Brahman – The absolute God of Hindus ? Confused?

[primate]

 

...

What do you expect beyond the usual superficial (& totally illogical) Karma excuse, with perhaps a scriptural quote or two thrown in for effect?

...

 

What’s illogical about karma? The theory of God/Vishnu/Krishna/etcetera, that I discussed in posts #185-187, is absolutely 100% logical, and I don’t see a conflict with the notion of karma (or reincarnation for that matter)..

[Guest Melvin1]

 

What’s illogical about karma? The theory of God/Vishnu/Krishna/etcetera, that I discussed in posts #185-187, is absolutely 100% logical, and I don’t see a conflict with the notion of karma (or reincarnation for that matter)..

 

Dear primate, there`s a deluge of new threads in this forum which I`m not familiar with. The Hare Krsna devotees are nowhere to be found to challenge the validity of these threads. Well, it`s fine. Hope they behave well and not intimidate the bhaktas `cause I`ll be watching you.

[primate]

So it was set forth in posts #176 & #185-187, that our individual (discontinuous) manifest world might be just one of an infinite number of possible phase-projections of a singular all pervading (continuous) consciousness. Moreover, I showed that such infinite systems actually exist in mathematical chaos theory. Oneness means that ultimately all infinite structure in our world is a function of a unitary and infinitely conscious oscillation, into which everything ultimately resolves.

 

Ignorance is explained as our individual consciousness being a mere fraction of this original consciousness. We are only conscious of reality during infinitely short moments at regular timed intervals or frequencies, which produces our seemingly continuous material world. In fact, the frequency of individual human consciousness may be like the sound Om, but that’s pure speculation.

 

Karma is the perfect equilibrium of the overall system. Our consciousness is just awakening. As a result of our ignorance we are not aware that everything is interrelated and perfectly balanced. But again, the mathematical metaphor of chaos indicates that this must necessarily be true..

 

 

"There must exist, beyond mere appearances (...) a 'veiled reality' that science does not describe but only glimpses uncertainly. In turn, contrary to those who claim that matter is the only reality, the possibility that other means, including spirituality, may also provide a window on ultimate reality cannot be ruled out, even by cogent scientific arguments." (Philosopher Bernard d'Espagnat, winner of the 2009 Templeton Prize)

 

[primate]

BTW, Melvin1, I guess you’re okay..

[Guest Melvin1]

 

BTW, Melvin1, I guess you’re okay..

 

Thank you so much, primate, for caring.

I have a CD here at home about quantum physics. These quantum theories only confirm what the sages has been telling us since time immemorial about the Absolute Truth Krsna. That with God, anything is possible.

 

P.S. If you have any message for me( m.drmelvin@) I`ll always be glad to reply if I have the time to do so. It`s 2:15 in the morning( Easter Sunday) and I have to sleep and wake up early. My family & I are going to a sandy white beach for a swim.

[primate]

Have a nice day.

[Guest Melvin1]

Thanks! We had such a wonderful time.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

My family & I are going to a sandy white beach for a swim.

Are you talking about the White Beach on Mindoro Island, taking the ferry from Batangas and arriving at Puerto Galera?

I was there about four years ago.

For the Philippines it is a very nice Beach.

 

Even though a lot of Filipinos are trying to get out of the Philippines, I happen to love the Phils.

[primate]

 

...

I have a CD here at home about quantum physics. These quantum theories only confirm what the sages has been telling us since time immemorial about the Absolute Truth Krsna. That with God, anything is possible.

...

 

In quantum mechanics, the evolution of quantum systems is described by Schrödinger wave equations. As such, a quantum system is formalized as a superposition of all its possible states in terms of probability amplitudes, which basically can be conceived of as ordinary probabilities. When a 'quantum measurement' is made, the wave function 'collapses' and a specific quantum state actualizes in reality.

 

The most popular interpretation of quantum mechanics is the Quantum Multiverse or the Many-Worlds Hypothesis. It asserts that zillions of parallel universes are being created every instant, through acts of quantum measurement. The universe or reality 'splits in two' every time a measurement is made. Since consciousness and reality continuously exist, quantum measurements apparently happen all the time, and there must be a googolplex of parallel universes.

 

However, without a more detailed proposal as to what the process of quantum wave function collapse actually is, and what sort of experimental predictions it can make, the whole idea is just metaphysics. All quantum measurement proposals are lacking in that none provide any sort of detailed description of the actual mechanics of wave function collapse. They attempt to resolve the meta-physical paradoxes without proposing the physics.

