Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/11/05 10:07:21 PM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > P: Nah! He just doesn't understand logic. > > > > > > > > > > > T: The attempt to apply logic to an illogical assumption......is insanity. > > > P: Another nonsense masterpiece! You have made nonsense > your art form! Illogical situations and statements are what logic > was designed to unmask. Your statement makes as much sense, > as saying: To use medicine on sick people is insanity. Maybe a > little humor is called for here. You should use Woody's famous > retort. When someone pointed out he was talking nonsense, he > asked in total amazement, " You mean to tell me, my whole > fallacy is wrong? " > > > > T: The claim that one can be logical about things spiritual is delusional. > > > P: Toom, you are not even clear about what discipline your statements > fall under. To say: " Everything is a dream " is not a spiritual > statement, > it's a philosophical one, it's a view of the world. With 'everything' as > a qualifier you are not talking only about souls, and gods, but also about > your loved ones, and .... hamburgers. > > > > > > T: Under all that dirt......what was the real color of Cinderella's dress? > > well.............Cinderella's dress wasn't real......and speculating about > > its real color....although interesting...can lead to nothing of value. > > > P: When you state: " Everything is a dream, " Cinderella's dress > becomes as real as your love > for your wife. Pete, I never said " everything is a dream " ..... That would mean that the dream is also a dream.... I said that there is nothing beyond the dream of separation. There is a difference. toombaru > > > > T: In saying that toombaru has absolutely no idea what color Cinderella's > > dress really is.....Pete is claiming that he does. > > > P: What you have no idea of, is that terms like real and dream, if used in > an absolute sense, > have no meaning whatsoever. That everything could be a dream or not, > doesn't change > a damn thing about pain and pleasure, suffering and joy, and life and death. > As Woody said, > " You can question reality all you want, but it's the only place you can get a > decent meal. " > > > > T:So......Pete.......what is the color of Cinderella's dress? > > > We can " a-dress " that with poetry better than logic, as > I did sometime ago with this poem: > > Emptiness dreaming stuff, > Stuff dreaming emptiness. > And in the belly of the dream, > a dream dreams: " I'm awake. " > > Pete > How's this logic thing workin for ya? Oh...and.....every identified entity believes that they are awake.....It's one of the sure indicators that they are not. toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/05 1:38:48 PM, polansky writes: > > Pete, > > > > > > I never said " everything is a dream " ..... > > > > > > That would mean that the dream is also a dream.... > > > > > > > > > I said that there is nothing beyond the dream of separation. > > > > > > > > > There is a difference. > > > > > > > > > P: If you want to retract, or modify your statement that is fine > > > with me. But here is what you wrote to Devi: > > > > " Devi.....there is nothing ...outside of the dream. " > > > > P: No mention of separation there. It's a blanket statement. > > If there is nothing outside the dream, then everything > > is the dream. I'm willing to hear any irrefutable > > 'sophistry'you care to spin concerning differences between > > those staments. ) > > > > > devi: are you talking to me? > > No, Mrs. De Niro, I wasn't talking to you. ) > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 8:26:21 AM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > Pete, > > > > I never said " everything is a dream " ..... > > > > That would mean that the dream is also a dream.... > > > > > > I said that there is nothing beyond the dream of separation. > > > > > > There is a difference. > > > > > > P: If you want to retract, or modify your statement that is fine > > with me. But here is what you wrote to Devi: > > " Devi.....there is nothing ...outside of the dream. " > > P: No mention of separation there. It's a blanket statement. > If there is nothing outside the dream, then everything > is the dream. I'm willing to hear any irrefutable > 'sophistry'you care to spin concerning differences between > those staments. ) > > devi: are you talking to me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 8:26:21 AM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > Pete, > > > > I never said " everything is a dream " ..... > > > > That would mean that the dream is also a dream.... > > > > > > I said that there is nothing beyond the dream of separation. > > > > > > There is a difference. > > > > > > P: If you want to retract, or modify your statement that is fine > > with me. But here is what you wrote to Devi: > > " Devi.....there is nothing ...outside of the dream. " > > P: No mention of separation there. It's a blanket statement. > If there is nothing outside the dream, then everything > is the dream. I'm willing to hear any irrefutable > 'sophistry'you care to spin concerning differences between > those staments. ) Pete, What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/05 5:07:24 PM, cptc writes: > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > P: It means someone is dreaming with eternal consciousness and the sound > > of sleight's bells in the snow. You may sing that in a deep syrupy voice > with > > the melody of " I'm Dreaming with a White Christmas " > > > > Pete, > > > The statement: " All there is is consciousness " seems to be saying that there > is nothing > outside of consciousness. > > What do you think it means? > > > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation and the background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it would probably mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher brain functions such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world are gone. To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of everything. The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe vanish for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of all being. This is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the source of light. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > toombaru means: there's something going on here but you don't know what it is.... do you.... Mr. Jones? f. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " > means? > > > > > > toombaru > > > means: > > there's something going on here > but you don't know what it is.... > do you.... Mr. Jones? > > f. .......and you never will. t. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 2:30:26 PM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > > > > toombaru > > > > P: It means someone is dreaming with eternal consciousness and the sound > of sleight's bells in the snow. You may sing that in a deep syrupy voice with > the melody of " I'm Dreaming with a White Christmas " Pete, The statement: " All there is is consciousness " seems to be saying that there is nothing outside of consciousness. What do you think it means? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 5:07:24 PM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > P: It means someone is dreaming with eternal consciousness and the sound > > > of sleight's bells in the snow. You may sing that in a deep syrupy voice > > with > > > the melody of " I'm Dreaming with a White Christmas " > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > > > The statement: " All there is is consciousness " seems to be saying that there > > is nothing > > outside of consciousness. > > > > What do you think it means? > > > > > > > > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation > and the > background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it > would probably > mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher > brain functions > such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world are > gone. > To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of > everything. > The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe > vanish > for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of all > being. This > is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the > source of light. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Pedsie2 wrote: In a message dated 3/12/05 5:07:24 PM, cptc writes: > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > P: It means someone is dreaming with eternal consciousness and the sound > > of sleight's bells in the snow. You may sing that in a deep syrupy voice > with > > the melody of " I'm Dreaming with a White Christmas " > > > > Pete, > > > The statement: " All there is is consciousness " seems to be saying that there > is nothing > outside of consciousness. > > What do you think it means? > > > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation and the background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it would probably mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher brain functions such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world are gone. To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of everything. The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe vanish for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of all being. This is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the source of light. The phrase " Everything that is is Consciosness " is taken from the Yoga Vasistha. If people want to take it out of context and play with it, so be it. If you really want to know the stated meaning, you might read the Yoga Vasistha (not a bad book). In the intro to " Be As You Are " , Godman says about Ramana Maharshi, " At the highest level that could be expressed in words he would say that consciousness alone exists " . richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , Richard <richarkar> wrote: > > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 5:07:24 PM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > P: It means someone is dreaming with eternal consciousness and the sound > > > of sleight's bells in the snow. You may sing that in a deep syrupy voice > > with > > > the melody of " I'm Dreaming with a White Christmas " > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > > > The statement: " All there is is consciousness " seems to be saying that there > > is nothing > > outside of consciousness. > > > > What do you think it means? > > > > > > > > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation > and the > background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it > would probably > mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher > brain functions > such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world are > gone. > To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of > everything. > The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe > vanish > for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of all > being. This > is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the > source of light. > > > > The phrase " Everything that is is Consciosness " is taken from the Yoga Vasistha. If people want to take it out of context and play with it, so be it. If you really want to know the stated meaning, you might read the Yoga Vasistha (not a bad book). > > In the intro to " Be As You Are " , Godman says about Ramana Maharshi, " At the highest level that could be expressed in words he would say that consciousness alone exists " . > > richard > Well..... Pete would say that that is impossible.... Maybe he knows something that Ramana doesn't. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/05 11:32:35 PM, cptc writes: > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation > > and the > > background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it > > would probably > > mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher > > brain functions > > such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world > are > > gone. > > To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of > > everything. > > The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe > > vanish > > for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of > all > > being. This > > is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the > > source of light. > > > > > > > > The phrase " Everything that is is Consciosness " is taken from the Yoga > Vasistha. If people want to take it out of context and play with it, so be it. > If you really want to know the stated meaning, you might read the Yoga > Vasistha (not a bad book). > > > > In the intro to " Be As You Are " , Godman says about Ramana Maharshi, " At > the highest level that could be expressed in words he would say that > consciousness alone exists " . > > > > richard > > > > > T: Well..... Pete would say that that is impossible.... > > Maybe he knows something that Ramana doesn't. > P: No! I don't say it's impossible, I say it's highly improbable. More improbable that you will be killed by a meteorite this very morning. To fully see all the implications of believing, we must understand what words such as true, false, impossible, probable, believing, and knowing means, and for that, we must apply the rules of logic (from logos = reason) The science which deals with the validity of inference and demonstration. Statements could sound true, while not being so. That a statement is either true or false sounds very reasonable, but it's false. A statement could be neither, it might be just probable. A weather forecast of rain for tomorrow is just a probability of rain that a meteorologist has chosen to believe relying on his data and experience. If you chose to believe it too, you are doing so solely relying on your faith in the accuracy of weather forecasting because you have neither his experience nor data available to take an educated gamble. That is what a belief essentially is, a gamble. And when it comes to spirituality and religion the bets have very little reliable data to back them up. An addicted gambler at a casino really gambles not to win, but to feel good for a few minutes or hours. The data and his own experience tells him/her the odds are definitely in favor of the casino, yet he is willing to take the chance for emotional reasons. So Richard chooses to bet on the Yoga Vasistha and Ramana. Why? Did he know those men? Has Richard any knowledge about the data, experience, perceptions or apperceptions these men rely on to reach such conclusions. Could not these men have reached completely different conclusions based on those apperceptions if they had been born and educated as Methodists, or atheists? No. Richard is in the same position as you are about tomorrow's weather. Richard has placed his bet relying in the authority of those men, and most importantly because of his emotional needs. So what is really significant about our beliefs is not whether they will turn out to be true or not, but.... WHY WE NEED THEN. Why is the FUTURE so important? WHY we need this ASSURANCE about a FUTURE. If you would be completely satisfied in the present, would beliefs be necessary? See clearly that a belief is a gamble that the future will turn out to be as you wish. A belief points to an insufficiency in the present. Wouldn't it be wise to inquire which needs are those that make us belief? Beliefs only make us feel better that this now who we find unacceptable, will change according to our WiISHES. Pete > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " > > means? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > means: > > > > there's something going on here > > but you don't know what it is.... > > do you.... Mr. Jones? > > > > f. > > > ......and you never will. > > > t. You raise up your head and you ask " is this where it is? " And somebody points to you and says " its his " And you say " what's mine? " and somebody else says " well WHAT is " And you say " oh my god - am i here all alone? " But something is happening here And you don't know what it is, do you, Mister Jones You hand in you ticket and you go watch the geek Who immediately walks up to you when he hears you speak Saying " how does it feel to be such a freak? " And you say " impossible " as he hands you a bone And something is happening here But you don't know what it is, do you, Mister Jones You've been with the professors, and they all liked your looks With great lawyers you have discussed lepers and crooks You've read all of F. Scott Fitzgerald's books You're very well read, its well known But something is happening here And you don't know what it is, do you, Mister Jones Now you see this one-eyed midget saying the word " now " And you say " for what reason? " and he says " how? " And you say " what does this mean? " and he screams back " you're a cow! Give me some milk - or else go home! " And you KNOW somethings happening here But you dont know what it is, do you, Mister Jones some lyrics from " Ballad of a Thin Man " from Highway 61 Revisited bobby zimmerman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 In a message dated 3/13/05 10:00:19 AM, polansky writes: > D: Everything is consciousness everything is Atman everthing is Self... > means the *stuff* everything is made of... > a chair is consciousess on the physical plane the mind makes it feel > solid...but the solidity is mind made....not the reality...the > realizty is that everything is made of *consciousness* > > P: Take the scientific aproach, step in front of a speeding truck to test > your theory > about solidity. LOL! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , Richard <richarkar> wrote: > > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 5:07:24 PM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > What do you think the statement: " All there is, is consciousness " means? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > P: It means someone is dreaming with eternal consciousness and the sound > > > of sleight's bells in the snow. You may sing that in a deep syrupy voice > > with > > > the melody of " I'm Dreaming with a White Christmas " > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > > > The statement: " All there is is consciousness " seems to be saying that there > > is nothing > > outside of consciousness. > > > > What do you think it means? > > > > > > > > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation > and the > background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co- worker, it > would probably > mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher > brain functions > such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world are > gone. > To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of > everything. > The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe > vanish > for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of all > being. This > is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the > source of light. > > > > The phrase " Everything that is is Consciosness " is taken from the Yoga Vasistha. If people want to take it out of context and play with it, so be it. If you really want to know the stated meaning, you might read the Yoga Vasistha (not a bad book). > > In the intro to " Be As You Are " , Godman says about Ramana Maharshi, " At the highest level that could be expressed in words he would say that consciousness alone exists " . > > richard > > > devi: the words God or Self or Supreme or Atman in this case can be used in that expression....Atman Alone Exists...Self Alone Exists..God Alone exists...Consciousness Alone Exists...at the Highest Level these are all the same meaning Everything is consciousness everything is Atman everthing is Self... means the *stuff* everything is made of... a chair is consciousess on the physical plane the mind makes it feel solid...but the solidity is mind made....not the reality...the realizty is that everything is made of *consciousness* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 In a message dated 3/13/05 4:47:40 PM, polansky writes: > D: materialization and bi-location aren't *siddhis* i've been able to > develop although i have tried at varios points in time...to put my > hand through the wall, chuckles... > P: What siddhis have you developed? I so far can fly like a bird..... as long as I have money to buy an airline ticket. I also used to walk on water ( that's when I lived in Chicago, and it was winter and the pond in the park was frozen.) I also changed water into wine by mixing wine with water. > > D: i do think i've read a few believable stories... > > i have two friends who where abducted by aliens but becasue its not > my experience should i think they are lying? impossible...? > P: I also was abducted by aliens in my youth..... well two mexican whores in the San Ysidro border with Mexico. But that quallifies, right? > > D: i always think if your pure enough you can tell the truth from the > false in any case... > P: Not only if you are pure ... also if .... you're too drunk, dumb, or gullible to tell when people are putting you on. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 In a message dated 3/13/05 6:39:09 PM, richarkar writes: > Pete, you make some insightful points. Even though I believe that bodily > death is no big deal (bodies come and go all the time), I do want assurance of > the future, particularly since receiving diagnoses of some life-threatening > conditions. So I pose the question to all: What happens after bodily death? > Hi Richard, Sorry to hear about your health. Let's see if we could put that in perspective. We all have received diagnosis of life threatening conditions. No one alive today could be certain of being alive tomorrow, a fact most choose to ignore. Deadly car accidents, heart attacks, strokes, falls, etc., happen every day. If I remember correctly about 40,000 people on the average die every day around the world. That means hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people who were alive when you received those news, and who thought they were in perfect health, are dead now, while you are still here. Regarding what happens after the death of my body I have reasons to think it wouldn't be any different that what was happening before its conception. And that is fine with me. I have not a single reason to complain about that prenatal