death of Jesus, love, etc.

[theist]

 

I am sorry if this causes you to feel insulted. Perhaps your gunas are out of balance?

 

Don't you mean doshas? Anyway please address verse 11 directly including it's implications.

[bhaktajan]

BTW, Theist is correct in his presentation --it is not a new nor original concept.

 

All cosmic affairs are preformed by plenary portions of the whole.

 

Theist is fully read on these topics** and it should be a challenge for any one to speak contrary to him without doing their home work.

 

Remember most of us are awake only 16 hours per day and most of that is pre-occupied with just a short burst of concentrated effort per day--it takes years of study in any field to get it all sorted out.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The tendency to offer advise when one is actually not thoroughly informed is commonplace --yet such a tendency is dishonest and is an act of propagating data that is 'for all intents and purposes' not verified to the best of ones judgement --such acts accrues undesirable karmic re-action [it is similar to paying 'false witness'].

 

The best way for chaos to flourish is for good men to invent any old thing in lieu of authentic scholarship.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The only thing to avoid is digressions of any sort--"keep on task" while discussing/requesting investigative scholarship work.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

doshas? Don't you mean Besan dohkla?

Oh, doshas. You mean like prana and kudalini & potatos?

[gHari]

The way I see it: if Jesus did not accept his crucifixion his message would not have lasted two thousand years. He could have just renounced his calling, and saved his own life. His fame would have died with him at old age. Instead he accepted the ultimate sacrifice so that all who lived after him would know of the Kingdom of God, the message he was sent to offer us, to lift our burden, to set us free.

 

So, yes, he died to save the world. There is no need for fanaticism. Who among us loves everyone so much that they would die for their truth? I'm afraid I would shut up and walk away and live my truth alone ..... ooops, that's what I do.

[chandu_69]

 

Truth can be found in all religions. The Catholic Church believes that 'salvation' (choose your own interpretation of this) CAN be found outside of its doors.

 

.

 

Hi there.Your statement about salvation caught my eye and couldnot resist jumping in .Is this statement backed up by christian theologists?.The official position of christian clergy appears to be exactly opposite to what you stated on this subject.

 

take a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_Nulla_Salus

 

Quote"

The Latin phrase Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "Outside the Church there is no salvation". This expression comes from the writings of Saint Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop of the third century. The axiom is often used as short-hand for the doctrine, upheld by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, that the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation

"unquote

 

here is a christian website that says

"

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:

 

• “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
  
• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
  
• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her"
  

http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

[bija]

haven't you heard of vatican two council....? times have changed.

 

 

In the second chapter, titled "On the People of God", the Council teaches that God wills to save people not just as individuals but as a people. For this reason God chose the Israelite people to be his own people and established a covenant with it, as a preparation and figure of the covenant ratified in Christ that constitutes the new People of God, which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit and which is called the Church of Christ (Lumen Gentium, 9). All human beings are called to belong to the Church. Not all are fully incorporated into the Church, but "the Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christ, but who do not however profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter" (Lumen Gentium, 15) and even with "those who have not yet received the Gospel," among whom Jews and Muslims are explicitly mentioned (Lumen Gentium, 16). The idea of any opening toward Protestantism caused a major controversy among traditionalist Catholic groups. wikipedia

[theist]

From 1 John 2

 

 

22Who is the liar? It isthe man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

 

23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

Clearly the impersonalist is anti-Christ because Christ consciousness means the eternal loving relationship between Father and Son. To say they are non-different negates any possiblity of relationship.

[chandu_69]

 

haven't you heard of vatican two council....? times have changed.

 

Yes, i know; but the position is still the same(almost).Times have not changed that much .

[chandu_69]

 

From 1 John 2

 

 

 

Clearly the impersonalist is anti-Christ because Christ consciousness means the eternal loving relationship between Father and Son. To say they are non-different negates any possiblity of relationship.

 

It is clearly a complex subject; the relation between father and his only begotten son.Whether the father and son are one and the same or different entities etc.

 

In my opinion it is more fruitful to talk about the message of jesus, spiritually speaking.

[bija]

1 John was written with some context. The message of that epistle was speaking to a people who had been influenced by a line of thought that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh. John goes on to say that those who do not accept that Jesus came in the flesh are spirit of anti-christ.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

From John 17

 

 

 

It is clear to see that Jesus is talking in terms of plural relationships between himself and the Supreme Lord as well as his disciples.

 

Verse 11 clearly indicates that Jesus wants his disciples to be one with God just as he is one with God.