 

Chaos Theory is not a complete model of reality either, as it doesn’t explain consciousness. But it does show us how a whole lot of unpredictable things can happen in a very short amount of time, whereas a chaotic system is completely deterministic (non-probabilistic). And I believe that chaos theory indicates a very fundamental aspect of the nature of the actual physical mechanism that underlies quantum mechanics and human consciousness..

[Guest Melvin1]

 

Are you talking about the White Beach on Mindoro Island, taking the ferry from Batangas and arriving at Puerto Galera?

I was there about four years ago.

For the Philippines it is a very nice Beach.

 

Even though a lot of Filipinos are trying to get out of the Philippines, I happen to love the Phils.

 

The sandy white beach I`m talking of is only 90 kilometers away from our home. We have lots of sandy white beaches here in Cebu. Philippines is an archipelago comprising of 7,200 islands. And Mindoro where Puerta Galera is located is just one of them.

Filipinos go abroad because they want to earn more. A US dollar is equivalent to 50 pesos here. A gov`t doctor like me only earns approximately 500 US dollars a month. A filipina nurse who works in the US earns approximately 3500 US dollars. It takes me almost a year of work to approximate the earning of a Filipina nurse working only a month in the US.

[Guest Melvin1]

 

In quantum mechanics, the evolution of quantum systems is described by Schrödinger wave equations. As such, a quantum system is formalized as a superposition of all its possible states in terms of probability amplitudes, which basically can be conceived of as ordinary probabilities. When a 'quantum measurement' is made, the wave function 'collapses' and a specific quantum state actualizes in reality.

 

The most popular interpretation of quantum mechanics is the Quantum Multiverse or the Many-Worlds Hypothesis. It asserts that zillions of parallel universes are being created every instant, through acts of quantum measurement. The universe or reality 'splits in two' every time a measurement is made. Since consciousness and reality continuously exist, quantum measurements apparently happen all the time, and there must be a googolplex of parallel universes.

 

However, without a more detailed proposal as to what the process of quantum wave function collapse actually is, and what sort of experimental predictions it can make, the whole idea is just metaphysics. All quantum measurement proposals are lacking in that none provide any sort of detailed description of the actual mechanics of wave function collapse. They attempt to resolve the meta-physical paradoxes without proposing the physics.

 

Chaos Theory is not a complete model of reality either, as it doesn’t explain consciousness. But it does show us how a whole lot of unpredictable things can happen in a very short amount of time, whereas a chaotic system is completely deterministic (non-probabilistic). And I believe that chaos theory indicates a very fundamental aspect of the nature of the actual physical mechanism that underlies quantum mechanics and human consciousness..

 

Is Chaos theory similar to the Big Bang theory?

[primate]

 

Is Chaos theory similar to the Big Bang theory?

No. Just as Chaos Theory isn’t similar to (microscopic) Quantum Mechanics, but includes Quantum Mechanics, it also isn’t similar to Big Bang theory, but includes a (macroscopic) classical mechanical view of reality. In other words, Big Bang Theory (and General Relativity for that matter) is compatible with a Chaos Theory of reality. In this sense, Chaos Theory provides a unification of physics.

 

Actually Chaos Theory doesn’t need a big bang to explain the observed expanding universe. A chaotic oscillation would describe an eternally expanding and contracting (oscillating) universe. The only question of origin is: Where does 'conscious chaos' come from?

[Guest Melvin1]

 

No. Just as Chaos Theory isn’t similar to (microscopic) Quantum Mechanics, but includes Quantum Mechanics, it also isn’t similar to Big Bang theory, but includes a (macroscopic) classical mechanical view of reality. In other words, Big Bang Theory (and General Relativity for that matter) is compatible with a Chaos Theory of reality. In this sense, Chaos Theory provides a unification of physics.

 

Actually Chaos Theory doesn’t need a big bang to explain the observed expanding universe. A chaotic oscillation would describe an eternally expanding and contracting (oscillating) universe. The only question of origin is: Where does 'conscious chaos' come from?

 

All Vedic literatures confirm that Krsna is the center of all energies and variegatedness. Unable to understand the transcendental activities of Krsna, mayavada philosophers like Sankaracarya consider Krsna to be a product of material nature. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita(9.11): " Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They don`t know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." This is the greatest offense any human being can commit. Other materialistic philisophers like Gautama (atomic theory), Astavakra ( established the the impersonal effulgence brahmajyoti as Supreme) and Patanjali ( conceived an imaginary form of God) have abandoned the real meaning of the Vedas(devotional service) and have tried to establish Krsna the Absolute Truth as subject to the material world.

