Two Kinds of Souls

[suchandra 1]

Interesting article at cintamani.org, the jivas are seeing both, the spiritual and the material world.

 

Krsna says, “From here you can see this world of maya, and you can also see towards the spiritual world. What you will choose depends upon you. I am giving you a moment to choose.”

In other words, the parameter that the jiva-atma can only come to a decision when having knowledge in full of both sides is taken into account.

 

 

posted: September 9th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

 

Two Kinds of Souls

 

 

 

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then said:

 

 

krsna bhuli’ sei

jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-dukha

 

[Devotee reads:] Mahaprabhu continued, “Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy, maya, gives him all kinds of misery in this material existence.” (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.117)

[srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] A question arises: if all souls are eternal servants of Sri Krsna, when did they become adverse (bahirmukha) to Him? When did they turn away from Him? Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has explained this by quoting the version of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: “Krsna bhuli’ sei jiva.” Who is the jiva referred to in this verse? He is the eternal servant of Sri Krsna, Krsna’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). This should be remembered always; the jiva is not a direct manifestation of Sri Krsna’s internal potency.

Svarupa-sakti, that is, Sri Krsna’s complete spiritual, internal potency, has three transcendental manifestations, namely hladini-sakti (Krsna’s potency of transcendental happiness), samvit (His divine knowledge potency), and sandhini-sakti (His spiritual existence potency). From svarupa-sakti Lord Nrsimha, Lord Rama, and other incarnations manifest, and these incarnations are called svamsa, personal expansions of Krsna. The vibhinnamsa jiva, meaning the separated, infinitesimal part and parcel of Sri Krsna, never came directly from svarupa-sakti, and that is why he is called vibhinnamsa. *[see endnote 1]

Why did the jiva become adverse to Krsna? This is the question. If he is Krsna’s eternal servant, he must certainly be engaged in His service. The answer is explained in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila chapter 22, verses 10-13, beginning, “sei vibhinnansa…”

 

 

[Devotee reads:]

 

 

sei

vibhinnamsa jiva—dui ta’ prakara

eka—‘nitya-mukta’, eka—‘nitya samsara’

 

 

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.10)

 

 

“The living entities, the

jivas, are divided into two categories. Some are nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, never having been conditioned, and others are eternally conditioned (nitya-samsara).” [see endnote 2]

 

The categorization here is simply between those who are nitya mukta (ie never baddha at any time) and nitya baddha (never in the spiritual world at any time). Therefore, the nitya mukta category will include nitya parikaras who come from Baladeva, and also the jivas who came from Karanodakasayi Visnu and fortunately ‘looked’ toward Yogamaya rather than Mahamaya. –ed.]

[srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] What is the meaning of ‘eternally conditioned’? It does not mean ‘forever conditioned’. It means that the time we have been conditioned is so vast that it cannot be calculated.

[Devotee reads:]

 

 

‘

nitya-mukta’—nitya krsna-carane unmukha

‘krsna-parisada’ nama, bhunje seva-sukha

 

 

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.11)

 

 

“Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Him.”

 

[srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] This verse conveys a very important point. Those who are senior in bhakti will greatly benefit by attentively hearing the meaning of this verse. Those who are beginners may not be able to comprehend the meaning, but they will profit by even trying to understand.

The liberated jivas are eternal associates of Sri Krsna, always engaged in serving Him and always tasting and relishing the sweetness of their service. In the Lord’s abode there is no maya (the material potency, which bewilders the conditioned soul and encourages him to identify with his body and bodily extensions). Only yogamaya (the spiritual potency that nourishes the service mood of liberated souls) is there. There is nothing in the spiritual world to make one forget Krsna, and therefore the Lord’s associates there cannot forget Him or become adverse to Him. The love and affection of these associates is always fresh and ever-new. Even though, on one hand, there is no room for their ever-fresh love to become still newer, it does so.

[Devotee reads:]

 

 

‘

nitya-baddha’——krsna haite nitya-bahirmukha

‘nitya-samsara’, bhunje narakadi duùkha

 

 

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.12)

 

 

“Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are thus subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions.”

