Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > bologna, and > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is aware > of > > > his > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby fully > aware of > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too should be > aware > > > of > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;-----------) > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of his own > use > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware of the > > words from others, but they are not as important as the words from > the > > writer. )))))) > > Which word is the most important? > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > it over and over? > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have explained in an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, as are all concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > > bologna, and > > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is aware > > of > > > > his > > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby fully > > aware of > > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too should be > > aware > > > > of > > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;-----------) > > > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of his own > > use > > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware of the > > > words from others, but they are not as important as the words from > > the > > > writer. )))))) > > > > Which word is the most important? > > > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > > it over and over? > > > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? > > The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have explained in > an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, as are > all concepts. No. Particularly for you. The word is: No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > > > bologna, and > > > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is > aware > > > of > > > > > his > > > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby fully > > > aware of > > > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too should > be > > > aware > > > > > of > > > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;-----------) > > > > > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of his > own > > > use > > > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware of > the > > > > words from others, but they are not as important as the words > from > > > the > > > > writer. )))))) > > > > > > Which word is the most important? > > > > > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > > > it over and over? > > > > > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? > > > > The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have explained > in > > an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, as > are > > all concepts. > > No. > > Particularly for you. > > The word is: > > No. I think I know why I have such difficulty with final objects. For example pin codes. I can hardly remember more than a few. A pin code consisting of four numbers is two bytes of information. Two bytes! A computer can easily store trillions of bytes, and my mind has problem storing even two bytes. A pin code is a final object. For example, 4522 is a final number. If the correct pin code for opening a certain door is 4522, then the door will not open if I use another pin code, say 4523. This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of creating and storing final objects, such as a memory of a pin code or a thought about what I am going to do the next day. My brain (and also the entire nervous system in the body) has to form seemingly separate abstractions (objects/concepts) from a vast interconnected web that is not in reality separate. To remember a simple two bytes combination my mind has to form a frozen structure that represents for example a pin code withing this vast web. I cannot store two bytes like a computer, but instead in the form of a relational network withing the larger overall web. The mind itself is not a frozen structure so it requires effort to produce the illusion of frozen structures. Ultimately there is no " 4522 " anywhere in existence as a separate object! That's why I and many other people have problems remembering what seems such a simple structure. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Hi Anders, Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. Your wrote: This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of creating and storing final objects, What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could be) ? Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > > <dan330033> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > > > > bologna, and > > > > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is > > aware > > > > of > > > > > > his > > > > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby fully > > > > aware of > > > > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too should > > be > > > > aware > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;-----------) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > > > > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of his > > own > > > > use > > > > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware of > > the > > > > > words from others, but they are not as important as the words > > from > > > > the > > > > > writer. )))))) > > > > > > > > Which word is the most important? > > > > > > > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > > > > it over and over? > > > > > > > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? > > > > > > The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have explained > > in > > > an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, as > > are > > > all concepts. > > > > No. > > > > Particularly for you. > > > > The word is: > > > > No. > > I think I know why I have such difficulty with final objects. For > example pin codes. I can hardly remember more than a few. A pin code > consisting of four numbers is two bytes of information. Two bytes! A > computer can easily store trillions of bytes, and my mind has problem > storing even two bytes. A pin code is a final object. For example, > 4522 is a final number. If the correct pin code for opening a certain > door is 4522, then the door will not open if I use another pin code, > say 4523. > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > creating and storing final objects, such as a memory of a pin code or > a thought about what I am going to do the next day. My brain (and also > the entire nervous system in the body) has to form seemingly separate > abstractions (objects/concepts) from a vast interconnected web that is > not in reality separate. To remember a simple two bytes combination my > mind has to form a frozen structure that represents for example a pin > code withing this vast web. I cannot store two bytes like a computer, > but instead in the form of a relational network withing the larger > overall web. The mind itself is not a frozen structure so it requires > effort to produce the illusion of frozen structures. > > Ultimately there is no " 4522 " anywhere in existence as a separate > object! That's why I and many other people have problems remembering > what seems such a simple structure. > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Hi Anders, > > Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > > Your wrote: > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > creating and storing final objects, > > What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > be) ? > > Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > > Werner Effort comes from the idea that time is important. There is a mentally and emotionally surge arising in the human mechanism making it propel forward. That force is the power of time. If we are too lazy then the nervous feeling of time passing will be fed into our being, and if we are working to feverishly, that feeling will turn into fatigue. It's all an almost mechanical process making individual human beings work their asses off, simply by the fact of an internal tormentor constantly having a torch of fire blown into the ass of that person. /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > > > <dan330033> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > > > > > bologna, and > > > > > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is > > > aware > > > > > of > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby > fully > > > > > aware of > > > > > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too > should > > > be > > > > > aware > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;-----------) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > > > > > > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of > his > > > own > > > > > use > > > > > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware > of > > > the > > > > > > words from others, but they are not as important as the > words > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > writer. )))))) > > > > > > > > > > Which word is the most important? > > > > > > > > > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > > > > > it over and over? > > > > > > > > > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? > > > > > > > > The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have > explained > > > in > > > > an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, > as > > > are > > > > all concepts. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > Particularly for you. > > > > > > The word is: > > > > > > No. > > > > I think I know why I have such difficulty with final objects. For > > example pin codes. I can hardly remember more than a few. A pin code > > consisting of four numbers is two bytes of information. Two bytes! A > > computer can easily store trillions of bytes, and my mind has > problem > > storing even two bytes. A pin code is a final object. For example, > > 4522 is a final number. If the correct pin code for opening a > certain > > door is 4522, then the door will not open if I use another pin code, > > say 4523. > > > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This > effort, > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > creating and storing final objects, such as a memory of a pin code > or > > a thought about what I am going to do the next day. My brain (and > also > > the entire nervous system in the body) has to form seemingly > separate > > abstractions (objects/concepts) from a vast interconnected web that > is > > not in reality separate. To remember a simple two bytes combination > my > > mind has to form a frozen structure that represents for example a > pin > > code withing this vast web. I cannot store two bytes like a > computer, > > but instead in the form of a relational network withing the larger > > overall web. The mind itself is not a frozen structure so it > requires > > effort to produce the illusion of frozen structures. > > > > Ultimately there is no " 4522 " anywhere in existence as a separate > > object! That's why I and many other people have problems remembering > > what seems such a simple structure. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > > > > Your wrote: > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > creating and storing final objects, > > > > What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > > happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > > instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > > Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > > expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > > be) ? > > > > Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > > > > Werner > > Effort comes from the idea that time is important. There is a mentally > and emotionally surge arising in the human mechanism making it propel > forward. That force is the power of time. Hi Anders, Is it possible that the mental and emotional surge arising in the human mechanism making it propel forward could be conceived as other things, other than time? If we are too lazy then the > nervous feeling of time passing will be fed into our being, and if we > are working to feverishly, that feeling will turn into fatigue. It's > all an almost mechanical process making individual human beings work > their asses off, simply by the fact of an internal tormentor > constantly having a torch of fire blown into the ass of that person. > > /AL And seeing the consequence of this conception of experience, of the " arising surge, " what would be the consequences, conceptual or otherwise of conceiving that " arising surge " as it is differently? I have no final answer since I am unable to know what it is. In my case, it does not surge it simply moves as required, sometimes quiet on idle sometimes active and engaging, other times perplexed and hestitant and so on and it is a constant dynamic. This is just one way to put it. I have conceived the experience of this appearance in many ways as have others and it seems to lead to different perceptions with further experiences of its appearance and with different descriptions; arising surge, motivation, desire, want, expression, creativity, grasping, drive, internal tormentor, the will of God, the spirit of life, the devil in some cases, instinct, combinations of these and so on and on. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Hi Anders, > > Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > > Your wrote: > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > creating and storing final objects, > > What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > be) ? > > Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > > Werner > " He " is nothing other then the thoughts emerging through the brain housed in a body. .......a self-referential-reactive-loop ....composed of mnemonic debris. There is no " he " to choose his actions....to become aware of its self. There is nothing that this " entity " can do to affect a situation that does not even exist. toombaru > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > > > <dan330033> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > > > > > bologna, and > > > > > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is > > > aware > > > > > of > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby > fully > > > > > aware of > > > > > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too > should > > > be > > > > > aware > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;-----------) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > > > > > > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of > his > > > own > > > > > use > > > > > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware > of > > > the > > > > > > words from others, but they are not as important as the > words > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > writer. )))))) > > > > > > > > > > Which word is the most important? > > > > > > > > > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > > > > > it over and over? > > > > > > > > > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? > > > > > > > > The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have > explained > > > in > > > > an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, > as > > > are > > > > all concepts. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > Particularly for you. > > > > > > The word is: > > > > > > No. > > > > I think I know why I have such difficulty with final objects. For > > example pin codes. I can hardly remember more than a few. A pin code > > consisting of four numbers is two bytes of information. Two bytes! A > > computer can easily store trillions of bytes, and my mind has > problem > > storing even two bytes. A pin code is a final object. For example, > > 4522 is a final number. If the correct pin code for opening a > certain > > door is 4522, then the door will not open if I use another pin code, > > say 4523. > > > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This > effort, > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > creating and storing final objects, such as a memory of a pin code > or > > a thought about what I am going to do the next day. My brain (and > also > > the entire nervous system in the body) has to form seemingly > separate > > abstractions (objects/concepts) from a vast interconnected web that > is > > not in reality separate. To remember a simple two bytes combination > my > > mind has to form a frozen structure that represents for example a > pin > > code withing this vast web. I cannot store two bytes like a > computer, > > but instead in the form of a relational network withing the larger > > overall web. The mind itself is not a frozen structure so it > requires > > effort to produce the illusion of frozen structures. > > > > Ultimately there is no " 4522 " anywhere in existence as a separate > > object! That's why I and many other people have problems remembering > > what seems such a simple structure. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > > > > Your wrote: > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > creating and storing final objects, > > > > What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > > happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > > instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > > Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > > expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > > be) ? > > > > Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > > > > Werner > > > > > > " He " is nothing other then the thoughts emerging through the brain housed in a body. > > > ......a self-referential-reactive-loop ....composed of mnemonic debris. > > > > There is no " he " to choose his actions....to become aware of its self. > > > > There is nothing that this " entity " can do to affect a situation that does not even exist. > " He " is a product....a result.....a facet... of the infinite chain of causation. The whirlpool can never see the river. > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Lewis Burgess wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > >>Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: >> >>>Hi Anders, >>> >>>Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. >>> >>>Your wrote: >>>This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I >>>think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, >>>I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of >>>creating and storing final objects, >>> >>>What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would >>>happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you >>>instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? >>>Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the >>>expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could >>>be) ? >>> >>>Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? >>> >>>Werner >> >>Effort comes from the idea that time is important. There is a mentally >>and emotionally surge arising in the human mechanism making it propel >>forward. That force is the power of time. > > > Hi Anders, > > Is it possible that the mental and emotional surge arising in the > human mechanism making it propel forward could be conceived as other > things, other than time? > > If we are too lazy then the > >>nervous feeling of time passing will be fed into our being, and if we >>are working to feverishly, that feeling will turn into fatigue. It's >>all an almost mechanical process making individual human beings work >>their asses off, simply by the fact of an internal tormentor >>constantly having a torch of fire blown into the ass of that person. >> >>/AL > > > And seeing the consequence of this conception of experience, of the > " arising surge, " what would be the consequences, conceptual or > otherwise of conceiving that " arising surge " as it is differently? I > have no final answer since I am unable to know what it is. In my case, > it does not surge it simply moves as required, sometimes quiet on idle > sometimes active and engaging, other times perplexed and hestitant and > so on and it is a constant dynamic. This is just one way to put it. > > I have conceived the experience of this appearance in many ways as > have others and it seems to lead to different perceptions with further > experiences of its appearance and with different descriptions; arising > surge, motivation, desire, want, expression, creativity, grasping, > drive, internal tormentor, the will of God, the spirit of life, the > devil in some cases, instinct, combinations of these and so on and on. > > Lewis And would these many differing perceptions and descriptions of what appears to be an underlying indescribable appearance lead to different experiences in the world and explanations of it? If one thinks of that " indescribable " appearance as the movement of love in life towards union with all things would that lead to different experiences and understanding of the behavior of human appearances? If one thinks of that same indefinable appearance as instinct what experience and understanding of life emerges? Insert Freud's hydraulics and what do you get? Take Lacan's view of the real and what is present? How about St. John of the Cross's dark night of the soul? Or the anonymous Cloud of Unknowing? Or the Buddhist view of emptiness? Or the Advaita Vedantist's totality of Brahman/Atman. Each yields an experience, description, and behavioral result concerning the same indefinable, indescribable appearance. Below is a sample experience from the Cloud of Unknowing, if you have not drunk it already. Lewis The Cloud of Unknowing A BOOK OF CONTEMPLATION THE WHICH IS CALLED THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING, IN THE WHICH A SOUL IS ONED WITH GOD http://www.ccel.org/u/unknowing/cloud.htm HERE BEGINNETH THE THIRD CHAPTER LIFT up thine heart unto God with a meek stirring of love; and mean Himself, and none of His goods. And thereto, look the loath to think on aught but Himself. So that nought work in thy wit, nor in thy will, but only Himself. And do that in thee is to forget all the creatures that ever God made and the works of them; so that thy thought nor thy desire be not directed nor stretched to any of them, neither in general nor in special, but let them be, and take no heed to them. This is the work of the soul that most pleaseth God. All saints and angels have joy of this work, and hasten them to help it in all their might. All fiends be furious when thou thus dost, and try for to defeat it in all that they can. All men living in earth be wonderfully holpen of this work, thou wottest not how. Yea, the souls in purgatory be eased of their pain by virtue of this work. Thyself art cleansed and made virtuous by no work so much. And yet it is the lightest work of all, when a soul is helped with grace in sensible list, and soonest done. But else it is hard, and wonderful to thee for to do. Let not, therefore, but travail therein till thou feel list. For at the first time when