Kula-pavana:The Guru Debate Within Our Movement

[krsna 3]

The Guru Debate Within our Movement

BY: KULA-PAVANA DASA

 

Mar 27, USA (SUN) — I have been following the guru debate within our Movement for quite a few years now. Since I am involved in a day-to-day contact with both new and old devotees, as well as with people who are simply curious about our Movement, I would like to share a few observations related to this debate.

 

It seems to me that the tone, content, and form of the guru debate within our Movement are directly leading to an overall devaluation of the concept of guru in general, as well as to a marked decline in overall faith in the Krishna Consciousness process as presented to us by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Of course other events, such as the numerous fall downs of ISKCON gurus or their abuses of power, did not help in that regard. Still, the way we discuss the guru issue in our Movement has a lot to do with how people perceive the legitimacy of our Movement in general, as well as with how such regrettable fall-downs are understood by both devotees and those who merely observe our society.

 

Seems to me, that there are four basic camps in this discussion. What are they and what are their "sins" in this debate?

 

One camp -- those aligned with the GBC - usually presents a patronizing attitude of "we know better", mixed with a long history of withholding relevant information and frequent outright misrepresentation of the facts (read: telling lies), combined with habitual covering-up of serious abuses of power and substandard behavior of ISKCON gurus.

 

The ritvik camp "sins" are personified by the "Final Order thumpers" who basically call anybody involved in the current ISKCON power system a crook, traitor, liar and pretender. They unabashedly build great sand castles on single words or single sentences attributed to their guru. These are the two main camps.

 

The third camp consists of ex- ISKCON devotees who took shelter of Gaudiya Vaishnavas from post-Gaudiya Matha organizations or those representing traditional Gaudiya parivars. This camp often looks with complete disdain at the first two groups, considering both of them to be apa-sampradayas of the worst sort.

 

The fourth camp is those devotees who do not care very much for debating such issues and who do not have a clearly formed opinion about which party is right. Their "sin" is often just being passive when it comes to understanding and addressing one of the most important issues facing Lord Caitanya's movement today.

 

The good news is that despite all the accusations, mud slinging, shoddy logic, out of context, twisted and/or contradictory quotations often used in these guru debates, people are still interested in hearing from a spiritual authority. The bad news is that people usually do not look to our movement to find that authority.

 

Many former devotees have completely lost faith in the process Srila Prabhupada brought West with such effort and self-sacrifice, to a large extent due to the way devotees conduct themselves. It is a fact that people tend to judge the guru by observing the quality of his disciples. For example, if the disciples claim that their guru's words are to be the 'law books for mankind for the next 10,000 years', they better be able to at least agree among themselves as to what that law is saying. Otherwise nobody will take them seriously.

 

My plea to you, dear devotees, who debate the guru issues in public:

 

Please act like true Vaishnavas and cultured human beings so you will be seen as a credit to your guru's greatness and an asset to his mission. Please study the issues you debate in the way our acharyas recommended and please listen to the opposing arguments like it is customary in a philosophical debate (as opposed to a common quarrel).

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Your servant

Kula-pavana dasa

[suchandra 1]

Good points to this rather complex situation of four disunited camps - posted by Madhudvisa - 28 March 2008

 

 

Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three executive directors. The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change." (Srila Prabhupada's will)

What was the system of management when Srila Prabhupada was physically present? How did the temples run? How did new devotees get trained-up and initiated? How did the system of authority work in ISKCON?

"I am very glad to note that you are seeing that the devotees are maintaining the devotional practices. This is the secret to success.

Therefore I am stressing it. And, if you also stress it and show yourself as an ideal Vaisnava, then you are my representative in fullness. We are not after titles and designations. Lord Caitanya made it a principle that we must teach by personal example. This is what I have tried to do. So if all of you my disciples do this, then the future of our movement will be glorious." (74-10-31 Letter: Hrdayananda)

Srila Prabhupada's management system for ISKCON is that he trained-up representatives who would then act on his behalf all over the world as Temple Presidents, GBCs, sannyasis and even regular devotees. In this way, although Srila Prabhupada was only one man, he could simultaneously preach all over the world through his representatives and his books. This is Srila Prabhupada's management system for ISKCON and it should not have changed.

("The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change...")

"You have done very good by staying in N.Y. under the guidance of Sriman Brahmananda. In your last letter you proposed to come here, but Krishna has given you good counsel that instead of coming here, you have stopped at N.Y. and expended the passage money for temple expenditures. It is very good. IT IS AS GOOD TO SEE BRAHMANANDA BECAUSE HE IS MY REPRESENTATIVE, AND HE CAN INFORM YOU EVERYTHING WHICH I COULD HAVE DONE BY MEETING YOU.