 

 

sei dose

maya-pisaci danda kare tare

adhyatmikadi tapa-traya tare jari’ mare

 

 

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.13)

 

 

“Due to his being opposed to Krsna consciousness, the conditioned soul is punished by the witch of the external energy,

maya. He is thus ready to suffer the threefold miseries brought about by the body and mind, the inimical behavior of other living entities, and natural disturbances caused by demigods.”

 

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] The souls in the second category – the conditioned souls – have never directly associated with Krsna, nor have they tasted His service. Therefore, they are called ‘perpetually conditioned’ (nitya-bahirmukha). They have been conditioned from beginningless time.

Why are they being punished? What have they done wrong? Try to understand this important point. They have done something wrong, and that is why Lord Krsna’s maya is punishing them. What is their defect? They have chosen to turn away from Krsna. They have chosen to look towards the material world for pleasures, and in this way they are opposed to Krsna consciousness.

The souls in this world are considered to be ‘nitya-baddha‘, or eternally conditioned, which actually means they are ‘anadi-baddha’, conditioned since beginningless time or time immemorial. Still, although they have never relished the sweetness of serving Krsna nor do they know anything about such service, they are eternal servants by their constitutional position.

A certain type of jiva has come from the spiritual world, either from Baladeva in Goloka Vrndavana or from Baladeva’s expansion known as Maha Sankarsana (Lord Narayana) in Vaikuntha; but not all jivas. Those jivas who manifest from Baladeva and Maha Sankarsana are called nitya-unmukha. That is, they are always serving Krsna.

Although the tatastha-sakti jivas are servants by constitution, this second kind of jiva have not come from Goloka Vrndavana. The conditioned souls of this world have never been in Goloka Vrndavana. This second kind of jiva is coming from Karanodakasayi Visnu. *[see endnote 3]

Srila Jiva Gosvami has clarified the understanding of the two kinds of jivas. He states:

 

 

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah

tatra tasam varga-dvayam

eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah

anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paranmukhah

svabhavatas tadiya-jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca

 

 

(Paramatma Sandarbha - Anuccheda 47 text 1)

 

 

[“Thus the Lord's marginal potency is comprised of individual spirit souls. Although these individual spirit souls are limitless in number, they may be divided into two groups: 1) the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord; and 2) the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. One group is aware of the Lord's glories, and the other group is not aware of them.”]

 

There are unlimited jivas emanating from tatastha-sakti, and from there, some have turned away from Krsna. They turned away from Krsna and chose to enter the material world.

As mentioned above, the conditioned souls are coming from Karanodakasayi Visnu, from His divine light-filled glance. From that light, Sri Krsna in His form as Sri Visnu, gives them the intelligence and freedom to consider, “What should I do?” There is a very fine, imaginary line between the transcendental world and the material world. Krsna gave the jivas some freedom, saying, “From here you can see this world of maya, and you can also see towards the spiritual world. What you will choose depends upon you. I am giving you a moment to choose.”

Certain jivas looked toward the spiritual world and were attracted. Yogamaya at once gave them the power to go to the spiritual world and serve the Lord there for eternity. Others looked towards this world. They were attracted and decided to relish it.

This material world is like a dream-place (svapna-sthana). Try to understand this. It seems that we are now in full worldly knowledge. It seems that we are awake and that someone else is fast asleep without dreaming at all, but actually this place is like a dream-place. We are seeing a dream. We are not in such deep sleep that we are fully unconscious, because we are part of the spiritual conscious substance (cid-vastu) even when we are not liberated.

 

Endnote: http://www.cintamani.org/sri-guru/srila-bv-narayana-maharaja/two-kinds-of-souls/

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] The souls in the second category – the conditioned souls – have never directly associated with Krsna, nor have they tasted His service.

 

Nonsense, all souls have originated from Krsnaloka

 

Also if you think I am a moderator, I am not.

[suchandra 1]

 

Nonsense, all souls have originated from Krsnaloka

 

Also if you think I am a moderator, I am not.

Article above says, Krsna speaks.

 

 

Krsna gave the jivas some freedom, saying, “From here you can see this world of maya, and you can also see towards the spiritual world. What you will choose depends upon you. I am giving you a moment to choose.”

Agreed, the "moment to choose" might be a bit too short for many jivas in order to make the right decision and feel hopelessly overstrained. Like at a countdown clock running in the back and the exertion increases to the utmost limit.

 

[RamanaDasi 0]

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.

