Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > attempting to > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere > > > > > with > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > particularly > > > > > of > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > territory " > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > > better > > > > > to > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > > > > might be > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > > decide > > > > > to > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > > confusion > > > > > upon > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, > > > could > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying to > > > be > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > > > trying > > > > > to > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, > > > but > > > > > a > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > circumstances > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his > > > or > > > > > her > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > ************************* > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > > > > > Good stuff! I'm not so sure about that either. It could very well > > > be > > > > > that the world's happening to a dead me. I don't know that I feel > > > > > dead to the world; my intuition tells me that I'm very much alive > > > to > > > > > it. And I trust that. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, perhaps the world is dead and I'm alive. > > > Again, my > > > > > spidey senses tell me that's not true, either. I feel the world > > > is > > > > > very much alive with all kinds of things happening around and to > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > I feel better adhering to a life affirming philosophy. The world > > > is > > > > > alive, I am alive; and it's all good. > > > > > > > > > > If I were to adopt the other view that the world is dead and I'm > > > > > dead, that just depresses me. And being a living human being, > > > > > concerned with its own survival, I will avoid that which brings > > > me > > > > > pain and move toward that which brings me pleasure. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, affirming Life, reverencing It is my conditioning. Maybe > > > other > > > > > people have, through no fault of their own, been conditioned to > > > deny > > > > > Life. > > > > > > > > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or what we > > > feel. > > > > > We're not in control. > > > > > > > > > > Body does whatever it does on its own, no help from our self- > > > concepts > > > > > and other-concepts. Philosophies do not mean a damned thing to > > > the > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this is the " even more distorted dream " Shakespear > > > intuited > > > > > and we're both really dead? > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To mistake one's perceptions for reality is the dream. > > > > > > > > When you are dreaming at night......everything appears quite > > > > real.....and yet those people and mountains exist only within your > > > own > > > > swirling mnemonic debris. > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be said of your waking world. > > > > > > > > That apperception is available to a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > ******************************** > > > My growing children and their needs; my spouse and her needs; my > > > parents' aging and their needs; my father's recovery from cancer and > > > his needs...swirling mnemonic debris? Am I dreaming all of it? > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > All of that is the Great Machine.....grinding on as it must. > > There is dreaming.......but no dreamer. > > The dream and the dreamer are inseparable. > > The content of consciousness is consciousness itself. > > > > > There is nothing beyond the dream. > > > > toombaru > ************************************** Then I shall dream of hope, abundance and prosperity. I shall dream of joy, love, and peace. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > attempting to > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere > > > > > with > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > particularly > > > > > of > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > territory " > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > > better > > > > > to > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > > > > might be > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > > decide > > > > > to > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > > confusion > > > > > upon > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, > > > could > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying to > > > be > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > > > trying > > > > > to > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, > > > but > > > > > a > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > circumstances > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his > > > or > > > > > her > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > ************************* > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > > > > > Good stuff! I'm not so sure about that either. It could very well > > > be > > > > > that the world's happening to a dead me. I don't know that I feel > > > > > dead to the world; my intuition tells me that I'm very much alive > > > to > > > > > it. And I trust that. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, perhaps the world is dead and I'm alive. > > > Again, my > > > > > spidey senses tell me that's not true, either. I feel the world > > > is > > > > > very much alive with all kinds of things happening around and to > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > I feel better adhering to a life affirming philosophy. The world > > > is > > > > > alive, I am alive; and it's all good. > > > > > > > > > > If I were to adopt the other view that the world is dead and I'm > > > > > dead, that just depresses me. And being a living human being, > > > > > concerned with its own survival, I will avoid that which brings > > > me > > > > > pain and move toward that which brings me pleasure. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, affirming Life, reverencing It is my conditioning. Maybe > > > other > > > > > people have, through no fault of their own, been conditioned to > > > deny > > > > > Life. > > > > > > > > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or what we > > > feel. > > > > > We're not in control. > > > > > > > > > > Body does whatever it does on its own, no help from our self- > > > concepts > > > > > and other-concepts. Philosophies do not mean a damned thing to > > > the > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this is the " even more distorted dream " Shakespear > > > intuited > > > > > and we're both really dead? > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To mistake one's perceptions for reality is the dream. > > > > > > > > When you are dreaming at night......everything appears quite > > > > real.....and yet those people and mountains exist only within your > > > own > > > > swirling mnemonic debris. > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be said of your waking world. > > > > > > > > That apperception is available to a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > ******************************** > > > My growing children and their needs; my spouse and her needs; my > > > parents' aging and their needs; my father's recovery from cancer and > > > his needs...swirling mnemonic debris? Am I dreaming all of it? > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > All of that is the Great Machine.....grinding on as it must. > > There is dreaming.......but no dreamer. > > The dream and the dreamer are inseparable. > > The content of consciousness is consciousness itself. > > > > > There is nothing beyond the dream. > > > > toombaru there is no dream! though there are dreamers it would seem. good luck with that and happy slumber. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > *************** > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those attempting to > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere with > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - particularly of > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered territory " > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's better to > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > might be > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who decide to > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds confusion upon > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, could > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this body. > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying to be > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues trying to > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, but a > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the circumstances > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his or her > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of nothing thing? > > > > .b b.b. > > Nothing happens. > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's ridiculous. > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is included. > > -- D. how derisory! ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > > attempting to > > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and > interfere > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > > particularly > > > > > > of > > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > > territory " > > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that > it's > > > > better > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? > There > > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those > who > > > > decide > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > > > confusion > > > > > > upon > > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this > dream, > > > > could > > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of > this > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is > trying to > > > > be > > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one > continues > > > > trying > > > > > > to > > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to > escape, > > > > but > > > > > > a > > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > > circumstances > > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to > create a > > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier > gives his > > > > or > > > > > > her > > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************* > > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > > > > > > > Good stuff! I'm not so sure about that either. It could > very well > > > > be > > > > > > that the world's happening to a dead me. I don't know that > I feel > > > > > > dead to the world; my intuition tells me that I'm very much > alive > > > > to > > > > > > it. And I trust that. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, perhaps the world is dead and I'm alive. > > > > Again, my > > > > > > spidey senses tell me that's not true, either. I feel the > world > > > > is > > > > > > very much alive with all kinds of things happening around > and to > > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel better adhering to a life affirming philosophy. The > world > > > > is > > > > > > alive, I am alive; and it's all good. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to adopt the other view that the world is dead > and I'm > > > > > > dead, that just depresses me. And being a living human > being, > > > > > > concerned with its own survival, I will avoid that which > brings > > > > me > > > > > > pain and move toward that which brings me pleasure. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, affirming Life, reverencing It is my conditioning. > Maybe > > > > other > > > > > > people have, through no fault of their own, been > conditioned to > > > > deny > > > > > > Life. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or > what we > > > > feel. > > > > > > We're not in control. > > > > > > > > > > > > Body does whatever it does on its own, no help from our > self- > > > > concepts > > > > > > and other-concepts. Philosophies do not mean a damned thing > to > > > > the > > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this is the " even more distorted dream " Shakespear > > > > intuited > > > > > > and we're both really dead? > > > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To mistake one's perceptions for reality is the dream. > > > > > > > > > > When you are dreaming at night......everything appears quite > > > > > real.....and yet those people and mountains exist only within > your > > > > own > > > > > swirling mnemonic debris. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be said of your waking world. > > > > > > > > > > That apperception is available to a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > ******************************** > > > > My growing children and their needs; my spouse and her needs; > my > > > > parents' aging and their needs; my father's recovery from > cancer and > > > > his needs...swirling mnemonic debris? Am I dreaming all of it? > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of that is the Great Machine.....grinding on as it must. > > > > There is dreaming.......but no dreamer. > > > > The dream and the dreamer are inseparable. > > > > The content of consciousness is consciousness itself. > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing beyond the dream. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > ************************************** > Then I shall dream of hope, abundance and prosperity. I shall dream > of joy, love, and peace. > > Silver :-) ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > *************** > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those attempting to > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere > > with > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - particularly > > of > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered territory " > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's better > > to > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > might be > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who decide > > to > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds confusion > > upon > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, could > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this body. > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying to be > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues trying > > to > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, but > > a > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the circumstances > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his or > > her > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > ************************* > > Hi Dan, > > > > Good stuff! I'm not so sure about that either. It could very well be > > that the world's happening to a dead me. I don't know that I feel > > dead to the world; my intuition tells me that I'm very much alive to > > it. And I trust that. > > > > On the other hand, perhaps the world is dead and I'm alive. Again, my > > spidey senses tell me that's not true, either. I feel the world is > > very much alive with all kinds of things happening around and to me. > > > > I feel better adhering to a life affirming philosophy. The world is > > alive, I am alive; and it's all good. > > > > If I were to adopt the other view that the world is dead and I'm > > dead, that just depresses me. And being a living human being, > > concerned with its own survival, I will avoid that which brings me > > pain and move toward that which brings me