Guest guest Report post Posted February 5, 2007 After many questions, inquiries, introspection, reflections on suffering, the LAST question I encountered was: I shouldn't suffer. Is that true? I noticed that my foolish, 'egoic', deluded and selfish belief in this 'false' idea had often caused me far more pain than any real suffering. Further, it often also blocked many useful lessons and growth opportunities that 'suffering' provides! I noticed that my belief in this false idea was the basis of my numerous 'false' searches to 'get rid of' suffering too... But, when that Very IDEA was questioned and found it false, I was often left without ANY reason to... 'escape' the Present Moment! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 6, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > > If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying > to alleviate it for myself and others? > > Silver > for some....suffering is the prove a remaining ego-mind....they are attached too..... means, they are as attached to suffering as they are attached to the ego-mind Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > > Is there anything which is not " useful " ? > > Has God/Creation/Existence created anything > which is not " useful " ? > > Is God/Creation/Existence a " fool " and it > creates and persists with things which are > useless and unnecessary? > > {{{{These are questions for your God to answer.}}}} > > YOU are not that different than " my " God! > > {{{Are you saying that I am the Creator of your world? Our worlds are > very different. Apparently, yours is populated with gods and words > and ideas, ideals, concepts of suffering humans. Mine has nothing of > the sort.}}} > ***************** > To me, suffering is one way > God/Creation/Universe " talks " to me. > [And, once I understand its message...] > > {{{{No doubt your God " talks " to you through making you suffer. I am > not doubting what you say.}}}} > > Sure... > > Like you might say/do something that can make > me 'suffer' if I say/do something that you > see as 'deserving suffering'. > > {{{If I were anything like the god you somehow think that I am, I > might. But since I'm not, your statement above does not apply.}}} > ***************** > Love is the way I talk to the > God/Creation/Universe. > > {{{{Okay...so your God makes you suffer and you are in a loving > relationship with Her. > > That is " one " thing that she does but, > not the only thing. > > Love is one thing that I do > but, not the " only " thing. > > {{{If you assign anthropomorphic qualities to this god of yours, what > you say might make some sense, I suppose.}}} > ***************** > {{{She communicates suffering to you while you respond to Her in a > loving way.... Have you understood Her messages?}}}} > > Not all of them. > > {{{Why not? Is there a language barrier between you or something?}}} > ***************** > Ability to 'feel', 'accept' and 'understand' > 'suffering' is one of the Greatest gift that > humans have because, that TRULY open many doors... > > {{{I need a bit more than that if I am to agree with what you are > saying.}}}} > > Sure, > maybe, you need more 'suffering' ;-) > > Best, > ac > > {{{Okay, well, I guess that's the end of this discussion then. Take > care of yourself, buddy. Enjoy a life of suffering. I'm just content > enough to understand it and accept it. I'll go about my business of > helping to alleviate suffering wherever I see it if I can, while you > go on contemplating its 'benefit' to others. Have a good night!}}} > The problem of suffering contains two elements: The first element is the existential suffering that no one knows about....because it truly belongs to no-one. The second one is that suffering everyone creates in his/her ignorance about who suffers and why suffering is existential. Now, here we can be of 'skillful means' to be intrinsically involved in the process of unfolding both its cause and its solution. IMHO. That's what I am here to do. So are you. Love, Anna Nice to see you ((((((*Silver*))))))) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > > If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying > to alleviate it for myself and others? > > Silver Because you're getting something out of trying, would be my guess. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069@> > wrote: > > > > If suffering is such a useful experience, > then why do I bother trying > to alleviate it for myself and others? > > > Silver > > Is there anything which is not " useful " ? > > Has God/Creation/Existence created anything > which is not " useful " ? > > Is God/Creation/Existence a " fool " and it > creates and persists with things which are > useless and unnecessary? Nothing is out of place, because it's impossible for anything to be out of place. Nothing needs to have a use, because everything already is necessary and included in everything else, as it is, with no division. The purpose is *now* which is no purpose at all. Just what is. All of creation includes all of destruction, and vice versa. Nothing is created that isn't destroyed. You could say the purpose of anything created is to be destroyed, in its time. And you could also say the time is always now. And so it is. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 *This* which is free of suffering, has no division within it. Thus, this cannot be considered as a person, a personal possession, or a personal experience. Persons look for an end to their suffering. They are the suffering they are looking for an end to. As they are not, suffering is not. As the claim of personal existence arises, suffering is there along with it. To be free of suffering is to be free of personal location. To be free is to have never had a location for self from before any beginning. Simply put, this is as it is. -- D. (nothing new below) Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > GuruRatings , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , anna <anna@> wrote: > > > > After many questions, inquiries, > > introspection, reflections on > > suffering, the LAST question > > I encountered was: > > > > I shouldn't suffer. > > > > Is that true? > > > > I noticed that my foolish, 'egoic', deluded and selfish > > belief in this 'false' idea often caused me more > > pain than any real suffering. Further, it often also > > blocked many useful lessons and growth opportunities > > that 'suffering' provides! > > > > I noticed that my belief in this false idea > > was the basis of my numerous 'false' searches > > to 'get rid of' suffering too... > > > > But, when that Very IDEA was questioned and found it > false, > > > > I was often left without ANY reason to... > > 'escape' the Present Moment! > > ---------------- > > > > Adithya, > > > > Here is what I have come to in the past six months and I > think it is from acim. I find that when I can apply this, > I do not experience emotional pain, suffering. > > > Do you still need to apply it again and again? > > Or, have you really become " free " of pain and suffering. > > In my experience, no one is free of suffering, no one > should be and no one needs to be. > > > Pain is among the most powerful " communicators " ! It is one > of the Most Effective and Direct way that the > Universe/God/Creation " talks " to us. Being 'deaf' to this > communication is neither necessary nor useful. > > > > In fact, I have this written out on a note > > card on my computer desk. Now, I say remember because I > am conditioned to respond in egoic ways and those always lead to > suffering. > > > What we often call 'egoic' way; is often just the result > of little 'misunderstanding'! It is based on false ideas > and three of these utterly false ideas are: > > - I should not suffer. > > - I should be happy. > > - My wishes should be fulfilled. > > I have noticed that even after spending years " searching " - > many spiritual 'seekers' are still unwilling to give up > these ideas. In fact, these three ideas often start search, > sustain the search and many times they survive even after > the search is deemed 'fulfilled'! Yet, in my mind, these > are among most basic misunderstanding that we have. > > > > > > > The first thing I realized was that most of my > perceptions are based on the past > > For a very good reason: > > All " knowledge " comes from Past and we are a 'knowledge > based' animal. That is among our most vital strengths. > > > > > and I have not reexamined these in the light of the > present. I saw further that I am very much like a robot > acting on past programing. > > > > For a Very Good reason: > > This is the way humans are 'designed' to function. This is > what enables us to 'multi task'. This is what allows us to > function effectively without having to learn same thing > again and again. This is how 'evolution' takes place and > most importantly because our 'sub conscious' is greatly > more effective in performing what it has learnt than our > conscious. It just needs some training, guidance and > practice that's all. > > Sub-conscious runs our body. It runs our heart, it pumps > blood, it breathes, it regulates our sleep, it regulates > our temperature, it regulates our hormones and� it also > drives our cars and� most importantly it does most our > thinking! > > And, it does a WONDERFUL job pretty much everywhere. I > think, thinking is the only job that it ends up doing > somewhat poorly and I think, thinking is the job which can > improve DRAMATICALLY with some 'Conscious' participation! > > I think, only thing that we might benefit by continuing to > do 'consciously' is� thinking! > > > > > I did not previously see that my perceptions were more > often than not incorrect so I was acting on beliefs I > picked up in my past. > > Sure... > > > > > Though these may sound simple, they definitely work for > me and when I am able to utilize them and not fall back into > conditioned responses, I have peace and contentment. > > Sure... > > What I find even more important is whether that " process " > is still 'conscious' [i.e. you have to remember to do it] > or if it has already become automatic. The second happens > when the sub-conscious gets 'trained' to think, act and > behave in the " new " way. I have seen that sub-conscious is > one of the BEST asset that we have but, sometimes it needs > to be 'fed', 'guided', 'molded' and 'trained' to function > in desired way through Conscious. > > > > > > 1. Judge no one > > I see 'judging' is part of 'knowledge' and among one of > the Most Basic Human Trait. By 'judging' all we are trying > to do is to 'predict' 'future' behavior and it is among our > most basic 'survival' traits. 'Not judging' sure sounds > very nice and " cool " spiritually and " politically " - yet, > in my observation, there has never been a human who doesn't > judge. It is neither necessary nor useful. But yes, some > 'observation', 'guidance' and 'correction' by Conscious is > important here too! > > > > 2. Forgive utterly > > In my experience, " forgiving " is not something you can > " do " ! In fact, whenever you try to " do " it - at the best, > you will end up 'pretending'! Forgiveness is the side > effect of RIGHT understanding. It comes with understanding > that what someone DID - was not really his/her fault > [sometimes, because, they didn't really have any other > choice!]