Anyway, please act under the guidance of Brahmananda, so long I am not able to see you, and probably it will be possible to see you in the month of April next, when I am going to N.Y. I thank you once more for your service spirit to Lord Krishna, and I am sure He will bestow upon you more and more service spirit." (68-02-20 Letter: Robert)

"The thing is discipline can not be observed unless there is obedience. AS YOU ARE OBEDIENT TO ME, YOU SHOULD BE SIMILARLY OBEDIENT TO MY REPRESENTATIVE. Your statement about Brahmananda that he is a wonderful devotee is 100% agreed by me. He is in charge of the New York center, and, therefore, if proper obedience is not given to him it will be impossible for him to manage the affairs of the temple. Under the circumstances, the discrepancies you have observed in the temple may be referred to him, and he is quite reasonable, and will handle the matter with the respective devotees. Please don't you take any direct actions because it will cause disruption. You are a very talented boy, and I have every confidence in you, so I hope you will do this and oblige. (69-02-07 Letter: Nara-narayana)

In these quotes we find the key to Srila Prabhupada's transcendental management system for ISKCON. We can see that as early as 1968 Prabhupada had already appointed "representatives of the acarya," and he is already saying, "it is as good to see my representative as me."

Srila Prabhupada was training devotees and empowering them to act as his representatives and in this way they got the strength and purity to attract new devotees, to manage the temples and to preach. Srila Prabhupada developed the entire "International Society For Krishna Consciousness" from absolutely nothing to a huge, powerful, revolutionary world-wide spiritual movement in just a few years by using this simple management system. He trained disciples then empowered them to act as his representatives. In turn these devotees attracted new devotees and trained them also to become SRILA PRABHUPADA'S REPRESENTATIVES.

This feeling of being Srila Prabhupada's representative was all-pervasive in ISKCON. The book distributors were also conscious they were Srila Prabhupada's representatives. And any devotee who sincerely acted in this way, following the principles and Srila Prabhupada's instructions, was empowered by Srila Prabhupada, and they could actually act as his representatives with great spiritual strength and potency.

In ISKCON today it's difficult to find ANYONE who's acting as Srila Prabhupada's representative, acting on Srila Prabhupada's behalf.

The "living gurus" are acting as "little Prabhupada's" and are advising their disciples: "You can't understand Prabhupada's books or classes, you have to hear from me... I have some lecture tapes and books also--hear them instead. You can't understand Prabhupada..." So that's hardly being Prabhupada's representative. And the position of the Temple Presidents is very unclear. In the "zonal acarya" days the TPs were certainly representatives of the "zonal acarya," not Prabhupada, but what they are now I don't know. I don't think they even know themselves! So where's the authority? We used to obey the Temple President because he was Prabhupada's representative, but why should devotees obey the TP today? Who's representative is he now?

We hear so often from ISKCON "everyone needs a living guru." It's true, we all need personal guidance and instruction to help us advance in Krishna consciousness. Srila Prabhupada has given us everything in his books, but there are still many things one needs to learn in the association of devotees. That's why Srila Prabhupada empowered his disciples to become his representatives.

The "living guru" sect claim Srila Prabhupada can no longer accept disciples because he can't assocate with such disciples physically as ISKCON's "living gurus" can. However most of Srila Prabhupada's directly initiated disciples in his physical presence could not get such direct personal guidance from Srila Prabhupada either!

Srila Prabhupada had so many disciples and such a busy schedule, how could he possibly solve each and every personal problem of every one of his disciples? However Srila Prabhupada actually did give direct personal one-to-one guidance and training to all of his disciples THROUGH HIS REPRESENTATIVES. Even if one wrote to Srila Prabhupada personally on such matters he would generally simply refer the devotee to his representative in the area...

"You complain that as a householder it is very difficult. Especially you want to preach. There are examples of great preachers who were householders, such as Bhaktivinode Thakur, although we cannot hope to imitate him. You have not mentioned whether you are attending the activities of the temple and associating with the devotees in Melbourne, and these things are essential. Madhudvisa Swami is my representative in charge of devotional affairs in Australia and if you will discuss the specific situation with him, he will see that you become engaged in work just suitable to your situation as a householder." (74-04-07 Letter: Raghunatha)

Srila Prabhupada stressed time and time again the best way to associate with the spiritual master is by following his instructions, that personal bodily service to the spiritual master was not as important as following his instructions. It is much more important to go out and distribute Srila Prabhupada's books than to get his physical association.

Even on philosophical questions it was not very easy for an ordinary devotee to get a personal reply from Srila Prabhupada. Ordinary devotees generally couldn't even write to Srila Prabhupada. If every one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples wrote him a letter every month how on earth could he answer them? That's why he empowered his disciples to act as his representatives, so they could answer the questions on his behalf. That's also why Srila Prabhupada wrote his books. He put all the questions and answers in the books. And that's what he would tell his disciples who would write to him with such questions.