pleasure. > > > > Thus, affirming Life, reverencing It is my conditioning. Maybe other > > people have, through no fault of their own, been conditioned to deny > > Life. > > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or what we feel. > > We're not in control. > > Yes. If the " we " does not pertain, the issue of control dissolves. > > Defining what life is has no relevance (for whom) and philosophy goes > out the window! > > > Body does whatever it does on its own, no help from our self- concepts > > and other-concepts. Philosophies do not mean a damned thing to the > > body. > > > > Perhaps this is the " even more distorted dream " Shakespear intuited > > and we're both really dead? > > Yes, this is what I was getting at. > > When was the first death? > > How many times has it happened? > > To whom? > > In what way is this experience now able to be determined as being > before death or after death? > > Only in relation to a body/mind-concept. > > Without reference to any conceptuality, where does the body begin or > end? Where is its inside or outside? To whom does it belong? > > Is it an object? How can you tell? > > When touch happens, is that occurring inside or outside oneself? > > -- Dan > ***************** I define death as the complete cessation of body-mind activity. In deep sleep, am I dead? I am not aware of any activity, in deep sleep, inside or outside my body-mind. Is that fact proof that my body-mind is dead? Or is it merely proof that I am unaware of any self-awareness in deep sleep? Perhaps I just don't remember being aware in deep sleep? After all, memory fails me. And yet, I remember arising from deep sleep again and again. Or is it, rather, that I imagine remembering? Or, for better or worse, is it that I dream that I imagine remembering? I dream of imagining that I remember having this recurring dream of coming out of what I can only describe as the silent womb of unawareness. Or, reemerging out of a state of deep unconscious peace into a place of sometimes joyous, sometimes painful activity. And then, I dream of imagining that I remember reentering the womb once again. Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan, wrote, " The life on the surface seems to be the real life, because it is in this life that all joy is experienced. " And he also wrote, " In the silent life there is no joy but only peace. The soul's original being is peace and its nature is joy, both of which work against each other. This is the hidden cause of all life's tragedy. " Quotes are from: (THE MYSTICISM OF SOUND-The Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan; CHAPTER II-Vibrations; http://sufimessage.com/mysticism-of- sound/vibrations.html) Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > > <dan330033@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > > > attempting to > > > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and > > interfere > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > > > particularly > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > > > territory " > > > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that > > it's > > > > > better > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? > > There > > > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those > > who > > > > > decide > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > > > > confusion > > > > > > > upon > > > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this > > dream, > > > > > could > > > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of > > this > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is > > trying to > > > > > be > > > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one > > continues > > > > > trying > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to > > escape, > > > > > but > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > > > circumstances > > > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to > > create a > > > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier > > gives his > > > > > or > > > > > > > her > > > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************* > > > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good stuff! I'm not so sure about that either. It could > > very well > > > > > be > > > > > > > that the world's happening to a dead me. I don't know that > > I feel > > > > > > > dead to the world; my intuition tells me that I'm very much > > alive > > > > > to > > > > > > > it. And I trust that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, perhaps the world is dead and I'm alive. > > > > > Again, my > > > > > > > spidey senses tell me that's not true, either. I feel the > > world > > > > > is > > > > > > > very much alive with all kinds of things happening around > > and to > > > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel better adhering to a life affirming philosophy. The > > world > > > > > is > > > > > > > alive, I am alive; and it's all good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to adopt the other view that the world is dead > > and I'm > > > > > > > dead, that just depresses me. And being a living human > > being, > > > > > > > concerned with its own survival, I will avoid that which > > brings > > > > > me > > > > > > > pain and move toward that which brings me pleasure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, affirming Life, reverencing It is my conditioning. > > Maybe > > > > > other > > > > > > > people have, through no fault of their own, been > > conditioned to > > > > > deny > > > > > > > Life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or > > what we > > > > > feel. > > > > > > > We're not in control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Body does whatever it does on its own, no help from our > > self- > > > > > concepts > > > > > > > and other-concepts. Philosophies do not mean a damned thing > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this is the " even more distorted dream " Shakespear > > > > > intuited > > > > > > > and we're both really dead? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To mistake one's perceptions for reality is the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you are dreaming at night......everything appears quite > > > > > > real.....and yet those people and mountains exist only within > > your > > > > > own > > > > > > swirling mnemonic debris. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be said of your waking world. > > > > > > > > > > > > That apperception is available to a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************** > > > > > My growing children and their needs; my spouse and her needs; > > my > > > > > parents' aging and their needs; my father's recovery from > > cancer and > > > > > his needs...swirling mnemonic debris? Am I dreaming all of it? > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of that is the Great Machine.....grinding on as it must. > > > > > > There is dreaming.......but no dreamer. > > > > > > The dream and the dreamer are inseparable. > > > > > > The content of consciousness is consciousness itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing beyond the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > ************************************** > > Then I shall dream of hope, abundance and prosperity. I shall dream > > of joy, love, and peace. > > > > Silver > > > :-) > > .b b.b. > ;-) Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > > attempting to > > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and > interfere > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > > particularly > > > > > > of > > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > > territory " > > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that > it's > > > > better > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? > There > > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those > who > > > > decide > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > > > confusion > > > > > > upon > > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this > dream, > > > > could > > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of > this > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is > trying to > > > > be > > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one > continues > > > > trying > > > > > > to > > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to > escape, > > > > but > > > > > > a > > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > > circumstances > > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to > create a > > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier > gives his > > > > or > > > > > > her > > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************* > > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > > > > > > > Good stuff! I'm not so sure about that either. It could > very well > > > > be > > > > > > that the world's happening to a dead me. I don't know that > I feel > > > > > > dead to the world; my intuition tells me that I'm very much > alive > > > > to > > > > > > it. And I trust that. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, perhaps the world is dead and I'm alive. > > > > Again, my > > > > > > spidey senses tell me that's not true, either. I feel the > world > > > > is > > > > > > very much alive with all kinds of things happening around > and to > > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel better adhering to a life affirming philosophy. The > world > > > > is > > > > > > alive, I am alive; and it's all good. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to adopt the other view that the world is dead > and I'm > > > > > > dead, that just depresses me. And being a living human > being, > > > > > > concerned with its own survival, I will avoid that which > brings > > > > me > > > > > > pain and move toward that which brings me pleasure. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, affirming Life, reverencing It is my conditioning. > Maybe > > > > other > > > > > > people have, through no fault of their own, been > conditioned to > > > > deny > > > > > > Life. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or > what we > > > > feel. > > > > > > We're not in control. > > > > > > > > > > > > Body does whatever it does on its own, no help from our > self- > > > > concepts > > > > > > and other-concepts. Philosophies do not mean a damned thing > to > > > > the > > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this is the " even more distorted dream " Shakespear > > > > intuited > > > > > > and we're both really dead? > > > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To mistake one's perceptions for reality is the dream. > > > > > > > > > > When you are dreaming at night......everything appears quite > > > > > real.....and yet those people and mountains exist only within > your > > > > own > > > > > swirling mnemonic debris. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be said of your waking world. > > > > > > > > > > That apperception is available to a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > ******************************** > > > > My growing children and their needs; my spouse and her needs; > my > > > > parents' aging and their needs; my father's recovery from > cancer and > > > > his needs...swirling mnemonic debris? Am I dreaming all of it? > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of that is the Great Machine.....grinding on as it must. > > > > There is dreaming.......but no dreamer. > > > > The dream and the dreamer are inseparable. > > > > The content of consciousness is consciousness itself. > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing beyond the dream. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > ************************************** > Then I shall dream of hope, abundance and prosperity. I shall dream > of joy, love, and peace. > > Silver If someone says there is nothing beyond the dream ... Be aware as this very nothing! Now, no enticement to inhabit a dream. With hope comes loss, with abundance comes poverty - this is the way of relative arisings/departings. Live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor departs! -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > ***************** > I define death as the complete cessation of body-mind activity. That is the concept of a person who considers self to be alive and later to die. A concept is not the actuality. > In deep sleep, am I dead? How can you know what it is to be dead? You can only form a concept. > I am not aware of any activity, in deep sleep, inside or outside my > body-mind. > > Is that fact proof that my body-mind is dead? > > Or is it merely proof that I am unaware of any self-awareness in deep > sleep? > > Perhaps I just don't remember being aware in deep sleep? > > After all, memory fails me. Awareness, as it is, can't be registered in memory. > And yet, I remember arising from deep sleep again and again. > > Or is it, rather, that I imagine remembering? You remember remembering that you remembered. Apparently. :-) > Or, for better or worse, is it that I dream that I imagine > remembering? > > I dream of imagining that I remember having this recurring dream of > coming out of what I can only describe as the silent womb of > unawareness. > > Or, reemerging out of a state of deep unconscious peace into a place > of sometimes joyous, sometimes painful activity. > > And then, I dream of imagining that I remember reentering the womb > once again. So, the question now is: has something truly emerged as separate from the " womb of nothing, " so to speak. Something that had its own life, which could take its life, or could have it taken ... Otherwise, there is only what is. And concepts that arise and depart, experiences that arise and depart. Each moment of experience is at it is. Thoughts can't really interpret experience, thoughts are aspects of experience. The thought that one is alive or will be dead, is just an aspect of experience. Experience arising now, departing now. Is experience arising life? Is experience departing death? What is the background against which it arises and departs? Is that alive or dead? Is breathing in, life? Is no breath coming in, death? What is the background against which the experience of breathing in and out nonvolitionally appears? -- Dan > Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan, wrote, " The life on the surface > seems to be the real life, because it is in this life that all joy is > experienced. " > > And he also wrote, " In the silent life there is no joy but only > peace. The soul's original being is peace and its nature is joy, both > of which work against each other. This is the hidden cause of all > life's tragedy. " > > Quotes are from: > > (THE MYSTICISM OF SOUND-The Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan; > CHAPTER II-Vibrations; http://sufimessage.com/mysticism-of- > sound/vibrations.html) > > Silver > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those attempting to > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere > with > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > particularly of > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered territory " > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > better to > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > might be > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > decide to > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds confusion > upon > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, could > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this body. > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying to be > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > trying to > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, > but a > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the circumstances > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his > or her > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of