>

> Werner

a restless mind is never free.

Be Still and Know..

" I " am with 'you'..

as 'you', for 'you', by ''you' through 'you' in 'you', of 'you.

any you 'you' knows this..

but not all yo-yos do as you here exemplify.

But Lo!

And Ho!

not all yo-yos do as you here exemplify.

..b b.b.

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " .b bobji baba "

<Roberibus111 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

> > <dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Ok, ok, Marc,

> > > >

> > > > Now, after heaving read what you have read or heard about

> > the " real

> > > > Self " I am asking you and please, do not escape as usual into

> > > peace,

> > > > love and harmony, and no excuse whatsoever:

> > > >

> > > > Are you, Marc, abiding in the real Self and being aware of it ?

> > > >

> > > > Werner

> > >

> > > yes

> > >

> >

> > No ?

> >

> > Werner

>

> a restless mind is never free.

>

> Be Still and Know..

>

> " I " am with 'you'..

>

> as 'you', for 'you', by ''you' through 'you' in 'you', of 'you.

>

> any you 'you' knows this..

>

> but not all yo-yos do as you here exemplify.

>

> But Lo!

>

> And Ho!

>

> not all yo-yos do as you here exemplify.

>

> .b b.b.

that bears repeating for clarity..

not all yo-yos do as you here exemplify.

three times makes perfect as they say!

..b b.b.

September 27, 2007

Werner: You are enamored of certain concepts. They are clear and

satisfying.But--they are just concepts and do not exist in the land of

Being--except AS concepts.In the land of Being concepts are just

patterns of energy signifying nothing.If you take them at face value

you are like the guy who had a parrot that said " E equals MC squared "

every morning.The guy thought the parrot was a genius. Z

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen wrote:

>

> Werner: You are enamored of certain concepts. They are clear and

> satisfying.But--they are just concepts and do not exist in the land

of

> Being--except AS concepts.In the land of Being concepts are just

> patterns of energy signifying nothing.

Tom,

What is difference beteen being and consciousness ?

There is none.

> If you take them at face value

> you are like the guy who had a parrot that said " E equals MC

squared "

> every morning.The guy thought the parrot was a genius. Z

>

And I think that your pointing at my " concepts " and comparing me with

a man thinking his parrot is a genius is just your excuse for your

sluggish mind being too lazy to learn somesthing new.

You are just a lazy bum, Tom.

Werner

September 27, 2007

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote:

> >

> > Werner: You are enamored of certain concepts. They are clear and

> > satisfying.But--they are just concepts and do not exist in the land

> of

> > Being--except AS concepts.In the land of Being concepts are just

> > patterns of energy signifying nothing.

>

> Tom,

>

> What is difference beteen being and consciousness ?

>

> There is none.

>

> > If you take them at face value

> > you are like the guy who had a parrot that said " E equals MC

> squared "

> > every morning.The guy thought the parrot was a genius. Z

> >

>

> And I think that your pointing at my " concepts " and comparing me with

> a man thinking his parrot is a genius is just your excuse for your

> sluggish mind being too lazy to learn somesthing new.

>

> You are just a lazy bum, Tom.

>

> Werner

there is NOTHING 'new'...

Ecclesiastes 1 : 2–11.

Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher,

vanity of vanities! All is vanity.

What do people gain from all the toil

at which they toil under the sun?

A generation goes, and a generation comes,

but the earth remains forever.

The sun rises and the sun goes down,

and hurries to the place where it rises.

The wind blows to the south,

and goes around to the north;

round and round goes the wind,

and on its circuits the wind returns.

All streams run to the sea,

but the sea is not full;

to the place where the streams flow,

there they continue to flow.

All things are wearisome,

more than one can express;

the eye is not satisfied with seeing,

or the ear filled with hearing.

What has been is what will be,

and what has been done is what will be done;

there is nothing new under the sun.

Is there a thing of which it is said,

" See, this is new " ?

It has already been,

in the ages before us.

The people of long ago are not remembered,

nor will there be any remembrance

of people yet to come

by those who come after them.

OR:

There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old

things we don't know.

Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

US author & satirist (1842 - 1914)

of course all of this was said moments later from the time it was

actually commanded to be said by:

the Unconscious...

The Lord...

Satan (ooooohhh)....

or even..

ala Allah.... or Jehovah.... or Werner the Non-Learner

:-)

..b b.b.

September 27, 2007

>

> You are just a lazy bum, Tom.

>

> Werner

>

Werner: I never met a man who wasn't doing the best he could--and the

only thing he could. Z

Sign In

entrance&exit to/from the world dream....is absolutly free

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