thou dost it, thou findest but a darkness; and as it were a cloud of unknowing, thou knowest not what, saving that thou feelest in thy will a naked intent unto God. This darkness and this cloud is, howsoever thou dost, betwixt thee and thy God, and letteth thee that thou mayest neither see Him clearly by light of understanding in thy reason, nor feel Him in sweetness of love in thine affection. And therefore shape thee to bide in this darkness as long as thou mayest, evermore crying after Him that thou lovest. For if ever thou shalt feel Him or see Him, as it may be here, it behoveth always to be in this cloud in this darkness. And if thou wilt busily travail as I bid thee, I trust in His mercy that thou shalt come thereto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Hmm Toomb, Ok, next time before you leave the loo, watch attentively what mechanism decides to use paper to wipe your ass, is it your mom ? And then tell me who or what remembered this time to watch attentively why and which way you are wiping your ass. And the same way you can learn as soon as effort is arising to let go. But ok, if you are stubborn enough, you can tell me now that you, Toomb, are not able to learn and do and act in a new way because there is not entity. Oh my God, there is no entity - I am lost! Werner Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > > > > Your wrote: > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > creating and storing final objects, > > > > What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > > happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > > instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > > Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > > expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > > be) ? > > > > Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > > > > Werner > > > > > > " He " is nothing other then the thoughts emerging through the brain housed in a body. > > > ......a self-referential-reactive-loop ....composed of mnemonic debris. > > > > There is no " he " to choose his actions....to become aware of its self. > > > > There is nothing that this " entity " can do to affect a situation that does not even exist. > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > > <dan330033> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > > > > <dan330033> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must recognize the differwence between the idea of > > > > > > bologna, and > > > > > > > > > actually smelling bologna - IN TH MOMENT. The writer is > > > > aware > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > own use of words, of ideas about things, and thereby > > fully > > > > > > aware of > > > > > > > > > the second-hand nature of what is written. You too > > should > > > > be > > > > > > aware > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the third-hand nature when reading this. ;---------- -) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Haha! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " You, too, should ... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the writer already has written; the writer is aware of > > his > > > > own > > > > > > use > > > > > > > of words. LOL! Insidently, the writer are also fully aware > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > words from others, but they are not as important as the > > words > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > writer. )))))) > > > > > > > > > > > > Which word is the most important? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can we find that one and just keep posting > > > > > > it over and over? > > > > > > > > > > > > Sort of a short-cut to truth? > > > > > > > > > > The word 'is' is the most important word. But as I have > > explained > > > > in > > > > > an earlier post, this word is not final, but in constant flux, > > as > > > > are > > > > > all concepts. > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > Particularly for you. > > > > > > > > The word is: > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > I think I know why I have such difficulty with final objects. For > > > example pin codes. I can hardly remember more than a few. A pin code > > > consisting of four numbers is two bytes of information. Two bytes! A > > > computer can easily store trillions of bytes, and my mind has > > problem > > > storing even two bytes. A pin code is a final object. For example, > > > 4522 is a final number. If the correct pin code for opening a > > certain > > > door is 4522, then the door will not open if I use another pin code, > > > say 4523. > > > > > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This > > effort, > > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > > creating and storing final objects, such as a memory of a pin code > > or > > > a thought about what I am going to do the next day. My brain (and > > also > > > the entire nervous system in the body) has to form seemingly > > separate > > > abstractions (objects/concepts) from a vast interconnected web that > > is > > > not in reality separate. To remember a simple two bytes combination > > my > > > mind has to form a frozen structure that represents for example a > > pin > > > code withing this vast web. I cannot store two bytes like a > > computer, > > > but instead in the form of a relational network withing the larger > > > overall web. The mind itself is not a frozen structure so it > > requires > > > effort to produce the illusion of frozen structures. > > > > > > Ultimately there is no " 4522 " anywhere in existence as a separate > > > object! That's why I and many other people have problems remembering > > > what seems such a simple structure. > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Hmm Toomb, > > Ok, next time before you leave the loo, watch attentively what > mechanism decides to use paper to wipe your ass, is it your mom ? > > And then tell me who or what remembered this time to watch > attentively why and which way you are wiping your ass. > > And the same way you can learn as soon as effort is arising to let go. > > But ok, if you are stubborn enough, you can tell me now that you, > Toomb, are not able to learn and do and act in a new way because > there is not entity. > > Oh my God, there is no entity - I am lost! > > Werner Werner...... There is no " you " to be lost. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Lewis Burgess " <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > > > Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > > > > > > Your wrote: > > > This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > > > think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > > > I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > > > creating and storing final objects, > > > > > > What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > > > happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > > > instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > > > Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > > > expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > > > be) ? > > > > > > Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > Effort comes from the idea that time is important. There is a mentally > > and emotionally surge arising in the human mechanism making it propel > > forward. That force is the power of time. > > Hi Anders, > > Is it possible that the mental and emotional surge arising in the > human mechanism making it propel forward could be conceived as other > things, other than time? I don't know. > > If we are too lazy then the > > nervous feeling of time passing will be fed into our being, and if we > > are working to feverishly, that feeling will turn into fatigue. It's > > all an almost mechanical process making individual human beings work > > their asses off, simply by the fact of an internal tormentor > > constantly having a torch of fire blown into the ass of that person. > > > > /AL > > And seeing the consequence of this conception of experience, of the > " arising surge, " what would be the consequences, conceptual or > otherwise of conceiving that " arising surge " as it is differently? I > have no final answer since I am unable to know what it is. In my case, > it does not surge it simply moves as required, sometimes quiet on idle > sometimes active and engaging, other times perplexed and hestitant and > so on and it is a constant dynamic. This is just one way to put it. > > I have conceived the experience of this appearance in many ways as > have others and it seems to lead to different perceptions with further > experiences of its appearance and with different descriptions; arising > surge, motivation, desire, want, expression, creativity, grasping, > drive, internal tormentor, the will of God, the spirit of life, the > devil in some cases, instinct, combinations of these and so on and on. > > Lewis For me this surge is painful, I see it as an internal conflict between the " past " in me and the living moment. I realize that all materal stuff I am aware of is the past; all molecules in my body, all molecules outside my body... So I know I just can't " get rid of the past " in order to remove the conflict. It's a very complex conflict. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Ok Toomb, Someone puts a gun at your head and telling you that in 10 secs he will pull the trigger and within this span you should tell him if you are lost or not. What will be your answer ? Will you philosophize or will your survival instinct do the right thing ? There is no need for an entity to give the right answer which further on will give us here on this list the pleasure and honour to go on reading and answering your posts. Werner Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Hmm Toomb, > > > > Ok, next time before you leave the loo, watch attentively what > > mechanism decides to use paper to wipe your ass, is it your mom ? > > > > And then tell me who or what remembered this time to watch > > attentively why and which way you are wiping your ass. > > > > And the same way you can learn as soon as effort is arising to let go. > > > > But ok, if you are stubborn enough, you can tell me now that you, > > Toomb, are not able to learn and do and act in a new way because > > there is not entity. > > > > Oh my God, there is no entity - I am lost! > > > > Werner > > > > Werner...... > > There is no " you " to be lost. > > > toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > Lewis Burgess wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > >>Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > >> > >>>Hi Anders, > >>> > >>>Your post was addressed to Dan, so forgive me to answer too. > >>> > >>>Your wrote: > >>>This difficulty I think has to do with how my mind operates. When I > >>>think, I have often to put some effort into the thinking. This effort, > >>>I have come to believe, comes from the computational process of > >>>creating and storing final objects, > >>> > >>>What or who is forcing you to put effort into thinking ? What would > >>>happen next time you realize the beginning of effort and you > >>>instantly let go (just for the fun of it)? Would then arise fear ? > >>>Fear of what ? Fear of not to attain, or fear not to suffice the > >>>expectations of others (or what you think their expectattions could > >>>be) ? > >>> > >>>Why this need for effort ? Are you haunted ? > >>> > >>>Werner > >> > >>Effort comes from the idea that time is important. There is a mentally > >>and emotionally surge arising in the human mechanism making it propel > >>forward. That force is the power of time. > > > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > Is it possible that the mental and emotional surge arising in the > > human mechanism making it propel forward could be conceived as other > > things, other than time? > > > > If we are too lazy then the > > > >>nervous feeling of time passing will be fed into our being, and if we > >>are working to feverishly, that feeling will turn into fatigue. It's > >>all an almost mechanical process making individual human beings work > >>their asses off, simply by the fact of an internal tormentor > >>constantly having a torch of fire blown into the ass of that person. > >> > >>/AL > > > > > > And seeing the consequence of this conception of experience, of the > > " arising surge, " what would be the consequences, conceptual or > > otherwise of conceiving that " arising surge " as it is differently? I > > have no final answer since I am unable to know what it is. In my case, > > it does not surge it simply moves as required, sometimes quiet on idle > > sometimes active and engaging, other times perplexed and hestitant and > > so on and it is a constant dynamic. This is just one way to put it. > > > > I have conceived the experience of this appearance in many ways as > > have others and it seems to lead to different perceptions with further > > experiences of its appearance and with different descriptions; arising > > surge, motivation, desire, want, expression, creativity, grasping, > > drive, internal tormentor, the will of God, the spirit of life, the > > devil in some cases, instinct, combinations of these and so on and on. > > > > Lewis > > And would these many differing perceptions and descriptions of what > appears to be an underlying indescribable appearance lead to different > experiences in the world and explanations of it? If one thinks of that > " indescribable " appearance as the movement of love in life towards union > with all things would that lead to different experiences and > understanding of the behavior of human appearances? If one thinks of > that same indefinable appearance as instinct what experience and > understanding of life emerges? Insert Freud's hydraulics and what do you > get? Take Lacan's view of the real and what is present? How about St. > John of the Cross's dark night of the soul? Or the anonymous Cloud of > Unknowing? Or the Buddhist view of emptiness? Or the Advaita Vedantist's > totality of Brahman/Atman. Each yields an experience, description, and > behavioral result concerning the same indefinable, indescribable > appearance. Below is a sample experience from the Cloud of Unknowing, if > you have not drunk it already. > > Lewis > > > The Cloud of Unknowing > A BOOK OF CONTEMPLATION THE WHICH IS CALLED THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING, IN > THE WHICH A SOUL IS ONED WITH GOD > > http://www.ccel.org/u/unknowing/cloud.htm > > HERE BEGINNETH THE THIRD CHAPTER > > LIFT up thine heart unto God with a meek stirring of love; and mean > Himself, and none of His goods. And thereto, look the loath to think on > aught but Himself. So that nought work in thy wit, nor in thy will, but > only Himself. And do that in thee is to forget all the creatures that > ever God made and the works of them; so that thy thought nor thy desire > be not directed nor stretched to any of them, neither in general nor in > special, but let them be, and take no heed to them. This is the work of > the soul that most pleaseth God. All saints and angels have joy of this > work, and hasten them to help it in all their might. All fiends be > furious when thou thus dost, and try for to defeat it in all that they > can. All men living in earth be wonderfully holpen of this work, thou > wottest not how. Yea, the souls in purgatory be eased of their pain by > virtue of this work. Thyself art cleansed and made virtuous by no work > so much. And yet it is the lightest work of all, when a soul is helped > with grace in sensible list, and soonest done. But else it is hard, and > wonderful to thee for to do. > > Let not, therefore, but travail therein till thou feel list. For > at the first time when thou dost it, thou findest but a darkness; and as > it were a cloud of unknowing, thou knowest not what, saving that thou > feelest in thy will a naked intent unto God. This darkness and this > cloud is, howsoever thou dost, betwixt thee and thy God, and letteth > thee that thou mayest neither see Him clearly by light of understanding > in thy reason, nor feel Him in sweetness of love in thine affection. > > And therefore shape thee to bide in this darkness as long as thou > mayest, evermore crying after Him that thou lovest. For if ever thou > shalt feel Him or see Him, as it may be here, it behoveth always to be > in this cloud in this darkness. And if thou wilt busily travail as I bid > thee, I trust in His mercy that thou shalt come thereto. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Ok Toomb, > > Someone puts a gun at your head and telling you that in 10 secs he > will pull the trigger and within this span you should tell him if you > are lost or not. Mind has as trouble dealing with its the problems it invents...even more trouble dealing with its hypothetical problems. > > What will be your answer ? I don't know. Will you philosophize or will your > survival instinct do the right thing ? All bodies are programmed to survive....so I would guess that I would try to survive. > > There is no need for an entity to give the right answer which further > on will give us here on this list the pleasure and honour to go on > reading and answering your posts. You have no choice to read or not read my posts. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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