state. It took billions of years for the universe to get ready to produce a Pete, or a Richard, so obviously, it wasn't an easy task. Let me share with you, a little piece I wrote sometime ago, and that could shed some light, or not, on the subject. A Zen Detective Investigates Death " What's going to happen after I die? " I asked the Zen detective. " Why do you want to know? " It worries me. " " What happened before you were conceived? " I don't know. " " Doesn't that worry you? " " Not really. " " Why not? It could have been terrible. " " Maybe, but it's over and I don't remember. It's what will happen after death that worries me. " " I don't get it, " he said looking amused. " You don't worry about it because it isn't happening now and because you don't remember. Right? " " Right. " " Well, what will happen after death is not happening now and you don't remember it either. So why should it bother you? " " Are you trying to be cute? I didn't hire you to be cute. I want to know the truth. " He smiled and rubbed his bald head. " Investigating a future crime is very difficult, I'm going to need your full cooperation. I don't want to hide from you that you are the main suspect. " " Me? How could I be a suspect regarding my fate after death? " " Excuse me, the crime I'm investigating isn't your fate, but your imaginary death. " " Don't be ridiculous! How could my death be imaginary? It's a certainty I'm going to die. " " Is it really? Are you dying this very instant? " " No. " " Who is the one then who is going to die? Is the baby, the child, the young man you once were the one who is going to die? " " No, they are gone, but my body is going to die and this was their body. " " Are you sure of that? Is the size of the body the same? " " No. " " Is the shape, and weigh the same? " " No. " " Are the atoms the same? " " No, all atoms in the body are replaced every seven years. " " So neither the form, nor the substance is the same? Correct? " " My memories are. I'm the memory of my life. " He laughed. " It seems you are becoming less substantial with each question. " Do you remember every hour of your life? " " No I don't. " " Do you remember every day, every month of your life? " " No. " " So your memories have been dying all along, have they not? " " Yes. " " Has this caused you any pain? " " No. " " When a memory vanishes are you aware it's vanishing? " " Not at all. " " Could you be then your memories and don't feel anything when they perish? " " I don't thing so. " " So neither your form, your substance, your thoughts, feelings, perceptions, opinions or memories have remained the same throughout your life? " " My consciousness has. " " Your consciousness of what? " " Not my consciousness of something. Just pure consciousness. " " Have you ever been conscious without being conscious of something? " " I don't think so. " " Consciousness is not a permanent state is it? under an anesthetic you are not conscious, are you? So if a drug can discontinue consciousness, is there a reason to think it will persist after death? " " Maybe not. " " So we haven't found anything permanent to call yourself? Have we? Do you now who or what you really are? " he asked " No, I don't. " " Should you worry then about what happens to this elusive stranger after death? " " Suffering worries me. " " Suffering can only occur when we are conscious, and if consciousness can't an anesthetic, how could it survive death? So, if suffering worries you, inquire into how to stop it now. But I doubt that inquiry will interest you. People never worry about the present. Do they? It's the idea of the past or the future that causes most mental disquietude. " Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 D: Everything is consciousness everything is Atman everthing is Self...means the *stuff* everything is made of... a chair is consciousess on the physical plane the mind makes it feel solid...but the solidity is mind made....not the reality...the realizty is that everything is made of *consciousness* P: Take the scientific aproach, step in front of a speeding truck to test your theory about solidity. LOL! devi: thats a good argument....its not my realization/actualization so i can't go much further with my point of view... materialization and bi-location aren't *siddhis* i've been able to develop although i have tried at varios points in time...to put my hand through the wall, chuckles... i do think i've read a few believable stories... i have two friends who where abducted by aliens but becasue its not my experience should i think they are lying? impossible...? i always think if your pure enough you can tell the truth from the false in any case...my friends were telling the truth about the alien abductions and some of the yogies that i've read about were telling the truth about materialization and bilocation... > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 11:32:35 PM, cptc@w... writes: > > > > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation > > > and the > > > background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it > > > would probably > > > mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher > > > brain functions > > > such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world > > are > > > gone. > > > To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of > > > everything. > > > The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe > > > vanish > > > for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of > > all > > > being. This > > > is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the > > > source of