caste goswamis

[Amlesh]

 

"Dog-dung philosophy?" Hmmm. Would theist like me to provide quotes by the Six Gosvamis (aka Rupa, Sanatana, Gopala-Bhatta) of the chaitanya sampradAya stating very explicitly that one must be born into the right family as a prerequisite for becoming a guru?

 

Oh no, we can't have that. They are respectable gurus when they agree with us, but when they disagree with us, then they are just "Indian religionists" and we should feel sorry for them....

 

The solution lies in the proper understanding to the problem.

 

It's true that being a Brahmana is not something determined by birth, color, country of origin etc...

 

It depends on the nature of an individual.

 

However it's also true that we cannot set up some factory or academic institution to produce Swamis, just like that... It sounds too easy, as if Alice in Wonderland.

 

It depends on many criterias, thorough testing and investigation should be made before initiating someone.

 

The proper functionning of this world depends on Brahmanas, if they themselves are corrupted, what will happen to other ordinay people.

[Kulapavana]

The objection to Bhaktisiddhanta introducing sannyasa to Gaudiya Vaishnavism is just as unfair as the objection that traditional GV parivars (the so called caste goswamis) are bogus.

 

We can clearly see that in both cases the position of a sannyasi, or goswami, can be abused for material profit, or taken up by unqualified person. 90% of people who received sannyasa from Prabhupada fell down, often with disastrous consequences for his movement. Saraswatas have no right to criticize the entire system of traditional parivars, because the system they introduced is very far from being perfect, or even clearly better than the one they so strongly criticize.

[raghu]

 

The solution lies in the proper understanding to the problem.

 

It's true that being a Brahmana is not something determined by birth, color, country of origin etc...

 

It depends on the nature of an individual.

 

However it's also true that we cannot set up some factory or academic institution to produce Swamis, just like that... It sounds too easy, as if Alice in Wonderland.

 

It depends on many criterias, thorough testing and investigation should be made before initiating someone.

 

The proper functionning of this world depends on Brahmanas, if they themselves are corrupted, what will happen to other ordinay people.

 

This is all getting off on a tangent.

 

The point is that some self-proclaimed, wannabe Vaishnavas think that birth has no bearing on one's varna. They even went so far as to call it - "dog dung" philosophy.

 

I can prove that this is wrong with reference to the very texts authored by Vaishnava gurus whom those wannabes claim to be following. Question: is it still "dog dung philosophy" if Sanatana Gosvami says it?

 

Sensible and on-topic answer would be appreciated.

[Kulapavana]

 

The point is that some self-proclaimed, wannabe Vaishnavas think that birth has no bearing on one's varna.

 

Since taking birth in a particular setting is not accidental, of course it has bearing on one's varna. Birth is also related to a particular upbringing. Yet ultimately varna is dependent on guna and karma - Chatur-varnyam maya srishtam guna-karma-vibhagashah [bg. 4.13]

[shvu]

And for the 100th time...

 

The solution lies in the proper understanding to the problem.

It's true that being a Brahmana is not something determined by birth, color, country of origin etc...

It depends on the nature of an individual.

No, it does not. That is just another Hare Krishna concoction based on no evidence other than “some Bengali Babu said so”.

 

It depends on many criterias, thorough testing and investigation should be made before initiating someone.

And we know how it turned out in the case of Prabhupada. It was a major failure as everyone knows.

It is funny that in spite of such glaringly obvious evidence, you still persist with your nonsense. But then having seen your earlier posts, perhaps I am being unfair expecting anything better from you.

Cheers

[Nrsinghadev]

 

 

[raghu]

 

Since taking birth in a particular setting is not accidental, of course it has bearing on one's varna. Birth is also related to a particular upbringing. Yet ultimately varna is dependent on guna and karma - Chatur-varnyam maya srishtam guna-karma-vibhagashah [bg. 4.13]

 

Dog-dung philosophy alert! You should be ashamed of yourself. The mere fact that you said birth has some bearing on varna implies your elitist, casteist, racist, and every other -ist in existence belief that birth makes varna and excuses one from performing any duties. This means you are a Hindu supremacist, an Indian religionst, blah blah blah, and you don't know the real "essence" of spirituality, which of course can only be given to you by former hallucinogen-using (but non-initiated) Vaishnavas (who are not really Vaisnavas, just people who claim they want to be Vaishnavas - hence, their qualification to speak and override anything you say)!

[Kulapavana]

 

Dog-dung philosophy alert! You should be ashamed of yourself. The mere fact that you said birth has some bearing on varna implies your elitist, casteist, racist, and every other -ist in existence belief that birth makes varna and excuses one from performing any duties. This means you are a Hindu supremacist, an Indian religionst, blah blah blah, ...