In summary, it should be understood that all these materialistic philosophies (chaos theory, big bang, etc) concocted by materialistic scientists and philosphers have tried to avoid Krsna by putting forward their own mentally brewed philosophies. However, the great sage and incarnation of Krsna, has thouroughly studied this philosophical speculations and in answer has compiled the Vedanta-sutra, which establishes the relationship between the living entity and God Krsna. In Srimad Bhagavatam, Vyasadeva establishes from the beginning( janmady asya yatah) that the supreme source of everything is a cognizant, (not conscious chaotic) transcendental person.

[primate]

 

... In Srimad Bhagavatam, Vyasadeva establishes from the beginning( janmady asya yatah) that the supreme source of everything is a cognizant, (not conscious chaotic) transcendental person.

Yes, but what is 'cognizant'? Cognizant of what? The term cognizant means: having knowledge or understanding or realization or perception or awareness. This seems to only just transcend our ordinary notion of consciousness, which doesn’t need to be knowledgeable per se.

 

Again, a cognizant person needs an object to be cognizant (or conscious) of. I proposed that this object is a chaotically oscillating atomic singularity or point in space, which must be the simplest possible model of all infinite complexity that we consciously observe in reality, including quantum physical phenomena. When this person is cognizant of all continuous states of the (original) point or system or atomic particle in space, it would also be aware of all the infinite inherent fractal structure present within all possible discontinuous phase-projections of the system, including our own individual human consciousness. For all practical purposes, He might be the system. And we might be His awareness of us.

 

Finally, Vyasadeva couldn’t have known about the existence of chaos. It was only after the invention of the first (super) computers, that scientists learned about the surprising infinite order within extremely simple physical systems through computational simulations of such systems. And even if Vyasadeva new about chaos, it would have been pointless to use the metaphor in Srimad Bhagavatam, because at the time no one else would be able to understand it.

[ranjeetmore]

 

Yes, but what is 'cognizant'? Cognizant of what? The term cognizant means: having knowledge or understanding or realization or perception or awareness. This seems to only just transcend our ordinary notion of consciousness, which doesn’t need to be knowledgeable per se.

 

Again, a cognizant person needs an object to be cognizant (or conscious) of. I proposed that this object is a chaotically oscillating atomic singularity or point in space, which must be the simplest possible model of all infinite complexity that we consciously observe in reality, including quantum physical phenomena. When this person is cognizant of all continuous states of the (original) point or system or atomic particle in space, it would also be aware of all the infinite inherent fractal structure present within all possible discontinuous phase-projections of the system, including our own individual human consciousness. For all practical purposes, He might be the system. And we might be His awareness of us.

 

Finally, Vyasadeva couldn’t have known about the existence of chaos. It was only after the invention of the first (super) computers, that scientists learned about the surprising infinite order within extremely simple physical systems through computational simulations of such systems. And even if Vyasadeva new about chaos, it would have been pointless to use the metaphor in Srimad Bhagavatam, because at the time no one else would be able to understand it.

 

 

Conscious 'of' an object ???

 

No.No.No.

I very well deal with my mom everyday.I am 'conscious' of her.

Consciousness is alive and matter is dead.That's all.There is no objective for consiousness to exist.

In fact it is the dead matter that depends on conscious living entities to control,mould,etc it.There two classes of these : God and Jeevatma.Sri Bhagavan is the reservoir in which the prakriti enters.

You knw wat is one of the biggest obstacles ?

To get the fact,that 5000 years ago there existed sages(read Veda Vyasa) who very well were capable of defeating the latest scientists all put to gether,across to the people.Vedavyasa knew the past,present and future and also the happenings within atoms as well as on the macroscopic scale.

 

Vedanta deals with the attainment of brahm.Atoms,chaos theory,etc are all 'maya'.Vedanta deals with brahm.

 

There is absolutely no need to expound on the quantum physics in vedanta sastra,let alone vedas,in detail.

 

 

****

 

Anyways,i would like to point out that the chaos theories is endorsed by the vedas.

 

The vedas state that the material universes are never 'created' created.Since the Jeevatmas,MAya and obviously Sri Bhagavan are eternal,it is accepted that the universe simply retracts back,while the sum total of the jeevas enjoy sushupti,divine sleep in the womb of the Primeval Person.When He wills,the universes are simply projected back.There is,however one secret revealed by the vedas.During such a 'creation',the karmas of the infinite jeevas which were pending during the last creation,are maintained and then the jeevas are forced to take up bodies according to this sanchit karma.

 

This is the reason why a certain entity is born as Indra and another is born as a demon a few years later.It appears that both Indra and the demon,the living entities had no time to perform karma,but this is not so.

