Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " > <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 3/27/05 11:13:25 PM, anders_lindman writes: > > > > > > > > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even > > become > > > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very > > aware > > > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would > > it be > > > > self aware? > > > > > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is > > aware? Self > > > aware= > > > aware of self. How do you know you have a self? What is a > > self? Are > > > self > > > and awareness two different thing? > > > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions > > without > > > that reason > > > having been previously programmed, we must conclude it's > > aware of its > > > motivations. > > > > > > > > f. Maybe the manifestation of AI shows that > > Awareness embraces everything, > > doesn't see divisions or roles, and > > contains it all, including knowledge > > of itself. Also that Awareness > > doesn't necessarily have to > > be limited to a flesh/blood/bones thing. > > > > One idea is that there only One Awareness and everything else (like > physical matter) is just appearance in Awareness. But the > manifestation of AI, however clever, cannot really tell us if the > machine is self aware or not. > > --al-- What is an " appearance " ? Do this: look at or think about anything without using any thoughts, memory or associations. f. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " > > <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/27/05 11:13:25 PM, anders_lindman > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > > > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even > > > become > > > > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if > that > > > > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be > very > > > aware > > > > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but > would > > > it be > > > > > self aware? > > > > > > > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is > > > aware? Self > > > > aware= > > > > aware of self. How do you know you have a self? What is > a > > > self? Are > > > > self > > > > and awareness two different thing? > > > > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its > actions > > > without > > > > that reason > > > > having been previously programmed, we must conclude it's > > > aware of its > > > > motivations. > > > > > > > > > > > > f. Maybe the manifestation of AI shows that > > > Awareness embraces everything, > > > doesn't see divisions or roles, and > > > contains it all, including knowledge > > > of itself. Also that Awareness > > > doesn't necessarily have to > > > be limited to a flesh/blood/bones thing. > > > > > > > One idea is that there only One Awareness and everything else (like > > physical matter) is just appearance in Awareness. But the > > manifestation of AI, however clever, cannot really tell us if the > > machine is self aware or not. > > > > --al-- > > > What is an " appearance " ? > > Do this: look at or think about > anything without using any thoughts, memory > or associations. > > f. I cannot do that. However Eckhart Tolle says that when walking in nature for example, we don't need to remember our own past, not even our name! That would be an interesting experience I think. I can feel when walking in nature, that my memories, thoughts and associations often make up a cloud that prevents clear perception, direct perception, deep perception. The sense of deep connectedness with all things which some sages talk about is obscured by noisy thought processes. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > To be self aware is not the same as being able to act using reasoning, > logic, common sense or even superior intelligence. To be self aware is > to be aware of existing. life, awareness etc cannot be defined. don't waste your time. these are just tautologies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > To be self aware is not the same as being able to act using reasoning, > > logic, common sense or even superior intelligence. To be self aware is > > to be aware of existing. > > life, awareness etc cannot be defined. don't waste your time. these > are just tautologies. Descriptions will always be incomplete I agree. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > Do this: look at or think about > anything without using any thoughts, memory > or associations. Energy can think. Thinking without thoughts " appearing " is energy thinking. It can be done, when you know how. It can't be done, when you don't. You know how? Don't think about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > To be self aware is not the same as being able to act using reasoning, > > logic, common sense or even superior intelligence. To be self aware is > > to be aware of existing. > > life, awareness etc cannot be defined. don't waste your time. these > are just tautologies. It's not your time............go ahead and waste it....:-) toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/28/05 8:15:24 AM, freyjartist@a... writes: > > > > P: Says Freyja, waiving to everyone... as she joins the > > conga line at > > > ........................................................Toomb's > > Zombie > > > jamboree. > > > > > > > > > haha! > > > > you mean the > > conga line at the wedding of a > > child of a barren woman? > > (this IS a Niz list) > > > > OOOOPAH! > > > > ;-) > > > > P: Yes, I think that's what I meant. > I heard the honeymoon was a fiasco, > and she has been trying to file for divorce, > or at least disconnect the feeding tube, but > not even the star agents of the Bureau > of Ontological Nondual Investigations (BONI) have > been able to locate the guy. I'll keep you informed. > OK Yes, Pete, we're already wet. So we might as well go swimming! f. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even become > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very aware > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would it be > > self aware? > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is aware? Self aware= aware of self. How do you know you have a self? What is a self? Are self and awareness two different thing? > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions without that reason having been previously programmed,we must conclude it's aware of its motivations. > > Faithe: > A robot will never invent a cure for cancer, or write a poem, etc. A robot may be used in the process of developing a cure, etc. It will be the programming and wiring installed that makes the robot capable of churning much more information, more efficiently and accurately than an individual human mind can handle. > > Similar to all machinery which makes man's life more comfortable...an efficient furnace, a vehicle that moves more quickly than the legs of man, the airplane that allows man to fly, etc. > > A robot has as much of a chance of being " aware " or " self-aware " as a human does of creating something from nothing. > > I don't know. Jesus Christ and Sai Baba are known for having materialized stuff out of thin air, and that's almost out of nothin'. Self-aware machines? How do we know that we humans are not machines too? Digital information swirled around by Awareness. I will have to read David Icke's latest book (coming out late April I believe) and get back on the subject. Icke will probably not get a Nobel Prize for his controversial research, but I am looking forward to his book which will probably contain some craaaazy and mind-blowing stuff. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even become > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very aware > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would it be > > self aware? > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is aware? Self aware= aware of self. How do you know you have a self? What is a self? Are self and awareness two different thing? > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions without that reason having been previously programmed,we must conclude it's aware of its motivations. > > Faithe: > A robot will never invent a cure for cancer, or write a poem, etc. A robot may be used in the process of developing a cure, etc. It will be the programming and wiring installed that makes the robot capable of churning much more information, more efficiently and accurately than an individual human mind can handle. > > Similar to all machinery which makes man's life more comfortable...an efficient furnace, a vehicle that moves more quickly than the legs of man, the airplane that allows man to fly, etc. > > A robot has as much of a chance of being " aware " or " self-aware " as a human does of creating something from nothing. > > I don't know. Jesus Christ and Sai Baba are known for having materialized stuff out of thin air, and that's almost out of nothin'. Self-aware machines? How do we know that we humans are not machines too? Digital information swirled around by Awareness. I will have to read David Icke's latest book (coming out late April I believe) and get back on the subject. Icke will probably not get a Nobel Prize for his controversial research, but I am looking forward to his book which will probably contain some craaaazy and mind-blowing stuff. al. ********Faithe: There has never been sufficient evidence provided for me to accept the stories of JC and others. Putting that aside, " materializing things out of thin air " is not creating something from nothing. If you want to get fancy about it, it sounds like the rearrangement (materialization) of molecules... molecules which are " something " . Get the drift. Nothing means just that...nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even become > > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very aware > > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would it be > > > self aware? > > > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is > aware? Self aware= aware of self. How do you know you have a > self? What is a self? Are self and awareness two different thing? > > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions > without that reason having been previously programmed,we must > conclude it's aware of its motivations. > > > > Faithe: > > A robot will never invent a cure for cancer, or write a poem, etc. A > robot may be used in the process of developing a cure, etc. It will be > the programming and wiring installed that makes the robot capable of > churning much more information, more efficiently and accurately than > an individual human mind can handle. > > > > Similar to all machinery which makes man's life more > comfortable...an efficient furnace, a vehicle that moves more quickly > than the legs of man, the airplane that allows man to fly, etc. > > > > A robot has as much of a chance of being " aware " or " self-aware " as > a human does of creating something from nothing. > > > > > > I don't know. Jesus Christ and Sai Baba are known for having > materialized stuff out of thin air, and that's almost out of nothin'. Sai Baba also mysteriously materializes receipts for the watches he gives out...... :-0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even become > > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very aware > > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would it be > > > self aware? > > > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is > aware? Self aware= aware of self. How do you know you have a > self? What is a self? Are self and awareness two different thing? > > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions > without that reason having been previously programmed,we must > conclude it's aware of its motivations. > > > > Faithe: > > A robot will never invent a cure for cancer, or write a poem, etc. A > robot may be used in the process of developing a cure, etc. It will be > the programming and wiring installed that makes the robot capable of > churning much more information, more efficiently and accurately than > an individual human mind can handle. > > > > Similar to all machinery which makes man's life more > comfortable...an efficient furnace, a vehicle that moves more quickly > than the legs of man, the airplane that allows man to fly, etc. > > > > A robot has as much of a chance of being " aware " or " self-aware " as > a human does of creating something from nothing. > > > > > > I don't know. Jesus Christ and Sai Baba are known for having > materialized stuff out of thin air, and that's almost out of nothin'. > Self-aware machines? How do we know that we humans are not machines > too? Digital information swirled around by Awareness. I will have to > read David Icke's latest book (coming out late April I believe) and > get back on the subject. Icke will probably not get a Nobel Prize for > his controversial research, but I am looking forward to his book which > will probably contain some craaaazy and mind-blowing stuff. > > al. > > ********Faithe: > > There has never been sufficient evidence provided for me to accept the stories of > JC and others. > > Putting that aside, " materializing things out of thin air " is not creating something from nothing. If you want to get fancy about it, it sounds like the rearrangement (materialization) of molecules... molecules which are " something " . Get the drift. > > Nothing means just that...nothing. > > > > > There is no such thing as nothing. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 There is no such thing as nothing. toombaru Faithe: If there is no such thing as nothiing, then something can not be created from nothing. ROFL You are one big trip Toomy. Careful now, don't stub your toe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > There is no such thing as nothing. > > > > toombaru Still signing your name to these wisps of the willow, eh ol' sport? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vacuous Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > > > > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even become > > > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very aware > > > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would it be > > > > self aware? > > > > > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is > > aware? Self aware= aware of self. How do you know you have a > > self? What is a self? Are self and awareness two different thing? > > > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions > > without that reason having been previously programmed,we must > > conclude it's aware of its motivations. > > > > > > Faithe: > > > A robot will never invent a cure for cancer, or write a poem, etc. A > > robot may be used in the process of developing a cure, etc. It will be > > the programming and wiring installed that makes the robot capable of > > churning much more information, more efficiently and accurately than > > an individual human mind can handle. > > > > > > Similar to all machinery which makes man's life more > > comfortable...an efficient furnace, a vehicle that moves more quickly > > than the legs of man, the airplane that allows man to fly, etc. > > > > > > A robot has as much of a chance of being " aware " or " self-aware " as > > a human does of creating something from nothing. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know. Jesus Christ and Sai Baba are known for having > > materialized stuff out of thin air, and that's almost out of nothin'. > > > > > > Sai Baba also mysteriously materializes receipts for the watches he gives out...... > > > > > > :-0 That makes his abilities even more impressive! :^) I wonder if he also can manifest changes in digital systems, such as putting $1000000000 into my bank account using a materialized electronic cash transaction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > > > > Al: A robot might some day invent a cure for > > > cancer, or compose highly creative art and poetry, maybe even become > > > the president of the U.S.A., but we would still don't know if that > > > robot is self aware or not. Such robot would of course be very aware > > > of the world around it and possess high intelligence, but would it be > > > self aware? > > > > > P: Al your question was how can we know if the robot is > aware? Self aware= aware of self. How do you know you have a > self? What is a self? Are self and awareness two different thing? > > So, if the robut can give a credible reason for its actions > without that reason having been previously programmed,we must > conclude it's aware of its motivations. > > > > Faithe: > > A robot will never invent a cure for cancer, or write a poem, etc. A > robot may be used in the process of developing a cure, etc. It will be > the programming and wiring installed that makes the robot capable of > churning much more information, more efficiently and accurately than > an individual human mind can handle. > > > > Similar to all machinery which makes man's life more > comfortable...an efficient furnace, a vehicle that moves more quickly > than the legs of man, the airplane that allows man to fly, etc. > > > > A robot has as much of a chance of being " aware " or " self-aware " as > a human does of creating something from nothing. > > > > > > I don't know. Jesus Christ and Sai Baba are known for having > materialized stuff out of thin air, and that's almost out of nothin'. > Self-aware machines? How do we know that we humans are not machines > too? Digital information swirled around by Awareness. I will have to > read David Icke's latest book (coming out late April I believe) and > get back on the subject. Icke will probably not get a Nobel Prize for > his controversial research, but I am looking forward to his book which > will probably contain some craaaazy and mind-blowing stuff. > > al. > > ********Faithe: > > There has never been sufficient evidence provided for me to accept the stories of > JC and others. > > Putting that aside, " materializing things out of thin air " is not creating something from nothing. If you want to get fancy about it, it sounds like the rearrangement (materialization) of molecules... molecules which are " something " . Get the drift. > > Nothing means just that...nothing. > > 'Nothing' is just an idea. Empty space is not nothing since one point in space can exist at a different location than another point in that same space. 'Nothing' can't have any dimensions. I guess that there is no such 'thing' as nothing other than as a concept. And the whole idea of material stuff and space. Is there really a difference between space and matter other than as an appearance? What is the relation between an atom and space? Is there a boundary where the atom ends and space begins? al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > > There is no such thing as nothing. > > > > toombaru > > Faithe: > > If there is no such thing as nothiing, then something can not be created from nothing. ROFL > > You are one big trip Toomy. Careful now, don't stub your toe. > Ahhhh....you are thinking that something was created? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Ahhhh....you are thinking that something was created? toombaru Faithe: Now where did you get that idea from anything that I said? Reread the postings toombaru. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Faithe Arden " <faithe@v...> wrote: > Ahhhh....you are thinking that something was created? > > > > > toombaru > > Faithe: > > Now where did you get that idea from anything that I said? > > Reread the postings toombaru. > > > > > Can't go back. Can't go back. Fast moving river. Don't care what you thought you believed......back then..... Everything moving........changing....... Look.......what's that? Oh.......my god.......look! Do you see That? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Toomy: Can't go back. Can't go back. Faithe: Hurry up....walk backwards. Toomy: Fast moving river. Faithe: Where? Toomy: Don't care what you thought you believed......back then..... Faithe: I don't either...just paddle back wards or you will continue to drown, over & over & over again. Toomy: Everything moving........changing....... Look.......what's that? Faithe: It's............................ ............................ ......................... no more............ Toomy......... wahhhhhhh. Toomy: Oh.......my god.......look! Do you see That? Faithe: Oh....my, yes, wait....no god...... gone, all is gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