"So if you can satisfy them intellectually and answer all their questions, that will be your success. All the answers are there in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, and Teachings of Lord Caitanya. You will simply have to study these books to find out the answers. Anyway, I think Japan will be good field in future for spreading our Krishna Consciousness Movement. You are tested devotees; please handle the matter carefully, and Krishna will give you all help." (69-10-03 Letter: Bali-mardana, Sudama)

"If one simply regularly chants and follows the rules and regulative principles all questions of philosophy will be answered by Krsna from within and all doubt will be cleared also in this way. And the same answers are there again in our books like Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc. So please see that all the initiated devotees stick rigidly to their daily chanting and regulative living in devotional service. This is most important." (70-02-14 Letter: Madhudvisa)

"I am very glad to know that you are reading our literatures and you are very thoughtful about them. I am always happy to answer your questions, but you should practice to get the answers from your husband and try to find them out by reading further in our books. All questions will be clarified if you simply read our books very thoroughly and follow the simple process of devotional service as we have given it to chant regularly and rigidly observe the rules and regulations. This is our principle that the spiritual science becomes revealed to the devotee from within the heart according to the degree of his surrender to Krsna. You are a very hopeful student and intelligent devotee, so you continue to pursue your devotional activities patiently and Krsna will open your path of Krsna consciousness so you will progress more and more." (70-07-25 Letter: Ekayani)

"So far you being philosophically-minded, that I can see and appreciate, but in future I think you can ask any questions you may have in these matters to one of the Swamis or to your GBC man. I have given them the answers to all such questions, so they can help you. I am an old man now, and my interests are turning to philosophy and translation. If you help me by relieving me from this administrative work, that will free me to give you so many more fine books from Vedic literature and from our own devotional line. So kindly assist me in this way. Actually, if you simply serve in a surrendered attitude, and go on chanting regularly, the answers to everything will come out automatically: "To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." (X, 10). (72-02-27 Letter: Mohanananda)

"If you read all our books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and others, you will get all the answers to your questions. Still I shall be very glad to answer besides that." (74-07-16 Letter: Alfred Ford)

Still, even though Srila Prabhupada could not be physically present with all his disciples, he trained his senior disciples so they became competent in Krishna consciousness then they could act as his representatives. In this way, through his representatives, Srila Prabhupada could preach to the devotees and deal with their day-to-day spiritual and material problems all over the world.

Everyone, including the book distributors on the street, the Temple Presidents and the GBCs were conscious they were acting as Srila Prabhupada's representatives and the whole movement went on nicely with everyone as godbrothers and Srila Prabhupada in the center.

The Temple President and the other senior devotees in the temple acted as siksa [instructing gurus] and Srila Prabhupada is the diksa [initiating guru]. Of course Srila Prabhupada is the main siksa guru also, but still there are so many things about Krishna consciousness we have to learn from the devotees. I know in my devotional life Srila Prabhupada is my guru, both diksa and siksa, but I had so many other siksa gurus in ISKCON. In fact I would have never even had the opportunity to read Srila Prabhupada's books if the ISKCON devotees didn't sell them to me.

Even if I read Srila Prabhupada's books by myself I cannot imagine how I would have become Krishna conscious.

When I started reading Srila Prabhupada's books it was more or less out of curiosity. I didn't really believe people could do these things--get out of bed before 4:00am every morning, chant Hare Krishna for two or three hours every day and give up illicit sex even! It seemed impossible to me. So, just to see if the devotees were really doing these things, I started getting up early and going to the temple to see what was actually happening there. And everyone was chanting Hare Krishna in ecstasy and dancing and having a really wonderful time.

So I started chanting Hare Krishna also... But it's only because I saw the devotees, other young people just like me, were chanting Hare Krishna and enjoying it. Then it became possible for me also to chant Hare Krishna seriously. It was not just something an old swami from India was talking about in a book, it was something real, something tangible that I could take part in and it was happening in a big house in Mt. Lawley (Perth, Western Australia) just 15 minutes walk from where I was living...

I owe a great debt to so many devotees who are my siksa gurus and without their sincere preaching and real love and concern for me I'm sure Krishna consciousness and Srila Prabhupada would have not been much more to me than an old Indian swami talking about things in a book which were not very practical and which I was unable to do.

Unfortunately almost all the devotees who were my siksa gurus are no longer in ISKCON, most of them became victims of the bogus ISKCON guru system and are now no longer seriously practicing Krishna consciousness. It's heartbreaking to me to see ISKCON destroyng the lives of so many sincere devotees and Srila Prabhupada's movement.

So we definitely need guidance and instruction from other devotees, however Srila Prabhupada has ALREADY provided that in ISKCON through his representatives, the Temple Presidents, the GBCs and the sannyasis. There's absolutely no need for another group of "living gurus" to undermine the authority of Srila Prabhupada's actual representatives and provide something that was never available to Srila Prabhupada's disciples in his physical presence!

The whole "living guru" cult is completely bogus. Most of Prabhupada's disciples had absolutely no opportunity for the physical one-to-one relationship the "living guru" cultists claim is so necessary for spiritual advancement.

The argument "one needs a living guru to get answers to his questions" is completely bogus. What's wrong with asking the Temple President for the answers to your questions?? What's wrong with reading Srila Prabhupada's books and finding the answers?? That's what devotees did in Srila Prabhupada's physical presence.