[primate]

 

Conscious 'of' an object ??? ...

I mean, the object may be the subject: consciousness itself..

[Guest Melvin1]

 

Yes, but what is 'cognizant'? Cognizant of what? The term cognizant means: having knowledge or understanding or realization or perception or awareness. This seems to only just transcend our ordinary notion of consciousness, which doesn’t need to be knowledgeable per se.

 

Which came first, the chicken or egg ( conscious chaos or cognizance)?

 

Again, a cognizant person needs an object to be cognizant (or conscious) of. I proposed that this object is a chaotically oscillating atomic singularity or point in space, which must be the simplest possible model of all infinite complexity that we consciously observe in reality, including quantum physical phenomena. When this person is cognizant of all continuous states of the (original) point or system or atomic particle in space, it would also be aware of all the infinite inherent fractal structure present within all possible discontinuous phase-projections of the system, including our own individual human consciousness. For all practical purposes, He might be the system. And we might be His awareness of us.

 

The object(chaos) is the egg. Cognizance is the chicken.

 

Finally, Vyasadeva couldn’t have known about the existence of chaos. It was only after the invention of the first (super) computers, that scientists learned about the surprising infinite order within extremely simple physical systems through computational simulations of such systems. And even if Vyasadeva new about chaos, it would have been pointless to use the metaphor in Srimad Bhagavatam, because at the time no one else would be able to understand it.

 

Supercomputers would have not existed if there were no minds and brains. Scientists got the idea how to build supercomputers by knowing how their brains and minds worked. In Vyasadeva`s time there were no internets. He only used his supermind and brain to email a friend, Narada.

 

 

[primate]

The working of computers is very different from the working of our brain. In fact, science doesn't have a clue about how the brain works. This is an unsolved mystery in science. But of course it is possible that Vyasadeva envisioned chaos in his mind..

 

 

The object(chaos) is the egg. Cognizance is the chicken.

That would be an important conclusion! Do you mean that in this chaos methaphor, you see (impersonal) Brahman as the all pervading dynamic mechanism of (conscious) chaos, and Vishnu/Krishna as the emergent cognizant personality, of whom in turn our individual human consciousness originates?

 

This would also be my conclusion/interpretation. And I think it agrees with Vedic literature..

[Guest Melvin1]

 

The working of computers is very different from the working of our brain. In fact, science doesn't have a clue about how the brain works. This is an unsolved mystery in science. But of course it is possible that Vyasadeva envisioned chaos in his mind..

 

 

That would be an important conclusion! Do you mean that in this chaos methaphor, you see (impersonal) Brahman as the all pervading dynamic mechanism of (conscious) chaos, and Vishnu/Krishna as the emergent cognizant personality, of whom in turn our individual human consciousness originates?

 

This would also be my conclusion/interpretation. And I think it agrees with Vedic literature..

 

Krsna is the cognizant ( rooster) supreme transcendental person and around him are eggs (universes) which when hatched bring forth expansions of Krsna and identical sets of eggs( expanding universes). This can be better explained if we use as an example the Mandelbrot set. Imagine Krsna is the set`s orignal centerpiece( cognizant rooster) and the dots are the eggs(chaos). If you look at each of these sets microscopically each set contains an expansion of Krsna( cognizant rooster) and dots(chaos/expanding universe). so on so forth.

In short, when the an egg(universe) is hatched( big bang) comes forth a chick(an expansion of Krsna) and a (an expanding universe) broken shell.

[Guest Melvin1]

Imagine the gigantic virat-rupa of a Krsna expansion in the form of a fishing net and each knot on the net are solar or planetary systems( expanding universe). If you take a microscopic view on one of these knots, you will see again an expansion of Krsna also in the form of a net and each knot so on so forth.

[primate]

I guess you can imagine reality like the Mandelbrot-set. But the Mandelbrot-set is not produced by a real physical system. I referred to it only to illustrate the concept of infinite fractal structure (i.e., structure with a broken - or fractional dimension).

 

The simplest physical system imaginable is a single point in space. When we assume that this point continuously describes a (nonlinear) trajectory in a limited volume of space, and that its eternal trajectory never exactly repeats itself, then we talk about a chaotic oscillation.

 

I argued that such a chaotic system is all that needs to exist in order to describe our entire physical reality; including the most fundamental (quantum) level, as well as the largest scales of planets and galaxies.

 

Now, the question is: Can a chaotic oscillation also explain God and individual human consciousness, as portrayed in Vedic scriptures?