The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

 

from Brahmana o Vaisnavera Taratmya

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.163

PURPORT

The thirteen meanings of the ātmārāma verse mentioned here are based on the following meanings for the word ātmārāma: (1) sādhaka, the neophyte performer; (2) brahma-maya, one absorbed in the thought of impersonal Brahman; (3) prāpta-brahma-laya, one who has actually attained Brahman perfection; (4) mumukṣu, one who desires liberation; (5) jīvan-mukta, one who is liberated in this life; (6) prāpta-svarūpa, one who has attained his original constitutional position; (7) nirgrantha-muni, a completely liberated saint; (8) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, a yogī meditating upon the four-handed Viṣṇu form and desiring yogic perfection; (9) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, one who is trying for perfection in impersonal meditation; (10) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, one who has been elevated to the platform of yogic perfection by meditating on the Viṣṇu form; (11) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, an impersonal yogī on the platform of perfection; (12) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi, one who has attained the perfectional stage by meditating on the Viṣṇu form; (13) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi, one who has attained perfection by practicing impersonal meditation.

 

This purport by Srila Prabhupada is a word for word copy of the Bengali commentary to this verse written in the Anubhasya (CC commentary) of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura. That is, Srila Prabhupada is repeating what Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur wrote in his commentary to 2.24.163

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.121mokṣākāńkṣī jñānī haya tina-prakāra

mumukṣu, jīvan-mukta, prāpta-svarūpa āra

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

mokṣa-ākāńkṣī — those who desire to merge into the impersonal Brahman; jñānī — advanced in knowledge; haya — are; tina-prakāra — three varieties; mumukṣu — desiring to be liberated; jīvan-mukta — already liberated, even in this life; prāpta-svarūpa — self-realized; āra — and.

TRANSLATION

"Those who wish to merge into the impersonal Brahman are also divided into three categories — those desiring to be liberated, those already liberated and those who have realized Brahman."

 

 

The soul who is in the state of prapta-svarupa-siddhi is a liberated soul with no physical body. Note that according to verse 2.24.121 this type of soul is a person who is immersed in impersonal Brahman realization. A soul who is prapta-svarupa-siddhi is an impersonalist and not a person engaged in bhakti. A soul such as this regards God as being Nirguna or in other words as having no-qualities or form (nirvisesa brahma).

 

It is from among these liberated souls who Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says do not "exhibit a taste for serving the Lord" that souls come down to this world. The Bhakta will never fall down, it is only the souls dwelling in the rays of the Spiritual Sky who fall down into Maya. As Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says, "Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord".

There are different categories of devotees in Santa Rasa. According to CC, it is from the Santa-Rasa group that souls fall down into Maya. Souls who are in the groups of Radharani, Yashoda or Subala never fall down and imagine they are enjoyers of material experiences.

[bija 0]

Thank you for the article Suchandra.

 

 

A certain type of jiva has come from the spiritual world, either from Baladeva in Goloka Vrndavana or from Baladeva’s expansion known as Maha Sankarsana (Lord Narayana) in Vaikuntha; but not all jivas. Those jivas who manifest from Baladeva and Maha Sankarsana are called nitya-unmukha. That is, they are always serving Krsna.

Although the tatastha-sakti jivas are servants by constitution, this second kind of jiva have not come from Goloka Vrndavana. The conditioned souls of this world have never been in Goloka Vrndavana. This second kind of jiva is coming from Karanodakasayi Visnu.

Of special interest upon reading this: The eternally conditioned souls position would be utterly hopeless if the mercy potency did not send nitya-mukta's to this world.

 

As we know, when we awaken to purer states of consciousness, we can begin to perceive the wise souls who have awakened somewhat and received good birth. Such a good birth that they may be able to have association of a nitya-mukta soul (or his/her follower), who have come to this earth under divine instruction, or have lived for some time in divine guidance (the followers).

 

Personally if I see such a soul (a neighbour or whoever) who is traversing the path of God awareness, I will seek their association. Even more so I would seek the association of one who is surrendered to the potency of Sri Nityananda-Rama.

 

It is obvious for us souls (speaking for myself) that we were nitya-baddha. The evidence is clear, for in this very life we awoke from the illusion of gross sense enjoyment, due to a follower and preacher of a great souls message. Blessed are those who met him directly.

