Is there no free will?

[cbrahma 0]

 

I've never said the other way round. It is the way I see it also. Maybe I was not that clear in my explanations.

 

I am also a student of Srila Prabhupad.

 

But the question of Choice, I rather see it in the Long Run.

 

Why is there hell to punish sin, if there is no choice. No choice- no responsibility.

[Amlesh 1]

 

Why is there hell to punish sin, if there is no choice. No choice- no responsibility.

 

The stay in Hell also is temporary. But once you've serving Krishna, there is no turning Back (Back to Godhead).

[cbrahma 0]

The stay in Hell also is temporary. But once you've serving Krishna, there is no turning Back (Back to Godhead).

Only human beings go to hell - because of their responsiblity in sinning. - Which is because of choice.

[Amlesh 1]

 

Only human beings go to hell - because of their responsiblity in sinning. - Which is because of choice.

 

Being encaged in an Animal Body also is like paying for some sort of sin.

Being everywhere except Vaikunth means being in Hell only, even if we are situated in the Topmost material Planet.

 

What is the consequence of choosing, it is always accompanied by some condition, in your example it was Hell. If we are really free, then it should be devoid of all conditions.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Being encaged in an Animal Body also is like paying for some sort of sin.

Being everywhere except Vaikunth means being in Hell only, even if we are situated in the Topmost material Planet.

 

What is the consequence of choosing, it is always accompanied by some condition, in your example it was Hell. If we are really free, then it should be devoid of all conditions.[/quote]

False. Our choices can be constrained and still be free within those limitations. That is freedom can be more or less. A prisoner can choose to behave properly and reform or continue to behave badly and remain in prison. What is the point of learning about spiritual science if we do not have the freedom to practice it?

Of course, once we've degraded our consciousness to the point of losing our free will - that is also a punishment. Again it is the result of the misuse of freedom. It all comes back to that. We make choices in the human form and those choices determine the direction of our destiny. Fatalism is not a spiritually enllightened philosophy.

[Amlesh 1]

 

False. Our choices can be constrained and still be free within those limitations. That is freedom can be more or less. A prisoner can choose to behave properly and reform or continue to behave badly and remain in prison. What is the point of learning about spiritual science if we do not have the freedom to practice it?

Of course, once we've degraded our consciousness to the point of losing our free will - that is also a punishment. Again it is the result of the misuse of freedom. It all comes back to that. We make choices in the human form and those choices determine the direction of our destiny. Fatalism is not a spiritually enllightened philosophy.

 

Don't enclose your thoughts within limitations.

Think in a broader sense.

 

I've said earlier, choices does exist but it is like planting flower in the sky. I also said, it exist but only for the ignorant but not for the wise.

 

Instead of using the word Karma, you are using Destiny.

 

You've responded the way I wanted, that is, punishment and rewards according our Karma.... But tell me who regulates the Law of Karma.

 

Even if a choice is made, whether serving Krishna and not serving Krishna, you wil meet Krishna or his energy in some way or the other.

 

Choice:

1. Serve Krishna --- Obtain Bhakti by Krishna.

 

2. Not Serve Krishna --- Face Maya, energy of Krishna.

 

In short run there is choice.

In the long run, do we really have any choice.

[bija 0]

If we are really free, then it should be devoid of all conditions. by amlesh

I think sometimes Amlesh the modern world with its basis on productivity may fear this philosophical statement. For the simple reason that if we are not contstrained by result there will be no motivation for betterment.

But to argue against that fear I would say, in a world where ecological-systems are sick, mass consumerism is producing its own reactions, and socio-health problems such as depression are on the increase (what not to say of madness:P)....maybe a degree of self satisfied consciousness can be a panacea for this worldy ill....

I say this because there will always be adversity in the material condition, even if we have a certain degree of free will. The bind of material blocks and constraints will always be there. Even to the point of sicknesses and deaths. So if we are not dependant upon conditions for our internal peace, at least then we have a foundation for emancipation, happiness - or in the highest ideal love of God without looking for one's own benefit. Without being dependant upon some illusory perfect condition (environment).

