The Buddhist

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

The streets are a public place so Hare Krishna's should only chant to themselves while on the street. No out loud chanting or prayer is now allowed in public places under your new authority as a member of the Prayer Police.

it's legal to chant on the streets.

It's not legal to have public prayer in school.

Obey the law.

That was Srila Prabhupada's program.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada should have been arrested for all the chanting he did on state funded university campuses. You were sleeping on the job.

theist · September 3, 2007

There is no need for a public prayer spectacle in school.
Silent prayer can be done anytime.

Prayer is a "spectacle". And how about the sankirtana where devotees chant prayers to their spiritual master out loud and on public street corners of major cities before chanting the Hare Krsna prayer for hours on end dressed in dhotis with shaved heads and sikha? And you blast the Christians who want to bring some God consciousness into the place where their childrens minds are being molded by atheistic hedonistic demons? Not very consistent.

I remember in the early 60's in up to maybe third grade at my elementary school going to lunch and nobody ate one bite before everyone was seated and a short group prayer was said out loud by all. I even remember the prayer, "God is great. God is good. Let us thank Him for our food. Amen"

All this hyperbole about shoving religion down peoples throats is just how an atheist would characterize our lunch time prayer.

Here is an idea instead of making the theist hide his belief in faith in God by remaining quiet I suggest that the atheist can remain silent during any prayer.

Never by force but also never disallowed.

Either this world belongs to Krsna or it doesn't. If it does then that should be openly acknowledged by human society at every step.

There IS an Inteligent Designer behind the cosmic manifestation. That is the correct position and it should be taught as such.

The self is NOT a product of matter but of transcendental substance and it should be taught as such.

The theist sees these simple truths as scientific understanding and the atheist sees them as superstious nonsense and sentimentalism.

No fence sitting on this one. Pick a side.

theist · September 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada should have been arrested for all the chanting he did on state funded university campuses. You were sleeping on the job.

You beat me to it AM.

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada should have been arrested for all the chanting he did on state funded university campuses. You were sleeping on the job.

Chanting isn't praying.

Chanting is glorifying God.

They are not the same thing. :popcorn:

theist · September 3, 2007

Isn't there some story in the Vedas where the kids are going to their demonic school masters that want to teach them about economic development etc. but the one devotee child is only interested in chanting and singing Hare Krishna or something and all his schoolmates love him? Can't remember if that was Prahhlada Maharaja or who it was.

Yes it was Prahlada Maharaja. A perfect example.

As a result of Prahlada's preaching to his classmates about God IN SCHOOL ....

Doesn't look like he was advocating silent prayer in some dark corner so as not to offend the atheistic teachers to me.

HARIBOL!

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

Chanting isn't praying.
Chanting is glorifying God.

They are not the same thing.

So does that mean you will let kids chant Hare Krishna out loud at school or do they have to wait until after school and weekends to do that?

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

So does that mean you will let kids chant Hare Krishna out loud at school or do they have to wait until after school and weekends to do that?

Srila Prabhupada wasn't concerned about prayer in public school.

He wanted ISKCON schools where kids could get a KC oriented education.

Who gives a damn what public schools do?

Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to have it's own schools.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada wasn't concerned about prayer in public school.
He wanted ISKCON schools where kids could get a KC oriented education.

Who gives a damn what public schools do?

Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to have it's own schools.

Apparently you give a damn what public schools do as you are advocating that kids shouldn't be allowed to pray or chant out loud at them.

theist · September 3, 2007

Chanting isn't praying.
Chanting is glorifying God.

They are not the same thing.

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

C'mon Guruvani, give it up bro.

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

C'mon Guruvani, give it up bro.

Chanting Hare Krishna is not a prayer.

It doesn't ask for anything.

Mantra means "mind release" not prayer.

The mantra is a mechanism for releasing the mind from it's attachment to matter.

There is no asking for bread or anything like that.

theist · September 3, 2007

Chanting Hare Krishna is not a prayer.
It doesn't ask for anything.

Mantra means "mind release" not prayer.

The mantra is a mechanism for releasing the mind from it's attachment to matter.

There is no asking for bread or anything like that.

Wrong. It is a petition to Srimati Radharani as Hara to please engage me in devotional service. Not only is it prayer it is the topmost prayer.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

Wrong. It is a petition to Srimati Radharani as Hara to please engage me in devotional service. Not only is it prayer it is the topmost prayer.

Wow, I didn't know that but that is awesome. You knocked it out of the yard with that one. :smash:

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

Wrong. It is a petition to Srimati Radharani as Hara to please engage me in devotional service. Not only is it prayer it is the topmost prayer.

It's not a prayer and you can't show me anywhere Srila Prabhupada ever said it was a prayer.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

It's not a prayer and you can't show me anywhere Srila Prabhupada ever said it was a prayer.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=800 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width=17></TD><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>Why Our Schools Don't Have a Prayer [Prabhupada Speaks Out]

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Read Bhagavad-gita As It Is Online

<!--

Read

KRSNA Book

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His Divine Grace

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Prabhupada

Founder-Acarya of the

Hare Krishna Movement

<HR>

</TD><TD vAlign=top width=17></TD><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>Now things have gotten to the point that we can't even have prayer in the public schools. We used to have a prayer at the beginning of each school day. But then one atheist lady (and no doubt other people behind the scenes) pushed and pushed until the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional. Now prayer in the schools is banned. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (04-12-07)

</STRONG>

This exchange between His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a divinity student took place in Los Angeles, during January of 1974.

Student: Many people are frightened about the way the schools are failing apart ... students not even learning how to read and write, many turning to drugs and robbing and raping their teachers.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. What is the value of this kind of schooling?

Student: Not an awful lot.

Srila Prabhupada: It is all cheating. You have left God out. That is the height of cheating. So naturally the rest of your so-called schooling must also be cheating.

Suppose you are doing a mathematical calculation and you start by figuring, "2 + 2 = 3." After that you may use the most sophisticated techniques and formulas, but your whole calculation will be wrong.

Student: Now things have gotten to the point that we can't even have prayer in the public schools. We used to have a prayer at the beginning of each school day. But then one atheist lady (and no doubt other people behind the scenes) pushed and pushed until the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional. Now prayer in the schools is banned.

Srila Prabhupada: But even if prayer were allowed, that would not help. Prayer is still going on in the churches, and what is the benefit? People are losing interest, because it has all become simply a ritualistic show--"Churchianity." The thing is, you have to become educated in the science of God. You must have direct, scientific experience of God. People aren't interested in dry words. They have become scientific-minded; they want results.

Student: Well, most people still have a sentimental attachment to God, so most likely they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in the schools ...

Srila Prabhupada: No. Do something practical! "Prayer" means chanting the holy name of the Lord. If you don't know the holy name of the Lord, we are giving it. You'll have no expenditure, and no loss. So why don't you try this? Chant Hare Krsna. And if you actually chant Hare Krsna, you will get scientific, realized knowledge of God--direct, personal experience of God. Then everything beneficial will follow for society.

Student: Yes. But, you see, right now you can't chant Hare Krsna in the schools. That law is still there on the books. You can't chant until somebody changes the law.

Srila Prabhupada: So my disciples can do that.

Student: They should try to fight the law?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just recently I heard that the senators and congressmen have set aside one special day each year for public prayer. Just one day--but they still want prayer. So if they actually want prayer, why are they prohibiting it all the rest of the year? Just see the contradiction! They have banned prayer because of their inexperience. And now they are experiencing, "This does not help us." Otherwise, what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that without prayer things have failed. That is a fact.

Student: You were saying earlier that fifty to sixty percent of the senators and congressmen are lawyers...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and nowadays "lawyer" means cheater. One who can tactfully break the law--he is a good lawyer. They will find some flaw in the letter of the law so that they can avoid the spirit of the law.

Student: Actually, to ban prayer in the schools they had to avoid the whole point of the First Amendment--that "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion." They said a prayer might trample an atheist's right not to pray.

Srila Prabhupada: So now the children cannot have a prayer in their schools. These government men are mostly lawyers, cheaters. Like Nixon. What is the situation now?

Student: Well, he couldn't get any less popular; so now he's getting more popular. People forget.

Srila Prabhupada: People have become cheaters, and that is why they elect such cheaters as their representatives. You Americans can make all the propaganda you want, but you will not be happy without offering prayer to God.

Student: That's right.

Srila Prabhupada: But be scientific. To begin with, follow God's laws and lead a pure life: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. If you reinstate prayer in the schools, that is not bad; but unless you first become pure, your prayer will have no practical effect. You yourselves must be free from all these impure activities. Then from among yourselves you can elect a good leader. If you really want a good leader, then you yourselves must become good. And you can become good by offering prayer to God.

Student: Forgive me, but this sounds like we're getting into some sort of vicious circle. A moment ago you said we have to become pure or good first ... otherwise our prayer will have no effect. So now how can you say we can become good by offering prayer?

Srila Prabhupada: Not just any kind of prayer. "Prayer" means that you chant the name of God. If you simply chant Hare Krsna, you will be in touch with God--the all-good. And then naturally you will become good. Why don't you try it?

Student: We have little more to lose.

Srila Prabhupada: But if you chant Hare Krsna, you will be the gainer. Just chant and see the result.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

it's legal to chant on the streets.
It's not legal to have public prayer in school.

Obey the law.

That was Srila Prabhupada's program.

Student: Yes. But, you see, right now you can't chant Hare Krsna in the schools. That law is still there on the books. You can't chant until somebody changes the law.

Srila Prabhupada: So my disciples can do that.

Student: They should try to fight the law?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just recently I heard that the senators and congressmen have set aside one special day each year for public prayer. Just one day--but they still want prayer. So if they actually want prayer, why are they prohibiting it all the rest of the year? Just see the contradiction! They have banned prayer because of their inexperience. And now they are experiencing, "This does not help us." Otherwise, what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that without prayer things have failed. That is a fact.

Student: You were saying earlier that fifty to sixty percent of the senators and congressmen are lawyers...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and nowadays "lawyer" means cheater. One who can tactfully break the law--he is a good lawyer. They will find some flaw in the letter of the law so that they can avoid the spirit of the law.

Student: Actually, to ban prayer in the schools they had to avoid the whole point of the First Amendment--that "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion." They said a prayer might trample an atheist's right not to pray.

Srila Prabhupada: So now the children cannot have a prayer in their schools. These government men are mostly lawyers, cheaters. Like Nixon. What is the situation now?

Student: Well, he couldn't get any less popular; so now he's getting more popular. People forget.

Srila Prabhupada: People have become cheaters, and that is why they elect such cheaters as their representatives. You Americans can make all the propaganda you want, but you will not be happy without offering prayer to God.

theist · September 3, 2007

It's not a prayer and you can't show me anywhere Srila Prabhupada ever said it was a prayer.

I don't have to. AM already did.

Student: Well, most people still have a sentimental attachment to God, so most likely they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in the schools ...
Srila Prabhupada: No. Do something practical! "Prayer" means chanting the holy name of the Lord. If you don't know the holy name of the Lord, we are giving it.

Now will you accept?

theist · September 3, 2007

Fair enough but then those same parents shouldn't be forced to pay taxes to support the public schools but even then I can not in good conscience try to silence prayer in any form.

This idea is known as the voucher system. It is opposed by the political liberals and atheists because they claim it benefits the theists. That is their only reason. These people are straight up demons.

The Republican's used to back the voucher system but just after Bush took office in 2001 they made a deal with Democrats not to push for it in exchange for the Dems not oppose some of their our legislation. They are all demons who have no appreciation for freedom of thought and religion.

Secular society means that there can be no state imposed religion. But the atheists interprept it to mean that there can be no knowledge of God taught and no state (the peoples) money supporting religious schools even though some of that money has been taken from the theists by force of taxes. However supporting atheistic teaching is fine with them.

Earlier on this very thread Guruvani was showing where Srila Prabhupada was declaring war on atheism. Well gotta choose which flag you will carry into battle Guruvani, a flag marked with Hanuman or a God is Dead flag. Can't carry them both.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

This idea is known as the voucher system. It is opposed by the political liberals and atheists because they claim it benefits the theists. That is their only reason. These people are straight up demons.

The Republican's used to back the voucher system but just after Bush took office in 2001 they made a deal with Democrats not to push for it in exchange for the Dems not oppose some of their our legislation. They are all demons who have no appreciation for freedom of thought and religion.

Secular society means that there can be no state imposed religion. But the atheists interprept it to mean that there can be no knowledge of God taught and no state (the peoples) money supporting religious schools even though some of that money has been taken from the theists by force of taxes. However supporting atheistic teaching is fine with them.

Earlier on this very thread Guruvani was showing where Srila Prabhupada was declaring war on atheism. Well gotta choose which flag you will carry into battle Guruvani, a flag marked with Hanuman or a God is Dead flag. Can't carry them both.

Well said. It appears that Guruvani in his hatred of Christian fanaticism is willing to become an apologist and a mouthpiece for the govenment lawyers or "cheaters" as Prabhupada called them.

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

I don't have to. AM already did.

Now will you accept?

NO.

Srila Prabhuapda is saying that they should be chanting instead of asking for bread, jobs, etc. etc.

He is not saying that chanting is praying.

He is saying that they should stop praying and start chanting.

It is called "kirtanam"

Kirtan is not a prayer.

Kirtan is a glorification of the Lord without any request attached to it.

Kirtanam doesn't mean "prayer".

Never has - never will.

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

Kirtan is not prayer.

Vandanam is prayer.

You need to get your terms straight.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 4.125

As stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (7.5.23), there are nine kinds of devotional service: hearing (śravaṇam), chanting (kīrtanam), remembering (viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam), serving (pāda-sevanam), worship of the Deity (arcanam), praying (vandanam), carrying out orders (dāsyam), serving Him as a friend (sakhyam) and sacrificing everything for the Lord (ātma-nivedanam). Although each process appears distinct, when one is situated on the absolute platform he can see that they are identical. For instance, hearing is as good as chanting, and remembering is as good as chanting or hearing. Similarly, engaging in Deity worship is as good as chanting, hearing or remembering. The devotee is expected to accept all nine processes of devotional service, but even if only one process is properly executed, he can still attain the highest position (paramahaḿsa) and go back home, back to Godhead.

The Sankirtan movement is not about doing Vandanam (prayer) in public places.

It's about doing kirtan (chanting) in public places.

Devotees don't go out on the streets to pray.

They go out on the streets to chant.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

NO.
Srila Prabhuapda is saying that they should be chanting instead of asking for bread, jobs, etc. etc.

He is not saying that chanting is praying.

He is saying that they should stop praying and start chanting.

It is called "kirtanam"

Kirtan is not a prayer.

Kirtan is a glorification of the Lord without any request attached to it.

Kirtanam doesn't mean "prayer".

Never has - never will.

We know you are going to continue to split hairs like a lawyer but will you at least now allow out loud chanting of Hare Krishna in the shools or can the kids only do that after school and on weekends? Or are you going to lock them all in a closet?

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

We know you are going to continue to split hairs like a lawyer but will you at least now allow out loud chanting of Hare Krishna in the shools or can the kids only do that after school and on weekends?

there ain't no splitting of hairs.

Kirtan is not a prayer.

Vandanam is prayer.

Srila Prabhupada never sent his devotees out on the streets to do vandanam.

You guys need to get your terms correct.

You are all mixed-up.

AncientMariner · September 3, 2007

there ain't no splitting of hairs.
Kirtan is not a prayer.

Vandanam is prayer.

Srila Prabhupada never sent his devotees out on the streets to do vandanam.

You guys need to get your terms correct.

You are all mixed-up.

Do you still support the ban on the chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra in public schools?

Guruvani · September 3, 2007

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

 <table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> kIrtana</td> <td valign="top">n. mentioning , repeating , saying , telling MBh. Pan5cat. &c. ; (%{A}) f. id. Sus3r. ; fame L.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Kirtan is not prayer.

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