light. > > > > > > > > > > > > The phrase " Everything that is is Consciosness " is taken from the Yoga > > Vasistha. If people want to take it out of context and play with it, so be it. > > If you really want to know the stated meaning, you might read the Yoga > > Vasistha (not a bad book). > > > > > > In the intro to " Be As You Are " , Godman says about Ramana Maharshi, " At > > the highest level that could be expressed in words he would say that > > consciousness alone exists " . > > > > > > richard > > > > > > > > > T: Well..... Pete would say that that is impossible.... > > > > Maybe he knows something that Ramana doesn't. > > > P: No! I don't say it's impossible, I say it's highly improbable. More > improbable > that you will be killed by a meteorite this very morning. To fully see all > the > implications of believing, we must understand what words such as true, > false, impossible, probable, believing, and knowing means, and for that, we > must apply the rules of logic (from logos = reason) The science which > deals with the validity of inference and demonstration. > > Statements could sound true, while not being so. That a statement > is either true or false sounds very reasonable, but it's false. A statement > could > be neither, it might be just probable. A weather forecast of rain for > tomorrow > is just a probability of rain that a meteorologist has chosen to believe > relying > on his data and experience. If you chose to believe it too, you are doing so > solely relying on your faith in the accuracy of weather forecasting because > you have neither his experience nor data available to take an educated > gamble. That is what a belief essentially is, a gamble. And when it comes > to spirituality and religion the bets have very little reliable data to back > them up. > > An addicted gambler at a casino really gambles not to win, but to feel good > for a few minutes or hours. The data and his own experience tells him/her > the odds are definitely in favor of the casino, yet he is willing to take the > chance for emotional reasons. So Richard chooses to bet on the Yoga Vasistha > and Ramana. Why? Did he know those men? Has Richard any knowledge about > the data, experience, perceptions or apperceptions these men rely on to > reach > such conclusions. Could not these men have reached completely different > conclusions > based on those apperceptions if they had been born and educated as > Methodists, > or atheists? No. Richard is in the same position as you are about > tomorrow's weather. > Richard has placed his bet relying in the authority of those men, and most > importantly because of his emotional needs. > > So what is really significant about our beliefs is not whether they will turn > out to > be true or not, but.... WHY WE NEED THEN. Why is the FUTURE so important? > WHY we need this ASSURANCE about a FUTURE. If you would be completely > satisfied in the present, would beliefs be necessary? See clearly that a > belief is > a gamble that the future will turn out to be as you wish. The one attempting to see that is not other then the clot of beliefs that it is trying to see. A belief points > to an > insufficiency in the present. Wouldn't it be wise to inquire which needs are > those that make us belief? It is the needs themselves that comprise the so called individual. Needs looking at needs. Beliefs only make us feel better that this now > who > we find unacceptable, will change according to our WiISHES. > " We " are not separate from our beliefs about our selves. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Pedsie2 wrote: In a message dated 3/12/05 11:32:35 PM, cptc writes: > P: Obviously, the phrase meaning depends on the context of the conversation > > and the > > background of the users. To a neurologist hearing it from a co-worker, it > > would probably > > mean consciousness is the primary brain function. Without it most higher > > brain functions > > such as thinking, talking, sensing and intelligent reacting to the world > are > > gone. > > To a nondual seeker it most likely means Consciousness as the creator of > > everything. > > The seeker naively reasons that because without consciousness the universe > > vanish > > for him, that this justifies his belief in consciousness as the ground of > all > > being. This > > is just as silly as if he were to believe that the faculty of sight is the > > source of light. > > > > > > > > The phrase " Everything that is is Consciosness " is taken from the Yoga > Vasistha. If people want to take it out of context and play with it, so be it. > If you really want to know the stated meaning, you might read the Yoga > Vasistha (not a bad book). > > > > In the intro to " Be As You Are " , Godman says about Ramana Maharshi, " At > the highest level that could be expressed in words he would say that > consciousness alone exists " . > > > > richard > > > > > T: Well..... Pete would say that that is impossible.... > > Maybe he knows something that Ramana doesn't. > P: No! I don't say it's impossible, I say it's highly improbable. More improbable that you will be killed by a meteorite this very morning. To fully see all the implications of believing, we must understand what words such as true, false, impossible, probable, believing, and knowing means, and for that, we must apply the rules of logic (from logos = reason) The science which deals with the validity of inference and demonstration. Statements could sound true, while not being so. That a statement is either true or false sounds very reasonable, but it's false. A statement could be neither, it might be just probable. A weather forecast of