[Amlesh 1]

Yes, you are perfectly right Bija, they would certainly fear. But there is another reality, there is no need to fear, this very world is not a place where we would expect all people to learn such facts and it has been validated in the Gita (sa mahatma sudurlabaha).

 

The sign of ignorance among the mass is not a new issue, it has always been there.

 

For the chosen one, he/she 'll need to learn the truth and carry on with the supreme's order.

[Malati dasi 0]

Beggar: How minute is the minuteness of the free will of the jiva? How great is the greatness of the free will of the infinite supreme controller? How can we measure infinite or infinitesimal? Who are we to measure anyway by our limited mind and senses and what Srila Saraswati Thakur calls our "puppy brains"?

 

Amlesh: Don't enclose your thoughts within limitations.

Think in a broader sense.

I've said earlier, choices do exist but it is like planting flower in the sky. I also said, it exist but only for the ignorant but not for the wise.

Instead of using the word Karma, you are using Destiny.

You've responded the way I wanted, that is, punishment and rewards according our Karma.... But tell me who regulates the Law of Karma.

Even if a choice is made, whether serving Krishna and not serving Krishna, you wil meet Krishna or his energy in some way or the other.

Choice:

1. Serve Krishna --- Obtain Bhakti by Krishna.

2. Not Serve Krishna --- Face Maya, energy of Krishna.

In short run there is choice.

In the long run, do we really have any choice.

 

Amlesh: If we are really free, then it should be devoid of all conditions.

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Theist quoted:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Bg 18.63 - Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Malati dasi's comments:

Beggar, very good point.

 

Amlesh, that was very intelligent.

 

Bija, keep reflecting it's food for our soul.

 

Theist , about your quote. Srila Prabhupad in his purport says: ... As you like you may act.-- indicate that God does not interfere with the little independence of the living entity.

 

However, we can further understand that quote by reading .

BG 18.13 O mighty-armed Arjuna, according to the Vedānta there are five causes for the accomplishment of all action. Now learn of these from Me.

SP's purport: ... The ultimate control is invested in the Supersoul. As stated in the BG, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah he is engaging eveyone in certain activities by reminding him of his past actions.

BG 18.14: The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many different kinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Supersoul — these are the five factors of action.

SP's purport: ... The word adhiṣṭhānam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring about the results of activity and is therefore known as kartā, "the doer." That the soul is the knower and the doer is stated in the śruti. Eṣa hi draṣṭā sraṣṭā (Praśna Upaniṣad 4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtra by the verses jño 'ta eva (2.3.18) and kartā śāstrārthavattvāt (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the senses the soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. But all one's activities depend on the will of the Supersoul, who is seated within the heart as a friend. The Supreme Lord is the supercause. Under these circumstances, he who is acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the direction of the Supersoul situated within the heart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness are not ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will, the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead

 

BG 18.15: Whatever right or wrong action a man performs by body, mind or speech is caused by these five factors.

BG 18.16: Therefore one who thinks himself the only doer, not considering the five factors, is certainly not very intelligent and cannot see things as they are.

SP's comments: A foolish person cannot understand that the Supersoul is sitting as a friend within and conducting his actions. Although the material causes are the place, the worker, the endeavor and the senses, the final cause is the Supreme, the Personality of Godhead. Therefore, one should see not only the four material causes but the supreme efficient cause as well. One who does not see the Supreme thinks himself to be the doer.

 

WEll, our free will is very small as to be negligible.

 

[Amlesh 1]

 

However, we can further understand that quote by reading .

BG 18.13 O mighty-armed Arjuna, according to the Vedānta there are five causes for the accomplishment of all action. Now learn of these from Me.

SP's purport: ... The ultimate control is invested in the Supersoul. As stated in the BG, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah he is engaging eveyone in certain activities by reminding him of his past actions.

BG 18.14: The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many different kinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Supersoul — these are the five factors of action.

