the hierarchy of mercy?

[theist 1]

Yet Hiranyaksa was said to give Lord Boar quite a fight.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The "Satan fairytale" is only a fairytale if it is taken literally. Other than that it is full of theistic meaning of a figurative type.

 

So is the fall from Goloka fairytale. It may be useful, but only to a point.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Yet Hiranyaksa was said to give Lord Boar quite a fight.

 

A good movie has to look realistic

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

I believe we are *all* fallen angels. In our heart of hearts, we all know what is right and what is wrong, but choose darkness/ignorance over light/knowledge.

 

 

Oh, no! dont tell me you believe in that stuff?

 

the Satan fairytale is like the fall from Goloka stuff. good for kids but really bad for adults.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

To believe that an entity can exist apart from God is to deny the supremacy of God. Of course Jesus and Satan are brothers!!! We are all sons and daughters of God.

 

 

To use biblical content caution is required.

 

 

 

"Bible Belt Blogger: Huck is right:

Mormons believe Jesus, Satan are brothers – by Frank Lockwood

 

Get ready for an uproar, folks. Mike Huckabee apparently told a New York Times reporter that Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers. The story isn't going to run until Sunday, but somebody leaked details to the Associated Press. AP has now moved a story suggesting that Huckabee's a nut and an ignoramus for making such a crazy intolerant statement. There's only problem -- Huckabee is right...

 

When I read the AP story, I raised my eyebrows a bit. But I decided to check the church's official website before posting anything.

 

I found the following mini-article, entitled "How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?" It ran in the 1986 version of the church's official magazine, Ensign.

 

I'm posting the entire text, but here's one of the key lines: "Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer's older brother." Again -- the source is fairly sound. It's from the church's own website.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Exactly my point.

 

In college, a professor pointed out that, in the Book of Job, God and Satan have a friendly (but competitive) relationship--something more akin to Bhagavan and Maya than to the view of Satan held by many Christians.

 

 

The Satan story is actually derived from the ancient middle-eastern beliefs of the eternal fight between Good and Evil in this world. As such, Satan is a real competitor to God.

 

In the Vedic tradition God has no competitor, there is no eternal struggle between good and evil. Thus there is no Satan. There are only petty demons occasionally killed by God for the amusement and benefit of His devotees.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Exactly my point.

 

In college, a professor pointed out that, in the Book of Job, God and Satan have a friendly (but competitive) relationship--something more akin to Bhagavan and Maya than to the view of Satan held by many Christians.

 

there is no consistency in this area even among the various Jewish traditions, let alone all Abrahamic religions.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Dear Lord--who do you associate with? I'd suggest you read books that address saranagati, such as Nectar of Devotion, or Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about surrender. You might also try spending some time with Bhaktivinoda Thakura's songs of saranagati. This has nothing with anyone's need to exact obedience from others, nothing whatsoever with exercising power, but with reforming our hearts to the extent that they become fit for housing the Lord's lotus feet. If that's not your goal, it's no surprise you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Quite frankly, I've read some of these and the concept still escapes me.

It sounds like total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?) and that to me is really scaaarry.

[bhaktajan 0]

 

Originally Posted by Bhaktajan ---POST #15

Going round in circles

 

 

 

<hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1">

 

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Are these trains-of-thoughts born of playing Devils Advocate?

Are these some kind of intellectual Debating exercises?

 

The word that comes to mind is 'spurious' rendering of topics.

Also, 'slovenly' spoken tracts also comes to mind.

 

"Absolute" is what TRUTH is. Seek what is absolute vs. what is subjectively the chewed chew.

 

oy vey -- ys,

Bhaktajan

 

.......................................................................................

 

Originally Posted by cbrahma ---Post #16

on the contrary

 

 

 

<hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by bhaktajan

Are these some kind of intellectual Debating exercises?

 

The word that comes to mind is 'spurious' rendering of topics.

Also, 'slovenly' spoken tracts also comes to mind.

 

 

 

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->This topic goes to the heart of the bhakti-marga process, one that is very important to me. If you don't see the point or the meaning, then don't respond with your personal offensiveness.

.......................................................................................

