Is Mukti A Myth?

[jeffster 0]

One of the characteristics commonly attributed to God is that He is all-powerful, correct ? "Allahu akbar" in Arabic. Therefore, it follows that if God wishes to assert Himself by taking on a form, or a multitude of forms, and He does, that it must be quite readily possible for Him. This is simple logic, is it not ? What is the difficulty in understanding and accepting this simple logic ? Frankly, it is irrefutable, but it again demonstrates that some here must be either dull or envious or both. I say that not as a personal insult - Namaste - I respect the spirit within all of you, but in terms of philosophical understanding, you are sorely lacking and stubborn, as well.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[Bart Happel 0]

 

One of the characteristics commonly attributed to God is that He is all-powerful, correct ? "Allahu akbar" in Arabic. Therefore, it follows that if God wishes to assert Himself by taking on a form, or a multitude of forms, and He does, that it must be quite readily possible for Him. This is simple logic, is it not ? What is the difficulty in understanding and accepting this simple logic ? Frankly, it is irrefutable, but it again demonstrates that some here must be either dull or envious or both. I say that not as a personal insult - Namaste - I respect the spirit within all of you, but in terms of philosophical understanding, you are sorely lacking and stubborn, as well.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

 

Perhaps I have to re-read the thread. Anyway, I missed any discussion about monism not acknowledging form.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[jeffster 0]

Hello Bart,

Some monists DO accept the fact of form before liberation, but think that after liberation form is no longer necessary and that in the liberated state they are formless. They may even accept Krishna to some extent, thinking that worship of Krishna is beneficial before liberation, but that after liberation the Krishna conception can be cast off and that ultimately God is formless. The Vaishnava path is both the means and the end, that is to say that we worship Krishna before liberation and we worship Krishna after liberation, and we accept His form as eternal. For a Vaishnava, the difference before and after liberation is only that we have perfected our consciousness and that our bhakti, our love for Krishna becomes the overwhelming aspect, superceding both jnana or yoga. In other words, the ananda, the sweetness of bhakti experienced by the bhakta in his siddha-svarup far exceeds the aspects of either sat, being, or cid, knowledge. It is ultimately a loving exchange beyond sat or cid, but of course, it encompasses them as well. This is per my own understanding, I will have to dig to get a verse from shastra that corroborates this. Bija ?

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[bija 0]

Well said Jeffster. I don't have a good search on my pc, I'll let you dig the gems.

 

Here is a good book to read Bart and Jeffster:

 

Pushpanjali - click here

[bija 0]

 

I still don't understand..

 

Kind regards, Bart

 

42) You have given the wonderful example of a mirror. Does not everything reflected within a mirror have its real existence outside the mirror? If it did not exist outside the mirror, it could not exist as a reflection within the mirror. Similarly the existence of form and shape in the material world only serve to prove the existence of form and shape in the Spiritual Sky. Form, as we see it here in this material world, is a perverted reflection of the spiritual forms of unconditioned and liberated entities who dwell in the ever-blissful abode of the Supreme Lord. The only difference is that forms here are material and temporary, whereas forms in the spiritual sky—whether people, trees or animals—are anti-material and eternal.

 

43) In the fifteenth chapter, first verse of Bhagavad Gita, the example of a banyan tree is given. Now, a banyan tree on the bank of a lake is also seen reflected in the water. The actual tree top marks the lowest point as seen in the reflection. Similarly, he who artificially attempts at imitating the topmost expression of feeling in the Spiritual Sky, devotees' love for Krishna, only achieves the depths of degradation. Love affairs of this world are but lusty affairs. True love is not known here. Real love is found only in serving the lotus feet of Lord Shri Hari and His votaries. from the book Pushpanjali

[Bart Happel 0]

Dear Bija & Jeffster,

 

Personally I try to understand monism in terms of a simple mechanical model of reality. The theoretical properties of this system correspond remarkably well to Radhika’s explanation of mukti and monism. There is only one thing in the universe: consciousness. It is smaller than the smallest and greater than the greatest, indicating that everything in the cosmic manifestation is ‘described’ or ‘painted’ by this universal consciousness, up to the level of individual atoms, protons & neutrons, quarks, etc. The dynamics of universal consciousness are infinite. A surprisingly simple computational proof exists that such an infinite (chaotic) system can in fact produce limited, finite (or pseudo-infinite) structures within our perceptual plane. The model also complies with the existence of multiple, qualitatively different perceptual planes. The first stage of mukti may correspond to a perceptual plane where the densest regions of consciousness or energy that we call matter are no longer perceived. Instead we may perceive a different cosmic manifestation in which our bodies and structures are composed of less dense consciousness or energy or spirit. Ultimately, the final stage of mukti may be a complete merge of the soul with the singular consiousness (God). Quite nice isn’t it?

 

Kind regards, Bart

[jeffster 0]

Hello Bart,

Quite nice, but is it the complete conception ? Vaishnavas accept brahman, paramatma and Bhagavan. Monists accept brahman, yogis accept paramatma; but Bhagavan completes the conception and expresses it in its fullest sense.