rain for tomorrow is just a probability of rain that a meteorologist has chosen to believe relying on his data and experience. If you chose to believe it too, you are doing so solely relying on your faith in the accuracy of weather forecasting because you have neither his experience nor data available to take an educated gamble. That is what a belief essentially is, a gamble. And when it comes to spirituality and religion the bets have very little reliable data to back them up. An addicted gambler at a casino really gambles not to win, but to feel good for a few minutes or hours. The data and his own experience tells him/her the odds are definitely in favor of the casino, yet he is willing to take the chance for emotional reasons. So Richard chooses to bet on the Yoga Vasistha and Ramana. Why? Did he know those men? Has Richard any knowledge about the data, experience, perceptions or apperceptions these men rely on to reach such conclusions. Could not these men have reached completely different conclusions based on those apperceptions if they had been born and educated as Methodists, or atheists? No. Richard is in the same position as you are about tomorrow's weather. Richard has placed his bet relying in the authority of those men, and most importantly because of his emotional needs. So what is really significant about our beliefs is not whether they will turn out to be true or not, but.... WHY WE NEED THEN. Why is the FUTURE so important? WHY we need this ASSURANCE about a FUTURE. If you would be completely satisfied in the present, would beliefs be necessary? See clearly that a belief is a gamble that the future will turn out to be as you wish. A belief points to an insufficiency in the present. Wouldn't it be wise to inquire which needs are those that make us belief? Beliefs only make us feel better that this now who we find unacceptable, will change according to our WiISHES. Pete Pete, you make some insightful points. Even though I believe that bodily death is no big deal (bodies come and go all the time), I do want assurance of the future, particularly since receiving diagnoses of some life-threatening conditions. So I pose the question to all: What happens after bodily death? About Ramana Maharshi: Anyone who doesn't know of his experiences, perceptions,etc. just isn't interested, because there is so much written by him, about him, and transcribed from many many satsangs. Ramana Maharshi's enlightening experience was not religious, but spiritual. At age 16 due to a death preminition, he simulated the death experience and saw what it is that dies (body, mind, senses) and what never dies (his true nature--Atma). He was unaware that many of his insights and experiences were in Holy books until disciples brought it to his attention. Another spiritual experience: Howard Storm wrote a book telling how he was an atheist and publicly debated believers in God. Until he had an NDE, saw God, and then became a minister. Yes, I " place my bet " on these and the stories of many others, but also I believe in my own life-changing spiritual experiences. Regards, Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , Richard <richarkar> wrote: > > >So I pose the question to all: What happens after bodily death? Golden: Who cares? I would rather pose the question to you - why do *you* care? Al is interested in focusing on past and you seem interested in focusing on future. If you pre-occupy with this you miss out on experiencing the present even in the midst of death. Escapism from the present is a full time job it seems. It sounds very holy if you bring the word god into it though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Richard <richarkar> wrote: > > > > > >So I pose the question to all: What happens after bodily death? > > The body breaks down and after a while........ disappears entirely. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > " We " are not separate from our beliefs about our selves. > a newborn has no beliefs. it still has an " I " . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , Richard <richarkar> wrote: > > Pete, you make some insightful points. Even though I believe that bodily death is no big deal (bodies come and go all the time), I do want assurance of the future, particularly since receiving diagnoses of some life-threatening conditions. So I pose the question to all: What happens after bodily death? > no one knows or if they know they don't tell. the wise men have said death is the big sleep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > " We " are not separate from our beliefs about our selves. > > >hemantbhai100@h wrote: a newborn has no beliefs. it still has an " I " . Golden: If you want to get technical about it, the newborn has beliefs. It has the very same core beliefs that you do but it expresses them differently than an adult: - it believes it's hungry and cries and screams - it blieves it's cold and cries and/or screams - it believes it's hurting and cries and/or screams - it believes it needs to relieve itself and cries and/or screams when the diaper doesn't get disposed of. - it doesn't get these needs met and dies. Toombaru's statement is correct, we are not separate from our beliefs about our selves. The " I " is there too. An adult has many more elaborate beliefs it has developed in order to meet these basic needs, but the needs all boil down to the same thing and the same root/core belief that drives a baby. When you strip away all the glorified adult beliefs all that is left is the primal belief and need to be fed and warm/sheltered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
