Lower Animals Have No Economic Problem

[suchandra 1]

 

 

 

 

 

"We are, we have become so foolish that…, that the lower animals than the human being, they have no economic problem. They are freely living. In the morning they do not care where they shall eat. But there is eating. No animal, no bird, is dying of starvation. Have you seen any animal or any bird has died out of starvation? And who is providing him? So they have no economic problem. The only this foolish, advanced, civilized man, under the name of so-called misusing the intelligence, which was given to him for realization of God, misusing for sense gratification, and therefore they are troubled. That is the whole problem. The world’s problem is due to this forgetfulness. Isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih. They have forgotten the protection of Krishna, God. They think that, “By this adjustment, we shall be able to protect.” Nonsense. It is not possible. Can you protect yourself from death? No. Then what is your protection? So this is the formula: bhayam dvitīyabhinivesatah syat. Dvitīya means that a, a secondary existence beyond God which is, in Bible, it is said, Satan and God. So this satanic mentality has made them under the control of material nature. Satanic mentality. What is that satanic mentality? That “I want to be God.” Always thinking falsely, “I am God,” or “Independent,” “I can do anything, everything,” “Whatever I survey, I am the lord of whatever I survey.” These foolish things are going on.

 

So this is very nicely explained, and reference is given by Lord Caitanya that our whole difficulty, problems, anxiety… A similar verse is in Bhāgavata, another place, sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat. Asad-grahat. Asat means non-permanent, which will, we shall not exist. Due to our absorption in that sight, asat, this matter… Just like this body: it will not exist. So giving too much stress on the bodily concept of life, they are sada samudvigna- dhiya, they are always full of anxiety. This is the cause. The foolish people, they do not know. Still, they are very much proud of education. Here is the cause, that because we have given too much stress on this false conception of life, therefore we are always full of anxiety. And as soon as I understand that “I am pure spirit soul, part and parcel of Krishna, the Supreme Lord. He is giving me all protection, and my duty is to love and serve Him,” then I am free. At once I am free. The simple formula. How He’ll give me…? He’s not poor man. He’s, He’s… What you are? Your human, human being, they are very few. If you compare with other animals, other living entities, you are most insignificant number. Your number is very little, especially for the civilized. If you search out a hole in your room, you’ll find millions of ants coming out. Even in your room you’ll find. You’ll be over-voted. So who is supplying their necessities? Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. In the Vedic language we can understand that one singular entity… God is also a living entity. He’s not void. He’s just like a person, like you and me. But He’s so powerful. Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. One single number, He is providing so many, innumerable living entities. So our business is… And the Bhagavad-gīta you’ll find, tesam satata- yuktanam yoga-ksemam vahamy aham: [bg. 10.10] “I supply whatever he needs. Who is constantly engaged in Krishna consciousness, I supply it. I take the goods personally and deliver there.” Why should you be anxious? Krishna will take hundred pounds of flours, hundred pounds of rice, and deliver you. Just be Krishna conscious. In ordinary home you don’t find more than five pounds. You see in our stock, all hundred pounds."

 

Srī Caitanya-caritamṛta, Madhya-lila 20.119-121

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

New York, November 24, 1966

Full Lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/661124CC.NY.htm?i=1966

[Kulapavana 0]

"No animal, no bird, is dying of starvation"

 

That is simply not true. Lots of animals die of starvation every year. And animals spend a very large portion of their time looking for food, just like humans do.

[suchandra 1]

 

"No animal, no bird, is dying of starvation"

 

That is simply not true. Lots of animals die of starvation every year. And animals spend a very large portion of their time looking for food, just like humans do.

This is true because we human beings are not even causing problems for ourselves but are destroying the wildlife habit for so many animals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"But we cannot see even that the birds, beasts, they do not become technologists. How they are getting food? There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The human form of body are 400,000. Out of many bodies that live in jungle, they have also no technology, no education, no systematic government, nothing— but they are also eating. The birds and beasts are eating. Everyone is eating. The ants within your home, within the hole of your room, they’re also eating. So who is not eating? Everyone is eating. Why you have made a civilization to work hard like an ass for your eating? What is this civilization? If everyone is, without working, they’re getting their food, then what is your advancement of civilization that you have to work like an ass to get your food? That is not advancement of civilization. Therefore, because we are becoming animal, less than animal, therefore they are decreasing the personal God. This is the idea.