Many devotees question where a person will get his spiritual authority from under the ritvik system. But they have not understood what the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used himself to initiate his disciples is, otherwise this question would never arise.

The ritvik system IS ISKCON prior to Srila Prabhupada's physical departure in 1977. All the Prabhupadanugas are saying is exactly what Srila Prabhupada said in his will: "The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change."

The whole concept is nothing should have changed. Srila Prabhupada organized everything, including his acceptance and training of new disciples, in such a way that his physical presence was immaterial. He accepted disciples through his representatives and he trained his disciples through his representatives and his books.

Still many say, "but you need a 'living guru'". However they don't seem to realize more than 90% of Srila Prabhupada's disciples had very little personal association with Srila Prabhupada. Some of Srila Prabhupada's directly initiated disciples never even saw Srila Prabhupada "living"...

Even if the devotees had the opportunity of living in the same temple as Srila Prabhupada for a week or so, all most of them would do is hear Srila Prabhupada give class and go on with their normal service (book distribution mostly). There was no opportunity to cook hundred-course banquets and spend all day idly chatting with "Guru Maharaja" as tends to happen with ISKCON "gurus" and their disciples today... Srila Prabhupada had his own cook and he was just eating rice, dhal, chapatis, subji, etc.

Simple prasadam... Not hundred-course banquets...

Most devotees do not realize there's absolutely no place in the management system Srila Prabhupada established for ISKCON for ANY "living gurus" except His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada! That does not mean Srila Prabhupada's disciples cannot take their own disciples, it just means they cannot do it in ISKCON.

The current ISKCON guru system is a complete concoction. To justify themselves ISKCON "gurus" say one needs a "living guru" and they claim Prabhupada is not a living guru.

With the exception of a few devotees in the beginning and some fortunate souls who served Srila Prabhupada as his personal servants, there was very little opportunity for Srila Prabhupada's disciples to render him ANY physical service. There was also practically no opportunity for most devotees to even have one-to-one talks with Srila Prabhupada or even ask him questions in the class or write him a letter...

The devotees would hear Srila Prabhupada give class and he usually did not even ask for questions. Prabhupada would come into the temple at 7:00 to see the Deity Greeting and the devotees would offer Srila Prabhupada Guru-puja and have kirtan, then Srila Prabhupada would give his Bhagavatam class and ask them to "chant Hare Krishna." Then there was another kirtan and prasadam and then everyone was out on book distribution for the whole day!

So the so-called "living guru" relationship ISKCON devotees have with their "gurus" was not possible for 99% of Srila Prabhupada's disciples to have with him.

In Srila Prabhupada's system the Temple Presidents, the GBC's, the sannyasis and other senior devotees were expected to be siksa gurus for the devotees. So there was no need for a "living guru" except for Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada fulfilled all the needs of his disciples for training, personal association and answering questions by empowering his representatives, the Temple Presidents and GBC's to act on his behalf.

So in Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON there is no position in the organizational structure for gurus other than him. That is one of the reasons ISKCON's "living guru" fiasco has been such a failure. There's simply nothing for these "living gurus" to do in ISKCON!

Srila Prabhupada divided all the responsibility between the Temple Presidents and the GBC, he did not leave anything for so-called "living gurus" to do... And that's the problem for the "living gurus" in ISKCON today. There's no position for them in the structure of ISKCON, they have no authority at all. They don't even have authority over their disciples! The ultimate authority is with the Temple Presidents and that can only be overridden by a vote of the full GBC with the agreement of the devotees in the temple. So where does that leave the "living gurus" and their disciples?

The result of the "living guru" philosophy has been the destruction of ISKCON. The "living gurus" have tried to usurp and undermine the authority of the Temple Presidents and have stolen millions of dollars from the temples in the name of "guru daksina." In addition the competition and fighting among the "living gurus" and their disciples has created many factions within ISKCON who all have slightly different versions of the philosophy and all fight over new bhaktas to get them for "Their" guru...

The result is an unmanageable, unworkable organization without any logical philosophy to support its actions. It is COMPLETELY different from the ISKCON Srila Prabhupada established by training his disciples and empowering them to act as HIS representatives. The "living gurus" have turned ISKCON, which Srila Prabhupada created as Vaikuntha into hell...

"Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "ritvik--representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity..." (Srila Prabhupada's July 9th. Letter)

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!

Madhudvisa dasa

[cbrahma 0]

 

It is a fact that people tend to judge the guru by observing the quality of his disciples.

 

There is another camp - the self-righteous one - the one that dismisses all the corruption and , for all intents and purposes, the concrete evidence that the system just does not work. They do this by claiming false gurus are simply the fault of the false disciples - hence judging the guru by the disciple.

"If you're really sincere, you'll get a guru". So if a real guru doesn't 'poof' appear, then ipso facto the questioner is insincere.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

There is another camp - the self-righteous one - the one that dismisses all the corruption and , for all intents and purposes, the concrete evidence that the system just does not work. They do this by claiming false gurus are simply the fault of the false disciples - hence judging the guru by the disciple.

