The impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha, where did it come from?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Yeah but I bet you start having dreams of yourself as some Chuck Liddell figure battling Sarva(The Dreamer) Gatta figure and laying some heavy ground and pound on him or perhaps a guillotine choke.

 

Today is the day I cancel (again) my extra TV service down to a few PBS stations and and local crap TV. No more UFC and Boxing After Dark. I will be in withdrawls for awhile. But at least my last boxing match was Kelly Pavlic knocking out Jeremaine Taylor. Oh a thing of beauty it was.

 

Don't get me started on the UFC.

Randy Couture is the man!

Chuck has lost his last two fights.

I hope Rich Franklin can get his belt back this month in Cincinnati.

UFC rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beggar 0]

Each to their own, watching UFC gave me a greater appreciation for regular boxing. Now I find myself watching boxing on cable TV. Anarthas upon anarthas, not a pretty sight!

[theist 1]

 

Don't get me started on the UFC.

Randy Couture is the man!

Chuck has lost his last two fights.

I hope Rich Franklin can get his belt back this month in Cincinnati.

UFC rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't help it. It's on. I agree Chuck is slipping. Or is Rampage Jackson rising? Anyway I still like Chuck but I agree on Randy Couture. He rules and with class.

 

I'll be pulling for Rich. Time to step on that little Spider.

 

I hate to give it up and just when I was starting to catch on to Jiu Jitsu submissions a little bit. That's when it really gets good to watch the ground game even though I still prefer stand up. Problem is all the other channels that come with the package. I end up catching up on the Sopranos on Wed. Catching the Criss Angels floating freak show on tues. Monday night football. The First 48 and on and on.

 

I can't afford the time. I'm closing in on 56 and all this tv makes me forget death, my ever dependable guru, who will be arriving soon. I must be prepared to greet him properly.

 

When he comes he won't be asking about my favorite fighter or what happened to Aidrianna on the Sopranos. Or even what I think about the origin of the soul issue. Death arrives asking no questions and taking no prisioners. He just snatches us up and whisks us off. And for me that means destination unknown and in my more honest modes, like now, I have to admit, I am more than a little worried.

 

Please dear Lord, no more gross bodies, please. (ps no hell either.)

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

When he comes he won't be asking about my favorite fighter or what happened to Aidrianna on the Sopranos.

 

I have never watched that show ever.

I don't go for drama.

I like news, fights and educational stuff.

 

They would have to pay me to watch the Sopranos.

I hate New Jack City drama.

 

How about Dirty Jobs?

Or, the Myth Busters?

The myth busters are my heros!!

[theist 1]

 

Each to their own, watching UFC gave me a greater appreciation for regular boxing. Now I find myself watching boxing on cable TV. Anarthas upon anarthas, not a pretty sight!

 

Boxing is still tops with me also. I love the sweet science. Hope you caught the Pavlic vs. Taylor fight Sat. before last. The best fights are on HBO After Dark but having premium channels just opens up another whole can of worms.

 

TV should be called Hynovision.

 

Well full exclosure (or partial ) is good lest any new comers here think we are dedicated bhaktas with no outside interests.

[Sarva gattah 0]

We are all already in a matrix style 'show' and as Eric Burden said in his 1967 song San Franciscan nights 'you are the star of that movie'

 

Anyway found this very interesting quote -

 

Kshamabuddhi DASA – ‘The material world is only temporarily "real". after Maha-Vishnu withdraws the Mahat-tattva, the world is no longer real. because reality is ultimately defined as something that is eternal and unbroken, the material world does not really qualify as reality in the absolute sense. So, no, the material world is not real. it is an illusion. nonetheless, an illusion can cause many pains and pleasures, much like we experience while we are dreaming in our sleep. The souls in the sleeping condition of maya think that the material world is real, yet in truth it is not real. it is just like a dream. it appears to be real, but actually it is an illusion. it is a real illusion’.

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/lofiversion/index.php/t4243.html

[theist 1]

 

We are all already in a matrix style 'show' and as Eric Burden said in his 1967 song San Franciscan nights 'you are the star of that movie'

 

Anyway found this very interesting quote -

 

Kshamabuddhi DASA – ‘The material world is only temporarily "real". after Maha-Vishnu withdraws the Mahat-tattva, the world is no longer real. because reality is ultimately defined as something that is eternal and unbroken, the material world does not really qualify as reality in the absolute sense. So, no, the material world is not real. it is an illusion. nonetheless, an illusion can cause many pains and pleasures, much like we experience while we are dreaming in our sleep. The souls in the sleeping condition of maya think that the material world is real, yet in truth it is not real. it is just like a dream. it appears to be real, but actually it is an illusion. it is a real illusion’.