. Sometimes forgiveness also comes because we > understand that the universe doesn't have to be " about me " > or " for me " and that the things/people can and should be > the way they are! > > > > > 3. Resist nothing > > In my experience, we exist only because you resist! > > Resistance can surely mean " pain " many times yet, when > done with right 'understanding' and with 'consciousness' it > is the way of Human Growth and Evolution! And, in my mind, > that is one reason why we are here! > > In my mind, > our " personal " pleasure/pain/suffering/salvation is far less > important that what it means at the grander scale - at the scale of > that which WILL " outlast " us [something like the Universe, > Humanity, " life " for example�]! And, whether we 'believe' > it or not - it is ALREADY True! Universe and everybody > around us is ALREADY " programmed " to treat us that way! > And, when we try to make it the OTHER way [i.e. my > " personal " suffering/salvation is more important all else] > the universe does [and should] attempt to fight or abandon > us! > > > > > > This first one has to do with seeing that we are not > different from each other. We all want to be free of suffering. > > > Yes, many kids want toys - even when it means fighting > with some other kids. > > > > We all want peace and > > contentment. > > Yes, many kids want clean and dry diapers - even when it > means waking us parents and neighbors. > > > > We go about this in different ways depending upon our > > individual level of awareness but what we want is the > same. > > Or, we might " grow " and question that very want! > > We might realize that we are here on an 'invitation' and > that we owe our each breathe and each drop of our blood to > the Universe - to the creative Evolutionary, Unfolding, > Progressing 'leela'! Realizing that we might SEE that this > 'leela' has ALREADY done enough for us - perhaps, now, it > is my turn to participate in it 'Consciously'! > > > So if my > > neighbor does things that initially irritate me, I > remind myself that she and I are the same. We want the same thing > and all of us do as well as we can. > > > Yes, two kids often want SAME toy and many times end up > fighting. > > > > With that thought, judging leaves me. But I've yet to > > discover a way to get around self judging. > > 'Self judging' can be a good way towards growth as long it > is 'understood' and done consciously. > > > [...] > > > > > Now, I do agree with you that we can learn from painful > experiences. > > But I swear I have had those all my life and never > learned a damn thing. > > > > May of use have done similar things! > > Maybe, because we are so " busy " resisting it and in trying > to 'escape' to no pain zone that we were not really > available to Consciously SEE, understand and learn from it! > > In my experience, suffering and resistance [including the > " wish " to be somewhere else] go together! It is impossible > to suffer [for long] without resisting it and without > wishing to be somewhere else! Absent the resistance and the > wish to be somewhere else� Pain is just quick and very > effective message - decode it, understand it and use it! It > is just a friend. > > > > I read once that a difference between humans and > laboratory ratswere that rats would stop a behavior once there was > longer a pleasant outcome, some reward. The point was that humans > will continue the same behavior over and over again without a > pleasant outcome or reward. > > I am not sure of that. We might 'persist' little longer > but, only because we somehow " see " a possibility! > > Remember the story: > > Tie a baby elephant with heavy iron chain that it can't > break and once the elephant grows up it never tries to > break again even when it is tied with a string that it > could easily break. You can surely not do it with [most] > humans! > > [...] > > > > AnnaW > > > Best Wishes, > ac > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 " The problem of suffering contains two elements: " >>>>Suffering is a problem only for those who cannot accept or understand it. " The first element is the existential suffering that no one knows about....because it truly belongs to no-one. " >>>>Existential suffering? Do you mean, to exist and to suffer go hand in hand? Maybe so, maybe not. It depends on what you mean. There must be somebody there to whom suffering happens. Suffering that belongs to no-one, as you say, cannot logically exist. Do you mean that there is some sort of cauldron of suffering outside your mind out of which you ladle a slurp into your mouth now and then? If so, I would ask you where, outside your body-mind, this cauldron is located. Does it exist independently of you? Furthermore, if this suffering takes place without anybody knowing about it, how is it that you know about its existence? " The second one is that suffering everyone creates in his/her ignorance about who suffers and why suffering is existential. " >>>>If " everyone creates " this second type of suffering " in his/her ignorance, " where does that leave those who understand " who suffers and why suffering is existential? " If one knows who and why, does that somehow magickally transform her/him into a non-sufferer? Do you know " who suffers and why? " " Now, here we can be of 'skillful means' to be intrinsically involved in the process of unfolding both its cause and its solution. IMHO. " That's what I am here to do. So are you. " >>>>Wonderful! However, its cause is untraceable and the only solution is acceptance. " Nice to see you ((((((*Silver*))))))) " >>>>Thank you. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying to alleviate it for myself and others? Silver **************** Because you're getting something out of trying, would be my guess. -- D. *************** Hello. By trying, I meant that I find it impossible to sit back and let someone suffer. For example, my father is fighting cancer. In spite of his optimism, he suffers pain. Do I just sit back and not try to lessen his suffering by making him more comfortable? This may not help his pain much but, at least, my show of compassion and of active love and of patience will have helped to lessen his suffering by making him feel loved and cared for, no? Is there something wrong with trying? And If I I do gain something out of trying to lessen someone's suffering, maybe that's just part of life. Love in action is its own reward and expresses itself reciprocally by showering more love upon the compassionate and loving being. Is that so bad? Think about this: maybe this is how the world was meant to be? Maybe love of self and other has a reason. Maybe