"If you're really sincere, you'll get a guru". So if a real guru doesn't 'poof' appear, then ipso facto the questioner is insincere.

 

There are many smaller groups in this picture, including the one you described.

 

I personally think that because there was always way too much focus on the individual guru in ISKCON, devotees lost track of the fundamentals of Krsna consciousness. Instead of seeing guru as an external manifestation of Sri Guru, devotees developed a full blown personality cult around Srila Prabhupada, which later morphed into the personality cults around "zonal acharyas", culminating in total insanity of "King Bhaktipada" where someone who is supposedly a Vaishnava guru is parading among the devotees openly wearing a royal crown and sceptor, acting like a king of the world to be.

 

This type of cult mentality scares away sincere seekers from our movement and alarms the outside society.

 

When was the last time you have heard ritviks talk about Krsna, for example? When was the last time you saw Iskcon sannyasis act like sannyasis from our shastras? Our movement needs to go back to the fundamentals of Bhagavad Gita, where guru talk is less then 1% of the conversation.

 

Our gurus would not be falling down if being a guru in our movement was not such an ego trip and placement in a position of immense power with facilities for all kinds of sense gratification.

 

I'm afraid that unless we are able to transcend these divisions and change our focus from guru to Krsna, this movement has a very bleak future.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Our gurus would not be falling down if being a guru in our movement was not such an ego trip and placement in a position of immense power with facilities for all kinds of sense gratification.

 

 

Gurus do not fall down. If they fall down they were not guru. Also what makes them guru? The GBC? Nonsense. Complete nonsense. No committee is qualified to make one guru. It isn't a post. This institutional concept of a guru, of bhakti is ridiculous and invites abuse. Mature disciples should see this and do away with such fakery. But they wont because most of them are in positions of authority which they ENJOY. That is the opposite of spirituality - as in fact is ISKCON.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Gurus do not fall down. If they fall down they were not guru.

 

This is another myth of the personality cultists...

 

Where in the shastra does it say that gurus do not fall down? In this material world anybody can become subject to illusion, and that even includes Lord Brahma, the original acharya of our sampradaya.

 

you ask what makes one guru? in very simple and practical terms it is people who seek spiritual guidance from this person, and who see him as Krsna's representative.

[suchandra 1]

 

This is another myth of the personality cultists...

 

Where in the shastra does it say that gurus do not fall down? In this material world anybody can become subject to illusion, and that even includes Lord Brahma, the original acharya of our sampradaya.

 

you ask what makes one guru? in very simple and practical terms it is people who seek spiritual guidance from this person, and who see him as Krsna's representative.

I find this mentality is quite offensive and misleading at the same time - as soon someone says, why you insist to call people who can fall down but initiate their own disciples, why you insist to call these people spiritual master and not just priest, you protest even up to quoting Lord Brahma, saying he also deviated, what is clearly a misquote. At that point when Lord Brahma became the head of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya-sampradaya he was situated in perfect state of Krishna consciousness, no deviation possible anymore at that state. But it seems this is just how you construct your whole concept upon, you insist to have gurus who're controlled by lust, greed, etc. And as soon someone says, why not call such people priest, then he's delusioned like anything? Result of such compulsive thinking: you'll be finally forced to call them priests because sastra says, a guru has transcended the modes of nature. It is that simple.

[xexon 0]

It is a fact of life that once a master has left this world, and leaving no spiritual successor, that movement is doomed to fail.

 

Much like a satellite falling out of the sky. The energy that kept it flying is no longer there. The orbit will decay with time.

 

 

 

x

[Kulapavana 0]

"Madhvacarya, in his conception of how one should see the acarya, the spiritual master, could not harmonize Brahma's bewilderment. After all, he is the sampradaya guru, the foremost guru of the tradition, the Brahma-Madhva sampradaya. So Madhvacarya omitted these two chapters on the illusion of Brahma from Srimad-Bhagavatam. But Mahaprabhu did not. He accepted Sridhara Swami's edition, which is in accordance with the suddhadvaita philosophy of Visnuswami. The Visnuswami sampradaya follows raga-marga, spontaneous devotion. Sridhara Swami included those two chapters with his commentary, and Mahaprabhu accepted that, and it is corroborated in Caitanya-caritamrta. Madhvacarya could not accommodate the idea that guru may be seduced. He could not tolerate that guru may not know everything, may not be omniscient, but Mahaprabhu could." Srila B.R Sridhara Maharaja

 

Vedic writings also give several examples where Narada Muni, another one of our acharyas, becomes illusioned.