Also, you state "the final stage of mukti may be a complete merge of the soul with the singular consciousness (God)." Saying "may be" means that you are speculating. "May be" suggests also "maybe not." As I have mentioned in prior posts Vaishnavas take help from guru, shastra & sadhu and they spell it out with no need for us to strain our brains to understand the ontology.

Kind regards, jeffster/AMdas

[bija 0]

If you can imagine that personality is retained after liberation, a pure personality, full of activities that are fully spiritual, loving dealings that satiate the soul with ever-new expanding bliss and love, of unlimited spiritual worlds where each devotees mood is expressed with her Lord. Then we are approaching the full conception of the absolute truth as Jeffster says.

 

When we accept Bhagavan as fully spiritual then the doorway to deep meditation is open, even for the soul who is in the cultivation stage. Gita says, 'what one remembers at the time of death, one will attain'.

 

All this has been fully described in the Vedic scriptures.

 

We have Brahman the all-pervasive, Param-atma (supersoul) the all permeating, and Bhagavan the resevoir of pastimes and bliss.

 

Science and oneness is true, but we must remember this knowledge can only take us so far, as it is based in this material world (maya). Only un-motivated devotion can help us penetrate into the furtherest realms of the Absolute into the spiritual sky, which is way beyond this material covering. No self effort will take us there, only loving service. Then we leave the clutches of maha-maya and come under the shelter of yoga-maya, where the Lord will lift the curtain bit by bit to show us who He truly is. When this begins to take place one thing happens, faith matures and devotion intensifies!

 

 

Madhurya Kadambini by Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura - click here

 

We will proceed on the basis of shastra or scriptural evidence (shabda praman), which is the best of all evidences. Thus the Taittiriya Upanishad (shruti), after discussing the different coverings (annamaya, etc.), emphatically declares that superior to Brahman, who is the shelter or support of these coverings: brahma puccham pratistha (2.5.2), is the param anandamaya purusha or paratpara tattva (most supreme truth) by describing Him as the embodiment of rasa: raso vai sah rasam hy evayam labdhvanandi bhavati, the Lord is rasa itself and, attaining that rasa, the jiva becomes blissful (2.7.2). In this vein, the Shrimad Bhagavatam, the cream of Vedanta and emperor among all types of evidence, describes Lord Krishna as the full embodiment of rasa or pleasure:

mallanam asanir nrnam nara-

varah strinam smaro murtiman

gopanam sva-jano 'satam ksiti-

bhujam sasta sva-pitroh sisuh

mrtyur bhoja-pater virah avidusam tattvam

param yoginam

vrsninam para-devateti vidito ragam

gatah sagrajah

The various groups of people in the wrestling arena regarded Krishna in different ways when He entered it with His elder brother. The wrestlers saw Krishna as a lightning bolt, the ordinary men as the best of men, the women as Cupid incarnate, the cowherd men as their relative, the impious rulers as a chastiser, His parents as their child, the King of Bhoja as death, the unlearned as the universal form, the yogis as the Absolute Truth, and the Vrishnis as their supreme worshipable Deity. (SB 10.43.17)

In the Bhagavad-gita (14.27) as well, the Lord Himself asserts His identity above Brahman: brahmano hi pratisthaham, I am the basis of Brahman. Therefore, the Absolute Truth is none other than the all-blissful transcendental Vrajraja Nandana, Shri Krishna the son of the King of Vraja. He is equipped with transcendental (shuddha sattva) eternal names, forms, qualities, and pastimes. This blissful Lord does not descend to human perceptions of the ear, eye, mind and intellect by any material cause, but rather simply by His own independent will. Just as by His own will, He appeared in the material world as Krishna, in the Yadu dynasty, and Rama, in the Raghu dynasty.

The Lord is not dependent on any material cause for His appearance. Similarly, His non-different energy, devotional service (bhakti), in keeping with its self-manifesting nature, is not dependent on any material cause. Thus it is said:

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhoksaje

ahaituky apratihata

yayatma suprasidati

“The supreme occupation (dharma) for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendental Lord. Such service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self.” (SB .2.6)

 

[bija 0]

To be honest (as my friend bishadi always recommends) and straightforward, the process is Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare!

 

 

Brhan Naradiya PuranaThe Brihan-naradiya Purana (38.126) states:

 

harer nama harer nama, harer namaiva kevalam;

kalau nasty eva nasty eva, nasty eva gatir anyatha.

“For spiritual progress in this Age of Kali which is full of quarrel and hypocrisy, there is no alternative, there is no alternative, there is no alternative to the holy name, the holy name, the holy name of the Lord.”

 

Purport by Swami Gaurangapada:

 

This verse is furthur explained in Shri Chaitanya-caritamrita, Adi-lila 17.22-26 & translated by Shrila Prabhupada as follows:

 

kali-kale nama-rupe krishna-avatara; nama haite haya sarva-jagat-nistara.