 

But here it is said, ya adyo bhagavan. This is human civilization. Everyone should know what is Bhagavan and take lessons from Bhagavan. Bhagavan is coming. Krishna says,

 

yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadatmanam srijamy aham [bg. 4.7]

 

He comes. He’s very anxious. People are ignorant, so therefore Kapiladeva has come. And the mother says, lokasya tamasā andhasya cakṣuḥ: “My dear son, Kapila, You are just the real eyes of these blind men, who cannot see You, or who cannot see God.” Cakṣuḥ. So how cakṣuḥ? Because by knowledge. Premāñjana- cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [bs. 5.38] By knowledge, when we shall develop or awaken our dormant love for God, then we can see God— with these eyes. Simply it has to be treated. Premāñjana-cchurita. You have to apply the ointment, eye ointment, of loving God. Then you’ll see God everywhere. How? Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti- vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [bs. 5.38]. He sees twenty-four hours God and nothing but God. Not only within his heart, but everywhere he sees God. If he goes to the sea, he’ll see Krishna. If you are thoughtful, you’ll see, “Why such a big sea does, cannot touch my feet? I am walking on the beach. There is order. There is order, ‘You cannot come beyond this limit.’ ” Otherwise, it can overpower you at any moment. Is it very difficult for the sea. One wave can overpower you. A whole Bombay city can be washed off. But it cannot do so."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.25.9

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, November 9, 1974

 

 

Full lecture:

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/741109SB.BOM.htm?i=1974

[Kulapavana 0]

 

This is true because we human beings are not even causing problems for ourselves but are destroying the wildlife habit for so many animals.

 

animals are routinely dying of starvation even in the areas where humans are practically absent, like the polar regions or deserts. you get one winter with a heavy snowfall in any temperate region and thousands of animals will perish from starvation. It happens all the time.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

So this is the formula: bhayam dvitīyabhinivesatah syat. Dvitīya means that a, a secondary existence beyond God which is, in Bible, it is said, Satan and God. So this satanic mentality has made them under the control of material nature. Satanic mentality. What is that satanic mentality? That “I want to be God.” Always thinking falsely, “I am God,” or “Independent,” “I can do anything, everything,” “Whatever I survey, I am the lord of whatever I survey.” These foolish things are going on.

 

Relavant to the discussion of Christianity vs. Vaishnavism, note Srila Prabhupada's choice of words here. "Satanic mentality". Right after mentioning "Satan and God", we get "Satanic mentality". So, it is not that we are blaming the "evil one", Satan. Rather, our problem is in our own mind. It is our own "evil" mentality that is causing our suffering.

[suchandra 1]

 

animals are routinely dying of starvation even in the areas where humans are practically absent, like the polar regions or deserts. you get one winter with a heavy snowfall in any temperate region and thousands of animals will perish from starvation. It happens all the time.

 

 

 

 

Huge reindeer flocks which overwinter in Greenland - troubled by Poland's industrial polution?

 

 

The actual reason for this might yet not be explored but still even people who don't believe in a God maintaining the living entities like Greenpeace or PETA base their understanding on the perfectly functioning system of nature which at least Greenpeace and PETA consider that it has to be protected. That some Vaishnavas consider nature as highly defective (see above) has to be respected and is not further astonishing.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

That some Vaishnavas consider nature as highly defective (see above) has to be respected and is not further astonishing.

 

death from starvation among animals is part of the self-regulating mechanisms plainly visible in nature. it has nothing to do with the nature being defective, quite to the contrary.

it is the simplistic presentation of nature which is defective.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

This discussion is distracting from Srila Prabhupada's point.

 

The point is: human society is endeavoring with so much effort to ensure its survival. Often, this struggle leads to so much pointless suffering and *needless* starvation (of humans and others).

 

Whether they starve to death or not, the animals cary on in their "natural" state without making so many artificial constructs. Verily, animals may starve to death, but they (presumably) do not spend their entire life in *fear* of starvation.

 

Our human *fear* of starvation and this or that affliction lead us to hoard (and avoiding hoarding is the fifth regulative principle).

 

 

death from starvation among animals is part of the self-regulating mechanisms plainly visible in nature. it has nothing to do with the nature being defective, quite to the contrary.

it is the simplistic presentation of nature which is defective.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

http://krishnascience.com/Vaisnava%20Library/Biographies/Letters%20from%20Srila%20Prabhupada/1974/74-03A.htm

 

 

Regarding grains, if rice and mung dahl is available from Formosa please try to secure as much as possible as donation or

by purchase. India is now practically without food grains on

account of, partially, nature's punishment, and partially, the

hoarding plan of the rogues.

 

From our own Mahaksa Prabhu (quoting Siddhaswarupananda Prabhu):

 

http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/18p.html

 

 

<center>Sri Ishopanishad: Mantra One

 

¡°Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself; which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.¡±

...

