Brahman – The absolute God of Hindus ? Confused?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

“O Arjuna, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities" (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 7.26)

 

“Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot!"(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 4.5)

 

[Sonic Yogi]

“Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way. I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize my true transcendental nature fall down”(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 9.24)

[Sonic Yogi]

“Krishna who is known as Govinda is the supreme godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and he is the prime cause of all causes.” (Brahma Samhita 5.1)

[Sonic Yogi]

“All of the above mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions of portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Krishna is the original Personality of Godhead” (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.28)

[primate]

I agree. Krishna = Brahman..

[ranjeetmore]

You seem to not understand this properly,or your trying to take it in the wrong way.

 

DVE vava brahmano rupe murtancaiva amurtanca- Brhadaranyakopanishad.

 

DVE.There are TWO forms.BOTH the forms are ETERNAL.

The nirguna brahm as well as Sri Bhagavan exist since eternal time.

Whether you choose to accept that nirguna BRahm is the effulgence of Sri Krsna or not,DOES NOT MATTER,(because,certainly this is giving you a tough time),

 

AS LONG AS you do not say that "Sri Krsna originated from nirguna brahm",

 

You cannot say this because,the vedas do not support this.It is very important to Accept Sri Krsna as the same Nirguna brahm of the jnanis.

 

This altogether eliminates any possibility of the Jeeva being nirguna Brahm.This also is in accordance with the statements of vedanta.The vedanta clearly describe that the Jeevatma is atomic in size(anu) and EVEN AFTER LIBERATION,jeeva REMAINS ATOMIC.This is clearly stated in the vedanta.

Brahm,Nirguna or Saguna,is verily different from Jeevatma.

 

 

You have Sri KRsna and then you have nirguna brahm,which is undeniably non-different from Sri Bhagavan(Just as paramatma is indifferent from Bhagavan.)

 

You have Jeevatma,who is atomic,and who maintains its atomic size,no matter what(you cannot change the swarupa of eternal tattva.)

 

You have maya,who is jada.

 

Now you have only three tattvas.This is the eternal situation.Jeeva can never become Brahm.Maya can never become brahm.I see no point stretching this further.

[primate]

I agree, atomic Jeeva cannot become Brahm.

 

But can you really prove your following claims?

 

 

...

You have Sri KRsna and then you have nirguna brahm,which is undeniably non-different from Sri Bhagavan(Just as paramatma is indifferent from Bhagavan.)

 

You have Jeevatma,who is atomic,and who maintains its atomic size,no matter what(you cannot change the swarupa of eternal tattva.)

 

You have maya,who is jada.

...

 

[primate]

So it is established that the Supreme Person (Krishna) is not the basis of the logical Absolute Origin (Nirguna-Brahman). He may be the fundamental Nature of the Absolute Origin and the primary intelligent principle of the entire cosmos and the essential cause of everything, including human consciousness, He may be Para-Brahman and He may even be the Absolute Origin itself; but nothing can be more basic then Absolute Origin.

 

Now the question seems to be: what is God? The Absolute Origin or the Supreme Person? I guess, for most practical purposes, it’s only a matter of taste. Not absolutely necessary to understand..

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I agree, atomic Jeeva cannot become Brahm.

 

But can you really prove your following claims?

 

Maybe you should read this.

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 4.24

 

brahmārpaṇaḿ brahma havir

brahmāgnau brahmaṇā hutam

brahmaiva tena gantavyaḿ

brahma-karma-samādhinā

 

SYNONYMS

 

brahma — spiritual in nature; arpaṇam — contribution; brahma — the Supreme; haviḥ — butter; brahma — spiritual; agnau — in the fire of consummation; brahmaṇā — by the spirit soul; hutam — offered; brahma — spiritual kingdom; eva — certainly; tena — by him; gantavyam — to be reached; brahma — spiritual; karma — in activities; samādhinā — by complete absorption.

 

TRANSLATION

 

A person who is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is sure to attain the spiritual kingdom because of his full contribution to spiritual activities, in which the consummation is absolute and that which is offered is of the same spiritual nature.