 

“In this Age of Kali, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, is the incarnation of Lord Krishna. Simply by chanting the holy name, one associates with the Lord directly. Anyone who does this is certainly delivered.

dardhya lagi’ ‘harer nama’-ukti tina-vara; jada loka bujhaite punah ‘eva’-kara.

“This verse repeats the word ‘eva’ [‘certainly’] three times for emphasis, and it also three times repeats ‘harer nama’ [‘the holy name of the Lord’], just to make common people understand.

 

‘kevala’-shabde punarapi nishcaya-karana, jnana-yoga-tapa-karma-adi nivarana.

 

“The use of the word ‘kevala’ [‘only’] prohibits all other processes, such as the cultivation of knowledge, practice of mystic yoga, or performance of austerities and fruitive activities.

 

anyatha ye mane, tara nahika nistara nahi, nahi, nahi--e tina ‘eva’-kara

 

“This verse clearly states that anyone who accepts any other path (other than the chanting of Hare Krishna) cannot be delivered. This is the reason for the triple repetition ‘nothing else, nothing else, nothing else,’ which emphasizes the real process of self-realization.” (Purport ends)

Maha-mantra Yoga Book - click here

[Bart Happel 0]

 

Hello Bart,

Quite nice, but is it the complete conception ? Vaishnavas accept brahman, paramatma and Bhagavan. Monists accept brahman, yogis accept paramatma; but Bhagavan completes the conception and expresses it in its fullest sense.

Also, you state "the final stage of mukti may be a complete merge of the soul with the singular consciousness (God)." Saying "may be" means that you are speculating. "May be" suggests also "maybe not." As I have mentioned in prior posts Vaishnavas take help from guru, shastra & sadhu and they spell it out with no need for us to strain our brains to understand the ontology.

Kind regards, jeffster/AMdas

 

Firstly, I think that if reality and spiritual experience can be understood in terms of a simple mathematical model, this would be beneficial to our God-consciousness. So let me (tentatively) try to incorporate the concepts that you mention into the model.

 

Monism accepts Brahman and it accepts souls. In the model, Brahman is the chaotic system itself, and souls are complex dynamic regions in the so called ‘state-space attractor’ of the system. Such regions are the most changing. What we call matter are regions that are the most stable or unchanging. Living organisms would be some intermediate dynamic regime in the model. Paramatma (supersoul) is the most complex or most changing regime in this continuum.

 

So called ‘phase-projections’ of a chaotic attractor display a hierarchical self-similar structure or ‘fractal structure’. Similar structures can be seen within similar structures, within similar structures, infinitely. The top of this hierarchy (the largest scale) forms the basic structure that is infinitely repeated at smaller scales in the model. In the model, small scale living beings may then be ‘similar’ to the basic large scale structure at the top of this hierarchy. Since living beings are personal, this ‘top being’ may also be personal. As such it can be seen as Bhagavan. However, in the model, Bhagavan is not equal to Brahman. Bhagavan is a manifestation (phase-projection) of Brahman.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija 0]

No no Bart! This is all a phase simulator and virtual game, created by an intelligent fractal manipulator...to keep us all busy and entertained so that we forget the real world...which is of essence (simplicity)!

 

The Linden family contacted their higher buddhi (through a tibetan mandala), and created Second Life, to prepare future generations to come, so that it is not shattering when all is revealed that this world is illusion (and void)...and to show that game playing has very little productivity, especially when you reach level 100! And also to show what trouble we can get ourselves into playing God's with no limits!

 

 

 

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3BIHlrPLzk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">

[jeffster 0]

Hello Bart,

I am not a scientist, so it is difficult for me to understand some of what you are saying and comment on it. From my perspective, it sounds like speculation, although there are Vaishnava scientists who could likely comment on it. You may want to check out BI, Bhaktivedanta Institute, which is a group of Vaishnava scientists. The model I use of brahman, paramatma, Bhagavan is spiritual science, based on shastra, sadhu and guru. Vaishnavas use the descending process and get our knowledge from sages who have already traversed the path and are then qualified to make an authoritative report. Your process, the ascending process, is done on the strength of the practitioner's own intelligence, and is essentially a process of elimination to arrive at truth. This is a valid process, no doubt, but difficult, and cannot carry you beyond the brahman conception. Bhagavan can only be known through bhakti, which includes surrender. You state that "Bhagavan is not equal to Brahman. Bhagavan is a manifestation (phase-projection) of Brahman." The Vaishnava understanding is that brahman (or brahmajyoti) are the rays emanating from the transcendental body of the person Bhagavan, who is, therefore, the source of brahman, just as sun rays emanate from the sun globe. Therefore, according to Vaishnava understanding brahman is a manifestation of Bhagavan. Brahman is not independent of Bhagavan. Bhagavan certainly does have an impersonal aspect, known as brahman, but Bhagavan is the original source of brahman and He is further known as Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When you see pictures of Krishna, you will often see a bright effulgence surrounding His face. That effulgence is brahman.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[Bart Happel 0]

 

... the ascending process, is done on the strength of the practitioner's own intelligence, and is essentially a process of elimination to arrive at truth. This is a valid process, no doubt, but difficult, and cannot carry you beyond the brahman conception. ...