 

I am definitely not suggesting that people like Kirtanananda are in the category of true acharyas, but even Srila Prabhupada clearly placed them in the position of gurus (regardles of what type of guru you may see them). It was their fault that they did not measure up to the proper standard and fell down, but without a doubt they were given that position even as Prabhupada knew very well they still had serious problems. Thus gurus can and do fall down. It does not happen only in ISKCON, or only in the last 40 years. It is a fact which the writings of previous acharyas like Narahari Sarkar address in some detail.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

It is a fact of life that once a master has left this world, and leaving no spiritual successor, that movement is doomed to fail.

 

Much like a satellite falling out of the sky. The energy that kept it flying is no longer there. The orbit will decay with time.

x

 

The satellite of ISKCON was supposed to fly on energy focused on Krsna. I see hundreds of new devotees going strong in their Krsna consciousness because they understand what the real focus should be, and because they understand the limitations of any guru.

 

Most devotees were disappointed and left becuse they expected their guru to be a Superman with superhuman powers, thank to the fairytales and myths circulating in Iskcon. Those who stayed never really believed in the fairytales told by the Iskcon mythmakers and instead trusted Krsna, shastras, and their own heart. They saw guru as a helpful figure, but not as the begining and the end of their spiritual life.

[cbrahma 0]

 

This is another myth of the personality cultists...

 

Where in the shastra does it say that gurus do not fall down? In this material world anybody can become subject to illusion, and that even includes Lord Brahma, the original acharya of our sampradaya.

 

you ask what makes one guru? in very simple and practical terms it is people who seek spiritual guidance from this person, and who see him as Krsna's representative.

I'm hardly a cultist, personality or otherwise. It is a requirement of scripture that a guru be brahma bhuta - fixed on the spiritual platform - otherwise how can he lead one to the spiritual world. Otherwise it's a crap shoot - it's gambling - which is against religious principles.

[xexon 0]

If a baby bird was religious, it would never leave the nest.

 

Sometimes you must take a chance.

 

 

x

[theist 1]

 

I personally think that because there was always way too much focus on the individual guru in ISKCON, I personally think that because there was always way too much focus on the individual guru in ISKCON, devotees lost track of the fundamentals of Krsna consciousness. Instead of seeing guru as an external manifestation of Sri Guru, ...

 

Exactly, but not just Iskcon. Caitya-guru is the common guru for all living entities. More specifically for the GM devotees they can all agree Lord Caitanya is the universal guru.

 

Why go beyond this when meeting and discussing Krsna? I think it stems from a desire to argue and be divisive.

[Beggar 0]

 

They saw guru as a helpful figure, but not as the begining and the end of their spiritual life.

 

Here's Krsna's trick (After all He is quite a tricky chap, won't you admit), a "real" nay, more than real uttama adhikari (mahbhagavata) guru is the beginning and end of spiritual life, but because they are so deeply, spiritually humble to the nth degree they are completely transparent so that the full Krsna conception comes through them. Srila Prabhupada used the term, "transparent via media". Such a spiritual personality has descended to this world as Krsna's representative although to carry out their service or function they must act like a madhyma adhikari and discriminate who is engaged in Krsna's service and who is engaged in Maha Maya. The eleven Zonals were persons who had served their guru in devotional life for anywhere from 6 to 12 years when he entered nitya lila. They were generally kanisthas who were entering madhyama but not yet steady in that position. Unfortunately they chose to imitate Srila Prabhupada and the ensuing disaster is of historical record. Despite the fact that the Zonal system was dismantled the imitating style of guru bhoga was handed down to the next wave of ISKCON gurus and then to the next. Reforms were attempted but still the new elected gurus did not know how to behave properly and even if they did they were unable properly put it into action. (with a few exceptions). The eleven Zonals were like rotten apples that spoiled the barrel, for anarthas can be social as well as personal. Now the ISKCON sannyasa and guru system is for the most part rotten to the core (I'm getting hungry for apples so excuse my analogies). If devotees jump the ISKCON ship and go to post Gaudiya Math camps to save their spiritual lives then they are seen as disloyal to Srila Prabhupada. Each personal will have to look within their own heart and then proceed, and the Lord in the heart will guide us if we can hear. "First save yourself then you can save others."

[cbrahma 0]

 

If a baby bird was religious, it would never leave the nest.

 

Sometimes you must take a chance.

 

 

x

For one thing, according to the Vedas there is no such thing as chance.

For another it shouldn't be a crap shoot. That's material. If guru is material, then he is impotent.

[Beggar 0]

 

For one thing, according to the Vedas there is no such thing as chance.

For another it shouldn't be a crap shoot. That's material. If guru is material, then he is impotent.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

"There is always the absolute [principle] and the relative consideration."

"Gradation is everywhere."

The absolute is black and white. There is the light and there is darkness.

But our preceptors also talk of such things as the time of sunrise when there is a little light and we can begin to see ourselves. We are also told of the beginning, middle and highest stages of devotion. If we think that everything should be black and white and judge others by that standard then we are inviting that such a standard of judgment will be applied to ourselves.