 

Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

[suchandra 1]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.163

This purport by Srila Prabhupada is a word for word copy of the Bengali commentary to this verse written in the Anubhasya (CC commentary) of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura. That is, Srila Prabhupada is repeating what Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur wrote in his commentary to 2.24.163

 

 

 

The soul who is in the state of prapta-svarupa-siddhi is a liberated soul with no physical body. Note that according to verse 2.24.121 this type of soul is a person who is immersed in impersonal Brahman realization. A soul who is prapta-svarupa-siddhi is an impersonalist and not a person engaged in bhakti. A soul such as this regards God as being Nirguna or in other words as having no-qualities or form (nirvisesa brahma).

 

It is from among these liberated souls who Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says do not "exhibit a taste for serving the Lord" that souls come down to this world. The Bhakta will never fall down, it is only the souls dwelling in the rays of the Spiritual Sky who fall down into Maya. As Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says, "Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord".

There are different categories of devotees in Santa Rasa. According to CC, it is from the Santa-Rasa group that souls fall down into Maya. Souls who are in the groups of Radharani, Yashoda or Subala never fall down and imagine they are enjoyers of material experiences.

Thanks RamanaDasi for posting this purport by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, so far the most detailed description. This also explains why almost an unlimited amount of souls come to the material world - the brahmajyoti consists of an unlimited amount of souls. Looks like once having entered the brahmajyoti there seems of no way back then via entering the material world? In other words, since nothing is impossible in the spiritual world, are there also souls who return from the brahmajyoti directly to Vaikuntha, right into an active relationship with the Lord?

[bija 0]

As far as I understand it, jiva is a part of the superior energy and at the same time marginal potency of the Lord. Jiva will always remain jiva you could say.

 

I would say the Lord's energies are eternal and not subject to change. For example jiva shakti is an eternal reality. Infact all energies of the Lord are purely spiritual; material energy has been explained as transformation...the example being given of milk and yoghurt. Milk can turn into yoghurt, but yoghurt cannot again become milk. Sankaracarya denies the theory of transformation of energies of the Supreme, and therefore put forward the theory of 'illusion'.

 

So jiva can either look toward the spiritual, which is its true nature, or choose to enjoy seperately the inferior energy. The nitya-baddha souls are most fortunate to come into contact with superior energy (with service mood), by the grace of a higher principal.

 

On a side note, impersonal philosophies are attractive for many in this world. Why this is so is explained in the above quote by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta very nicely.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

.This also explains why almost an unlimited amount of souls come to the material world - the brahmajyoti consists of an unlimited amount of souls. Looks like once having entered the brahmajyoti there seems of no way back then via entering the material world?

 

In other words, since nothing is impossible in the spiritual world, are there also souls who return from the brahmajyoti directly to Vaikuntha, right into an active relationship with the Lord?

 

The correct understanding of this is that the dormant or impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is a dreamless dream state of the baddha-jiva, which is the projected secondary dreaming consciousness of the marginal living entity. The first is their eternal nitya-siddha body that is permanently in Krsnaloka

 

Actually the full potential of ALL marginal living entities is already eternally established within the 'perpetual present' of Krsnaloka where there is no past or future. This means what is there as our vigraha (form) is always there as nitya-siddha

 

This therefore clearly means EVERY living entity has an eternal svarupa or nitya-siddha body that is ALWAYS PRESENT in Krsnaloka, even if they are 'DREAMING' (This dream state is called nitya baddha) they are in the mahat-tattva, which is the material dream creation of Maha-Vishnu.Or, after becoming fed up with the mahat-tattva, enter a dreamless dream state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you are already there in the spiritual sky, he clarifies that by saying relationships with Krsna’, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there, but our memory of who we are, is presently covered by the eternal presence polluted by our added creation of past and future. This immediately places ‘our awareness’ within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu known as the perishable material creation.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally.

Srila Prabhupada does not mean we spring to consciousness from a so-called dormant state from the Brahmajyoti.

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swamiwas preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him -

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body?

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.”

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable,

But are they?

Actually, they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal presentbecause there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

[bija 0]

Over the past week or so Ramana dasi has shared some choice scripture on the nature of soul from Vedanta-sutra. One reference she has posted several times is that the soul can choose to have a body or not have a body.