As I understand it, Brahman is the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman ). This means: nothing exists beyond Brahman.

 

 

... The Vaishnava understanding is that brahman (or brahmajyoti) are the rays emanating from the transcendental body of the person Bhagavan, who is, therefore, the source of brahman, just as sun rays emanate from the sun globe. Therefore, according to Vaishnava understanding brahman is a manifestation of Bhagavan. ...

This cannot be correct (see my first comment).

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija 0]

 

This cannot be correct (see my first comment). by bart

 

 

http://causelessmercy.com/Bg14.1.htm

 

Bg14.27

TEXT 27

brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham

amṛtasyāvyayasya ca

śāśvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikāntikasya ca

 

 

brahmaṇaḥ—of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi—certainly; pratiṣṭhā—the rest; aham—I am; amṛtasya—of the imperishable; avyayasya—immortal; ca—also; śāśvatasya—of eternal; ca—and; dharmasya—of the constitutional position; sukhasya—happiness; aikāntikasya—ultimate; ca—also.

 

 

TRANSLATION

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.

 

PURPORT

The constitution of Brahman is immortality, imperishability, eternity, and happiness. Brahman is the beginning of transcendental realization. Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is the middle, the second stage in transcendental realization, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate realization of the Absolute Truth. Therefore, both Paramātmā and the impersonal Brahman are within the Supreme Person. It is explained in the Seventh Chapter that material nature is the manifestation of the inferior energy of the Supreme Lord. The Lord impregnates the inferior material nature with the fragments of the superior nature, and that is the spiritual touch in the material nature. When a living entity conditioned by this material nature begins the cultivation of spiritual knowledge, he elevates himself from the position of material existence and gradually rises up to the Brahman conception of the Supreme. This attainment of the Brahman conception of life is the first stage in self-realization. At this stage the Brahman realized person is transcendental to the material position, but he is not actually perfect in Brahman realization. If he wants, he can continue to stay in the Brahman position and then gradually rise up to Paramātmā realization and then to the realization of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are many examples of this in Vedic literature. The four Kumāras were situated first in the impersonal Brahman conception of truth, but then they gradually rose to the platform of devotional service. One who cannot elevate himself beyond the impersonal conception of Brahman runs the risk of falling down. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that although a person may rise to the stage of impersonal Brahman, without going farther, with no information of the Supreme Person, his intelligence is not perfectly clear. Therefore, in spite of being raised to the Brahman platform, there is the chance of falling down if one is not engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Vedic language it is also said: raso vai saḥ; rasaṁ hy evāyaṁ labdhvānandī bhavati. “When one understands the Personality of God, the reservoir of pleasure, Kṛṣṇa, he actually becomes transcendentally blissful.” The Supreme Lord is full in six opulences, and when a devotee approaches Him, there is an exchange of these six opulences. The servant of the king enjoys on an almost equal level with the king. And so, eternal happiness, imperishable happiness, eternal life accompany devotional service. Therefore, realization of Brahman, or eternity, or imperishability is included in devotional service. This is already possessed by a person who is engaged in devotional service.

The living entity, although Brahman by nature, has the desire to lord it over the material world, and due to this he falls down. In his constitutional position, a living entity is above the three modes of material nature, but association with material nature entangles him in the different modes of material nature, goodness, passion and ignorance. Due to the association of these three modes, his desire to dominate the material world is there. By engagement in devotional service in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is immediately situated in the transcendental position, and his unlawful desire to control material nature is removed. Therefore the process of devotional service beginning with hearing, chanting, remembering—the prescribed nine methods for realizing devotional service—should be practiced in the association of devotees. Gradually, by such association, by the influence of the spiritual master, one’s material desire to dominate is removed, and one becomes firmly situated in the Lord’s transcendental loving service. This method is prescribed from the twenty-second to the last verse of this chapter. Devotional service to the Lord is very simple: one should always engage in the service of the Lord, should eat the remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Deity, smell the flowers offered to the lotus feet of the Lord, see the places where the Lord had His transcendental pastimes, read of the different activities of the Lord, His reciprocation of love with His devotees, chant always the transcendental vibration Hare Kṛṣṇna, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, and observe the fasting days commemorating the appearances and disappearances of the Lord and His devotees. By following such a process one becomes completely detached from all material activities. One who can thus situate himself in the brahmajyoti is equal to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in quality.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports to the Fourteenth Chapter of the Śrīmad-Bhagavad-gītā in the matter of the Three Modes of Material Nature.