[suchandra 1]

 

Here's Krsna's trick (After all He is quite a tricky chap, won't you admit), a "real" nay, more than real uttama adhikari (mahbhagavata) guru is the beginning and end of spiritual life, but because they are so deeply, spiritually humble to the nth degree they are completely transparent so that the full Krsna conception comes through them. Srila Prabhupada used the term, "transparent via media". Such a spiritual personality has descended to this world as Krsna's representative although to carry out their service or function they must act like a madhyma adhikari and discriminate who is engaged in Krsna's service and who is engaged in Maha Maya. The eleven Zonals were persons who had served their guru in devotional life for anywhere from 6 to 12 years when he entered nitya lila. They were generally kanisthas who were entering madhyama but not yet steady in that position. Unfortunately they chose to imitate Srila Prabhupada and the ensuing disaster is of historical record. Despite the fact that the Zonal system was dismantled the imitating style of guru bhoga was handed down to the next wave of ISKCON gurus and then to the next. Reforms were attempted but still the new elected gurus did not know how to behave properly and even if they did they were unable properly put it into action. (with a few exceptions). The eleven Zonals were like rotten apples that spoiled the barrel, for anarthas can be social as well as personal. Now the ISKCON sannyasa and guru system is for the most part rotten to the core (I'm getting hungry for apples so excuse my analogies). If devotees jump the ISKCON ship and go to post Gaudiya Math camps to save their spiritual lives then they are seen as disloyal to Srila Prabhupada. Each personal will have to look within their own heart and then proceed, and the Lord in the heart will guide us if we can hear. "First save yourself then you can save others."

 

Good points. Besides when Lord Brahma deviated it says, "The Lord, however, asked Brahmā to give up his present body because it had created the demoniac principle."

Some advise for those who sit on the vyasasana and deviate or "create a demoniac principle", but who will follow? Therefore, only personalities who actually mastered all those urges mentioned below can become a spiritual master. It is really that simple.

 

NoI 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

It is a requirement of scripture that a guru be brahma bhuta - fixed on the spiritual platform - otherwise how can he lead one to the spiritual world. Otherwise it's a crap shoot - it's gambling - which is against religious principles.

 

The concept of having just one guru in life is something that was invented in Iskcon for the benefit of the organization and turned into another myth.

 

If you look at the lives of prominent devotees in our tradition practically all of them had more then one guru. I had (and still have) more then one guru as well and it has been working fine for me, despite the fact that my diksa guru fell down from his post.

 

How do I know that my guru is on the brahma-bhuta platform? I don't. And it does not bother me, as long as I am actually learning from that person how to be a better devotee of Krsna. I have learned a lot from my diksa guru when he was representing our sampradaya and I am greatly indebted to him for that, altough I do not now consider him my guide. That stage of my life is over.

 

It is a long, long journey to the spiritual world for most of us and we may have several different gurus before we get there. That is a FACT.

[bhaktajan 0]

Originally posted by Kulapavana Post # 10:

Most devotees were disappointed and left because they expected their guru to be a Superman with superhuman powers, thank to the fairytales and myths circulating in Iskcon.

 

Those who stayed never really believed in the fairytales told by the Iskcon mythmakers and instead trusted Krsna, shastras, and their own heart. They saw guru as a helpful figure, but not as the begining and the end of their spiritual life.

..........................................................................................................................

..........................................................................................................................

[Most Others who, left the full-time life in the temple's confines, left to pursue their independent lives, as is best done as has always been done by householders, on their own Recognizance. Most did not leave because of some disgust with fallen 30-Something year old Gurus who opted for looking to get lucky--they are all just like you and me and the person we all hope will give a donation for a copy of Prabhupada's tranlations]

 

Kulapavana, your statements are true but they, ironically, are contradicted by common knowledge that is circulated ad nausea, esp. to non-vaishnavas & non-vedic yogists (see my point below).

 

I'm proud to be a part of a the Hare Krishnas who are the premier inquistors of Bogus Gurus.

 

A neophyte new-comer has always been thought by the common Hare Krishnas temple devotee(s), as written in Prabhupada's purports, how to recognize Bogus Gurus.

 

So in that spirit:

Let the world know that the first rule in establishing ISKCON is to weed out Bogus Gurus, so let us get to work (which our guru expect of us) and spread the news of "Who is Krishna?!!" so everyone is aware of the "real thing as it is".

 

That includes practicing the performance of congregational Singing of Devotional songs in the temple

while the Pujari performs arcana and

the cooks are preparing feasts and

the pot washer is wiping his brow and

the lecturer is reviewing scriptural cross-references and

the front lobby is directing traffic and offering pranams to arrivals and

babys are led into the temple proper and

shoes are left on a crowed floor and

incense is replenished to Krishna's approval and

the car parker attends to his valet skills and

a Kumar-ji seeks out his befriended brahmacaryi to express his recent insights to a verse and

the temple Drama group attends to the visiting Bharat-natyam dancers and

the family of 8 sits in the life-members chambers and

a pilgram, still on the road, is on their way to join the festivities wondering what they will encounter . . .