 

 

Some people in the West try to get around this natural limit by artificial means. Their desire for sense gratification is so great that it drives them to all kinds of crazy actions. In order to eat as much as they desire (rather than as much as they need), they have resorted to such things as shortening the length of their intestines so that fewer nutrients are absorbed from the food that they eat, and to taking pills that keep food from being digested. One of today's more popular methods was quite popular in ancient Rome as well-"vomiting. A person eats to his fullest, induces vomiting, and then fills his belly again. Some people spend all day like this, eating and vomiting. Another way in which people take more than their quota is by accumulating vast amounts of money and property-far more than anyone could possibly use in a single lifetime. Nelson Rockefeller, for instance, was so wealthy that he had dozens of huge houses, and in each of his houses he had huge golden beds. But he had only one body, and so he could sleep only in one bed at a time, under the roof of one house at a time. Greedy, wealthy people also have huge bank accounts that contain far more money than they could ever really need. This is another manifestation of greed. Such hoarding runs directly counter to the teachings of the Sri Ishopanishad.

 

</center>

 

Our human *fear* of starvation and this or that affliction lead us to hoard (and avoiding hoarding is the fifth regulative principle).

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/bhakti/principles.htm

 

One of the principles of Sanatan Goswami:

 

 

Accepting only what is necessary, or dealing with the material world only as far as necessary

[Kulapavana 0]

 

This discussion is distracting from Srila Prabhupada's point.

 

The point is: human society is endeavoring with so much effort to ensure its survival. Often, this struggle leads to so much pointless suffering and *needless* starvation (of humans and others).

 

Whether they starve to death or not, the animals cary on in their "natural" state without making so many artificial constructs. Verily, animals may starve to death, but they (presumably) do not spend their entire life in *fear* of starvation.

 

Our human *fear* of starvation and this or that affliction lead us to hoard (and avoiding hoarding is the fifth regulative principle).

 

There are many animals who make very elaborate efforts to ensure their survival - like all social insects for example (ants, bees, termites, etc). and quite a few animals hoard their food as well (from mice and squirrels to bears).

 

The point as presented above is somewhat lost because the argument and example is rather superficial and incomplete.

 

Vedic civilisation was very elaborate, responsible, and practical. Living from day to day may be a formula for select renunciates, but in the social dimension makes very little sense.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Wow!!! You can out-nit-pick *me*. I'm impressed!!

 

Most examples and analogies are inadequate and oversimplified. Yet, they are illustrative nonetheless.

 

The fundamental principle is: don't take more than you need. Even the bears and the ants are usually following that.

 

 

There are many animals who make very elaborate efforts to ensure their survival - like all social insects for example (ants, bees, termites, etc). and quite a few animals hoard their food as well (from mice and squirrels to bears).

 

The point as presented above is somewhat lost because the argument and example is rather superficial and incomplete.

 

Vedic civilisation was very elaborate, responsible, and practical. Living from day to day may be a formula for select renunciates, but in the social dimension makes very little sense.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Sam Kinison (the late screaming comedian) used to do a gag about the starving Ethiopians in which he shouted "MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!"

 

According to this article, the issue is not so simple:

http://chora.virtualave.net/ghelawdewos-famine2.htm

 

 

Uprooting the Root Causes of Famine in Ethiopia

 

 

 

 

 

Ghelawdewos Araia

 

 

 

 

I am grateful to those concerned Ethiopians who have taken the initiative to extend their relief support to the starving fellow Ethiopians. In point of fact, one of these concerned Ethiopians is the Houston based group and I, for one, wholeheartedly endorse their noble initiative.

However, while appreciating relief efforts, the main theme of this Article is ‘uprooting famine once and for all.’ Therefore, I will thematically highlight development strategies to eradicate famine from the Ethiopian landscape. In order to make a more meaningful discourse on the conquest of famine, I shall first address the misconceptions surrounding the causes of mass starvation.

It is an elementary notion and quite obvious even to the uninitiated that the disappearance of rain can cause drought and subsequent famine in Ethiopia. But, it is also abundantly clear that the culprit behind drought and widespread starvation is not as such lack of rain but the vulnerability of a given society that wholly depends on a rain-fed agriculture. The incredible irony is, while Ethiopia encounters drought and famine almost every decade (now perhaps every half a decade) despite the blessings of hundreds of major rivers and thousands of streams, Egypt with an ecology that does not witness rainfall and the country depending on the Nile waters of Ethiopia, is a major exporter of food crops, especially beans.

By the same token, China and India, once known as lands of famines, now (thanks to their sound government policies and development strategies) they have not only gone beyond rain-fed agriculture, harnessed their waterways, and diversified their economies, but also became relief donors themselves.