SP's purport: ... The word adhiṣṭhānam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring about the results of activity and is therefore known as kartā, "the doer." That the soul is the knower and the doer is stated in the śruti. Eṣa hi draṣṭā sraṣṭā (Praśna Upaniṣad 4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtra by the verses jño 'ta eva (2.3.18) and kartā śāstrārthavattvāt (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the senses the soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. But all one's activities depend on the will of the Supersoul, who is seated within the heart as a friend. The Supreme Lord is the supercause. Under these circumstances, he who is acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the direction of the Supersoul situated within the heart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness are not ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will, the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead

 

BG 18.15: Whatever right or wrong action a man performs by body, mind or speech is caused by these five factors.

BG 18.16: Therefore one who thinks himself the only doer, not considering the five factors, is certainly not very intelligent and cannot see things as they are.

SP's comments: A foolish person cannot understand that the Supersoul is sitting as a friend within and conducting his actions. Although the material causes are the place, the worker, the endeavor and the senses, the final cause is the Supreme, the Personality of Godhead. Therefore, one should see not only the four material causes but the supreme efficient cause as well. One who does not see the Supreme thinks himself to be the doer.

 

WEll, our free will is very small as to be negligible.

 

 

Hats off. Very intelligent from your part.

 

That's why Krishna said:

 

1. The soul never does, actions are carried out by material nature.

2. No one kills and no one dies.

3. You are compelled to act according to your nature.

4.........

[cbrahma 0]

 

If we are really free, then it should be devoid of all conditions. by amlesh

 

I think sometimes Amlesh the modern world with its basis on productivity may fear this philosophical statement. For the simple reason that if we are not contstrained by result there will be no motivation for betterment.

But to argue against that fear I would say, in a world where ecological-systems are sick, mass consumerism is producing its own reactions, and socio-health problems such as depression are on the increase (what not to say of madness:P)....maybe a degree of self satisfied consciousness can be a panacea for this worldy ill....

I say this because there will always be adversity in the material condition, even if we have a certain degree of free will. The bind of material blocks and constraints will always be there. Even to the point of sicknesses and deaths. So if we are not dependant upon conditions for our internal peace, at least then we have a foundation for emancipation, happiness - or in the highest ideal love of God without looking for one's own benefit. Without being dependant upon some illusory perfect condition (environment).

this is philosophical problem, not a psychological one. There is no fear factor , for myself anyways. It simply is not true that freedom has to be unconditional to exist. There are many examples of conditional freedom. The 'modern' materialists are prefectly happy with the notion of our being conditioned and there being no free will at all.

[cbrahma 0]

Everyone who agrees with us is intelligent.

 

 

MISUSE OF FREE WILL

"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

The above verse not only says that fall-down is due to misuse of independence but also clearly says WHERE that misusing is done, namely on the spiritual platform and not on a concocted marginal plane, i.e. "by misuse of the individual independence of the spiritual platform". In other words, when the living entity on the spiritual platform misuses his individual independence, it falls down to the material platform. The above verse does not mention a third plane from where the choosing is done.

It is amazing how many devotees argue against Srila Prabhupada although he says we can not argue about it.

 

 

If independence is so minute as to be neglible then so is the chance of fall down at any time.

 

 

Prabhupāda: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda / Rene Descartes

DESCARTES.HAY

 

Devotee: He says that free will can be essentially eliminated. He says you no longer have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. That is another foolishness.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda / B. F. Skinner

SKINNER.SYA

 

Swedish guest: Is there free will?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will. Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom. Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible. You are subordinate. Your freedom is subordinate to God’s freedom. Therefore if you misuse your freedom, then you become punishable. The government gives you freedom, but if you misuse your freedom, if you violate the laws, then you are criminal. Yes?

 

 

 

Nothing Prabhupada says implies that freeom becomes negligible or disappears.

[bhaktajan 0]

Sri Isopanisad Mantra 4 Purport:

. . . Every part and parcel of the Complete Whole is endowed with some particular energy to act according to the Lord’s will.

 

When the part-and-parcel living entity forgets his particular activities under the Lord’s will, he is considered to be in mäyä, illusion.

 

Thus from the very beginning Sri Isopanisad warns us to be very careful to play the part designated for us by the Lord.