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/lofiversion/index.php/t4243.html

 

Ha! Checkmate Ksamabuddhi AKA Guruvani. This is the problem with taking an opposition position just for the sake of opposing something. Eventually we find ourselves opposing what we previously supported.

 

So were you wrong then or are you wrong now?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Ha! Checkmate Ksamabuddhi AKA Guruvani. This is the problem with taking an opposition position just for the sake of opposing something. Eventually we find ourselves opposing what we previously supported.

 

So were you wrong then or are you wrong now?

Take that straw man and tear him to pieces like a Pitbull!

Now, Theist is telling me what I meant when I said something.

 

If you can show me where I EVER said that we are in Goloka dreaming please do.

All devotees know that conditioned living beings are in a dreaming condition.

I have always understood that.

 

You are trying to say that previously I was babbling sleepervadi philosophy.

Sleepervadi philosophy is based on the idea that we are in Goloka under the spell of maya and dreaming.

 

I have NEVER said that and I totally and absolutely reject that idea.

 

What I do know and do accept is that, yes, we are dreaming in illusion.

But, where you are trying you to say that I ever advocated the sleepervadi philosophy is just a cheap shot to try and make me out to be contradicting previous statements.

 

I don't need some chump on this forum to tell me that conditioned jivas are in a sleeping condition.

I knew that from the first time I read Bhagavad-gita As-It-Is.

 

What I have never believed or advocated is that we, the conditioned souls, are in Goloka and dreaming.

What I have always understood from the books of Srila Prabhupada is that conditioned jivas are "sleeping in the lap of the witch called maya".

 

We are not sleeping in Goloka and imagining that we are worms in stool in the material world.

 

We are in the material world dreaming that we are lords of the material energy.

 

So, Theist doesn't play fair.

He is a cheater.

He tries to prove that I have at one time supported the "sleepervadi" philosophy.

I never have.

 

We are in the material world dreaming and sleeping in the lap of maya.

We are not in Goloka in the grips of illusion.

According to the Vaishnava siddhanta it is impossible to be in Goloka and become influended by maya.

It is impossible.

 

We are in the material world having the dream we are not servants of Krishna.

 

So, go get'em tiger.

Take your homemade straw man and tear him to shreds.

 

The fact that you have to resort to such cheap shots is just all the more proof you yourself are a "sleepervadi" from the ISKCON kindergarten college.

[CCC 0]

Hare Krsna!

 

I am aware that Srila Prabhupada said to his diciples not to stuck in the soul's fall down, but reading Srila Prabhupada's Books I have learnt that all of us come from the spiritual world and there we were Face to Face with God in the spiritual planets in a eternal blissful and conscious trascendental body. In this moment I am wondering how it is possible to be sat cit ananda without a spiritual body with spiritual senses, I mean mayavadis thinks that the ultimate truth is impersonal and they want to merge with the spiritual efulgence of the Lord, obviously in most cases they ignore this, so they attain the spiritual space as a spark of the impersonal brahman (Krsna can please anyone!, there is a place for all) . Because in that brahman there is no activity and the souls is ever active they can't be there for a long time, also as they didn't realized, in their previous lives, that they are eternal servitors of the Lord and wanted to be a part of the impersonal brahman, they can't return to the spiritual planets, if the impersonal origin of the soul says that we are a spark of light of the brahmajoti and never have a personal relationship with the Lord, Why the Lord doesn´t give to those mayadavis who returns to the brahmajoti from the material world, the chance to serve Him in the Vaikhunta Planets if they have attained again his "original" position (as particle of light in the brahmajyoti) and can choose again to serve Krsna or maya? (Also be aware that they are fed up with material acitivities, so they could try something better like to serve Krsna)

 

As Srila Prabhupada has taught the mayavadis are affraid in performing devotional activities because they think that they are material activities, and when they get to the spiritual sky they have to return to this material plane to perform some activity, for the soul is never inactive or serve Krsna or Maya.