Originally Posted by cbrahma ---Post #84

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by stonehearted

Dear Lord--who do you associate with? I'd suggest you read books that address saranagati, such as Nectar of Devotion, or Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about surrender. You might also try spending some time with Bhaktivinoda Thakura's songs of saranagati. This has nothing with anyone's need to exact obedience from others, nothing whatsoever with exercising power, but with reforming our hearts to the extent that they become fit for housing the Lord's lotus feet. If that's not your goal, it's no surprise you have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Quite frankly, I've read some of these and the concept still escapes me.

It sounds like total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?) and that to me is really scaaarry. --cbrahma[/quote]

 

............................................................................................

Eureka cbrahma,

I figured it out! You're a dope! And yet so many Bonefide Hare Krishnas around the world jussssssst loooooove to use you as a trainin bag.

 

best regards with what it is you do so well,

 

their servant, and also some most fallen too,

bhaktajan

[theist 1]

 

A good movie has to look realistic

 

We all know god has no competitor but what if Krsna wants to know the feeling of competition?

[cbrahma 0]

 

If they're waiting to use me as a trainin bag, then my staying away is a sign of intelligence - not that you are able to put it together. You're too busy using offensiveness as an excuse for offensiveness.

[stonehearted 0]

 

Quite frankly, I've read some of these and the concept still escapes me.

It sounds like total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?) and that to me is really scaaarry.

Well, there you go. It only sounds like "total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?)" to those not fortunate enough to get the right association. After all, the literature where this is discussed should be read under the guidance of someone who actually understands it. In fact, it's really about embracing your real identity and leaving everything inferior aside.

 

Maybe we should discuss something we're qualified to talk about. How about them Nicks? (I actually have no clue what's going on in the world of sports.)

[cbrahma 0]

 

Well, there you go. It only sounds like "total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?)" to those not fortunate enough to get the right association. After all, the literature where this is discussed should be read under the guidance of someone who actually understands it. In fact, it's really about embracing your real identity and leaving everything inferior aside.

 

Maybe we should discuss something we're qualified to talk about. How about them Nicks? (I actually have no clue what's going on in the world of sports.)

You've described a Catch 22 , a vicious circle. Without becoming part of an RRH *, I can't get association and without association I won't understand an RRH.

 

*Rigid Religious Hierarchy

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Why asume it's rigid, when there are so many examples of the exalted souls' mercy and accomodating spirit?

 

 

You've described a Catch 22 , a vicious circle. Without becoming part of an RRH *, I can't get association and without association I won't understand an RRH.

 

*Rigid Religious Hierarchy

[cbrahma 0]

 

Why asume it's rigid, when there are so many examples of the exalted souls' mercy and accomodating spirit?

Why assume it's mercy? The rigidity is easily verified. I have done so personally.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Srila Jiva Gosvami's Disappearance Day

Oahu, Hawaii: Jan. 16, 2002

So-called gurus hanker to make many disciples. They spend so much money, make so many agents, and tell them, "If you bring five disciples, I will pay you so much." This is going on nowadays, but Srila Jiva Gosvami and the Six Gosvamis did not practice this. How many disciples did Srila Raghunatha Das Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami, Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha Bhatta have? Srila Jiva Gosvami did not have any formal disciples at all, but the whole world is his disciple. Sri Syamananda Prabhu was initiated by another guru, Sri Hrdaya Caitanya, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura was initiated by Srila Lokanatha dasa Gosvami, and Srila Srinivasa Acarya was initiated by Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, but they all came under the shelter of Srila Jiva Gosvami. He then explained to them the Vedas, Upanisads, and all other sastras, and he also thoroughly explained to them all tattvas, established philosophical truths. hey wanted to be initiated by him, but he refused. He told them, "There are so many elevated Vaisnavas more qualified than I. Please, you should go to Lokanatha Gosvami, and you should go to Gopal Bhatta Gosvami." They had not intended to go to them; they wanted him to be their guru. Yet, they followed his instructions. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura went to Srila Lokanatha Prabhu and Srinivasa Acarya Prabhu went to Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami. Lokanatha Gosvami refused to give Narottama dasa Thakura initiation, although the Thakura waited for many years. At night, Narottama dasa cleaned the place where Lokanatha Gosvami had passed stool, and finally, seeing his sincerity of purpose, Lokanatha Gosvami was bound to give him initiation. Similarly, Gopal Bhatta Gosvami never wanted to accept any disciples. By the request of Srila Jiva Gosvami he accepted only one disciple – Srinivasa Acarya. However, those two disciples, along with Syamananda Prabhu, went to Bengal and collected thousands and thousands of followers.