 

We can see the reality of material body in connection with soul, very clearly from our day to day experience in this world, as conditioned souls who have faith in scripture that brahman exists.

 

What is truly wonderful is that the Vaisnava tradtion says very simply that this world is a shadow reflection of the spiritual kingdom. Vedanta sutra clearly says that a soul will attain what it desires and cultivates.

 

The problems in philosophy arise when the Vaisnava says that the spiritual kingdom is the goal, and the Mayavadi says the Kingdom of God is a temporary phenomena, that needs to be passed through (transcended) for full mukti. We can see this dubious philosophy is covered Buddhism.

 

To counter this argument we have the atmarama verses quoted above by Dasi. The vaisnava says simply that, the bliss in service mood and a personal spiritual reality, far surpasses the bliss found in peaceful santa rasa.

 

But saying that in our tradition we are taught that each soul finds its fullest satisfaction in its settled rasa. So how is it that there are stories of those situated in santa, such as the four kumaras, eventually become attracted to devotional service.

 

The way I see these apparent contradictions is that the Lord is so merciful, he reveals the total absolute possibility through vedanta. And also the Lord actually desires lila on a purely spiritual platform with his parts and parcels. Hence stories of the four kumaras etc. Devotional lila actually conquering the Unconquerable.

 

The Lord's kindness is so great that he endows his minute particles with free will and choice, which is inherent in spiritual energy. He is so kind that he even allows his parts to explore this material world seperate from him, but has arranged it in such a way that the material encounter in the end is lacking true satisfaction. Once the soul has experienced complete dissatisfaction it will search for higher happiness.

 

In due course, where the soul finds its fullest satisfaction, there it will stay. The Lord being fully self satisfied, being the summum bonum, will also be fully satisfied. The complete truth (absolute) does not suffer relative dualities like the conditioned souls who identify with conditioned mind, which is simply a part of the inferior energy (with temporary rasa).

[Sarva gattah 0]

Very nice however, the following is the point that Srila Prabhupada has taught me since 1971 -

 

EVERY living entity has an eternal svarupa or nitya-siddha body that is ALWAYS PRESENT in Krsnaloka, even if they are 'DREAMING' (This dream state is called nitya baddha) they are in the mahat-tattva, which is the material dream creation of Maha-Vishnu. Or, after becoming fed up with the mahat-tattva, enter a dreamless dream state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

[bija 0]

Sorry Sarva, my post came after yours, we must have posted at similar times. I was actually replying to Ramana dasi's ideas.

 

As far as the nature of spiritual body being eternal, it is such a profound subject, that it is best to surrender to what we have learnt as you say. The subject matter of the absolute is so profound.

 

Personally though I repose my faith in Sri Krsna's promise in Gita, that once the soul has realized Him (his nature), that soul will never again fall to this miserable identification with old age, disease, and death.

[suchandra 1]

 

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you are already there in the spiritual sky, he clarifies that by saying relationships with Krsna’, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there, but our memory of who we are, is presently covered by the eternal presence polluted by our added creation of past and future. This immediately places ‘our awareness’ within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu known as the perishable material creation.

Could be that in this case although the different versions look completely different they're still not mutually exclusive.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

· “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

 

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm were/are originally (without a beginning point) created as a person with full bodily features.

 

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanantly, without beginning or end, secure in that realm of origin.

 

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

 

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world of Krsnaloka, all living entities are perpetually serving Krsna in a never ending state of ORIGINALITY as their svarupa bodily form, if they choose to remember this is who they really are.

 

This means the living entites are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the effect of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in eternal vigraha (bodily form) in the beginning and remains that way eternally, which paradoxically was beginningless and endless.

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original-eternal home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

 

This is realized, revived, remembered and regained when we (including good hearted souls like Suchandra) stop dreaming we are in the material creation

[primate 0]

Thanks!

[suchandra 1]

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. .

Just one question, do you conclude from these quotes that all the living entities in the material world are simultaneously in Vaikuntha and fully absorbed in bhakti-rasa and don't have to worry about anything?

Everything what happens in the material world is just a naptime and you just dream to be here while you're actually situated in transcendental activities in Vaikuntha?

[primate 0]

Yes.