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: The below verse should give you solace.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

...a "real" nay, more than real uttama adhikari (mahbhagavata) guru is the beginning and end of spiritual life, but because they are so deeply, spiritually humble to the nth degree they are completely transparent so that the full Krsna conception comes through them.

 

Perhaps we define the term "spiritual life" somewhat differently. I used it in a more general sense, as I am not very advanced in Krsna bhakti and mostly deal with similar people. One day perhaps I will graduate to an active, deep relationship with Krsna, where I suspect the guru is the beginning and the end of that phase of spiritual life.

[Beggar 0]

 

PS: The below verse should give you solace.

 

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

2/19/41 --- "My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisance’s with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for devotion, for it has become his rightful claim". SB 10.14.8

 

Yes, it does give me solace. You know that picture from Marseille in 1941 is kind of growing on me too.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

2/19/41 --- "My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisance’s with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for devotion, for it has become his rightful claim". SB 10.14.8

 

Yes, it does give me solace. You know that picture from Marseille in 1941 is kind of growing on me too.

 

Nice suite.

[cbrahma 0]

 

The concept of having just one guru in life is something that was invented in Iskcon for the benefit of the organization and turned into another myth.

 

If you look at the lives of prominent devotees in our tradition practically all of them had more then one guru. I had (and still have) more then one guru as well and it has been working fine for me, despite the fact that my diksa guru fell down from his post.

 

How do I know that my guru is on the brahma-bhuta platform? I don't. And it does not bother me, as long as I am actually learning from that person how to be a better devotee of Krsna. I have learned a lot from my diksa guru when he was representing our sampradaya and I am greatly indebted to him for that, altough I do not now consider him my guide. That stage of my life is over.

 

It is a long, long journey to the spiritual world for most of us and we may have several different gurus before we get there. That is a FACT.

 

The distinction between siksa and diksa has not been part of this discussion.

I didn't imply anywhere that there is only one guru - certainly the diksa is unique. Prabhupada himself insisted that the guru be uttama-adhikari

 

 

 

"The guru

must

be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru

must

be accepted from the topmost class. [...]

 

When one has attained the topmost position of

maha-bhagavata

, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead.

Only

such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

(C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

 

 

[bhaktajan 0]

 

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

2/19/41 --- "My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisance’s with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for devotion, for it has become his rightful claim". SB 10.14.8

 

Yes, it does give me solace. You know that picture from Marseille in 1941 is kind of growing on me too.

 

 

The advances of mundane inventions and intellectual gymnastics has been perfected long before we were born.

 

The above picture shows the karmi level of sophistication that was achieved in society--yet we now know [via Srila Prabhupada's arrival] how to see the ugra-karma wrought, in the last century, by our post-adolescent excuse for pillars of society.

 

All the dreams and methodical sacriments of life that young people went through until they met their destinies are what is represented in the tears above.

 

Existential work and play and innovations in all the places and times in the last century were knocked-down, to be built again, to what end? --TBA.

[theist 1]

 

The concept of having just one guru in life is something that was invented in Iskcon for the benefit of the organization and turned into another myth.

 

If you look at the lives of prominent devotees in our tradition practically all of them had more then one guru. I had (and still have) more then one guru as well and it has been working fine for me, despite the fact that my diksa guru fell down from his post.

 

How do I know that my guru is on the brahma-bhuta platform? I don't. And it does not bother me, as long as I am actually learning from that person how to be a better devotee of Krsna. I have learned a lot from my diksa guru when he was representing our sampradaya and I am greatly indebted to him for that, altough I do not now consider him my guide. That stage of my life is over.

 

It is a long, long journey to the spiritual world for most of us and we may have several different gurus before we get there. That is a FACT.

 

I really like this vision of things. Makes so much sense to me. Why not place all our faith on the Supreme Lord as the eternal Guru who never falls down. He will then be pleased to show us His manifestation on earth in the form of the purified devotee to aid in our advancement.

 

This whole thing has gotten turned around and is upside down, the cart before the horse etc. We think we need guru to find krsna as a starting point when actually we need the Grace of krsna to find guru.

 

Why aren't individuals instructed to pray to the Lord in the heart from day one? Instead we hear "Oh that is for advanced devotees, first you have to find a embodied guru, become his slave, and then the Lord in the heart will guide you." This is bogus. The Gita clearly tells us the Lord in the heart is directing everyone already and He is approachable by 4 classes of people...not just the advanced.

 

Everyone can and should pray directly to the Lord for guidance and have faith that He hears us and will help us.

 

This direct relationship continues to the point of full God realization where Supersoul in the heart may be revealed as the two armed Krsna form according to your rasa but there is no way to the two armed form by side-stepping Paramatma.

 

Birth after birth it is the Lord in our hearts who is the guru who stays with us. Why do we ignore Him.

 

I prefer membership in another camp then those listed above... the camp of the unaffiliated.

 

Kula pavana is absolutely correct. All these this guru over that guru "debates" and wars is an incredible disturbance.