happiness is the only reason. Silver *************** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 Nothing is out of place, because it's impossible for anything to be out of place. Nothing needs to have a use, because everything already is necessary and included in everything else, as it is, with no division. The purpose is *now* which is no purpose at all. Just what is. All of creation includes all of destruction, and vice versa. Nothing is created that isn't destroyed. You could say the purpose of anything created is to be destroyed, in its time. And you could also say the time is always now. And so it is. -- D. ************** Beautifully put! It is what it is, and I will do my best to act spontaneously, motivated by love, when the time seems right, and when spontaneous action doesn't seem called for, in the present moment, then I shall do nothing, and do it as best as I can, motivated by love. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 7, 2007 *This* which is free of suffering, has no division within it. Thus, this cannot be considered as a person, a personal possession, or a personal experience. Persons look for an end to their suffering. They are the suffering they are looking for an end to. As they are not, suffering is not. As the claim of personal existence arises, suffering is there along with it. To be free of suffering is to be free of personal location. To be free is to have never had a location for self from before any beginning. Simply put, this is as it is. -- D. ************** And might I add that they shall continue to suffer who look for a way to end it? Ending suffering is impossible. Lessening it is not. If one cannot help another to accept their suffering, one can at least try to make that person feel a little more loved, a little more cared for. Loving compassion are the greatest alleviators of suffering. Loving compassion promotes health and well-being, even if just a little bit. It certainly carries with it its own reward, even if done so without regard for the reward. You shall be rewarding for your good works in any case. Love is always rewarded. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > > If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying > to alleviate it for myself and others? > > Silver > **************** > Because you're getting something out of trying, would be my guess. > > -- D. > *************** > Hello. By trying, I meant that I find it impossible to sit back and let > someone suffer. For example, my father is fighting cancer. In spite of > his optimism, he suffers pain. Do I just sit back and not try to lessen > his suffering by making him more comfortable? This may not help his > pain much but, at least, my show of compassion and of active love and > of patience will have helped to lessen his suffering by making him feel > loved and cared for, no? Is there something wrong with trying? And If I > I do gain something out of trying to lessen someone's suffering, maybe > that's just part of life. Love in action is its own reward and > expresses itself reciprocally by showering more love upon the > compassionate and loving being. Is that so bad? Think about this: maybe > this is how the world was meant to be? Maybe love of self and other has > a reason. Maybe happiness is the only reason. > > Silver > *************** All, I said was, I'd guess you're getting something out of it. And it seems from what you say, that you are. I didn't make any statements about what is right or wrong, or how things should be. Things are as they are. This is how it is. Our thought processes don't add a whole lot to what is. Our thought processes are themselves just an aspect of what is. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > ************** > And might I add that they shall continue to suffer who look for a way > to end it? Ending suffering is impossible. Lessening it is not. If > one cannot help another to accept their suffering, one can at least > try to make that person feel a little more loved, a little more cared > for. Loving compassion are the greatest alleviators of suffering. > Loving compassion promotes health and well-being, even if just a > little bit. It certainly carries with it its own reward, even if done > so without regard for the reward. You shall be rewarding for your > good works in any case. Love is always rewarded. > > Silver When one person loves another, one wants that other to be happy if possible, and to suffer less if possible. One recognizes one's limits, doesn't try to force what can't be forced - just to offer what can be offered. No doubt about it. One also recognizes that the perceiver is the perceived. If I perceive suffering, I am that suffering. I may offer assistance, but not to get rid of what is. Just in recognition that my offering also is an aspect of " what is. " -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2007 GuruRatings , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: GuruRatings , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > [...] > > > What we often call 'egoic' way; is often just the result > > of little 'misunderstanding'! It is based on false ideas > > and three of these utterly false ideas are: > > > > Cloud: I agree that egoic ideas are based on false ideas > > > > - I should not suffer. > > > > Cloud: I think it is possible to get free of a lot of suffering. > > Sure, it is " possible " . > > But, I have noticed that 'wanting' > [to be free] is not the way! > > > > > > - I should be happy. > > > > Cloud: I think it is possible to achieve a sense of peace and > contentment > > Again, yes, it is indeed " possible " . > But, here too, in my experience, 'wanting' > [to be peaceful and content] is not the way. > > > > > > - My wishes should be fulfilled. > > > > Cloud: No, I think desires and attachments lead to suffering > > Including the 'desire' > to be free of suffering ?? > But more importantly, as long as we maintain a " need " to be 'free of suffering' and 'achieve happiness' we