 

PURPORT

 

How activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness can lead one ultimately to the spiritual goal is described here. There are various activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and all of them will be described in the following verses. But, for the present, just the principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is described. A conditioned soul, entangled in material contamination, is sure to act in the material atmosphere, and yet he has to get out of such an environment. The process by which the conditioned soul can get out of the material atmosphere is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For example, a patient who is suffering from a disorder of the bowels due to overindulgence in milk products is cured by another milk product, namely curds. The materially absorbed conditioned soul can be cured by Kṛṣṇa consciousness as set forth here in the Gītā. This process is generally known as yajña, or activities (sacrifices) simply meant for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu, or Kṛṣṇa. The more the activities of the material world are performed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or for Viṣṇu only, the more the atmosphere becomes spiritualized by complete absorption. The word brahma (Brahman) means "spiritual." The Lord is spiritual, and the rays of His transcendental body are called brahmajyoti, His spiritual effulgence. Everything that exists is situated in that brahmajyoti, but when the jyoti is covered by illusion (māyā) or sense gratification, it is called material. This material veil can be removed at once by Kṛṣṇa consciousness; thus the offering for the sake of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the consuming agent of such an offering or contribution, the process of consumption, the contributor, and the result are — all combined together — Brahman, or the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth covered by māyā is called matter. Matter dovetailed for the cause of the Absolute Truth regains its spiritual quality. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the process of converting the illusory consciousness into Brahman, or the Supreme. When the mind is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is said to be in samādhi, or trance. Anything done in such transcendental consciousness is called yajña, or sacrifice for the Absolute. In that condition of spiritual consciousness, the contributor, the contribution, the consumption, the performer or leader of the performance, and the result or ultimate gain — everything — becomes one in the Absolute, the Supreme Brahman. That is the method of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

[primate]

Yes, I agree..

[sant]

the jeev can become one with the brahman

scriptures do agree with it.

so you become a part of that collective consciosness after moksh as baba avdhoot shivananad says

so you can become god

or we cant?

[primate]

You are already one with God/Brahman/Vishnu/Krishna/etc. However, your human consciousness tends to ignore this fact. Whether this means that you can become God, depends on your point of view. Personally I think that our individuality or personal consciousness will ultimately prevent us from completely merging into Brahman or the Absolute Origin. Also, without His effulgence of more or less ignorant individual souls, I don’t think Brahman will exist any longer as God..

[Sonic Yogi]

 

the jeev can become one with the brahman

scriptures do agree with it.

so you become a part of that collective consciosness after moksh as baba avdhoot shivananad says

so you can become god

or we cant?

The concept of becoming god is very crazy.

Because, god is the sum total of all living beings.

To become God would mean that you in effect become everything and everyone.

How can any reasonable, rational person possibly imagine that he can in fact become everything and everyone and know the hearts and minds of all living beings as God does?

 

The Gaudiya acharyas explain that the jiva is qualitatively ONE with god, but that in quantity the jiva is just a very finite particle of God.

 

So, the jiva is spirit as God is spirit, but God is the supreme spirit from whom all the other spirit souls come from.

 

So, no, the jiva can never become God.

The jiva can merge into the existence of God as a partial aspect of the infinite God, but the jiva can never fully become the Absolute Whole Brahman whom we know as God, Vishnu or Krishna in Vedic shastra.

 

The Paramatmavadi yogis are aiming at merging back into the existence of God and in one sense they "become God" but they only become a small portion of the infinite, they do not become the Absolute Whole.

 

Becoming God is not the highest possible attainment for the soul.

Above "becoming God" the jiva can actually control God through pure devotion.

So, the jiva cannot become God wholly, but the jiva can control God through pure love and devotion, therefore the bhaktas are above the Paramatmavadi yogis who are merging into Paramatma and identifying themselves with God, though in fact they are not wholly God.

 

There is something to the old Hindu idea of "becoming God" but it is mostly misunderstood because of imperfect understanding of how the jiva can merge into the existence of the Paramatma.

However, the Paramatma is only a partial representation of the Supreme Absolute and therefore merging into Paramatma is not tantamount to becoming God in absolute values.

[sant]

primate if i was merged in god then why would i be here

[sant]

god is sum total of all living beings?

I thought gaudiya vaishnavs did not believe that.

IF THAT IS TRUE THEN WOULDNT GOD BECOME LESS IF JIVAS ARE SEPERATED FROM HIM

[sant]

Whole Point Of Saying Shivohum When We Are Not Or Cannot Become God?

[primate]

 

primate if i was merged in god then why would i be here

 

 

Tripura Rahasya Chapter 20 (Vidya gita)

 

54. "Worship of Abstract Intelligence in a concrete form is not only useful but essential for non-dual realisation. For how can one be made fit for it, without Her benediction.

 

55. "Non-dual realisation is the same as pure Intelligence absolutely void of objective knowledge. Such realisation nullifies all objective knowledge revealing it in all its nakedness to be as harmless as a picture of a pouncing tiger or of an enraged serpent.

 

56. "When the mind has completely resolved into the Self, that state is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi (the undifferentiated peaceful state). After waking up from it, the person is overpowered by the memory of his experience as the one, undivided, infinite, pure Self and he knows 'I am That' as opposed to the puerile I-thought of the ignorant. That is Supreme Knowledge (Vijnana or Pratyabhijna jnana).