 

As we take up the process mentioned above Bart we will gradually but surely experience realization (not just book knowledge) of these stages nicely

- brahman realization (all pervading aspect of the supreme truth)

- paramatma (all permeating aspect of the supreme truth)

- Bhagavan ( raso vai saḥ; rasaṁ hy evāyaṁ labdhvānandī bhavati. “When one understands the Personality of God, the reservoir of pleasure, Kṛṣṇa, he actually becomes transcendentally blissful.” The Supreme Lord is full in six opulences, and when a devotee approaches Him, there is an exchange of these six opulences. The servant of the king enjoys on an almost equal level with the king. And so, eternal happiness, imperishable happiness, eternal life accompany devotional service.)

 

Devotional service is the king of all transcendental knowledge...and it is an easy process to attain full self-realization. The Gita says the path of (jnana yoga) mental speculation will attain the same results in due course, but is ardous...and will take many births. One can situate himself instantly on the transcendenatal platform by bhakti-yoga...simply serving Krsna. It is joyous and pleasing to the heart...singing, dancing, hearing of the Lord's nectar pastimes, taking his sumptous food remnants, associating with liked minded devotees and discussing realizations etc. Simply sublime.

[bija 0]

 

Bhagavat-tattva - click here

Bhagavatam is the Crown Jewel of all Revealed Scriptures

2.1

dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsaranam satam

vedyam vastavam atra vastu-sivadam tapa-trayonmulanam

shrimad-bhagavate maha-muni-krte kim va parair isvarah

sadyo hrdy avarudhyate 'tra krtibhih susrusubhis tat-ksanat

Completely rejecting all religious principles that are materially motivated, Bhagavata-Purana propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhagavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyasa in the maturity of his spiritual realization, is sufficient in itself for God-realization. What is the need for any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhagavatam, by this culture of knowledge, the Supreme Lord is established within his heart. (Bhag. 1.1.2)

[Bart Happel 0]

 

... TRANSLATION

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal. ...

Are you sure this translation is correct? Replace the word 'basis' with a term like 'primary result' and the statement will fit into the model. It looks like there's been some mix-up of identities. Brahmana must be the origin of Bhagavan and not vise versa. Bhagavan is personal and can be perceived, so Bhagavan can't be the origin. Bhagavan must exist within the Divine ground of all matter: Brahman.

 

 

... Devotional service is the king of all knowledge...and it is an easy process to attain full self-realization. ...

I still think a clear proof would help.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija 0]

 

I still think a clear proof would help. by bart

The best proof is to begin chanting the Lord's Name...then you will have no doubts.

 

I'll be back Bart....

[jeffster 0]

How is it possible that a naughty little boy, who steals butter and yoghurt, could be God and the source of brahman ? To the monist mind, this is improbable, implausable, and doesn't even appear philosophically viable. It usually appears to be mere sentimentality. But frankly, it is inconceivable. Krishna is independent and does not readily reveal himself. Only through love, through bhakti, can He be known. I also was something of a monist before I became a Vaishnava. I studied Meher Baba and Kirpal Singh and sensed something lacking in their understanding. At first I thought that the tales of Krishna lila were fairy tales, hyperbole, as Srikanth has pointed out, but upon reading Krishna Book (the summary study of the 10th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam) I became convinced of the viability of the philosophy. This was due to the mercy of an uttama-adhikari devotee, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, who very cleverly interspersed Bhagavat philosophy throughout the story line. Krishna dispenses causeless mercy, but only to those who surrender, not to those who either wish to usurp His position or become His equal. Shastra states that there is no one equal to or superior to Him, so then how does He allow Mother Yasoda to act in a superior parental capacity, to bind Him with ropes ? This is singularly due to her great love for Him; it is lila ! Again, it is inconceivable, although I am attempting with words to convey it.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[bija 0]

 

Are you sure this translation is correct? Replace the word 'basis' with a term like 'primary result' and the statement will fit into the model. It looks like there's been some mix-up of identities. Brahmana must be the origin of Bhagavan and not vise versa. Bhagavan is personal and can be perceived, so Bhagavan can't be the origin. Bhagavan must exist within the Divine ground of all matter: Brahman. by bart

 

 

http://mybloop.com/go/l06V1D

The Hidden Treasure of the Sweet Absolute (Bhagavad Gita)

Chapter 14 text 27

 

hi - For; aham pratishta - I am the basis; bramanah - of the Absolute Truth; avyasya cha - and of the inexhaustible; amrtasya - nectar; sasvatasya cha - and of the eternal; dharmasya - divine pastimes; aikantik sukhasya cha - and of the ultimate ecstacy of divine love

 

27 I am the basis of the Absolute Truth, the inexhaustible nectar, the eternal pastimes and the ultimate ecstacy of divine love

 

or

 

27) I alone am the original mainstay of the undivided divine vitality, the inexhaustible nectar,

the timeless pastimes, and the sweetness of the ambrosia of profound love divine.

Why is this so?

 

Why is Sri Krsna the Original Source, why higher than brahman?