 

From the impersonalist viewpoint that means merging into an impersonal oneness.

 

For the personalist oneness means one in loving relationship.

 

Honestly, theist, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. It appears as if you are now agreeing with me. The verse you are referring to reinforces what I already said. It actually implies that His followers are Him by proxy if not in essence. Sort of like an avatar that is now multi-faceted and incarnate.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

Don't you mean doshas? Anyway please address verse 11 directly including it's implications.

 

Potaytoe-potahtoe.

 

I am frustrated that many of the nuances in daily conversation are lost in communication over the internet. Please accept my apologies if I came off in any manner other than charitable.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

BTW, Theist is correct in his presentation --it is not a new nor original concept.

 

All cosmic affairs are preformed by plenary portions of the whole.

 

Theist is fully read on these topics** and it should be a challenge for any one to speak contrary to him without doing their home work.

 

Remember most of us are awake only 16 hours per day and most of that is pre-occupied with just a short burst of concentrated effort per day--it takes years of study in any field to get it all sorted out.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The tendency to offer advise when one is actually not thoroughly informed is commonplace --yet such a tendency is dishonest and is an act of propagating data that is 'for all intents and purposes' not verified to the best of ones judgement --such acts accrues undesirable karmic re-action [it is similar to paying 'false witness'].

 

The best way for chaos to flourish is for good men to invent any old thing in lieu of authentic scholarship.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The only thing to avoid is digressions of any sort--"keep on task" while discussing/requesting investigative scholarship work.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

doshas? Don't you mean Besan dohkla?

Oh, doshas. You mean like prana and kudalini & potatos?

I assure you that if I am in doubt about any thing I have to say I will tell you.I am not afraid to admit if I am wrong. I am a student of life like everyone else. There is no way for me to prove to you who or what I am over the internet other than to be caught in a lie. Which would only prove me to be a liar.

 

I see that theist is well versed in many fields. I have perused his posts.

 

You're Ok with me, theist.

[theist]

 

It is clearly a complex subject; the relation between father and his only begotten son.Whether the father and son are one and the same or different entities etc.

 

In my opinion it is more fruitful to talk about the message of jesus, spiritually speaking.

 

 

This is where it is simple chandu IMO. I learned the concept of oneness and difference from Srila Prabhupada and can easily see it in the teachings of Jesus.

 

 

Christianity today is divided into two factions on this issue, one says he is the father, the other says he is the son eternal distinct from the father. According to Mahaprabhu the truth is found by combining the two. This is inconceivable for the materially molded mind to fully grasp but then the things of God are like that aren't they.

 

 

We see the same thing in the Bhagavatam. Lord Buddha Narada Muni Prithu Maharaja are all Shatyavesa Avatar's and yet are addressed as the Supreme Person.

 

 

Thanks be to Srila Prabhupada for teaching the distinction.

[theist]

 

1 John was written with some context. The message of that epistle was speaking to a people who had been influenced by a line of thought that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh. John goes on to say that those who do not accept that Jesus came in the flesh are spirit of anti-christ.

 

 

Can you not see the deeper message. I am not that concerned if John saw it or not.

 

 

Everything about Christ is loving devotion to the Supreme Father. This takes the eternal existence of both the Father and the Son.

 

 

To be against the principle of spiritual duality is to be anti the essence of Christ and therefore an impersonalist.

 

 

Impersonalism has taken root in Christian theology and it is a great pity.

[theist]

 

Honestly, theist, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. It appears as if you are now agreeing with me. The verse you are referring to reinforces what I already said. It actually implies that His followers are Him by proxy if not in essence. Sort of like an avatar that is now multi-faceted and incarnate.

 

 

Proxy is alright. But that is not exactly my point.

 

 

 

We can go over it in the morning or whenever we can. I believe it to be a very important point. We will see if you agree.

[theist]

 

Potaytoe-potahtoe.

 

I am frustrated that many of the nuances in daily conversation are lost in communication over the internet. Please accept my apologies if I came off in any manner other than charitable.

 

 

Nah, no problem or need to apologize. Those same nuances have plauged me for years. It comes with the medium.

[theist]

 

You're Ok with me, theist.

 

Thank you but stick around long enough and you will probably change your mind.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

Thank you but stick around long enough and you will probably change your mind.

I certainly hope it is not your goal to make enemies. It takes more strength to be charitable than it does to be mean.

[theist]

Catholic this is what started it off. You said:

We believe that Jesus IS God.Much theway Krisna devotees believe that Krisna is Vishnu; And much the way SaiBaba devotees believe that Sai Baba is Shiva.