[RamanaDasi 0]

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

You are quoting the words of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura out of context, and indeed in the proper context it is clear that he is saying something altogether different from what you purport he is saying.

 

This quote is from a discussion with Professor Suthers, in which Saraswati Thakura said:

 

 

 

 

Anthropomorphism i.e., representation of the Deity with human form and attributes, resembles the tenet of the Bauls of Bengal attributing divinity to the head of their sect, professing, as they do, though wrongly, to have perceptorially descended from Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Such tenets are the mental imaginations of atheists like the Bouddhas and of the Bauls as above, running contrary to the teachings of Shri Buddha-Vishnu and Shri Chaitanya-Vishnu respectively. The Mayavadi sect too has adopted similar principles. The really scientific philosophy of the Shrimad Bhagavatam and the preachings of Shri Chaitanya Deva have, of course, accepted the human body [1] as the Divine Manifestation; but that human body is not the creation of anthropomorphism, nor of the Baul doctrine, but it is the eternal, transcendental Sachidananda Body, the Cause of all causes, the highest Sportive Entity. When the human soul can acquire the wealth of all the sciences in perfection, then only is opened the door of the foremost mystery of true science. According to the Vaishnava Philosophy, the Sportive Manifestation of God is of two kinds. One kind is the creation of the material and spiritual universe and its systematization with inviolable rules. The school of intelligent empiricists can to a certain extent experience this type of God's Sportive Manifestation. The second kind is the Descent of God's Transcendental Sport in this created universe. It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment.

 

 

But when again the soul of a jiva, gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God at the feet of a representative of His, i.e., a true devotee His, he begins to get back his pure essential nature gradually unfolded, and God's Transcendental Eternal Forms appear as the objects of his worship according to the comprehension of His service in the graded evolution of acceptance of His protection, self-surrender or theism. So in such a case there remains no room, even in the slightest degree, for any form of imaginative doctrines of the so-called civilised or uncivilised human minds, whether apotheosistic, anthropomorphic, henotheistic, theosophic, theriomorphic or therianthropic. The real, eternal and transcendental Divine Forms reveal themselves to the pure souls according to the nature of their serving mood in the evolutionary growth there. The only cause of these Divine Descents is the intense Mercy of God towards jivas. In Europe the theories of physical evolution of Darwin and Lamarck have been considered. But it is in the Vaishnava Philosophy alone that we see the fully scientific and real conception of each eternal and transcendental Divine Form for worship by the freed souls according to their evolutionary growth of serving mood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The meaning is clear. Srila Saraswati Thakura is talking about how the jivas attending the Lord's sports are jiva-souls in the material world who become involved in the sports of the Avataras who descend into the brahmanda, the material universe

 

You make it seem as if he is saying something about how souls engaging in sports in sakhkya-dasya-vataslya-madhura rasa in Goloka can fall down. Please note once again the quote I gave before

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.

The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

 

from Brahmana o Vaisnavera Taratmya

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

In the quote you gave from the conversation with Prof Suthers, Srila Saraswati Thakura does not contradict what he wrote in Brahmana o Vaisnavera Taratmya, where he wrote that the souls who fall in this world were not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord before they fell.

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[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Just one question, do you conclude from these quotes that all the living entities in the material world are simultaneously in Vaikuntha and fully absorbed in bhakti-rasa and don't have to worry about anything?

Everything what happens in the material world is just a naptime and you just dream to be here while you're actually situated in transcendental activities in Vaikuntha?

 

Nap time? AGAIN you have not understood. No one lies down in Vaikuntha asleep and then dreams the material world. Such a nonsense idea is a patronizing attack from the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin believers'

 

Dreaming we are in the material world is real but temperory. Our suffering is real, but temporary.

 

I have explained this nonsense idea of nap time or 'sleeping' in Goloka while YOU are in the material creation so many tmes. This was explained to Beggar and Guruvani very very clearly

 

Re-read those old posts

 

Yes, the nature of the material world is forgetfullness. All posts are recorded here to overcome our forgetfullness.

 

So you do not have to chew the chewd on this issue.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/446566-how-have-we-fallen-material-world-8.html

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[Sarva gattah 0]

 

In the quote you gave from the conversation with Prof Suthers, Srila Saraswati Thakura does not contradict what he wrote in Brahmana o Vaisnavera Taratmya, where he wrote that the souls who fall in this world were not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord before they fell.