Nature as a whole and climate in particular are not to be blamed for the cyclical famines if we critically examine it in light of the living examples of countries mentioned above that managed to defeat hunger successfully. If we continue to blame nature for the causes of the Ethiopian famine (whether this conceptual framework is cynical or engendered by genuine ignorance is immaterial), we shall miserably fail to understand the vagaries of famine and possibly come up with a wrong diagnosis and hence wrong prescription.

In order to have clarity on the phenomenon of famine, we must first be able to combat ambiguous, elliptical, and seductive explanations of the Ethiopian famine. Put otherwise, we must avoid sentimental and superficial analysis of mass starvation shrouded in mysticism and religious overtones.

Once we begin to see beyond the rather seductive and ironic depictions of the famine encounter, we will be in a position to recapture a glimpse of the real causes of famine and cautiously avoid the conflation of natural calamities with ‘man-made’ famines. It is from this standpoint that I like to argue that the Ethiopian famine is largely caused by human forces and not by nature, and to be sure far from starving, Ethiopians should have enjoyed the fruits of a breadbasket from “Garden of Eden.” (See my argument in The Paradox of Bread Basket Starving Ethiopia, September 2002).

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

The so-called science of Economics is built upon two flawed assumptions:

 

1. Human wants are unlimited.

2. Resources are limited.

 

When unchecked by intelligence, there certainly *is* no end to our desires. Yet, if we live a regulated life, we will find our of our needs can easily be met, and we need not hanker for anything material.

 

With regards to resources, there may be a limit to the resources available to us, but it is near impossible to say what that limit is--it is somewhat arbitrary.

 

One example of this is oil. Folks have been predicting the end of oil for quite a while now. Estimates as to how much oil remains to be extracted from the earth vary wildly. As time goes on, the human ability to find and extract oil has progressed. Oil may run out one day, but nobody can say when with any great certainty.

 

It's well known how tightly-controlled and manipulated the diamond market is.

 

In the US, farmers are paid *not* to grow some crops in order to artificially maintain prices.

 

The scarcity mentality behind the religion of Economics makes it ripe for all sorts of abuses.

[suchandra 1]

 

Living from day to day may be a formula for select renunciates, but in the social dimension makes very little sense.

 

 

Prabhupada's conclusion is that human beings are not meant to work like ugra-karmis - that nature is so fertile that there can be easily 10 times more people being fed sumptuously and live freely. Of course people have to be trained to become servants of God, Krishna, otherwise if they live in opposition what human live is meant for, their situation becomes as such that nature keeps them struggling more than lower animals, are treated by nature like enemies.

[suchandra 1]

 

There are many animals who make very elaborate efforts to ensure their survival - like all social insects for example (ants, bees, termites, etc). and quite a few animals hoard their food as well (from mice and squirrels to bears).

 

The point as presented above is somewhat lost because the argument and example is rather superficial and incomplete.

 

Vedic civilisation was very elaborate, responsible, and practical. Living from day to day may be a formula for select renunciates, but in the social dimension makes very little sense.

Looks like Prabhupada appeals to those who can follow simple logic, whereas critics don't accept. Critics were always there, and that those don't agree to Prabhupada's logic and arguments is normal and has to be respected with friendly politeness and wellwishing.

 

hungry elephants while eating

 

"For meals the birds, bees, they are not going to office. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. Only the civilized form of, the so- called civilized men, they are undergoing so much trouble for their meals. But others, they are not going fifty miles. They have got ready food. They sit down on any tree. Oh, there are enough fruits. Little eating, finish their business. Or take the elephants also. They are eating so much. They have got also food. Therefore śāstra says that “Food is already there.” So many people say, “Oh, so many people are dying, starving.” And where is the man? Show me who is dying for starvation. These are all pleas. They won’t take any tapasya for understanding, but they will work hard like asses, like hogs and dogs, for two meals. But we should consider that we are taking so much penances for simply filling our this hungry belly, appetite. Why not little tapasya for Krishna, chanting sixteen rounds? But will… That is also very difficult. Then? Tapasya, penance in pure bhakti-yoga."

 

full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan

[theist 1]

 

This discussion is distracting from Srila Prabhupada's point.

 

The point is: human society is endeavoring with so much effort to ensure its survival. Often, this struggle leads to so much pointless suffering and *needless* starvation (of humans and others).

 

Whether they starve to death or not, the animals cary on in their "natural" state without making so many artificial constructs. Verily, animals may starve to death, but they (presumably) do not spend their entire life in *fear* of starvation.

 

Our human *fear* of starvation and this or that affliction lead us to hoard (and avoiding hoarding is the fifth regulative principle).

Yes. This is the point I was going to make but Murali has already done so so I will just give a thumbs up to his post.

 

I think it was Lao Tzu who gave us the saying, "Don't mistake the finger for the moon." We need to concentrate on what is being pointed out and not on what is doing the pointing.