Guest guest Report post Posted April 8, 2005 A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in order to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 8, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in order > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > al. Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 8, 2005 Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? toombaru Cut to the chase: Who is it that desires? That appears to be the central issue. No? fuzzie wuzzie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 8, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > order > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > al. > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > toombaru I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is I think a better idea. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > toombaru > > > > > Cut to the chase: Who is it that desires? That appears to be the > central issue. No? > > fuzzie wuzzie The question: " Who is it that desires? " assumes that there is a who. It is circular in that the one who desires. .....is the one asking. It is a meaningless question. As is " Who am I? " toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > order > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > I think a better idea. > > al. The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the mother of all desires. and Things can never be different then they are. Still think desire is good? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > > order > > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > > I think a better idea. > > > > al. > > > > > > The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the mother of all desires. > > and > > > Things can never be different then they are. > > > Still think desire is good? > > > toombaru I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too much occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an influx of the uncertain. The uncertain comes from the inability of our desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always comes as the now, and the now is not uncertain. Fear points to the now, and desires point to the future. When fear and desire are fused into one feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in the present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the now. Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but don't let the future use you. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 - toombaru2004 Nisargadatta Saturday, April 09, 2005 2:31 AM Re: New form of desire Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > order > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > I think a better idea. > > al. The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the mother of all desires. and Things can never be different then they are. Still think desire is good? toombaru ** Not So, My precious Toombaru, desiring, Desire Is........ anna If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, April 09, 2005 6:02 AM Re: New form of desire Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > > order > > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > > I think a better idea. > > > > al. > > > > > > The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the mother of all desires. > > and > > > Things can never be different then they are. > > > Still think desire is good? > > > toombaru I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too much occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an influx of the uncertain. The uncertain comes from the inability of our desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always comes as the now, and the now is not uncertain. Fear points to the now, and desires point to the future. When fear and desire are fused into one feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in the present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the now. Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but don't let the future use you. al. ** Gassho Monsieu Al If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > toombaru2004 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, April 09, 2005 2:31 AM > Re: New form of desire > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire for the > > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is still > > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the hightest > > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea about > > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True desire for > > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > > order > > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new form of > > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire is an > > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > > I think a better idea. > > > > al. > > > > > > The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the mother of all desires. > > and > > > Things can never be different then they are. > > > Still think desire is good? > > > toombaru > > > > > > ** > > > Not So, > My precious Toombaru, > > desiring, > Desire > Is........ > > anna > > Desire is wanting. One can only want what they do not have. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire > for the > > > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is > still > > > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the > hightest > > > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea > about > > > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True > desire for > > > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > > > order > > > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new > form of > > > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire > is an > > > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > > > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > > > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > > > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > > > I think a better idea. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the > mother of all desires. > > > > and > > > > > > Things can never be different then they are. > > > > > > Still think desire is good? > > > > > > toombaru > > I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too much > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an influx > of the uncertain. The uncertain comes from the inability of our > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always comes as > the now, and the now is not uncertain. Fear points to the now, and > desires point to the future. When fear and desire are fused into one > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in the > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the now. > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but > don't let the future use you. > > al. Golly......that's a very interesting theory....... What is the nature of the entity to whom it applies? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " al:> I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too much > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an influx > of the uncertain. Sam: How can desires be dissolved into the present moment by an influx of the uncertain? This is called " variable response ratio " and it's what addicts people to such things as gambling, spiritual seeking, etc. The fascination with the influx of the uncertain, as you call it, fuels the addiction to the variable response possiblities and rarely has the effect you long for of dissolving the uncertain. Gamblers also don't realize that the house always wins. This is the no-brainer that this kind of addiction propells either in one form or another - your form is no different. Al > The uncertain comes from the inability of our > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always comes as > the now, and the now is not uncertain. Sam: That's a cobweb of thought – designed to feed the illusions? It sounds like your trying to end the gambling addiction by figuring out what the cards are going to hold before you play, thereby stopping the desire to play or to turn over another card? Al > Fear points to the now, and > desires point to the future. Sam: there is no now *and* future. There is only now. The struggling is based on fear. Period. Fear of the future and of the now brings the myriad of cobweb thoughts and ideas you are proposing here. All the other ideas of passion etc, is only " your " ideas. Is your need to analyze the future and emotions a wild chase to avoid the present moment and continue to feed this chase? Al > When fear and desire are fused into one > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in the > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the now. > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but > don't let the future use you. > > al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A form of desire that is of highest value is the the desire > > for the > > > > > > new. This is a new form of desire. Normally, desire is just a > > > > > > repetition of the old. And however good that desire is, it is > > still > > > > > > just repetition. Repetition can be of value, but not of the > > hightest > > > > > > value. Only the new can give the highest value. Even the idea > > about > > > > > > the new is old. Even the desire for the new is old. True > > desire for > > > > > > the new is always new. You must be in a state of not knowing in > > > > > order > > > > > > to receive the new. The desire for the new is what we call > > > > > > uncertainty. Your old form of desire hates uncertainty, because > > > > > > uncertainty spoils repetition, and the only thing your old and > > > > > > ordinary form of desire knows is repetition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Upgrade your old desires with a new form of desire. That new > > form of > > > > > > desire is what is called uncertainty. That new form of desire > > is an > > > > > > opening up to the new. This upgrade will remove your fear for the > > > > > > uncertain and turn it into a thirst for the uncertain. > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not desire to remove the desire to reconfigure your desire? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe desire is of great value and connected with our intelligence > > > > and capacity to know things and so removing desires - which many sages > > > > tell us is a good thing - is perhaps not a good idea after all. > > > > Upgrading one's desires and making them smarter and more flexibible is > > > > I think a better idea. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wish for " things " to be different then they are.....is the > > mother of all desires. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Things can never be different then they are. > > > > > > > > > Still think desire is good? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too much > > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. > > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an influx > > of the uncertain. The uncertain comes from the inability of our > > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, > > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always comes as > > the now, and the now is not uncertain. Fear points to the now, and > > desires point to the future. When fear and desire are fused into one > > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in the > > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. > > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the now. > > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction > > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be > > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the > > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but > > don't let the future use you. > > > > al. > > > > > > Golly......that's a very interesting theory....... > > > > > What is the nature of the entity to whom it applies? > toombaru Human nature. If people moved from desire to passion they would never need any health insurances. Only people living in fear need such crap. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > al:> I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too > much > > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. > > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an > influx > > of the uncertain. > > Sam: How can desires be dissolved into the present moment by an > influx of the uncertain? This is called " variable response ratio " > and it's what addicts people to such things as gambling, spiritual > seeking, etc. The fascination with the influx of the uncertain, as > you call it, fuels the addiction to the variable response > possiblities and rarely has the effect you long for of dissolving > the uncertain. Gamblers also don't realize that the house always > wins. This is the no-brainer that this kind of addiction propells > either in one form or another - your form is no different. The uncertain can only exist along with fear and desire. When those two driving forces, fear and desire, are merged into one feeling which we can call passion and which looks into the present moment rather than into the future, then addiction cannot possible survive. Addiction has to do with a future created by discontent in the present moment. The influx of the uncertain in this respect means the obliteration of the uncertain. > > > > Al > The uncertain comes from the inability of our > > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, > > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always > comes as > > the now, and the now is not uncertain. > > Sam: That's a cobweb of thought – designed to feed the illusions? > It sounds like your trying to end the gambling addiction by figuring > out what the cards are going to hold before you play, thereby > stopping the desire to play or to turn over another card? Gambling addiction comes from a need to try to control the future. Passion, which is a direct seeing in the present moment, is not an attempt to control, but rather total control which is the same as no control. Not no control as in out of control, but no control in the sense of being more aware of the present moment than of the future. A gambler is stuck to a future and the attempt to control and guide that future. > > Al > Fear points to the now, and > > desires point to the future. > > Sam: there is no now *and* future. There is only now. The > struggling is based on fear. Period. Fear of the future and of the > now brings the myriad of cobweb thoughts and ideas you are proposing > here. All the other ideas of passion etc, is only " your " > ideas. Is your need to analyze the future and emotions a wild > chase to avoid the present moment and continue to feed this > chase? Perhaps. But I am trying to understand why I am so preoccupied with the future. We are slaves to the future even though, as you say, there is only now. al. > > > Al > When fear and desire are fused into one > > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in > the > > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be > certain. > > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the > now. > > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction > > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be > > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the > > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but > > don't let the future use you. > > > > al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Anders, If you would own some uncertainty about your mental products which you constantly are shuffling inot the Niz list here it would open a chance for you not sooner or later to have to pass yourself into the hands of professional psychological care. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > al:> I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are too > > much > > > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present moment. > > > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an > > influx > > > of the uncertain. > > > > Sam: How can desires be dissolved into the present moment by an > > influx of the uncertain? This is called " variable response ratio " > > and it's what addicts people to such things as gambling, spiritual > > seeking, etc. The fascination with the influx of the uncertain, as > > you call it, fuels the addiction to the variable response > > possiblities and rarely has the effect you long for of dissolving > > the uncertain. Gamblers also don't realize that the house always > > wins. This is the no-brainer that this kind of addiction propells > > either in one form or another - your form is no different. > > The uncertain can only exist along with fear and desire. When those > two driving forces, fear and desire, are merged into one feeling which > we can call passion and which looks into the present moment rather > than into the future, then addiction cannot possible survive. > Addiction has to do with a future created by discontent in the present > moment. The influx of the uncertain in this respect means the > obliteration of the uncertain. > > > > > > > > > Al > The uncertain comes from the inability of our > > > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is old, > > > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always > > comes as > > > the now, and the now is not uncertain. > > > > Sam: That's a cobweb of thought – designed to feed the illusions? > > It sounds like your trying to end the gambling addiction by figuring > > out what the cards are going to hold before you play, thereby > > stopping the desire to play or to turn over another card? > > Gambling addiction comes from a need to try to control the future. > Passion, which is a direct seeing in the present moment, is not an > attempt to control, but rather total control which is the same as no > control. Not no control as in out of control, but no control in the > sense of being more aware of the present moment than of the future. A > gambler is stuck to a future and the attempt to control and guide > that future. > > > > > Al > Fear points to the now, and > > > desires point to the future. > > > > Sam: there is no now *and* future. There is only now. The > > struggling is based on fear. Period. Fear of the future and of the > > now brings the myriad of cobweb thoughts and ideas you are proposing > > here. All the other ideas of passion etc, is only " your " > > ideas. Is your need to analyze the future and emotions a wild > > chase to avoid the present moment and continue to feed this > > chase? > > Perhaps. But I am trying to understand why I am so preoccupied with > the future. We are slaves to the future even though, as you say, > there is only now. > > al. > > > > > > > Al > When fear and desire are fused into one > > > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in > > the > > > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > > > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be > > certain. > > > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the > > now. > > > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a direction > > > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be > > > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by the > > > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, but > > > don't let the future use you. > > > > > > al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > If you would own some uncertainty about your mental products which > you constantly are shuffling inot the Niz list here it would open a > chance for you not sooner or later to have to pass yourself into the > hands of professional psychological care. > > Werner Only the present moment is the true healer. All other forms of health care are concepts and projections. :-) al. > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > al:> I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are > too > > > much > > > > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present > moment. > > > > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by an > > > influx > > > > of the uncertain. > > > > > > Sam: How can desires be dissolved into the present moment by an > > > influx of the uncertain? This is called " variable response > ratio " > > > and it's what addicts people to such things as gambling, > spiritual > > > seeking, etc. The fascination with the influx of the uncertain, > as > > > you call it, fuels the addiction to the variable response > > > possiblities and rarely has the effect you long for of > dissolving > > > the uncertain. Gamblers also don't realize that the house > always > > > wins. This is the no-brainer that this kind of addiction > propells > > > either in one form or another - your form is no different. > > > > The uncertain can only exist along with fear and desire. When those > > two driving forces, fear and desire, are merged into one feeling > which > > we can call passion and which looks into the present moment rather > > than into the future, then addiction cannot possible survive. > > Addiction has to do with a future created by discontent in the > present > > moment. The influx of the uncertain in this respect means the > > obliteration of the uncertain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al > The uncertain comes from the inability of our > > > > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is > old, > > > > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always > > > comes as > > > > the now, and the now is not uncertain. > > > > > > Sam: That's a cobweb of thought – designed to feed the > illusions? > > > It sounds like your trying to end the gambling addiction by > figuring > > > out what the cards are going to hold before you play, thereby > > > stopping the desire to play or to turn over another card? > > > > Gambling addiction comes from a need to try to control the future. > > Passion, which is a direct seeing in the present moment, is not an > > attempt to control, but rather total control which is the same as no > > control. Not no control as in out of control, but no control in the > > sense of being more aware of the present moment than of the future. > A > > gambler is stuck to a future and the attempt to control and guide > > that future. > > > > > > > > Al > Fear points to the now, and > > > > desires point to the future. > > > > > > Sam: there is no now *and* future. There is only now. The > > > struggling is based on fear. Period. Fear of the future and of > the > > > now brings the myriad of cobweb thoughts and ideas you are > proposing > > > here. All the other ideas of passion etc, is only " your " > > > ideas. Is your need to analyze the future and emotions a > wild > > > chase to avoid the present moment and continue to feed this > > > chase? > > > > Perhaps. But I am trying to understand why I am so preoccupied > with > > the future. We are slaves to the future even though, as you say, > > there is only now. > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > Al > When fear and desire are fused into one > > > > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled > in > > > the > > > > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > > > > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be > > > certain. > > > > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into > the > > > now. > > > > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a > direction > > > > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be > > > > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by > the > > > > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a guide, > but > > > > don't let the future use you. > > > > > > > > al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > >Anders, > >If you would own some uncertainty about your mental products which >you constantly are shuffling inot the Niz list here it would open a >chance for you not sooner or later to have to pass yourself into the >hands of professional psychological care. Maybe this " shuffling " is what saves him from more serious problems. Who knows? Actually, I sense in him a lot of uncertanty. He mostly emphasizes that he talks only about his " ideas " and he is obviously searching for new models to explain the world he experiences all the time. This takes some courage opposed to someone who claims that he posesses the ultimately correct knowledge of truth ;-) Every system tries to get along somehow. What about you? Was it helpful for you to post what you just posted? Greetings Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Hi Stefan, As far as I know Anders, he is man enough to speak and answer for himself, he doesn't need your help. And as far I remember I have addressed my post to him and not to you. Just have a look at the answer he gave, it is smart and funny, isn't it ? Werner Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > >Anders, > > > >If you would own some uncertainty about your mental products which > >you constantly are shuffling inot the Niz list here it would open a > >chance for you not sooner or later to have to pass yourself into the > >hands of professional psychological care. > > Maybe this " shuffling " is what saves him from more serious problems. > Who knows? > > Actually, I sense in him a lot of uncertanty. He mostly emphasizes > that he talks only about his " ideas " and he is obviously searching for > new models to explain the world he experiences all the time. This > takes some courage opposed to someone who claims that he posesses the > ultimately correct knowledge of truth ;-) > > Every system tries to get along somehow. What about you? Was it > helpful for you to post what you just posted? > > Greetings > Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: >As far as I know Anders, he is man enough to speak and answer for >himself, he doesn't need your help. And as far I remember I have >addressed my post to him and not to you. > >Just have a look at the answer he gave, it is smart and funny, isn't >it ? Hi Werner, " man enough " ... Manns genug... haha! How glad I am that I dont have to live in Deutschland any more... First of all, I thought we had already agreed on the point that the postings in this group are public and no private emails. Do I really have to remind you again? But anyway, I have not spoken for Anders. I have spoken to YOU, Werner. I have even asked you a question. But you did not answer. Were you not " Manns genug " ? Ok, then I ask you something else. Anders answer was smart and funny. How about you? Do you think your hint at the " professional help " was smart and funny? I wonder if you will be " Manns genug " to answer this one... :-/ Or " smart and funny " enough... (?) Jawoll! Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: >When fear and desire are fused into one >feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in >the present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be >uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. Wow, a great way to put it. I guess not many will follow you here, because they simply do not experience passion. They live a lukewarm life, you know. They think someone who collects stamps has a passion. Or someone who creates vedantic essays for the clubs lol. The heroes have become rare on this planet. >Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the >now. Yes, you know what I just thought, why dont you go for enlightenment with all your passion. >If people moved from desire to passion they would never >need any health insurances. Only people living in fear need such >crap. Wow, this sounds like the voice of a hero. You already did move from desire to passion. So, what are you still searching for? You got it all. Greetings Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > >When fear and desire are fused into one > >feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in > >the present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > >uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. > > Wow, a great way to put it. I guess not many will follow you here, > because they simply do not experience passion. They live a lukewarm > life, you know. They think someone who collects stamps has a passion. > Or someone who creates vedantic essays for the clubs lol. The > heroes have become rare on this planet. > > >Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the > >now. > > Yes, you know what I just thought, why dont you go for enlightenment > with all your passion. > > >If people moved from desire to passion they would never > >need any health insurances. Only people living in fear need such > >crap. > > Wow, this sounds like the voice of a hero. You already did move from > desire to passion. So, what are you still searching for? You got it > all. > > Greetings > Stefan I have no peace. When I have peace I can stop searching for it. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 > > I have no peace. When I have peace I can stop searching for it. > > al. ....stacking and sorting shadows......... toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, April 09, 2005 6:25 PM Re: New form of desire Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > >When fear and desire are fused into one > >feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in > >the present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > >uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. > > Wow, a great way to put it. I guess not many will follow you here, > because they simply do not experience passion. They live a lukewarm > life, you know. They think someone who collects stamps has a passion. > Or someone who creates vedantic essays for the clubs lol. The > heroes have become rare on this planet. > > >Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the > >now. > > Yes, you know what I just thought, why dont you go for enlightenment > with all your passion. > > >If people moved from desire to passion they would never > >need any health insurances. Only people living in fear need such > >crap. > > Wow, this sounds like the voice of a hero. You already did move from > desire to passion. So, what are you still searching for? You got it > all. > > Greetings > Stefan I have no peace. When I have peace I can stop searching for it. al. ** Hi Al, What if you allow that passion to serve you and peace would be its result? anna If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 > > I have no peace. When I have peace I can stop searching for it. > > al. > > > > > > ** > Hi Al, > What if you allow that passion to serve you and peace would be its result? > > anna > > > Yeah.................kinda like what's left of the wind .....when it stops moving. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Saturday, April 09, 2005 6:25 PM > Re: New form of desire > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > >When fear and desire are fused into one > > >feeling they become passion which is desire instantly fulfilled in > > >the present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be > > >uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be certain. > > > > Wow, a great way to put it. I guess not many will follow you here, > > because they simply do not experience passion. They live a lukewarm > > life, you know. They think someone who collects stamps has a passion. > > Or someone who creates vedantic essays for the clubs lol. The > > heroes have become rare on this planet. > > > > >Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into the > > >now. > > > > Yes, you know what I just thought, why dont you go for enlightenment > > with all your passion. > > > > >If people moved from desire to passion they would never > > >need any health insurances. Only people living in fear need such > > >crap. > > > > Wow, this sounds like the voice of a hero. You already did move from > > desire to passion. So, what are you still searching for? You got it > > all. > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > I have no peace. When I have peace I can stop searching for it. > > al. > > > > > > ** > Hi Al, > What if you allow that passion to serve you and peace would be its result? > > anna > First passion has to come. Then I can allow it. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