 

 

Everyone is searching forrasa, or pleasure. The status of rasa is the highest. As persons we have our subjective existence, but Rasa, pleasure, has His supersubjective existence. He is a person. He is ahkila rasamrta murtih -- the Reservoir of All Pleasure. He is Krishna. Rasa is Krishna. There cannot be rasa in any other place but Krishna. He is the fountainhead of all different types of rasa. So, by the nature of our constitution we have to search after Krishna. In the Brahma-Sutra it is said, "Inquire after the Supreme Cause of this world. Search!" From where has everything come? How is everything maintaining its existence? By whom? And ultimately, where does everything enter after death? That is Brahma, or Spirit, the most fundamental plane from where everything springs up, remains, and ultimately enters. Where is Brahma? The Brahma-Sutra advises us to inquire after the prime cause, the biggest, the all accommodating. But Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu replaced that, Srimad Bhagavatam replaced that with krsnanusandhana -- the search for Sri Krishna.

Brahma-jijnasa, the search for spirit, is a dry thing. That is only the exercise of your thinking faculty, a jugglery of reason. Leave that behind. Begin the search for Sri Krishna and quench the thirst of your heart. Rasa jijnasa, ***raso vai sah***. The things acquired by your reason won't satisfy you. Jnana, or knowledge, cannot really quench your thirst, so instead of brahma-jijnasa accept krsnanusandhana and begin the search for Sri Krishna.

Where is Krishna? Our real want will be satisfied only by getting the service of Krishna; not by anything else. We want to satisfy the innermost demands of our hearts. We don't care to know where we are or what is controlling everything, but we really want to quench our thirst for rasa, for madhurya, for sweetness. We must search neither for knowledge nor for the controller of this world; we must search after rasa, anandam, after beauty and charm. from the book 'Search for Sri Krsna - Reality the Beautiful by His Divine Grace Srila BR Sridhara Dev Goswami'

 

It is because of the intense rasa, sweetest of the sweet, that Sri Krsna encompasses. That is why the enlightened sages have written this way, that is why Sri Krsna himself says he is the fountain of all bliss and the basis and mainstay of spirit (brahman). In fact Bart it is for this very reason that God Is!!! This is what he is...and he is crying out to us...come home...what I am I wish to give to you!!! All through the milleniums he has sent messengers...

[bija 0]

 

Bhagavan is personal and can be perceived, so Bhagavan can't be the origin. by bart

Incorrect Bart...by knowledge and negation we may discover what brahman is. But Krsna the person is hidden by that effulgence. He is the master of yoga-maya...and only he can lift the curtain to reveal who he actually is. How can we make that curtain rise...by love and charm...

 

 

Sri Isopanisad

Mantra Fifteen

 

hiranmayena patrena

satyasyapihitam mukham

tat tvam pusann apavrnu

satya-dharmaya drstaye

 

hiranmayena - by effulgence of light; patrena - by dazzling covering; satyasya - of the Supreme Truth; apihitam - covered; mukham - the face; tat - that covering; tvam - your Self; pusam - O the Sustainer; apavrnu - kindly remove; satya - pure; dharmaya - unto the devotee; drstaye - for exhibiting

 

O my Lord, Sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit yourself to Your pure devotee.

 

 

Maha-maya places people into illusion Bart. Yoga-maya is the curtain that the Lord lifts occasionaly to reveal Himself. There is no greater proof than when that happens to a living entity...Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare - Jaya Nityananda! Jaya Gauranga! ........

[Bart Happel 0]

 

How is it possible that a naughty little boy, who steals butter and yoghurt, could be God and the source of brahman ? To the monist mind, this is improbable, implausable, and doesn't even appear philosophically viable. It usually appears to be mere sentimentality. But frankly, it is inconceivable. Krishna is independent and does not readily reveal himself. Only through love, through bhakti, can He be known. I also was something of a monist before I became a Vaishnava. I studied Meher Baba and Kirpal Singh and sensed something lacking in their understanding. At first I thought that the tales of Krishna lila were fairy tales, hyperbole, as Srikanth has pointed out, but upon reading Krishna Book (the summary study of the 10th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam) I became convinced of the viability of the philosophy. This was due to the mercy of an uttama-adhikari devotee, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, who very cleverly interspersed Bhagavat philosophy throughout the story line. Krishna dispenses causeless mercy, but only to those who surrender, not to those who either wish to usurp His position or become His equal. Shastra states that there is no one equal to or superior to Him, so then how does He allow Mother Yasoda to act in a superior parental capacity, to bind Him with ropes ? This is singularly due to her great love for Him; it is lila ! Again, it is inconceivable, although I am attempting with words to convey it.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

 

In my view Krishna simply is Brahman, and Bhagavan is His perceivable (personal) form.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[jeffster 0]

Hello Bart, In response to your statement, "In my view Krishna simply is Brahman, and Bhagavan is His perceivable (personal) form.", in a sense you can see it like that, although it isn't entirely accurate, but I hope you get a chance to study Krishna lila, and better yet, enter into it. Krishna lila transcends brahmananda realization, although of course, you and the other monists would likely disagree with that statement. As I said in prior post the debate between monists and personalists has been going on for aeons (eons) (sp?). I don't think that we'll be able to resolve it today. I can only encourage you in your spiritual pursuit, you are sincere, as are the other monists here. I feel badly because in two instances I was overly critical. That isn't the way to prove the points, it has to be done dispassionately. I feel really badly and I apologize to all of you, although the words have already left my mouth and the damage is done. Pranams to all.