 

A possible argument in favour of such an assertion goes as follows:

 

According to scripture, all is one (Brahman). And an oscillating point in empty space is also one (after all, the point is all that actually exists). So in our model, this singular point must be the Brahman from which everything originates.

 

How can this be? Well, imagine that the point or atomic entity, is infinitely conscious or cognizant. All there is for it to be cognizant of, however, is its own eternal chaotic trajectory in space. And although a (continuous) chaotic oscillation in space will appear to behave completely unpredictable or random, the nature of chaos is such, that a (discontinues) projection of a chaotic oscillation will reveal its hidden infinite structure.

 

My idea is that Brahman is infinitely conscious (or cognizant) of all possible phase projections of its own chaotic trajectory in space. We are a projection of Brahman, and we are his awareness of us. Human consciousness is an incomplete (fractional, discontinuous, ignorant) projection of Brahman’s cognizance. Krishna is the complete projection of Brahman; the supreme form and personality of Brahman; indeed, like the overall form in the Mandelbrot-set. Humans can only be a fraction of Krishna, within Brahman.

 

The physics involved can all be confirmed in computer simulations. However, the religious idea of a cognizant chaotic oscillation being the origin of all individual consciousness is, of course, purely speculative..

 

So, what do you think?

[Guest Melvin1]

 

I guess you can imagine reality like the Mandelbrot-set. But the Mandelbrot-set is not produced by a real physical system. I referred to it only to illustrate the concept of infinite fractal structure (i.e., structure with a broken - or fractional dimension).

 

The simplest physical system imaginable is a single point in space. When we assume that this point continuously describes a (nonlinear) trajectory in a limited volume of space, and that its eternal trajectory never exactly repeats itself, then we talk about a chaotic oscillation.

 

I argued that such a chaotic system is all that needs to exist in order to describe our entire physical reality; including the most fundamental (quantum) level, as well as the largest scales of planets and galaxies.

 

Now, the question is: Can a chaotic oscillation also explain God and individual human consciousness, as portrayed in Vedic scriptures?

 

A possible argument in favour of such an assertion goes as follows:

 

According to scripture, all is one (Brahman). And an oscillating point in empty space is also one (after all, the point is all that actually exists). So in our model, this singular point must be the Brahman from which everything originates.

 

How can this be? Well, imagine that the point or atomic entity, is infinitely conscious or cognizant. All there is for it to be cognizant of, however, is its own eternal chaotic trajectory in space. And although a (continuous) chaotic oscillation in space will appear to behave completely unpredictable or random, the nature of chaos is such, that a (discontinues) projection of a chaotic oscillation will reveal its hidden infinite structure.

 

My idea is that Brahman is infinitely conscious (or cognizant) of all possible phase projections of its own chaotic trajectory in space. We are a projection of Brahman, and we are his awareness of us. Human consciousness is an incomplete (fractional, discontinuous, ignorant) projection of Brahman’s cognizance. Krishna is the complete projection of Brahman; the supreme form and personality of Brahman; indeed, like the overall form in the Mandelbrot-set. Humans can only be a fraction of Krishna, within Brahman.

 

The physics involved can all be confirmed in computer simulations. However, the religious idea of a cognizant chaotic oscillation being the origin of all individual consciousness is, of course, purely speculative..

 

So, what do you think?

 

Krsna therefore is the cognizant orderly oscillation( if a cognizant chaotic oscillation doesn`t exist ) as the origin of all individual consciousness.

[primate]

 

Krsna therefore is the cognizant orderly oscillation( if a cognizant chaotic oscillation doesn`t exist ) as the origin of all individual consciousness.

Yes, just don't overlook the fact that chaos is infinite order..

[sant]

Krisna is beyond knowledge as said in gita so we cannot know him by speculation as said by acharyas

[primate]

There’s no point in stretching this chaos metaphor much further. I can envision chaos in my mind, and it is without question the most powerful complete theory of physical reality imaginable. But a true theory of everything, necessarily includes human consciousness and spirituality. Looking for consciousness in a chaotic oscillation, is of course a purely theoretical exercise. Luckily, chaos makes it very easy for us. There is just one candidate: the infinite singular chaotic oscillation itself.

 

It makes a lot of sense. All individual or personal consciousness originates from the impersonal Brahman. And chaos theory indicates that it’s more than likely that a hierarchy of conscious persons and more supreme conscious persons exists, possibly with Krishna at the top. Thus, in a chaos theoretical perspective, Brahman must be the Absolute Origin of all consciousness, and Krishna must be its Supreme Personality. I guess it’s only a matter of taste and religious tradition which you would prefer to call God..