 

This does not mean that the individual soul has no initiative of his own.

 

Because he is part and parcel of the Lord, he must partake of the initiative of the Lord as well.

 

When a person properly utilizes his initiative, or active nature,

with intelligence, understanding that everything is the Lord’s potency,

he can revive his original consciousness,

which was lost due to association with maya, the external energy. . . .

[bija 0]

So in that original consciousness is total freedom?

I have heard that the topmost devotee is free to act and not bound?

That such a soul does not have to conform to a stereotype?

 

Shrila Prabhupada inCc Adi 7.31-32 purport:

"Here is an important point. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to invent a way to capture the Mayavadis and others who did not take interest in the Krishna consciousness movement. This is the symptom of an acarya. An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krishna consciousness may be spread."

So in that original consciousness we are in yoga, harmony, purity....and free?

In the conditioned state we cannot understand that freedom of yoga, we see it as bound? When infact we falsely think we are free here (but actually bound at every step)?

If that original consciousness is 'pure love' there must be a dynamic of two to enhance the rasa.

 

Bound in love. This material world a reflection of that binding.

Hearing this, Shrimati Radharani said: “Sakhi. If you want to understand My love for Krishna then listen. Prema is so great that even the knowers of the Vedas cannot know it, nor others who claim to know it. Sakhi! One who teaches prema to an inquisitive person cannot know it, nor can their hearer know it. It’s all just imitation! Prema disappears before both the discriminate and indiscriminate person, but that pure-hearted soul who is free from discrimination and who is full of sacred greed, is able to approach the throne of natural love. That is shown through the lover’s activities, which are only dedicated to the happiness of the beloved. - Prema Samputa

[bija 0]

Yes cbrahma condition must still be there in full-self realization. The condition being to please Krsna.

As sadhaka's we are learning this way of love I feel. To please Guru by every thought, word, and deed.

Condition does remain. To enhance dynamic. Real service to devotees is to enhance that dynamic in their hearts by our words, thoughts, deeds etc. Then when we sense the joy of the other we feel bliss...this is pure bliss, to see another's eyes enliven upon seeing Krsna!

[cbrahma 0]

 

Yes cbrahma condition must still be there in full-self realization. The condition being to please Krsna.

As sadhaka's we are learning this way of love I feel. To please Guru by every thought, word, and deed.

Condition does remain. To enhance dynamic. Real service to devotees is to enhance that dynamic in their hearts by our words, thoughts, deeds etc. Then when we sense the joy of the other we feel bliss...this is pure bliss, to see another's eyes enliven upon seeing Krsna!

Even in the spiritual world the jiva's freedom is subordinate to Krsna. Absolute freedom only belongs to God.

[bija 0]

Even in the spiritual world the jiva's freedom is subordinate to Krsna. Absolute freedom only belongs to God. by cbrahma

I don't know the mysteries of Goloka Vrindavan cbrahma, to be honest.

By God's grace oneday, some of us may be introduced to the way of love (suddha-sattva).

 

How can we cultivate the humility and tolerance necessary to serve as a sadhaka? Presently, that I don't understand much about either...but I am fortunate to know my inadequacy. (we all sense that in ourselves)

 

That minute free-will hopefully will choose surrender. When things become spontaneous, maybe then we are close to Goloka.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Even in the spiritual world the jiva's freedom is subordinate to Krsna. Absolute freedom only belongs to God. by cbrahma

 

I don't know the mysteries of Goloka Vrindavan cbrahma, to be honest.

By God's grace oneday, some of us may be introduced to the way of love (suddha-sattva).

 

How can we cultivate the humility and tolerance necessary to serve as a sadhaka? Presently, that I don't understand much about either...but I am fortunate to know my inadequacy. (we all sense that in ourselves)

 

That minute free-will hopefully will choose surrender. When things become spontaneous, maybe then we are close to Goloka.

You should read Prabhupada's books. I'm not speaking from experience but simply from a pure devotee's teachings. That the jiva's freedom is subordinate to Krsna is no mystery. It is a philosophical necessity of the nature of the jiva's relationship to Krsna.