 

We are marginal potency, that means we are not Internal potency, God or Vishnu Tattva or in others words Krsna or his Personal expansions. So it is possible for the infinitesimal soul to fall down from the spiritual world because the independence is there. Personally I think that when people says that Is not possible to falldown from Vaikhunta or KrsnaLoka, maybe they are thinking that they are at the same level of the almighty Radha-Krsna and their personal expansions.

 

Lord Caitanya has said that Krsnaloka is really HUGE if you sum all spiritual planets and all material planets you will have Krsnaloka so the proportions of Krsnaloka are acintya so all of us comes from there and falldown to Vaikhunta and then to/or the material planets, if 0.00001% of souls in Krsnaloke wants to come to the material world f I am sure that they will be unlimited numbers of souls. It is said that when you come to the material world you get a body as demigod and there you can remain there, go up again or fall down as a dog or whatever creature. Pastimes of this are the life of Narada Muni, the arjuna trees, Adam and Eve, Lucifer, etc.

 

Sorry for my English.

 

Hare Krsna!

[Guruvani 0]

 

Hare Krsna!

 

I am aware that Srila Prabhupada said to his diciples not to stuck in the soul's fall down, but reading Srila Prabhupada's Books I have learnt that all of us come from the spiritual world and there we were Face to Face with God in the spiritual planets in a eternal blissful and conscious trascendental body. In this moment I am wondering how it is possible to be sat cit ananda without a spiritual body with spiritual senses, I mean mayavadis thinks that the ultimate truth is impersonal and they want to merge with the spiritual efulgence of the Lord, obviously in most cases they ignore this, so they attain the spiritual space as a spark of the impersonal brahman (Krsna can please anyone!, there is a place for all) . Because in that brahman there is no activity and the souls is ever active they can't be there for a long time, also as they didn't realized, in their previous lives, that they are eternal servitors of the Lord and wanted to be a part of the impersonal brahman, they can't return to the spiritual planets, if the impersonal origin of the soul says that we are a spark of light of the brahmajoti and never have a personal relationship with the Lord, Why the Lord doesn´t give to those mayadavis who returns to the brahmajoti from the material world, the chance to serve Him in the Vaikhunta Planets if they have attained again his "original" position (as particle of light in the brahmajyoti) and can choose again to serve Krsna or maya?

 

As Srila Prabhupada has taught the mayavadis are affraid in performing devotional activities because they think that they are material activities, and when they get to the spiritual sky they have to return to this material plane to perform some activity, for the soul is never inactive or serve Krsna or Maya.

 

We are marginal potency, that means we are not Internal potency, God or Vishnu Tattva or in others words Krsna or his Personal expansions. So it is possible for the infinitesimal soul to fall down from the spiritual world because the independence is there. Personally I think that when people says that Is not possible to falldown from Vaikhunta or KrsnaLoka, maybe they are thinking that they are at the same level of the almighty Radha-Krsna and their personal expansions.

 

Lord Caitanya has said that Krsnaloka is really HUGE if you sum all spiritual planets and all material planets you will have Krsnaloka so the proportions of Krsnaloka are acintya so all of us comes from there and falldown to Vaikhunta and then to/or the material planets, if 0.00001% of souls in Krsnaloke wants to come to the material world f I am sure that they will be unlimited numbers of souls. It is said that when you come to the material world you get a body as demigod and there you can remain there, go up again or fall down as a dog or whatever creature. Pastimes of this are the life of Narada Muni, the arjuna trees, Adam and Eve, Lucifer, etc.

 

Sorry for my English.

 

Hare Krsna!

 

those are your opinions.

but, you didn't make one shastric reference in your post.

 

opinions don't mean anything.

 

The living beings are qualitatively internal potency.

Read the books and leave your opinions behind.

[CCC 0]

 

those are your opinions.

but, you didn't make one shastric reference in your post.

 

opinions don't mean anything.

 

The living beings are qualitatively internal potency.

Read the books and leave your opinions behind.

 

we are not equal to Krsna, In quality we are equal but not in quantity, above are my realization readings prabhupada's books, that is all and is supported by the sastras, also I have said very basics things.

[theist 1]

Guruvani, the king of the ever morphing philosophy. Everyone who has been on this forum for the past two months and read your posts knows you have been railing against any idea of dream.

 

Morph on.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Guruvani, the king of the ever morphing philosophy. Everyone who has been on this forum for the past two months and read your posts knows you have been railing against any idea of dream.

 

Morph on.

 

Aha!

Another myth for the kiddies to promote.

 

I actually thought you were better than that.