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Nonsense, you do not understand his teachings or the teachings of his bonafide representatvie Srila Prabhupada who clearly says on many occasions that– “We have also ALL come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

 

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

 

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swami was preaching the nonsense idea that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and not Krsnaloka and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that nonsense in his temples.

Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah 0]

This is the second most commented article on Dandavats

 

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[RamanaDasi 0]

According to some people, the personal associates of Sri Krishna can fall into a dream and experience material life again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

 

but this is not what Sri Chaitanya taught

 

I have no interest in talking with such person who believe that the Residents of Goloka can go to sleep and start dreaming of eating fish and the flavour of the meat of cows.

[RamanaDasi 0]

Sarva Gatah, according to your ideas, the personal associates of Sri Krishna can fall into a dream and experience material life again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

 

This is what your Iskcon philosophy is, isn't it?

[suchandra 1]

 

According to some people, the personal associates of Sri Krishna can fall into a dream and experience material life again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

 

but this is not what Sri Chaitanya taught

 

I have no interest in talking with such person who believe that the Residents of Goloka can go to sleep and start dreaming of eating fish and the flavour of the meat of cows.

Well spoken and simultaneously a dangerous philosophy of playing down the situation in the material world as some amusement park. However, the great acaryas all say the same, the greatest danger is samsara and the greatest tragedy, to spoil this human form of life. A philosophy that teaches I'm lying in a canopy bed in Vaikuntha and am shortly dreaming my stopover in kuntha, material universe, is rather mayavadha, somethung what is an illusory idea. It is a philosophy what makes people to stay in the material world considering I'm anyway already engaged in Krishna-lila, it's a dream, why bother?

 

"This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is determined to open wide the eyes of the so-called leaders, who are full of ignorance, and thus save them from the many pitfalls and dangerous conditions of life. The greatest danger is the danger of getting a body lower than that of a human being. It was with great difficulty that we attained this human form of life just to take advantage of this body and reestablish our relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda. Lord Śiva advises, however, that those who take advantage of his prayers will very soon become devotees of Lord Vāsudeva and thus will be able to cross the ocean of nescience and make life perfect."

SB 4.24.76

 

"In the Bhagavad-gītā (2.40) Lord Kṛṣṇa states that God-centered activities are so valuable that just a few of them can save a person from the greatest danger. The greatest danger of life is the danger of gliding down again into the evolutionary cycle of birth and death among the 8,400,000 species. If somehow or other a man misses the spiritual opportunity afforded by his human form of life and falls down again into the evolutionary cycle, he must be considered most unfortunate. Due to his defective senses, a foolish man cannot see that this is happening. Consequently Śrī Īśopaniṣad advises us to exert our energy in the spirit of īśāvāsya. Being so engaged, we may wish to live for many, many years; otherwise a long life in itself has no value. A tree lives for hundreds and hundreds of years, but there is no point in living a long time like trees, or breathing like bellows, or begetting children like hogs and dogs, or eating like camels. A humble God-centered life is more valuable than a colossal hoax of a life dedicated to godless altruism or socialism."

 

Sri Isopanisad

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Sarva Gattah, according to your ideas, the personal associates of Sri Krishna can fall into a dream and experience material life?

 

Yes, that's correct however, less than 10% choose to 'consciously' leave the eternal presents of bhakti in Goloka. It is never a bodily fall down but rather a sub-conscious fall down.

 

That freedom, free will and choice, is always there in Goloka with ALL living entities because without free will (even to leave serving Krsna in Goloka), then how can there be love.

 

We are not Krsna's robots, we are His servants by choice and free will

 

The point is, we ALL came from Krsnaloka to enter the material world and not the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a plain sheet of blanket consciousness, as some you probably know, (Govinda Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj) speak about. We also never came form some dormant realm inbetween the Vaikunthas and material worlds either.

 

We all came from Goloka

[Sarva gattah 0]

Well one thing is certain Suchandra, your not a follower of Srila Prabhupada writing that nonsense offensive impersonalism.

 

Actually Suchandra it is you who is twisting words to foolish preach Mayavadi TEACHINGS

 

You haven't got the spiritual intelligence to understand 'our original position in Goloka'