are bound by the same FEAR and GREED that creates all other kinds of suffering! The need to be free of suffering itself works as an attachment that keep us in bondage and it keeps us afraid. That is suffering! In my view, We can not really start 'living' until we let go of pursuit of 'personal' happiness and and avoidance personal suffering. It is my view that personal suffering and personal happiness is not supremely important. It is not really why we are here and it is not really the reason why we do what we do. We are part of process that outlives and outlasts us from every direction. Our utility is mostly just as a medium, a node through which this process passes, through which it signals get amplified, rectified, polluted... or purified. Better we understand that, better are our chances of becoming a clear medium - a willing participant! As long as we are confused and continue to think that it is [or that it should be] " about me " - we create a 'blockage' in the 'flow' and suffering is [and should be] the likely result as the system tries to get rid of this 'blockage' in its 'flow'! Once we become a willing conductor, Suffering/happiness may or may not happen in equal or different quantity - but, it starts mattering LESS! We understand that Life is not so much about " me " - as my 'existence' is 'because of' and 'for' the 'flow' of Life! If it was really about our " happiness " - [as many have found out,] we wouldn't have to do anything! We don't need 'world' to be happy! If it was about 'avoidance' of 'suffering' - we wouldn't even have taken 'birth'! But, we do both, because... there is something that is Far More Important than our 'personal' happiness and suffering! It is the Process, it is the 'Flow', it is Life, .... it is the 'leela' - the Universal Play! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2007 Because you're getting something out of trying, would be my guess. -- D. *************** Hello. By trying, I meant that I find it impossible to sit back and let someone suffer. For example, my father is fighting cancer. In spite of his optimism, he suffers pain. Do I just sit back and not try to lessen his suffering by making him more comfortable? This may not help his pain much but, at least, my show of compassion and of active love and of patience will have helped to lessen his suffering by making him feel loved and cared for, no? Is there something wrong with trying? And If I do gain something out of trying to lessen someone's suffering, maybe that's just part of life. Love in action is its own reward and expresses itself reciprocally by showering more love upon the compassionate and loving being. Is that so bad? Think about this: maybe this is how the world was meant to be? Maybe love of self and other has a reason. Maybe happiness is the only reason. Silver *************** " All, I said was, I'd guess you're getting something out of it. And it seems from what you say, that you are. " >>>>Yes, I am getting something out of alleviating suffering in the world. But getting something out of it is simply a side-effect. I do not do it because of what I get out of it. Love is my motivation. Love seeks to express itself through me. I am a channel, as Arvind suggested. I could just as well sit on my ass at home and do nothing about suffering. Whatever I do, or don't do, really makes no difference to me. It doesn't affect me, the real me, in the slightest. I am not changed by the action of love. I am love. Love is unchangeable. Love may wake someone up, who formerly was asleep. They may come to realize, by their receipt of love, that they, too, are love, loved, and loveable, and so begin to believe in themselves again, thus come to understand and accept their own and others' suffering. Consequently, they will begin to feel alive again and, motivated by love, they will get involved dispassionately in the moving picture presented to them in their minds, only because there is really nothing else for them to do, other than nothing, and that is okay, too. Nothing needs be done. Any benefit I receive as a result of my expressions of love, compassion, kindness, come to me unexpected, unwanted, yet welcome and accepted by love and for love. " I didn't make any statements about what is right or wrong, or how things should be. Things are as they are. This is how it is. " >>>>My mistake for assuming you might have implied that my motivation for doing something about the suffering I see in the world around me was for a selfish one. I'm glad to know my assumption, which I should not have made in the first place, of course, was incorrect, and I apologize for that. " Our thought processes don't add a whole lot to what is. Our thought processes are themselves just an aspect of what is. -- D. " >>>>Right on. Silver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 13, 2007 This may sound heretical to some, but I say it anyway: Love can create a lot more suffering than indifference. Stefan Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: Hello. By trying, I meant that I find it impossible to sit back and let someone suffer. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 13, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > This may sound heretical to some, but I say it anyway: > Love can create a lot more suffering than indifference. > > Stefan > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069@> wrote: > Hello. By trying, I meant that I find it impossible to sit back and > let someone suffer. ... What human beings usually call love is actually attachment to an object (usually human, but not always) they perceive or to an experience they want to keep. Love seems to be about the other, but it's about the self, and keeping the self. That is what the grief is for when the other dies or moves on. It is grief for the damage to the sense of self, to the attachment the self wanted to continue. Love that isn't about a self, has no other, hence no attachment. It can't be discussed - discussions involve an other -- it's not the opposite of hate or indifference, and can't be given, taken, fallen into, or fallen out of - nor lost. It includes and transcends all and has no name. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 14, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: >Love that isn't about a self, has no other, hence no attachment. > >It can't be discussed - discussions involve an other -- it's not the >opposite of hate or indifference, and can't be given, taken, fallen >into, or fallen out of - nor lost. > >It includes and transcends all and has no name. So, why call it " love " then? Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 14, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > >Love that isn't about a self, has no other, hence no attachment. > > > >It can't be discussed - discussions involve an other -- it's not the > >opposite of hate or indifference, and can't be given, taken, fallen > >into, or fallen out of - nor lost. > > > >It includes and transcends all and has no name. > > So, why call it " love " then? > Stefan it is nameless. saying even that is a concession to our ignorance and nothing more. it is not of a knowable nature nor of definable, existential, character. calling it love or understanding or knowledge or spiritual etc. is merely a diagnosis made by limited and lesser and unreal beings regarding that which is not capable of being constrained by the mental deficiencies of the world as known to or by themselves. it's a lost cause for men and women and cats and dogs and astonishing sunsets and majestic mountains and 'natures' fury. and even the blessed little babies and sages and gurus and masters and christs and buddhas and on and on.... do not 'see' or understand (nothing and not anyone 'here' has a clue.). when given up, this pathetic struggle of the phantoms is seen as the most humorous venture imaginable...and it's not only futile, it IS the very 'lost souls' themselves as well as all else and all not else. it's quantum-like would be the best indication. nobody understands the quantum reality. if they think they do, they haven't even gotten the gist of the idea. same same with this love stuff. it's all part of the joke that once 'gotten', can never be forgotten and can never be discussed or transmitted nor made visible...not even (or most certainly) to or for the self. 'love is as good a name as 'woolgathering' or 'philosophizing' or daydreaming...and the word 'love' is about as effective and affective as any other. and it doesn't matter. this is not an issue for concern nor an item of intellectual inquiry. it is. that's all that is. that's that. ..b bobji baba (He Who Knows By Not Knowing) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 14, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > >Love that isn't about a self, has no other, hence no attachment. > > > >It can't be discussed - discussions involve an other -- it's not the > >opposite of hate or indifference, and can't be given, taken, fallen > >into, or fallen out of - nor lost. > > > >It includes and transcends all and has no name. > > So, why call it " love " then? > Stefan So I can discuss it. Love, awareness, truth, being, these are aspects of *what is*, which isn't divisible, hence has no qualities. Words require division - it's how words operate. Hence, I'll talk about qualities, as if these could pertain. Otherwise I couldn't talk about *this* -- and it's worth communicating about. It is the resolution of the conflicts involved in trying to have a located self. Wouldn't want to miss out on talking about that -- regardless of the impossibility of doing so. -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 14, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > >Love that isn't about a self, has no other, hence no attachment. > > > > > >It can't be discussed - discussions involve an other -- it's not the > > >opposite of hate or indifference, and can't be given, taken, fallen > > >into, or fallen out of - nor lost. > > > > > >It includes and transcends all and has no name. > > > > So, why call it " love " then? > > Stefan > > So I can discuss it. > > Love, awareness, truth, being, these are aspects of *what is*, which > isn't divisible, hence has no qualities. Words require division - > it's how words operate. Hence, I'll talk about qualities, as if these > could pertain. Otherwise I couldn't talk about *this* -- and it's > worth communicating about. It is the resolution of the conflicts > involved in trying to have a located self. > > Wouldn't want to miss out on talking about that -- regardless of the > impossibility of doing so. > > -- Dan amen. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 15, 2007 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: >Love, awareness, truth, being, these are aspects of *what is*, which >isn't divisible, hence has no qualities. Words require division - >it's how words operate. Hence, I'll talk about qualities, as if these >could pertain. Otherwise I couldn't talk about *this* -- and it's >worth communicating about. It is the resolution of the conflicts >involved in trying to have a located self. > >Wouldn't want to miss out on talking about that -- regardless of the >impossibility of doing so. I am with you, Dan. After all, we are here to talk. Now, here follow some random thoughts: I wonder, when love is just one aspect of the indivisible, why do we usually prefer to call it " love " over calling it " hate " ? Is hate not just another word on the infinite list of aspects we could set up for the indivisible? Maybe this our usual preference indicates our attachment. Is this attachment not the golden calf of " spiritual seekers " ? The issue of love and suffering is quite essential for me at my daily struggles. I find that I do not want to hurt and cause suffering. But by trying to avoid that, I only cause more suffering. I think we must look at this. Often I find, that my undercurrent motivation is simply my desire to be loved. I came across this quote from Woody Allen: " To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore to love is to suffer, not to love is to suffer. To suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy then is to suffer. But suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be unhappy one must love, or love to suffer, or suffer from too much happiness. I hope you're getting this down. " Quite funny. Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 15, 2007 Would you mind giving an example? I don't understand. Silver Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > This may sound heretical to some, but I say it anyway: > Love can create a lot more suffering than indifference. > > Stefan > > > Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069@> wrote: > Hello. By trying, I meant that I find it impossible to sit back and > let someone suffer. ... > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 15, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > GuruRatings , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , anna <anna@> wrote: > > > > After many questions, inquiries, > > introspection, reflections on > > suffering, the LAST question > > I encountered was: > > > > I shouldn't suffer. > > > > Is that true? > > > > I noticed that my foolish, 'egoic', deluded and selfish > > belief in this 'false' idea often caused me more > > pain than any real suffering. Further, it often also > > blocked many useful lessons and growth opportunities > > that 'suffering' provides! > > > > I noticed that my belief in this false idea > > was the basis of my numerous 'false' searches > > to 'get rid of' suffering too... > > > > But, when that Very IDEA was questioned and found it > false, > > > > I was often left without ANY reason to... > > 'escape' the Present Moment! > > ---------------- > > > > Adithya, > > > > Here is what I have come to in the past six months and I > think it is from acim. I find that when I can apply this, > I do not experience emotional pain, suffering. > > > Do you still need to apply it again and again? > > Or, have you really become " free " of pain and suffering. > > In my experience, no one is free of suffering, no one > should be and no one needs to be. > > > Pain is among the most powerful " communicators " ! It is one > of the Most Effective and Direct way that the > Universe/God/Creation " talks " to us. Being 'deaf' to this > communication is neither necessary nor useful. > > > > In fact, I have this written out on a note > > card on my computer desk. Now, I say remember because I > am conditioned to respond in egoic ways and those always lead to > suffering. > > > What we often call 'egoic' way; is often just the result > of little 'misunderstanding'! It is based on false ideas > and three of these utterly false ideas are: > > - I should not suffer. > > - I should be happy. > > - My wishes should be fulfilled. > > I have noticed that even after spending years " searching " - > many spiritual 'seekers' are still unwilling to give up > these ideas. In fact, these three ideas often start search, > sustain the search and many times they survive even after > the search is deemed 'fulfilled'! Yet, in my mind, these > are among most basic misunderstanding that we have. > > > > > > > The first thing I realized was that most of my > perceptions are based on the past > > For a very good reason: > > All " knowledge " comes from Past and we are a 'knowledge > based' animal. That is among our most vital strengths. > > > > > and I have not reexamined these in the light of the > present. I saw further that I am very much like a robot > acting on past programing. > > > > For a Very Good reason: > > This is the way humans are 'designed' to function. This is > what enables us to 'multi task'. This is what allows us to > function effectively without having to learn same thing > again and again. This is how 'evolution' takes place and > most importantly because our 'sub conscious' is greatly > more effective in performing what it has learnt than our > conscious. It just needs some training, guidance and > practice that's all. > > Sub-conscious runs our body. It runs our heart, it pumps > blood, it breathes, it regulates our sleep, it regulates > our temperature, it regulates our hormones and… it also > drives our cars and… most importantly it does most our > thinking! > > And, it does a WONDERFUL job pretty much everywhere. I > think, thinking is the only job that it ends up doing > somewhat poorly and I think, thinking is the job which can > improve DRAMATICALLY with some 'Conscious' participation! > > I think, only thing that we might benefit by continuing to > do 'consciously' is… thinking! > > > > > I did not previously see that my perceptions were more > often than not incorrect so I was acting on beliefs I > picked up in my past. > > Sure... > > > > > Though these may sound simple, they definitely work for > me and when I am able to utilize them and not fall back into > conditioned responses, I have peace and contentment. > > Sure... > > What I find even more important is whether that " process " > is still 'conscious' [i.e. you have to remember to do it] > or if it has already become automatic. The second happens > when the sub-conscious gets 'trained' to think, act and > behave in the " new " way. I have seen that sub-conscious is > one of the BEST asset that we have but, sometimes it needs > to be 'fed', 'guided', 'molded' and 'trained' to function > in desired way through Conscious. > > > > > > 1. Judge no one > > I see 'judging' is part of 'knowledge' and among one of > the Most Basic Human Trait. By 'judging' all we are trying > to do is to 'predict' 'future' behavior and it is among our > most basic 'survival' traits. 'Not judging' sure sounds > very nice and " cool " spiritually and " politically " - yet, > in my observation, there has never been a human who doesn't > judge. It is neither necessary nor useful. But yes, some > 'observation', 'guidance' and 'correction' by Conscious is > important here too! > > > > 2. Forgive utterly > > In my experience, " forgiving " is not something you can > " do " ! In fact, whenever you try to " do " it - at the best, > you will end up 'pretending'! Forgiveness is the side > effect of RIGHT understanding. It comes with understanding > that what someone DID - was not really his/her fault > [sometimes, because, they didn't really have any other > choice!]. Sometimes forgiveness also comes because we > understand that the universe doesn't have to be " about me " > or " for me " and that the things/people can and should be > the way they are! > > > > > 3. Resist nothing > > In my experience, we exist only because you resist! > > Resistance can surely mean " pain " many times yet, when > done with right 'understanding' and with 'consciousness' it > is the way of Human Growth and Evolution! And, in my mind, > that is one reason why we are here! > > In my mind, > our " personal " pleasure/pain/suffering/salvation is far less > important that what it means at the grander scale - at the scale of > that which WILL " outlast " us [something like the Universe, > Humanity, " life " for example…]! And, whether we 'believe' > it or not - it is ALREADY True! Universe and everybody > around us is ALREADY " programmed " to treat us that way! > And, when we try to make it the OTHER way [i.e. my > " personal " suffering/salvation is more important all else] > the universe does [and should] attempt to fight or abandon > us! > > > > > > This first one has to do with seeing that we are not > different from each other. We all want to be free of suffering. > > > Yes, many kids want toys - even when it means fighting > with some other kids. > > > > We all want peace and > > contentment. > > Yes, many kids want clean and dry diapers - even when it > means waking us parents and neighbors. > > > > We go about this in different ways depending upon our > > individual level of awareness but what we want is the > same. > > Or, we might " grow " and question that very want! > > We might realize that we are here on an 'invitation' and > that we owe our each breathe and each drop of our blood to > the Universe - to the creative Evolutionary, Unfolding, > Progressing 'leela'! Realizing that we might SEE that this > 'leela' has ALREADY done enough for us - perhaps, now, it > is my turn to participate in it 'Consciously'! > > > So if my > > neighbor does things that initially irritate me, I > remind myself that she and I are the same. We want the same thing > and all of us do as well as we can. > > > Yes, two kids often want SAME toy and many times end up > fighting. > > > > With that thought, judging leaves me. But I've yet to > > discover a way to get around self judging. > > 'Self judging' can be a good way towards growth as long it > is 'understood' and done consciously. > > > [...] > > > > > Now, I do agree with you that we can learn from painful > experiences. > > But I swear I have had those all my life and never > learned a damn thing. > > > > May of use have done similar things! > > Maybe, because we are so " busy " resisting it and in trying > to 'escape' to no pain zone that we were not really > available to Consciously SEE, understand and learn from it! > > In my experience, suffering and resistance [including the > " wish " to be somewhere else] go together! It is impossible > to suffer [for long] without resisting it and without > wishing to be somewhere else! Absent the resistance and the > wish to be somewhere else… Pain is just quick and very > effective message - decode it, understand it and use it! It > is just a friend. > > > > I read once that a difference between humans and > laboratory ratswere that rats would stop a behavior once there was > longer a pleasant outcome, some reward. The point was that humans > will continue the same behavior over and over again without a > pleasant outcome or reward. > > I am not sure of that. We might 'persist' little longer > but, only because we somehow " see " a possibility! > > Remember the story: > > Tie a baby elephant with heavy iron chain that it can't > break and once the elephant grows up it never tries to > break again even when it is tied with a string that it > could easily break. You can surely not do it with [most] > humans! > > [...] > > > > AnnaW > > > Best Wishes, > ac > ** Presumeably, you think without all those quotation marks... Couldn't you write without them, too? ;-) ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 15, 2007 Silver, I could ask the opposite question: can you give any example where such kind of attachment does *not* cause suffering? But gladly I will give you an example. It is from Greek mythology. I guess you know the story of Orpheus and Euridyce. http://www.online-mythology.com/orpheus_eurydice/ Out of love Orpheus was following his dead beloved to the underworld, to gain her back. See how the story ends. I will give you more examples if you are interested. Greetings Stefan Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > >Would you mind giving an example? I don't understand. > >Silver > >Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: >> >> This may sound heretical to some, but I say it anyway: >> Love can create a lot more suffering than indifference. >> >> Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 15, 2007 [...] > > > ** Presumeably, you think without all those quotation marks... No, I don't Ken! Those quotes have special meaning to me. Sometimes they mean that I find the concept in quotes funny and hilarious. Sometimes they mean that I find the concept in quotes questionable, sometimes they mean that I find over-emphasis on the concept in quotes - funny! For example, sometimes, I put quotes around the word " choosing " because I find over-emphasis on that word put by Ramesh and those trained by him - quite Funny! > Couldn't you write without them, too? ;-) I surely can, Ken! > > ken > Regards, ac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