 

And I challenged the validity of that statement (not your right to believe it).

 

I offered this from the Bible:

6"I have revealed you^[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

 

7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

 

8ForI gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knewwith certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sentme.

 

9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

 

10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

 

11Iwill remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world,and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of yourname—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

 

12WhileI was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by thatname yougave me. None has been lost except the one doomed todestruction sothat Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

13"Iam coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still intheworld, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.

 

14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

 

15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

 

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

 

17Sanctify^[b] them by the truth; your word is truth.

 

18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

 

19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

 

And I emphasized verse 11.

 

This whole section is a prayer by Christ to God the Father. He is speaking to another person. He is not speaking to himself. Therefore there is someone superior to Christ whom Christ is serving. This is clear all through the new testament.

 

Concerning verse 11; Christ is praying that his disciples become one with the Lord as he is one with the Lord.

 

Under your interpretation that Jesus is himself the Supreme God, the only purport possible is that Jesus is praying to God(Himself) that his disciples become God just as he is God.

 

I want to go slow with this so that we track well with each other and an understanding may be reached. At which time of course you may decide I am wrong but at least you will understand what I am saying.

 

Do you see that. What are you thoughts so far?

 

Hare Krishna! Jaya Yeshua!

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

Catholic this is what started it off. You said:

 

And I challenged the validity of that statement (not your right to believe it).

 

I offered this from the Bible:

 

And I emphasized verse 11.

 

This whole section is a prayer by Christ to God the Father. He is speaking to another person. He is not speaking to himself. Therefore there is someone superior to Christ whom Christ is serving. This is clear all through the new testament.

 

Concerning verse 11; Christ is praying that his disciples become one with the Lord as he is one with the Lord.

 

Under your interpretation that Jesus is himself the Supreme God, the only purport possible is that Jesus is praying to God(Himself) that his disciples become God just as he is God.

 

I want to go slow with this so that we track well with each other and an understanding may be reached. At which time of course you may decide I am wrong but at least you will understand what I am saying.

 

Do you see that. What are you thoughts so far?

 

Hare Krishna! Jaya Yeshua!

 

Good evening theist.

 

Yes. In a manner of speaking Jesus DID pray to himself.

 

We see God as a trinity. God=1)The Father,2)The son3)The Holy Spirit

 

Since we are created in Gods image, we posses the same attributes. Soul, Body and Spirit. The Father is the Soul=the Universe.(Brahma?) The Son is Jesus (Avatar) and the Holy Spirit is,well,the spirit.

[theist]

 

Good evening theist.

 

Yes. In a manner of speaking Jesus DID pray to himself.

 

We see God as a trinity. God=1)The Father,2)The son3)The Holy Spirit

 

Since we are created in Gods image, we posses the same attributes. Soul, Body and Spirit. The Father is the Soul=the Universe.(Brahma?) The Son is Jesus (Avatar) and the Holy Spirit is,well,the spirit.

 

 

And so when the mission of the Avatar is complete he goes back to merge into the Father as you see it?

[bija]

 

...The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

And so when the mission of the Avatar is complete he goes back to merge into the Father as you see it?

 

No. Every living being is autonomous. Even Jesus. That is almost as absurd as trying to crawl back into your mother's womb. All living things are eternal, spiritually.

[theist]

 

No. Every living being is autonomous. Even Jesus. That is almost as absurd as trying to crawl back into your mother's womb. All living things are eternal, spiritually.

 

 

Right, it is absurd but this thinking makes up a huge part of the world's thinking when it comes to spiritual life. You mentioned Sai baba, this is how he thinks of union with God along with many other prominent teachers.

 

 

Christ taught eternal devotion to God as did Mahaprabhu.

 

 

 

Catholic: Yes. In a manner of speaking Jesus DID pray to himself.

 

 

So the point is Christ prayed to another autonomous person, the Supreme Person , and not to Himself. This in spite of his being one with God. I believe this is a vital point we must be clear on.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

So the point is Christ prayed to another autonomous person, the Supreme Person , and not to Himself. This in spite of his being one with God. I believe this is a vital point we must be clear on.

 

Hi, theist! It's always a pleasure to chat with you.

 

My understanding is thus...God(YwYh)and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all three one and the same. God is like Jesus' higher self. I am not sure what the proper Hindu word for it is. We each have a higher self,no? We have three parts to us,body soul and spirit, no?, The same with Jesus, there is Jesus, god and Holy Spirit.

 

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all three the same being.