Regards, jeffster (AMdas)

[bija 0]

 

Perhaps I have to re-read the thread. Anyway, I missed any discussion about monism not acknowledging form. by bart

The monists in this thread acknowledge form - the cosmic manifestation (universal form). They do not ackowledge a purely transcendental form, which is the secret of secrets.

 

Radhika has gone as far to say that Krsna's form is part of the astral plane - subtle mind only, and that one need to eventually leave that realm behind.

 

 

Once it is free

from all attachments, it becomes free from the hassles of the physical body. But still, as long as the soul has feelings of good, bad,emotions etc., it will still be in the astral body. (This means and explains that the various forms of gods and goddesses we speak of are all astral). Once the soul leaves all feelings and emotions, it has only thoughts i.e. it has a causal body only. In such a state the soul has powers to create objects and universes of its own. If it feels good of creating endless things, it remains in the causal body. But once it realizes that all this is like child's play, it forsakes its thoughts and its ego and leaves the causal to merge with the Infinite. by radhika

 

.... When the soul feels content in being with one of the aspects of the Infinite(Lord Vishnu being the Preserver), it is possible to attain it and stay in Vishnu Loka. But as long as you perceive Lord Vishnu as a form as described in the holy books, it is only the astral form of the infinite preserving capacity that you behold. But when you talk of Infinity, let me say it includes everyone and everything. All that we can possibly think of is a part of the Infinite. by radhika

Radhika very clearly places Sri Krsna in the realm of subtle entities, astral entities etc...next we may hear that transcendental sound is mind stuff.

 

I challenge where is the proof from sastra of all this speculation , that all the monists and athiests (our dear friends in this thread) applauded as a great treatise on truth? Where is Radhika's knowledge sourced from in the above statements:deal:.

 

And yes Jeffster...Bart is a deeply sincere seeker and very nice person. Preaching without attachment is necessary for cordial relations.

[bija 0]

 

In my view Krishna simply is Brahman, and Bhagavan is His perceivable (personal) form.

 

Kind regards, Bart

 

http://causelessmercy.com/Adi2.1.htm

Caitanya Caritamrta Adi2.37

TEXT 37

pṛthvī yaiche ghaṭa-kulera kāraṇa āśraya

jīvera nidāna tumi, tumi sarvāśraya

SYNONYMS

pṛthvī—the earth; yaiche—just as; ghaṭa—of earthen pots; kulera—of the multitude; kāraṇa—the cause; āśraya—the shelter; jīvera—of the living beings; nidāna—root cause; tumi—You; tumi—You; sarva-āśraya—shelter of all.

TRANSLATION

“As the earth is the original cause and shelter of all pots made of earth, so You are the ultimate cause and shelter of all living beings".

PURPORT

As the vast earth is the source for the ingredients of all earthen pots, so the Supreme Soul is the source for the complete substance of all individual living entities. The cause of all causes, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the cause of the living entities. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.10), where the Lord says, bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānām (“I am the seed of all living entities”), and in the Upaniṣads, which say, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (“the Lord is the supreme leader among all the eternal living beings”).

The Lord is the reservoir of all cosmic manifestation, animate and inanimate. The advocates of Viśiṣṭādvaita-vāda philosophy explain the Vedānta-sūtra by saying that although the living entity has two kinds of bodies—subtle (consisting of mind, intelligence and false ego) and gross (consisting of the five basic elements)—and although he thus lives in three bodily dimensions (gross, subtle and spiritual), he is nevertheless a spiritual soul. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who emanates the material and spiritual worlds, is the Supreme Spirit. As an individual spirit soul is almost identical to his gross and subtle bodies, so the Supreme Lord is almost identical to the material and spiritual worlds. The material world, full of conditioned souls trying to lord it over matter, is a manifestation of the external energy of the Supreme Lord, and the spiritual world, full of perfect servitors of the Lord, is a manifestation of His internal energy. Since all living entities are minute sparks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the Supreme Soul in both the material and spiritual worlds. The Vaiṣṇavas following Lord Caitanya stress the doctrine of acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, which states that the Supreme Lord, being the cause and effect of everything, is inconceivably, simultaneously one with His manifestations of energy and different from them.

 

What has been described above is the secret of secrets of the inner realm...the internal energy. The kingdom of God. We will realize the subject matter through devotion.