 

Guilty as charged!

Perhaps if I study some more I will elevate myself to the camel dung level. Dog dung is truly useless. It is worthless as a fertilizer, and worthless as a fuel. Smells real nasty too. Dog dung charge is the ultimate put-down. Compared to that, camel dung position is extremely elevated

 

But seriously...

 

What I find very inconsistent in our movement is a belief that with a proper education you can turn a sudra into a brahmana, but somehow the women should only get minimal education to keep them 'where they belong'

As if the examples of Gangamata Goswamini or Jahnava Ma were not relevant in the present society...

[raghu]

 

Guilty as charged!

Perhaps if I study some more I will elevate myself to the camel dung level. Dog dung is truly useless. It is worthless as a fertilizer, and worthless as a fuel. Smells real nasty too. Dog dung charge is the ultimate put-down. Compared to that, camel dung position is extremely elevated

 

If it's any consolation, there are worse charges that theist wasn't creative enough to think of. After all, you could be the patch of grass that the dog dung falls upon....

 

 

What I find very inconsistent in our movement is a belief that with a proper education you can turn a sudra into a brahmana, but somehow the women should only get minimal education to keep them 'where they belong'

As if the examples of Gangamata Goswamini or Jahnava Ma were not relevant in the present society...

 

To be very frank, many social views advocated by modern Hare Krishnas are inconsistent and self-contradictory. On one hand people should be raised as brahmanas. Yet on the other hand you can make brahmanas out of shudras or worse. Then again being a Vaishnava is better than being a brahmana. Then again you can be in any station of life and still be a Vaishnava. And the list goes on and on...

 

Why all these social ambitions? Just accept the birth you have and perform bhakti according to the scriptural rules. Trying to be something you are not is never recommended by scripture. Arjuna did not have to become a brahmana to please Lord Krishna, did he? While I do occasionally meet a Hare Krishna convert who comes across as saintly, one must objectively acknowledge that the social experiment of creating brahmanas out of non-brahmanas is an unmitigated disaster. Look how many lives have been destroyed by false iskcon gurus wearing saffron robes.

[radha_das]

Raghu Could u provide me few quotations from Gaudiya scriptures which claims that caste brahmin are right. it would be highly appreciated.

[Amlesh]

And since when did I say birth is not an important criteria????

 

But it is not also a mandatory criteria.

 

Go and learn the term Svadharma and then come to comment.

 

To hell with your stupid philosophies...

 

I do have an example, Parashram was born is a Brahman family but turned out to be a kshatriya and also Vishwamitra was born in a Kshatriya family but became a Brahmana.

 

Dude, you are all Vaishnavas; behave like one.

[theist]

The point is when the system of varnashrama is operating optimally one's birth family will be compatable with one's previously acquired gunas and prarabdha karma.

 

Thus birth is seen not as causative of one being considered a brahmana but rather the effect of one's having developed the qualifications to take such a refined birth.

 

Birth is a result of qualities obtained and karma. Number one always comes before number two.

 

To think that one becomes a brahmana by virtue of which womb he pops out of should be easily seen as too superfical a worldview for debate but alas in Kali-yuga many with a lower grasp on spiritual matters take birth in the family of so-called brahmanas and then assume they are brahmanas also when really they are just so-called brahmanas themselves. This is the age of quarrel and confusion afterall.

 

Hope I didn't offend any brahmanas out there but then real brahmanas will exhibit the quality of humility whereas the brahmana by birth crowd will be turning red in the face about now and feel slighted by yet another uppity outcaste type.

 

"How dare they talk so?"

 

Careful or I'll come cast my shadow upon you.

 

Better we just see everyone as fellow spiritsouls, part and parcel of the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna, and not be too bothered by all these lesser considerations.

[Amlesh]

 

The point is when the system of varnashrama is operating optimally one's birth family will be compatable with one's previously acquired gunas and prarabdha karma.

 

Thus birth is seen not as causative of one being considered a brahmana but rather the effect of one's having developed the qualifications to take such a refined birth.

 

Birth is a result of qualities obtained and karma. Number one always comes before number two.

 

To think that one becomes a brahmana by virtue of which womb he pops out of should be easily seen as too superfical a worldview for debate but alas in Kali-yuga many with a lower grasp on spiritual matters take birth in the family of so-called brahmanas and then assume they are brahmanas also when really they are just so-called brahmanas themselves. This is the age of quarrel and confusion afterall.

 

Hope I didn't offend any brahmanas out there but then real brahmanas will exhibit the quality of humility whereas the brahmana by birth crowd will be turning red in the face about now and feel slighted by yet another uppity outcaste type.