 

Note. - The advanced state of meditation is Savikalpa Samadhi, where the person is aware that he has turned away from objectivity towards subjectivity and feels his proximity to the state of Self-Realisation. When he actually sinks within the Self, there is no knowledge apart from the simple awareness of blissful existence. This is Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Waking up, he sees the world just as any other man does but his outlook has become different. He is now able to know his pure Self and no longer confounds himself with the ego. That is the acme of Realisation.

 

http://www.astrojyoti.com/vidyagita.htm

 

 

I don't know 'why' you would be 'here'..

[sant]

??????

what do you mean?

[primate]

I interpreted your question in post #164 (if i was merged in god then why would i be here) as: if I am one with God then why am I here? To this I don't know the answer. But perhaps I don’t understand your question..

[sant]

i meant that if i was merged with god, my soul was merged with the supersoul

then i wouldnt be here on this earth.

as you have said that you are one with god/krishna/vishnu

[primate]

You are not 'here'. 'Here vs there' is a false distinction. The fact that you think you are here is your ignorance. The question should be: Why am I ignorant?

[sant]

i ask you

merging into god and being one with god

are they same

[primate]

I don't know

 

Merging into God implies individuality or difference from God. But this must be ignorance..

[sant]

oh ya i get what you say

you mean to say that if there is difference that is ignorance

everything is brahman/god

[Sonic Yogi]

 

god is sum total of all living beings?

I thought gaudiya vaishnavs did not believe that.

IF THAT IS TRUE THEN WOULDNT GOD BECOME LESS IF JIVAS ARE SEPERATED FROM HIM

No.

Here is a verse in Sri Isopanisad that explains how and who he would not become less by generating unlimited living entities.

 

 

Śrī Īśopaniṣad Invocation

 

oḿ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaḿ

pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya

pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate

 

SYNONYMS

 

oḿ — the Complete Whole; pūrṇam — perfectly complete; adaḥ — that; pūrṇam — perfectly complete; idam — this phenomenal world; pūrṇāt — from the all-perfect; pūrṇam — complete unit; udacyate — is produced; pūrṇasya — of the Complete Whole; pūrṇam — completely, all; ādāya — having been taken away; pūrṇam — the complete balance; eva — even; avaśiṣyate — is remaining.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.

 

PURPORT

 

The Complete Whole, or the Supreme Absolute Truth, is the complete Personality of Godhead. Realization of impersonal Brahman or of Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is incomplete realization of the Absolute Complete. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1]. Realization of impersonal Brahman is realization of His sat feature, or His aspect of eternity, and Paramātmā realization is realization of His sat and cit features, His aspects of eternity and knowledge. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features — sat, cit and ānanda, bliss. When one realizes the Supreme Person, he realizes these aspects of the Absolute Truth in their completeness. Vigraha means "form." Thus the Complete Whole is not formless. If He were formless, or if He were less than His creation in any other way, He could not be complete. The Complete Whole must contain everything both within and beyond our experience; otherwise He cannot be complete.

 

The Complete Whole, the Personality of Godhead, has immense potencies, all of which are as complete as He is. Thus this phenomenal world is also complete in itself. The twenty-four elements of which this material universe is a temporary manifestation are arranged to produce everything necessary for the maintenance and subsistence of this universe. No other unit in the universe need make an extraneous effort to try to maintain the universe. The universe functions on its own time scale, which is fixed by the energy of the Complete Whole, and when that schedule is completed, this temporary manifestation will be annihilated by the complete arrangement of the Complete Whole.

 

All facilities are given to the small complete units (namely the living beings) to enable them to realize the Complete Whole. All forms of incompleteness are experienced due to incomplete knowledge of the Complete Whole. The human form of life is a complete manifestation of the consciousness of the living being, and it is obtained after evolving through 8,400,000 species of life in the cycle of birth and death. If in this human life of full consciousness the living entity does not realize his completeness in relation to the Complete Whole, he loses the chance to realize his completeness and is again put into the evolutionary cycle by the law of material nature.

 

Because we do not know that there is a complete arrangement in nature for our maintenance, we make efforts to utilize the resources of nature to create a so-called complete life of sense enjoyment. Because the living entity cannot enjoy the life of the senses without being dovetailed with the Complete Whole, the misleading life of sense enjoyment is illusion. The hand of a body is a complete unit only as long as it is attached to the complete body. When the hand is severed from the body, it may appear like a hand, but it actually has none of the potencies of a hand. Similarly, living beings are part and parcel of the Complete Whole, and if they are severed from the Complete Whole, the illusory representation of completeness cannot fully satisfy them.

 

The completeness of human life can be realized only when one engages in the service of the Complete Whole. All services in this world — whether social, political, communal, international or even interplanetary — will remain incomplete until they are dovetailed with the Complete Whole. When everything is dovetailed with the Complete Whole, the attached parts and parcels also become complete in themselves.