 

And below is the inconceivable subject matter of a Supreme Person we are discussing and talking about:

 

 

....In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the Lord, being equally disposed toward every living being, has no enemies and no friends but that He has special affection for a devotee who always thinks of Him in love. Therefore neutrality and partiality are both among the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and they are properly adjusted by His inconceivable energy. The Lord is Parabrahman, or the source of the impersonal Brahma, which is His all-pervading feature of neutrality. In His personal feature, however, as the owner of all transcendental opulences, the Lord displays His partiality by taking the side of His devotees. Partiality, neutrality and all such qualities are present in God; otherwise they could not be experienced in the creation. Since He is the total existence, all things are properly adjusted in the Absolute. In the relative world such qualities are displayed in a perverted manner, and therefore we experience nonduality as a perverted reflection. Because there is no logic to explain how things happen in the realm of spirit, the Lord is sometimes described as being beyond the range of experience. But if we simply accept the Lord’s inconceivability, we can then adjust all things in Him. Nondevotees cannot understand the Lord’s inconceivable energy, and consequently for them it is said that He is beyond the range of conceivable expression. The author of the Brahma-sūtras accepts this fact and says, śrutes tu śabda-mūlatvāt: the Supreme Personality of Godhead, being inconceivable to an ordinary man, can be understood only through the evidence of the Vedic injunctions. The Skanda Purāṇa confirms, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet: “Matters inconceivable to a common man should not be a subject for argument.” We find very wonderful qualities even in such material things as jewels and drugs. Indeed, their qualities often appear inconceivable. Therefore if we do not attribute inconceivable potencies to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we cannot establish His supremacy. It is because of these inconceivable potencies that the glories of the Lord have always been accepted as difficult to understand..... http://causelessmercy.com/Adi5.1.htm purport by Srila Prabhupada

 

I will take leave now...there is alot in all these posts for deep contemplation. Thank you for your patience Bart.

[Bart Happel 0]

Dear Bija and Jeffster,

 

I accept that the devotional path can lead the devotee to knowledge of the Absolute. But this also implies that the Absolute can be known at a profound level. Nevertheless, enlightened devotees appear to be unable to clearly convey or formalize this knowledge. I propose that the model I’m referring to may be such a formalization. I must admit, however, that even though the model can be implemented and run (simulated) on a computer, and its simple, strictly singular (monistic) basic principle can be observed to produce or generate infinite fractal structures (forms) in perceptual planes or dynamical phase-projections, the model is still difficult to understand without any prior knowledge of complex nonlinear (chaotic) systems in general. However, the model can be explained and understood by everyone, devotees and non-devotees, enlightened souls and atheists. When, in addition, the dynamics of the model will prove to resolve current 'quantum physical weirdness', it may greatly contribute to God-consciousness, exactly because of its monistic non-dual basic principle.

 

By the way, perhaps the following explanation sheds some more light on this monism/dualism controversy:

 

 

There is no duality in Nirguna and Saguna Brahman (Ch. 12 of the Gita) and He is undivided. These basically are two different functional and phenomenal aspects of the same reality, which incidentally are misinterpreted as duality or opposites. As far as various schools being confused regarding this (so-called duality), it is because of their own doing.

 

They assign all very specific Saguna characteristics to their personal deity (who even supposedly existed -- like in the case of Krishna) and that is well and good. But then they also want the same (historical) deity to validate the terms of Nirguna aspect, but that is not all that easy to do philosophically for a personal deity, who can be worshipped and even is considered a historical figure. The whole concept of Nirguna-Saguna basically breaks down if assumed strictly in the narrow opposing sense of unattributed-attributed.

 

To get around this confusion, they use the word Purushottama or Bhagawan for their deity assuming that the deity is Purushottama or Bhagawan. They mistakenly assume that Purushottama or Bhagawan combine both Nirguna and Saguna aspects of Brahman into a single entity, and thus there would be no problem of the so-called duality encountered in the case of Brahman. It is just a self-deception and self-serving proposition on their part. Note that Purushottama (meaning, supreme person in the saguna sense and supreme soul in the nirguna) and Bhagawan (bestower of good luck or bhaga, and simply meaning God) are as Brahmanical (Nirguna and Saguna) as the other names (Gita: Ch. 10). As indicated above, Nirguna and Saguna are simply functional and phenomenal aspects and not a duality representing the opposites. It is more on the lines of body-soul matrix for a jiva.

 

Krishna (whether or not the historical figure) similarly can be considered speaking in the Gita in first person as (or in the capacity of) Brahman (both Nirguna and Saguna -- like in Ch. 12). There basically is no point in calling him other than Brahman, such as Purushottama or Bhagawan, and hoping that the problem of ill-conceived duality would go away that way.

 

Note that Nirguna and Saguna are dual (two) aspects of Brahman and nothing else (like simultaneous mutually opposites). In comprehending and describing Brahman in every essence, these categories or classes basically complement each other (i.e. like having the incomprehensible or Nirguna along with the comprehensible or Saguna) rather than contradict, confuse or negate each other.

 

 

By: Dr. Subhash C. Sharma

 

 

Kind regards, Bart