 

"How dare they talk so?"

 

Careful or I'll come cast my shadow upon you.

 

Better we just see everyone as fellow spiritsouls, part and parcel of the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna, and not be too bothered by all these lesser considerations.

 

You have a more refine and cooler way of putting things.

I hope someday I'll be able to learn that art from you.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

 

I do have an example, Parashram was born is a Brahman family but turned out to be a kshatriya and also Vishwamitra was born in a Kshatriya family but became a Brahmana.

.

 

Pardon me but your example of Parshuram is well off, he never became a Kshatriya but got rid off Kshatriya 21 times.

 

Vishvamitra is a very rare example.

 

Vidura a great mahatma, was still known as dasi putra, ones identity is always established by ones birth always has been, ones birth is not an accident it is based on guna karma.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Amlesh]

 

Pranam

 

 

 

Pardon me but your example of Parshuram is well off, he never became a Kshatriya but got rid off Kshatriya 21 times.

 

Vishvamitra is a very rare example.

 

Vidura a great mahatma, was still known as dasi putra, ones identity is always established by ones birth always has been, ones birth is not an accident it is based on guna karma.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Really surprising from your part.

 

It's an example often cited by greats.

 

About the rare example; it's really rare from your part to make such useless comment.

 

Concerning Vidura he was subjected to the same misinterpretation of Varna System as today. Truth he only knew.

 

I do admit that ones birth is not an accident it is based on guna karma, but that does not mean it is a mandatory criteria.

[theist]

 

I do admit that ones birth is not an accident it is based on guna karma, but that does not mean it is a mandatory criteria.

 

Exactly. What is the point of arguing further. But they no doubt will.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

Really surprising from your part.

 

It's an example often cited by greats.

 

About the rare example; it's really rare from your part to make such useless comment.

 

Concerning Vidura he was subjected to the same misinterpretation of Varna System as today. Truth he only knew.

 

I do admit that ones birth is not an accident it is based on guna karma, but that does not mean it is a mandatory criteria.

 

I don’t know why you find my stand on varna a surprise and useless but you are entitled to your opinion. Vishvamitra example is the best known but as to Parsuram I can not except, he never aspired to become a kstriya, he simply made the world without them. I have never heard, until today that he changed his varna or any one called him a kstriya.

Even for Vishvamitra,simply put his birth status is still there, he is still refered as kstriya who became Brahmrishi, he achieved that after a very long time doing tapsya where else someone becomes a Brahmin through a medium of tape recoding is really laughable.

Vidura Maharaj never was disturbed by his position and there never was a misinterpretation of varna in his case, he belonged in kings household yet his dasi putra status was well known.

No less a personality as Arjun called Karan a sutputra because of his apparent birth even though his Kstriya ability was well known. And even after heinous murder by Asvasthama Dropadi called him a bramana.

This days in the name of equality every thing goes and the real understanding of varna is clouded and the baramans are blamed for all the ills of India.

There can not be any better criteria but birth and death to sort out the varna of any individual fair and square, without any ambiguity.

 

However,

In saMnyAsa itself, there is no distinction, and the saMnyAsa dIkshA involves the renunciation of varNa and every previous Ashrama ~ indeed, saMnyAsa involves the renunciation of attachment to the three worlds!

 

The highest knowledge of saMnyAsAshrama declares that all men are equal in the eye of god, and that varNa, Ashrama, and ultimately even dharma, are superfluous constructs. But this esoteric wisdom has unfortunately become exoteric dogma in some non-brAhmaNa circles, and the dismissal of varNAshrama dharma is especially favored by aspirants who were born without dvija varNa (by Sarbhnga)

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Amlesh]

 

Pranam

 

 

 

I don’t know why you find my stand on varna a surprise and useless but you are entitled to your opinion. Vishvamitra example is the best known but as to Parsuram I can not except, he never aspired to become a kstriya, he simply made the world without them. I have never heard, until today that he changed his varna or any one called him a kstriya.

Even for Vishvamitra,simply put his birth status is still there, he is still refered as kstriya who became Brahmrishi, he achieved that after a very long time doing tapsya where else someone becomes a Brahmin through a medium of tape recoding is really laughable.

Vidura Maharaj never was disturbed by his position and there never was a misinterpretation of varna in his case, he belonged in kings household yet his dasi putra status was well known.

No less a personality as Arjun called Karan a sutputra because of his apparent birth even though his Kstriya ability was well known. And even after heinous murder by Asvasthama Dropadi called him a bramana.

This days in the name of equality every thing goes and the real understanding of varna is clouded and the baramans are blamed for all the ills of India.