Srila Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji also never wanted to accept any disciples. Only by the special request of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura did he initiate his son, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami. He saw in his own heart that if he did not initiate Srila Sarasvati Thakura, he would die. Srila Babaji Maharaja was therefore bound to give him initiation, but he gave no initiation to anyone else. His disciple, Srila Sarasvati Thakura, performed a miracle. He made disciples in all of Bengal, all over India, and after that all over the world. Thus, who is more merciful: the guru or the disciple? We see that disciples are more merciful than their gurus. This is because they go out to everyone, to invite them to experience the mercy of their guru.

[theist 1]

cbrahma,

For some reason you are ignoring all the statements that tell you surrender is a personal thing between you and God and does not need to involve any institutions...rigid or loose.

 

The reason for that is best known to you.

 

But even then there is no need to worry about it for now. You (we) will surrender to God when and if we as individuals choose to and not a moment before.

 

For now none of us here really wants to surrender to the Lord. We are all rebellious. We need to first come to know something of Krsna within our hearts and to that end we are trying to remember Krsna and hopefully receive some enlightenment.

 

I find it enough for me at the moment to just feel happy that I exist eternally and to be seeking further blessings from the Lord. I'll think about surrendering later.

 

Krsna told Arjuna to just "surrender to Him" in the 18th chapter of the Gita. The Arjuna that represents me is the Arjuna of chapter 1. I have a lot of learning to go through first and I suspect you do as well.

 

Why let the mind torture you about surrendering now? We are not prepared just as the disciples of Christ were not prepared for the decision making He had to do at Gethsemane.

[stonehearted 0]

 

You've described a Catch 22 , a vicious circle. Without becoming part of an RRH *, I can't get association and without association I won't understand an RRH.

 

*Rigid Religious Hierarchy

Nah--actually, you've created a semblance of a Catch-22 by introducing something invented (either by you or by "them"): RRH. That only appears to exist to those so attached to false ego that they can't accept that someone may naturally have a superior position. The same thing would be true if you wanted to get a college degree; you'd have to accept that your professors have something you don't and accept their guidance so you may attain it as well.

 

I agree with theist that surrender doesn't involve any real hierarchies and that you'll be okay. After all, you seem to have some attraction to the goal. Anyway, I'm not particularly distressed; everyone acts according to their own adhikara. Life is ultimately about pleasure, and I hope your life provides you with whatever pleasure you can conceive. Be well.

[cbrahma 0]

 

cbrahma,

For some reason you are ignoring all the statements that tell you surrender is a personal thing between you and God and does not need to involve any institutions...rigid or loose.

 

The reason for that is best known to you.

 

But even then there is no need to worry about it for now. You (we) will surrender to God when and if we as individuals choose to and not a moment before.

 

For now none of us here really wants to surrender to the Lord. We are all rebellious. We need to first come to know something of Krsna within our hearts and to that end we are trying to remember Krsna and hopefully receive some enlightenment.

 

I find it enough for me at the moment to just feel happy that I exist eternally and to be seeking further blessings from the Lord. I'll think about surrendering later.

 

Krsna told Arjuna to just "surrender to Him" in the 18th chapter of the Gita. The Arjuna that represents me is the Arjuna of chapter 1. I have a lot of learning to go through first and I suspect you do as well.

 

Why let the mind torture you about surrendering now? We are not prepared just as the disciples of Christ were not prepared for the decision making He had to do at Gethsemane.

For some reason you've missed all the statements where I address surrender, ask for its definition - which was not forthcoming.

I see it as the political necessity of the guru/hierarchy to dominate and thrive. Ugh.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Nah--actually, you've created a semblance of a Catch-22 by introducing something invented (either by you or by "them"): RRH. That only appears to exist to those so attached to false ego that they can't accept that someone may naturally have a superior position. The same thing would be true if you wanted to get a college degree; you'd have to accept that your professors have something you don't and accept their guidance so you may attain it as well.

 

I agree with theist that surrender doesn't involve any real hierarchies and that you'll be okay. After all, you seem to have some attraction to the goal. Anyway, I'm not particularly distressed; everyone acts according to their own adhikara. Life is ultimately about pleasure, and I hope your life provides you with whatever pleasure you can conceive. Be well.