Such childish tactics just show how desperate you are to defend the fairytale tellers.

[Beggar 0]

According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has told that even the "oneness in quality" of the jiva with the Lord must also be qualified. We are told that the jiva's existence is eternal but if the Lord desires to destroy the existence of a jiva soul, then He may do so by His sweet will. This is a harsh thought and not generally true, not something to focus on etc. He, Bhagavan Sri Krsna is completely independent or svarat and may do whatever he chooses. Consequently some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers objected his using the phrase, "part and parcel" in his preaching. Srila Sridhar Maharaja harmonized this by using the principle that, "everything is to be known by its potential". Because we are potentially sat-cit-ananda, then we are "part and parcel" with the Lord. If everything is simultaneously one and different from itself and everything else then the jiva's are simultaneously one in quality and not one in quality with Bhagavan. All saktis or energies of the Lord eminate from Him, and we have manifested in the tatastha region and are now living a dream-like existence in the fool's paradise of the material world. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has explained, our only hope is that "clarion call" to take us back home, to our real existence, back to godhead. Whenever a disciple of Srila Prabhupada approached him with certainty on anything about Krsna Consciousness, except perhaps that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that disciple was always challenged and given the sauce by Prabhupada. Transcendental knowledge is descending, something we cannot capture with what Srila Saraswati Thakur called "our puppy brains".

[CCC 0]

 

Aha!

Another myth for the kiddies to promote.

 

I actually thought you were better than that.

Such childish tactics just show how desperate you are to defend the fairytale tellers.

 

 

I never said that we are now in krsnaloka dreaming, I never have reach that conclusion reading Srila Prabhupada's books. My realization is that is possible to falldown from Krsnaloka but in good manners, for example, "I want to leave goloka because I would like to know what is going on outside or just for curiosity" is like a trip, maya can't touch devotes there in Krsnaloka or Vaikhunta but there is free will, there is a pastime of a devotee who traveled from all planetary systems until reach goloka, but my idea is that this is the inverse.

So it is possible for the soul to get near the material world, or just heard about it from another souls, and have the desire to see what is going on there, for example in this material world there are suffering, death, birth or you can be as Krsna for a while. so for the soul this is interesting because he has never experimented this things, is very logic.

 

then that soul comes here and realize that is not a really a good place then He returns to the service of the Lord (maybe after millions of years, because he forget his original position, who are just seconds in the spiritual world where Krsna sent him scriptures, servitors,He himself descending, etc. to awake that soul to his original position as his servant); Prabhupada said that coming to this material world is like when a child put his hands on fire, after this he will never put his hands in fire or the soul never will come to the material world looking for the material enjoyment because he has the bad experience, so for that soul is almost impossible to come to the material worlds, Only they will come to preach or to serve the Lord with his protection.

 

Hare Krsna!!

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna." (Lecture in Australia)

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Food for thought, to be sure.

 

I can't accept that we are "potentially" sat-chit-ananda. It seems pretty clear that that is what we truly are, not what our potential is. Once the mundane covering is removed, that is *all* that we are. Maybe what you mean to say is that we can potentially *realize* our true nature.

 

As per our qualitative oneness with the Lord, it is true what you say. All qualities that we possess are also to be found in the Lord. However, the Lord has qualities not found in the jivas--omniscience, for example. From ancient wisdom and systems theory, there is the axiom, "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts". That is to say, for any system (like a car), the system will have qualities not found in any of the system's components (like the ability to drive from place to place).

 

 

According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has told that even the "oneness in quality" of the jiva with the Lord must also be qualified. We are told that the jiva's existence is eternal but if the Lord desires to destroy the existence of a jiva soul, then He may do so by His sweet will. This is a harsh thought and not generally true, not something to focus on etc. He, Bhagavan Sri Krsna is completely independent or svarat and may do whatever he chooses. Consequently some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers objected his using the phrase, "part and parcel" in his preaching. Srila Sridhar Maharaja harmonized this by using the principle that, "everything is to be known by its potential". Because we are potentially sat-cit-ananda, then we are "part and parcel" with the Lord. If everything is simultaneously one and different from itself and everything else then the jiva's are simultaneously one in quality and not one in quality with Bhagavan. All saktis or energies of the Lord eminate from Him, and we have manifested in the tatastha region and are now living a dream-like existence in the fool's paradise of the material world. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has explained, our only hope is that "clarion call" to take us back home, to our real existence, back to godhead. Whenever a disciple of Srila Prabhupada approached him with certainty on anything about Krsna Consciousness, except perhaps that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that disciple was always challenged and given the sauce by Prabhupada. Transcendental knowledge is descending, something we cannot capture with what Srila Saraswati Thakur called "our puppy brains".

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

The correct understanding of tatastha

 

 

“The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, and the material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety, the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position”. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

“The supreme knowledge of Krishna is exhibited in three different energies–internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognisance”. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

“In the Mayavadi commentary, the spiritual, transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been denied, and the Supreme Brahman has been dragged down to the level of the individual Brahman, the living entity. Both the Supreme Brahman and the individual Brahman have been denied spiritual form and individuality, although it is clearly stated that the Supreme Lord is the one supreme living entity and the other living entities are the many subordinate living entities”. “. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada

 

By definition we are the marginal energy of the Lord and that marginal energy is tatastha. I believe then that jiva-tatstha is represented first and for most as our nitya-siddha eternal bodily that perpetually serves Krishna Goloka. Marginal therefore means we are separated entities, yet at the same time fully dependant on Krishna, just like the rays of the sun cannot exist without the sun (analogy only, not to be taken literally) Marginal also means we have free will.

 

We are neither the superior energy or the inferior energy and therefore called the inbetween borderline energy or tatastha.

 

However, the eternal expression of the jiva-tatastha is their perpetual a nitya-siddha bodily, which is the marginal potencies perpetual Krishna Conscious expression of their ‘jiva-tatastha’ individuality.

 

Clearly tatastha is not an impersonal state of being, although the jiva-tatasha can enter and be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) in the dress of ethereal and biological containers.

 

There are other interpretations unfortunately that translate the word tatastha as an impersonal beginning for the marginal energy of the Lord; it is that interpretation that is incorrect.

[Sarva gattah 0]

The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word ‘material dream' simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays. It is that 'eternal' place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa.

Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our existence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion.

On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming.

They are simply our non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are excluded from Goloka and can only find expression within the yoga-nidra dreams of Maha-Vishnu. It is there such desires, thoughts or dreams are given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies) that are the ornaments and decorations of the mahat-tattva.

These vessels not only belong to the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva, that the jiva-tatastha possesses with their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness.

In this way, just like darkness appears when the sun is no longer visible, the nitya-baddha consciousness appears when one miss uses their free will to choose to ignore <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and their nitya-siddha body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, which is their full potential. Nitya-baddha body therefore is the secondary consciousness where one can experience their self centered mistaken dreams.

The reason the word 'dream' is used is because Prabhupada explains that Maha-Vishnu in His yoga-nidra state, is in a trance or dream, and that dream is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

Yoga nidra literally means ‘sleep’

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means 'inconceivable', bheda translates to 'difference', and abheda translates to 'one-ness'.

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time' to 'time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and 'rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness

When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains -

“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”.

Chapter 3. Karma-yoga

text 27

“The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport.

Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Ah! So, perhaps we blind men/women *are* describing the same elephant!

 

 

The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word ‘material dream' simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays. It is that 'eternal' place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa.

Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our existence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion.

On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming.

[gHari 0]

Dreaming preachers: your articles will have more power if you first indicate that the following quote is from Srila Prabhupada. You must make it clear which words are his and which words are yours. Too often it is unclear. Giving a reference after a quote is not as powerful as before, because when we read the quote we don't know how much credibility we must afford the quote. Your own comments and conclusions drawn for Prabhupada's words MUST stand out very distinctly. You must not cheat the readers, if only unconsciously. Fool them once, and you have lost a little credibility forever. Fool them too many times, and they just won't listen at all. More than once I have been reading along assuming it was more of Prabhupada, only to discover a few sentences later that I am reading speculation. Whether it is right or wrong, I treat speculation or logical deductions differently; one is absolute truth, the other a hypothesis.

 

Try using the BLOCKQUOTE to distinguish quotes. The format is "< less-than" BLOCKQUOTE followed by "greater-than >" and at the end of the quote the same thing with a preceding slash like /BLOCKQUOTE. It should work anywhere on the internet if you are copying and pasting your pieces.

[Sarva gattah 0]

We all must take a stronger stand that our ORIGINAL constitutional position is eternally nitya-siddha without any origin. We are always nitya siddha and due to being marginal, we sometimes misuse our free will to choose and forget this fact, we lose track of our original position. From another viewpoint - ‘We are always marginal whether we are as our eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka or as our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation.

MARGINAL MEANS - The living entities are situated between the material and spiritual potencies yet due to eternal time, which means a creation that is indestructible and imperishable, the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, already has a perpetual bodily (svarupa) relationship with KRISHNA in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. The living entity can use their free will (that is a characteristic of being marginal) and decide at any moment to abandon their service to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary 'dreaming consciousness projection. Ones non-Krishna Conscious desires and thought then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and provided with ethereal and biological bodies (material vessels). Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energy of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they can be surrounded by the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy or be covered by the inferior energy.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The inferior energy has no life and is only moved by life, moved by the marginal entities nitya-baddha consciousness and simultaneously Maha-Vishnu as the supersoul that accompanies every jiva-bhutah.(nitya-baddha)

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way both the nitya siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness are expression of the jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity)

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya SIDDHA body is fully dependant in Goloka. All the ethereal and biological vessels (material bodies) are provided by Maha-Vishnu via His representatives like Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and the 33,000,000 demigods so that the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can obtain vessels in Maha-Vishnu's creation according to their Karma.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Akruranatha - That is what Srila Prabhupada mean by marginal potency or “tatastha shakti”. It refers to the eternally minute, dependent, subordinate, fragmental characteristic of the jiva. This constitutional attribute of the jiva exists even when the jiva serves the Lord in a perfect spiritual body that is qualitatively just like the Lord’s body. He is always “marginal potency”.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>I would like to add further and stress the fact - ‘And the full potential of the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha is their eternally nitya-siddha svarupa body that is eternally founded, protected and sheltered in Goloka beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva’s (material creations) temporary and decaying reality.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada establishes the fact that the original and eternal expression and bodily identity of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is nitya-siddha.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>“That is called svarupa-siddhi. You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>

[Guruvani 0]

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Sarva gattah 0]

Akruranatha says - “Srila Prabhupada has said over and over again that jivas remain “marginal” and “fragmental” even in the liberated condition.” Yes, that is correct and very easily understood, Jai Prabhupada!

Japa Jim seems to not correctly understand this quote - “The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life.” Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117 purport,

Japa Jim says - "So, it is quite obvious that “marginal” means that the living entity is situated in the material energy due to forgetfulness of Krishna. Yes, that is also true however; you miss the point that the marginal living entities are also situated in Goloka and Vaikuntha in their perpetual <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious bodily condition or svarupa.

<FONT size=3>‘By the grace of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

<FONT size=3>‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

<FONT size=3>‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is.

<FONT size=3>On the other hand, the following description of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) taken from various other sects, leaves a very strong impression of Impersonalism that makes many believe the jiva-tatastha or the marginal living entity is actually in the appearance of an impersonal sparks, atoms and molecules that has polluted the thinking of many studying the Vedas.

<FONT size=3>This is a misleading concept - "The brahmajyoti, the non differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms. Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication".

<FONT size=3>Such comments are very, very misleading and only cause many to believe the marginal living entity (tatastha s’akti) originates from an impersonal source. This ‘impersonal’ description and origin of the jiva-tatastha is rejected by Srila Prabhupada

[Guruvani 0]

 

This ‘impersonal’ description and origin of the jiva-tatastha is rejected by Srila Prabhupada

Right, because the basis if impersonal Brahman is Krishna.

Otherwise, the marginal living entities are falling down from the brahmajyoti as Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport:

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.

The brahmajyoti is impersonal but it's basis is a person - Krishna.

So, the origin of the marginal jivas is the impersonal feature of the Supreme Person - Krishna.

 

Our member Sarva Gatah seems to be saying that their is no such thing as a brahmajyoti.

He seems to just be in denial that the brahmajyoti exists and is comprised of unlimited living entities devoid of devotional service and falling down into maya because of the lack of devotional service.

 

The fact is, there REALLY is a brahmajyoti comprised of unlimited living entities who are the souls who fall down into maya from the marginal plane of the Viraja where they are manifested by the marginal potency of Maha-Vishnu.

 

Krishna devotees in Goloka never fall down or fall into illusion.

Lord Krishna makes it clear in Bhagavad-gita that they are infallible and unaffected by maya.

They do not fall down.

In fact they are infallible and CANNOT fall down.

[Beggar 0]

 

In fact they are infallible and CANNOT fall down.

in-FALL-ible