There can not be any better criteria but birth and death to sort out the varna of any individual fair and square, without any ambiguity.

 

However,

In saMnyAsa itself, there is no distinction, and the saMnyAsa dIkshA involves the renunciation of varNa and every previous Ashrama ~ indeed, saMnyAsa involves the renunciation of attachment to the three worlds!

 

The highest knowledge of saMnyAsAshrama declares that all men are equal in the eye of god, and that varNa, Ashrama, and ultimately even dharma, are superfluous constructs. But this esoteric wisdom has unfortunately become exoteric dogma in some non-brAhmaNa circles, and the dismissal of varNAshrama dharma is especially favored by aspirants who were born without dvija varNa (by Sarbhnga)

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I admit about Parsuram, but that of Vishwamitra is a fact. So still my point stands.

 

Concerning being a sudra putra shows us the evergreen misintepretation of Varna System.

 

Even though a Sudra Putra, still Karna was on the Battle Field following his instinct.

[srikanthdk71]

Hello, People??? When Will You Stop Living And Glorifying The Past. Make A Bright Future For Yourself. Realise Who You Are. What Is Your Purpose Of Life? Glorify The Lord That Is Within You If You Are Successful In Not Looking For Him Outside You. Live In The Present.

 

Break The Tradition Which Had Meaning In Its Time. Make Your Own Tradition By Which You Can Realise

[Amlesh]

 

Hello, People??? When Will You Stop Living And Glorifying The Past. Make A Bright Future For Yourself. Realise Who You Are. What Is Your Purpose Of Life? Glorify The Lord That Is Within You If You Are Successful In Not Looking For Him Outside You. Live In The Present.

 

Break The Tradition Which Had Meaning In Its Time. Make Your Own Tradition By Which You Can Realise

 

The Bhagvata Doctrine is not tagged by the time factor. It stood in the past, it stands in the present and will stand in the future.

 

Your comments are good for forwarding via mails and texting via mobile phones.

 

The Lord should not only be realised from within but from all sides. Read the Gita well before posting any of your comments.

[vraja1]

 

Yah but if you understood scripture you would know that we forget after taking birth again. The corruption of caste brahminism is a commonplace of Indian history. Do you need examples?

 

I already understand that we forget after taking birth. But between death and the next birth, there is a period where we are aware of the life we just lived.

[theist]

 

 

 

 

GURU BOOK REBUTTAL

 

 

(Case against Guru Nirnaya Dipika and response by Nanda Kumar Prabhu)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following thread was downloaded from

 

 

“Hindu-religion.com”

 

 

CASE AGAINST GURU NIRNAYA DIPIKA AND RESPONSE

 

 

From <hindu-religion.net>

 

 

 

The Sarasvata Parampara and the Caste-Brahmana Guru

by Tridandi Svami Bhakti Vijnana Giri

(disciple of Srila B.G. Narasingha Maharaja)

(Mr. Giri is a disciple of an American born Caucasian Guru)

Brahmana Guru

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

<!--[endif]-->Recently our attention was drawn to a small pamphlet entitled 'Guru Nirnaya Dipika' written by Mahant Krsna Balarama Svami, who considers himself to be a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada. In 'Guru Nirnaya Dipika' the author has strongly advocated that only a Vaisnava born in a brahmana family has the right to initiate disciples and confer diksa-mantras to them. Coincidentally, the author just happens to be born in a brahmana family.

The author has gone to great lengths to prove his theory that the brahmana caste has a monopoly on imparting spiritual knowledge and has sifted through many sastras, extracting those particular verses that help substantiate his philosophy. However, despite his creating a facade of erudition, his essay is fraught with serious philosophical errors that are not in harmony with the opinions of the previous acaryas of our sampradaya.

Article continue here:

http://www.krsna.org/gurubook.htm

[raghu]

 

Raghu Could u provide me few quotations from Gaudiya scriptures which claims that caste brahmin are right. it would be highly appreciated.

 

Radha_das,

 

I did not say that "caste brahmin are right." I'm not sure what that means. What I said is that there is evidence in the Gaudiya writings that proper birth in a brahmin family is a prerequisite to becoming a brahmin or even a guru. There are such statements in Hari-Bhakti Vilas which is the writing of Sanatana Gosvami, the foremost disciple of Chaithanya. I can get the quotes when I return home... but the point is, when I post them, will it still be considered "dog-dung philosophy" or "mundane Hinduism" by the quasi-Vaishnava community here? Because frankly, as I have pointed out many times in the past, the so-called Vaishnavas of this forum like ghari, theist, cbrahma, et. al. have many wrong ideas about "Vedic culture" and "Vaishnavism" that are not even supported by their own acharyas.