nothing thing? > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > Nothing happens. > > > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's ridiculous. > > > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is included. > > > > -- D. > > > how derisory! > > .b b.b. only if there is someone who can personalize the statement. D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > attempting to > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere > > with > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > particularly of > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > territory " > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > better to > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > > might be > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > decide to > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds confusion > > upon > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, > could > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this body. > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying to be > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > > trying to > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, > > but a > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > circumstances > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his > > or her > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of nothing > thing? > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > Nothing happens. > > > > > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's ridiculous. > > > > > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is included. > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > how derisory! > > > > .b b.b. > > only if there is someone who can personalize the statement. > > D. what statement? what does that mean? ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > attempting to > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and interfere > > > with > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > particularly of > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > territory " > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > > better to > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > > > might be > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > > decide to > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds confusion > > > upon > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, > > could > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying > to be > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > > > trying to > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to escape, > > > but a > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > circumstances > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his > > > or her > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > > > > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > > > > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of nothing > > thing? > > > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > Nothing happens. > > > > > > > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's > ridiculous. > > > > > > > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is included. > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > how derisory! > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > only if there is someone who can personalize the statement. > > > > D. > > > > > what statement? > > what does that mean? > > .b b.b. One asking earnestly, finds the answer close to hand. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > <Roberibus111@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > attempting to > > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and > interfere > > > > with > > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > > particularly of > > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > territory " > > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > > > better to > > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? There > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > > > decide to > > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > confusion > > > > upon > > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this dream, > > > could > > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying > > to be > > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > > > > trying to > > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to > escape, > > > > but a > > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > circumstances > > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to create a > > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier gives his > > > > or her > > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > > > > > > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > > > > > > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of nothing > > > thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing happens. > > > > > > > > > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's > > ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is included. > > > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > > > > how derisory! > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > only if there is someone who can personalize the statement. > > > > > > D. > > > > > > > > > > what statement? > > > > what does that mean? > > > > .b b.b. > > One asking earnestly, finds the answer close to hand. > > -- D. all statements are ridiculous... all 'people' are fools.... nobody's right unless someone is wrong... neither right nor wrong ring true with me. earnestly i asked as to which statement you were referring to. which statement in all of the above that anyone could possibly personalize? i'm just not here with you dan. i just was asking a very simple question. i wasn't asking for trite moralizing. but thanks anyway. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > > <Roberibus111@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > > attempting to > > > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and > > interfere > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > > > particularly of > > > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > > territory " > > > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > > > > better to > > > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? > There > > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > > > > decide to > > > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > confusion > > > > > upon > > > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this > dream, > > > > could > > > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death of this > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is trying > > > to be > > > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one continues > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to > > escape, > > > > > but a > > > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > > circumstances > > > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to > create a > > > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier > gives his > > > > > or her > > > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of > nothing > > > > thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's > > > ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is included. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how derisory! > > > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > only if there is someone who can personalize the statement. > > > > > > > > D. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what statement? > > > > > > what does that mean? > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > One asking earnestly, finds the answer close to hand. > > > > -- D. > > > all statements are ridiculous... > > all 'people' are fools.... > > nobody's right unless someone is wrong... > > neither right nor wrong ring true with me. > > earnestly i asked as to which statement you were referring to. > > which statement in all of the above that anyone could possibly > personalize? > > i'm just not here with you dan. > > i just was asking a very simple question. > > i wasn't asking for trite moralizing. > > but thanks anyway. > > .b b.b. Bob - O.K., let's try again. It can only be derisory, if it's personalized. -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > ******************************* > Yes. > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor departs, " > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free will, > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of changing > the outcomes. > > I shall not be creating. > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused and > unmanifested. Not so. All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very nothing. > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything to stir > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. You don't. Nothing does. > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and painless > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. Not at all. Nothing is any different than it actually is now. Everything is different than it was thought to be. > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of existence I'd > like to live. There's no choice involved. There isn't an alternative. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > <Roberibus111@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > > > <Roberibus111@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > > > So long as blood courses through the veins of those > > > > > attempting to > > > > > > > > > > know / become as nothing and concepts intervene and > > > interfere > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > their efforts to know / be nothing, so shall they > > > > > > > > > > misunderstand " nothing is happening. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blood is this no-thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no objectification that has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is *it* -- it's only one's own objectification - > > > > > > particularly of > > > > > > > > > self - that is the misunderstanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shakespearean contemplation of what the " undiscovered > > > > > territory " > > > > > > > > > > might hold in store can lead to the conclusion that it's > > > > > > better to > > > > > > > > > > stick around in spite of suffering because, who knows? > > There > > > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > > > a place of even greater suffering awaiting all those who > > > > > > decide to > > > > > > > > > > exit " the easy way out. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was his intuition, I think, that often suicide adds > > > confusion > > > > > > upon > > > > > > > > > confusion, so that trying to escape the images of this > > dream, > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > lead to an even more distorted dream after the death > of this > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one trying to escape is not separate from what is > trying > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > escaped. So, one is aware as this *now* -- or one > continues > > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > > > avoid this truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide, though, may sometimes not be a means to try to > > > escape, > > > > > > but a > > > > > > > > > recognition of the best action one can take under the > > > > > circumstances > > > > > > > > > (e.g., a person who is terminally ill doesn't want to > > create a > > > > > > > > > financial and emotional burden to family; a soldier > > gives his > > > > > > or her > > > > > > > > > life to save several others). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either all is happening or you're already dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is an either/or statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole shift thing sounds pretty shifty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are we talking about the night shift or the day shift here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or are we just shifting the blame off onto some kind of > > nothing > > > > > thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That statement is open to so much misinterpretation, it's > > > > ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And if one knows what it means, the statement also is > included. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how derisory! > > > > > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > > > only if there is someone who can personalize the statement. > > > > > > > > > > D. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what statement? > > > > > > > > what does that mean? > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > One asking earnestly, finds the answer close to hand. > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > all statements are ridiculous... > > > > all 'people' are fools.... > > > > nobody's right unless someone is wrong... > > > > neither right nor wrong ring true with me. > > > > earnestly i asked as to which statement you were referring to. > > > > which statement in all of the above that anyone could possibly > > personalize? > > > > i'm just not here with you dan. > > > > i just was asking a very simple question. > > > > i wasn't asking for trite moralizing. > > > > but thanks anyway. > > > > .b b.b. > > Bob - > > O.K., let's try again. > > It can only be derisory, if it's personalized. > > -- Dan this is your understanding. O.K. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 23, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > ******************************* > > Yes. > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor departs, " > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free will, > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of changing > > the outcomes. > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused and > > unmanifested. > > Not so. > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very nothing. > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything to stir > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and painless > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > Not at all. > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of existence I'd > > like to live. > > There's no choice involved. > > There isn't an alternative. > > -- D. > ******************** It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > ******************************* Yes. If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor departs, " then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free will, manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of changing the outcomes. I shall not be creating. Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused and unmanifested. S. ******************** Not so. All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very nothing. D. ---> You take a leap of faith believing *all* arises from and as *nothing.* Identifying them as the same crates confusion. Furthermore, if your belief turns out to be correct, then - and only then - could you jump from there and draw the larger conclusion that, therefore, you exist simultaneously as *All* and *Nothing.* S. ******************** If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything to stir things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, alternating between degrees of joy and pain. S. You don't. Nothing does. D. ---> I / nothing what? I / nothing takes the backseat as an Observer? Or, I / nothing does anything to stir things up? Or I / nothing exists in dual states, alternating between degrees of joy and pain? S. ********************* Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and painless peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. S. Not at all. Nothing is any different than it actually is now. Everything is different than it was thought to be. D. ---> Not if thoughts are things. Then your second statement would hold, " Nothing is any different than it actually is now. " And if that is the case, then why change what is into something it is not? Why believe something is nothing? As I said, it seems to me you have invested heavily into your belief in nothing. S. ************************* That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of existence I'd like to live. S. There's no choice involved. There isn't an alternative. D. ---> Sure there is, if you believe there is. We're talking about metaphysical concepts here and who's to say which is right? S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > ******************************* > > > Yes. > > > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor > departs, " > > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free will, > > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of > changing > > > the outcomes. > > > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused and > > > unmanifested. > > > > Not so. > > > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very nothing. > > > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything to > stir > > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and > painless > > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > > > Not at all. > > > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of existence > I'd > > > like to live. > > > > There's no choice involved. > > > > There isn't an alternative. > > > > -- D. > > > ******************** > It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. > > Silver What is distorting awareness is not the other guy's investments, my friend. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > ******************************* > Yes. > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor departs, " > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free will, > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of changing > the outcomes. > > I shall not be creating. > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused and > unmanifested. > > S. > ******************** > Not so. > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very nothing. > > D. > > ---> You take a leap of faith believing *all* arises from and as > *nothing.* Identifying them as the same crates confusion. Confusion? For who? > Furthermore, if your belief turns out to be correct, then - and only > then - could you jump from there and draw the larger conclusion that, > therefore, you exist simultaneously as *All* and *Nothing.* It's not a conclusion. It is what is, as is, prior to " beginning " anything. > S. > ******************** > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything to stir > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > S. > > You don't. Nothing does. > > D. > > ---> I / nothing what? I / nothing takes the backseat as an Observer? > Or, I / nothing does anything to stir things up? Or I / nothing > exists in dual states, alternating between degrees of joy and pain? Nothing exists in between states, moving from one into another. > S. > ********************* > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and painless > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > S. > > Not at all. > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > D. > > ---> Not if thoughts are things. Then your second statement would > hold, " Nothing is any different than it actually is now. " And if that > is the case, then why change what is into something it is not? Why > believe something is nothing? As I said, it seems to me you have > invested heavily into your belief in nothing. > > S. It has nothing to do with maintaining a belief. Far from it. When belief collapses, and orientation around " I " collapses, *this* is what is, is all that is. > ************************* > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of existence I'd > like to live. > > S. > > There's no choice involved. > > There isn't an alternative. > > D. > > ---> Sure there is, if you believe there is. We're talking about > metaphysical concepts here and who's to say which is right? I'm not talking about holding a concept, or doing anything with a concept. I am using concepts to discuss this, which is the release of any identification with/as conceptual reality. Not having a concept that there is a release from concept. The direct knowing/being, which doesn't depend on any words someone said about it. It has nothing to do with deciding as what reality one wants to live. It involves deep inquiry into the structure of that very wanting-desiring and the associated not-wanting/fearing that comes along with it. If I identify with my wants, how can I inquire into the structure of how those wants arise as if determining a self? -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor > > departs, " > > > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free will, > > > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of > > changing > > > > the outcomes. > > > > > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused and > > > > unmanifested. > > > > > > Not so. > > > > > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very nothing. > > > > > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything to > > stir > > > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > > > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > > > > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > > > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and > > painless > > > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > > > > > Not at all. > > > > > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > > > > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > > > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of existence > > I'd > > > > like to live. > > > > > > There's no choice involved. > > > > > > There isn't an alternative. > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > ******************** > > It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. > > > > Silver > > What is distorting awareness is not the other guy's investments, my > friend. > > -- D. > ****************************** I didn't say anything about distorting awareness. Nevertheless, beliefs do not distort awareness. Neither does investing heavily into them. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor > > > departs, " > > > > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free > will, > > > > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of > > > changing > > > > > the outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > > > > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused > and > > > > > unmanifested. > > > > > > > > Not so. > > > > > > > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very > nothing. > > > > > > > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything > to > > > stir > > > > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > > > > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > > > > > > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > > > > > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and > > > painless > > > > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > > > > > > > Not at all. > > > > > > > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > > > > > > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > > > > > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of > existence > > > I'd > > > > > like to live. > > > > > > > > There's no choice involved. > > > > > > > > There isn't an alternative. > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > ******************** > > > It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. > > > > > > Silver > > > > What is distorting awareness is not the other guy's investments, my > > friend. > > > > -- D. > > > ****************************** > I didn't say anything about distorting awareness. Nevertheless, > beliefs do not distort awareness. Neither does investing heavily into > them. > > Silver Oh my! Well, thanks for sharing your opinion about that! -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises nor > > > > departs, " > > > > > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising free > > will, > > > > > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of > > > > changing > > > > > > the outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - unused > > and > > > > > > unmanifested. > > > > > > > > > > Not so. > > > > > > > > > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very > > nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do anything > > to > > > > stir > > > > > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual states, > > > > > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > > > > > > > > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > > > > > > > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and > > > > painless > > > > > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > > > > > > > > > Not at all. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > > > > > > > > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > > > > > > > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of > > existence > > > > I'd > > > > > > like to live. > > > > > > > > > > There's no choice involved. > > > > > > > > > > There isn't an alternative. > > > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > ******************** > > > > It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > What is distorting awareness is not the other guy's investments, my > > > friend. > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > ****************************** > > I didn't say anything about distorting awareness. Nevertheless, > > beliefs do not distort awareness. Neither does investing heavily into > > them. > > > > Silver > > Oh my! > > Well, thanks for sharing your opinion about that! > > -- D. > ************************ Neither did I imply that beliefs were bad, nor that investing in them were bad. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises > nor > > > > > departs, " > > > > > > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising > free > > > will, > > > > > > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of > > > > > changing > > > > > > > the outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - > unused > > > and > > > > > > > unmanifested. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not so. > > > > > > > > > > > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very > > > nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do > anything > > > to > > > > > stir > > > > > > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual > states, > > > > > > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and > > > > > painless > > > > > > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of > > > existence > > > > > I'd > > > > > > > like to live. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no choice involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't an alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > > > ******************** > > > > > It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > What is distorting awareness is not the other guy's > investments, my > > > > friend. > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > ****************************** > > > I didn't say anything about distorting awareness. Nevertheless, > > > beliefs do not distort awareness. Neither does investing heavily > into > > > them. > > > > > > Silver > > > > Oh my! > > > > Well, thanks for sharing your opinion about that! > > > > -- D. > > > ************************ > Neither did I imply that beliefs were bad, nor that investing in them > were bad. > > Silver > ************************* Awareness of awareness may be blocked by beliefs, opinions, concepts, ideas...but awareness as is remains undistorted. I don't know if I'm making myself clear? Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I " live as *this timeless now* which neither arises > nor > > > > > departs, " > > > > > > > then I shall not exist as an active being, excercising > free > > > will, > > > > > > > manipulating events happening in the now, with the aim of > > > > > changing > > > > > > > the outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall not be creating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rather, I shall exist in a state of pure potential - > unused > > > and > > > > > > > unmanifested. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not so. > > > > > > > > > > > > All manifestation co-arises seamlessly from/as this very > > > nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I take the backseat as an Observer and don't do > anything > > > to > > > > > stir > > > > > > > things up a little, then I shall not exist in dual > states, > > > > > > > alternating between degrees of joy and pain. > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't. Nothing does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead, I shall exist in an altered state of joyless and > > > > > painless > > > > > > > peace, unchanging, immovable and plant-like. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing is any different than it actually is now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everything is different than it was thought to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is the logical conclusion but it's not the type of > > > existence > > > > > I'd > > > > > > > like to live. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no choice involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't an alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > > > > > ******************** > > > > > It seems to me you've invested heavily into that belief. > > > > > > > > > > Silver > > > > > > > > What is distorting awareness is not the other guy's > investments, my > > > > friend. > > > > > > > > -- D. > > > > > > > ****************************** > > > I didn't say anything about distorting awareness. Nevertheless, > > > beliefs do not distort awareness. Neither does investing heavily > into > > > them. > > > > > > Silver > > > > Oh my! > > > > Well, thanks for sharing your opinion about that! > > > > -- D. > > > ************************ > Neither did I imply that beliefs were bad, nor that investing in them > were bad. > > Silver At some point, one may look deeply into how investment in belief occurs. Not " out there, for someone else, " which doesn't take much, but right here, now, which takes all. Now, the distortion of awareness is apparent. This has nothing to do with bad or good. It's just observing how an activity works. And, if the distortion of awareness is apparent, that very clarity is the end of distortion. Again, this has nothing to do with anything being bad or good - it's an observation of an activity, the formation of self. -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver wrote: > > > ************************* > Awareness of awareness may be blocked by beliefs, opinions, concepts, > ideas...but awareness as is remains undistorted. I don't know if I'm > making myself clear? > > Silver This no-thing has never been distorted. Awareness, though, can be distorted by investment. Investment forms object relations, emotional tendencies such as attraction and repulsion -- which always assume the self existing, a central objectification. With no investment, awareness is not gripped by any object. With no object relations, sense of a self in existence dissolves. Even the very subtle object called " awareness " dissolves. Now, no-thing is. And no object has ever appeared, and awareness, as nothing to be aware of. Everything previously misunderstood as objects, awareness, experiences .... is clearly this very no-thing. -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