 

You are talking around the topic. All you do is tell me I'm making things up - like there is no such thing as an RRH when that is so easily verified in fact.

ISKCON is a top down totalitarian government. The Catholic church is another case in point. Ayatolahs, Gurus, Popes are all despots. You need to believe it's my imagination and you can't even come up with an explanation.

I would hardly call accepting the advice of a scholar or professor surrender. Neither would they. I don't have to hand over myself body and soul to somebody just to learn. That' s the exclusive province of RRH.

[cbrahma 0]

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

This is the critical sloka of the Bhagavad Gita

But there are varying translations.

The one by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

translates

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

 

Whereas Narayana Maharaja translates

 

["As stated in scripture [bG. 18.66], ‘After giving up all kinds of religious and occupational duties, if you come to Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and take shelter, I will give you protection from all of life's sinful reactions. Do not worry.'"

 

NM has left out the enigmatic word 'surrender' and translated it as 'come to Me'.

That is non-problematic but the word 'surrender' has so many meanings and it isn't clear which one is intended in the conclusive sloka.

 

If it means ego-release that is fraught with dangers, because in the process one can also release one's very soul to unscrupulous cheaters.

[stonehearted 0]

 

For some reason you've missed all the statements where I address surrender, ask for its definition - which was not forthcoming.

I see it as the political necessity of the guru/hierarchy to dominate and thrive. Ugh.

Here's the definition given by our teachers:

anukulyasya sankalpah

pratikulyasya varjanam

raksisyatiti visvaso

goptrtve varanam tatha

atma-niksepa-karpanye

sad-vidha saranagatih

 

"‘The six divisions of surrender are the acceptance of those things favorable to devotional service, the rejection of unfavorable things, the conviction that Krsna will give protection, the acceptance of the Lord as one's guardian or master, full self-surrender, and humility."

 

This has nothing to do with institutions or external hierarchies. You only need to worry about RRHs if you want to find a place for yourself in them, to move up the ladder. You apparently aren't interested in that, which I take as a good sign.

[stonehearted 0]

 

You are talking around the topic. All you do is tell me I'm making things up - like there is no such thing as an RRH when that is so easily verified in fact.

ISKCON is a top down totalitarian government. The Catholic church is another case in point. Ayatolahs, Gurus, Popes are all despots. You need to believe it's my imagination and you can't even come up with an explanation.

I would hardly call accepting the advice of a scholar or professor surrender. Neither would they. I don't have to hand over myself body and soul to somebody just to learn. That' s the exclusive province of RRH.

That's exactly the point: you're talking about ISKCON, and I'm not.

 

As for college professors, you check the catalogs and see if they have something you want. Then you have to apply to the university, pay a pile of money. Then you have to attend classes, take tests, fulfill assignments, and so many other things. Some people can't handle that much hassle (if you're looking for an RRH, you've found it in the university--I know because i taught there for 16 years), so they don't get degress. And that shows they really want something else. No biggie. Not everyone needs a college degree.

 

And not everyone needs a guru. Only those who are convinced that real happiness lies beyond the "life" of getting and spending, etc. and who feels he or she must have that happiness needs a guru. Others are wasting their time looking.

 

Real gurus aren't popes, they aren't despots. I'm sorry your experience has been so limited that you haven't found anyone in whom you can place your faith. That would be a rareYou should not surrender until you find someone of whom you are convinced you must have his or her shelter.

[cbrahma 0]

 

You listen to their advice and see if they have something you want. Then you have to apply to the university, pay a pile of money. Then you have to attend classes, take tests, fulfill assignments, and so many other things. Some people can't handle that, so they don't get degress. And that shows they really want somthing else. No biggie.

 

Real gurus aren't popes, they aren't despots. I'm sorry your experience has been so limited that you haven't found anyone in whom you can place your faith. You should not surrender until you find someone of whom you are convinced you must have his or her shelter.

My experience hasn't been that limited. I associated with disciples of other gurus as well as ISKCON members, and it's always about control.

That the one problem

The other is all the ritual requirements - offering foodstuffs, preparing them a certain way, being intiated... and on and on.. which are implicit in the chanting process.

[theist 1]

As the saying goes:

 

"You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink."