Fables and Fairytales of the Bhagavatam - The Paroksha Method

[Guruvani 0]

This topic is going to deal with the paroksa method of instruction and give examples of the paroksa (indirect) method of enlightening the conditioned souls of the world through use of fables, fairytales and stories that are allegorical in nature but serving the purpose of higher knowledge.

 

Lets begin this topic with a statement from Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam Canot 4, ch. 28, verse 65 - purport.

 

 

There are many similar stories in the purāṇas for self-realization. As stated in the Vedas: parokṣa-priyā iva hi devāḥ. There are many stories in the Purāṇas that are intended to interest ordinary men in transcendental subjects, but actually these refer to real facts. They are not to be considered stories without a transcendental purpose. Some of them refer to real historical facts. One should be interested, however, in the real purport of the story. Indirect instruction is quickly understandable for a common man. Factually the path of bhakti-yoga is the path of hearing directly about the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]), but those who are not interested in hearing directly about the activities of the Lord, or who cannot understand them, can very effectively hear such stories and fables as this one narrated by Nārada Muni.

So, lets begin this topic with this instruction from Srila Prabhupada that admits and explains that there are certain stories and "fables" in the Bhagavatam and the other Puranas that serve a purpose of teaching through allegory certain concepts and principles of spiritual knowledge that are useful for the conditioned souls in helping them understand the lessons of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Srila Prabhupada points out in the purport that:

 

"those who are not interested in hearing directly about the activities of the Lord, or who cannot understand them, can very effectively hear such stories and fables as this one narrated by Nārada Muni"

 

It's with this kind of principle that the preaching of the Bhagavatam and the great acharyas sometimes lead the student to certain allegorical concepts of the origins of the jiva as being with Krishna in his lila or that we have fallen from Goloka to be born in the material world.

 

So, we have to admit that the teachings and preaching of Srila Prabhupada did in some ways mislead neophyte devotees into accepting a fictional understanding, that is more conducive to accepting and adopting devotional service, about the origins of the jiva being in Goloka as a pure servant of Krishna before falling to the material existance.

 

What we will discuss in this topic is how this concept is allegorical and usefull, but ultimately is one of the fables that is used in Bhagavat siksha to help along the neophytes who would otherwise have difficulty in grasping the more detailed and tedious siddhanta concering the origins of the jiva and truth about his eternally conditioned status.

 

Fables are fictional, but they are supposed to serve a higher purpose by making complicated concepts more easily available to the conditioned souls through a remedial course of instruction that helps along the less intelligent and the less educated.

 

The fall from Goloka idea that many of us accepted in ISKCON was actually a remedial instruction in the line of paroksa which is indirect instruction in the form of fables and fairytales.

 

It is not an actual fact as will be established through a more detailed and instructive study of the Gaudiya canon.

 

The fall from Goloka idea is a fable. It is not a fact.

 

It is a device that Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavatam both use in nurturing along neophytes to a stage where they can realize the difference between a fable and an actual fact and be at a level where higher instruction will not confuse them.

[Beggar 0]

 

So, we have to admit that the teachings and preaching of Srila Prabhupada did in some ways mislead neophyte devotees into accepting a fictional understanding, that is more conducive to accepting and adopting devotional service, about the origins of the jiva being in Goloka as a pure servant of Krishna before falling to the material existance.

 

Being seperated from our old friend, Krsna is experiential. But from the ontological viewpoint our origin is the effulgence of the Lord. The real experience of Krsna as our eternal, friend or lover etc. is actually beyond our imagination. The ontological explanation of origin of our existence is beyond the power of our intellect. "Accepting a fictional understanding" is strong language, but I guess that its a pretty good way of describing the way Prabhupada delt with concepts that he felt many would misunderstand and abuse.

[Guest guest]

Which tales are fables then? Gajendra the elephant? Maha-avatars? etc.

 

How do we identify the fable from fact? What stops us saying that the entire purana is simply a fable to help lesser minds understand God in a form they can understand?

 

Im not trying to offend anyone, and im sorry if i have. Im just curious.

[theist 1]

 

Which tales are fables then? Gajendra the elephant? Maha-avatars? etc.

 

How do we identify the fable from fact? What stops us saying that the entire purana is simply a fable to help lesser minds understand God in a form they can understand?

 

Im not trying to offend anyone, and im sorry if i have. Im just curious.

 

Yes this is an important question. I for one don't know where to draw the line in the majority of cases. The way I handle this is to just file it away until Krsna reveals the truth of the matter if He choses to do so.

 

In the case of Gajendra I don't care if the story of his life situation is historicak fact or not. For me the essence begins when he starts to offer prayers to the Lord after the croc nabbed him.

 

The instructions in those prayers I can directly learn from and apply to my spiritual life. Rather he is a character in a story or a historical personality has no bearing on my life.

[theist 1]

Are we not in the same predicament as Gajendra? We are living covered by the subtle and gross bodies and held captive by maya in a atmosphere that is not conducive for us. So for me the croc is maya which has a death grip upon us that we cannot become free of by our own endeavor.

 

Gajendra when coming to realize this spoke thus:

 

SB 8.3.1: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami continued: Thereafter, the King of the elephants, Gajendra, fixed his mind in his heart with perfect intelligence and chanted a mantra which he had learned in his previous birth as Indradyumna and which he remembered by the grace of Krishna.

SB 8.3.2: The King of the elephants, Gajendra, said: I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Person, Vasudeva [om namo bhagavate vasudevaya]. Because of Him this material body acts due to the presence of spirit, and He is therefore the root cause of everyone. He is worshipable for such exalted persons as Brahma and Siva, and He has entered the heart of every living being. Let me meditate upon Him.

SB 8.3.3: The Supreme Godhead is the supreme platform on which everything rests, the ingredient by which everything has been produced, and the person who has created and is the only cause of this cosmic manifestation. Nonetheless, He is different from the cause and the result. I surrender unto Him, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is self-sufficient in everything.

SB 8.3.4: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, by expanding His own energy, keeps this cosmic manifestation visible and again sometimes renders it invisible. He is both the supreme cause and the supreme result, the observer and the witness, in all circumstances. Thus He is transcendental to everything. May that Supreme Personality of Godhead give me protection.

SB 8.3.5: In due course of time, when all the causative and effective manifestations of the universe, including the planets and their directors and maintainers, are annihilated, there is a situation of dense darkness. Above this darkness, however, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I take shelter of His lotus feet.

SB 8.3.6: An artist onstage, being covered by attractive dresses and dancing with different movements, is not understood by his audience; similarly, the activities and features of the supreme artist cannot be understood even by the demigods or great sages, and certainly not by those who are unintelligent like animals. Neither the demigods and sages nor the unintelligent can understand the features of the Lord, nor can they express in words His actual position. May that Supreme Personality of Godhead give me protection.

SB 8.3.7: Renunciants and great sages who see all living beings equally, who are friendly to everyone and who flawlessly practice in the forest the vows of brahmacarya, vanaprastha and sannyasa desire to see the all-auspicious lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. May that same Supreme Personality of Godhead be my destination.

SB 8.3.8-9: The Supreme Personality of Godhead has no material birth, activities, name, form, qualities or faults. To fulfill the purpose for which this material world is created and destroyed, He comes in the form of a human being like Lord Rama or Lord Krishna by His original internal potency. He has immense potency, and in various forms, all free from material contamination, He acts wonderfully. He is therefore the Supreme Brahman. I offer my respects to Him.

SB 8.3.10: I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the self-effulgent Supersoul, who is the witness in everyone's heart, who enlightens the individual soul and who cannot be reached by exercises of the mind, words or consciousness.

SB 8.3.11: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is realized by pure devotees who act in the transcendental existence of bhakti-yoga. He is the bestower of uncontaminated happiness and is the master of the transcendental world. Therefore I offer my respect unto Him.

SB 8.3.12: I offer my respectful obeisances to Lord Vasudeva, who is all-pervading, to the Lord's fierce form as Lord Nrisimhadeva, to the Lord's form as an animal [Lord Varahadeva], to Lord Dattatreya, who preached impersonalism, to Lord Buddha, and to all the other incarnations. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Lord, who has no material qualities but who accepts the three qualities goodness, passion and ignorance within this material world. I also offer my respectful obeisances unto the impersonal Brahman effulgence.

SB 8.3.13: I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto You, who are the Supersoul, the superintendent of everything, and the witness of all that occurs. You are the Supreme Person, the origin of material nature and of the total material energy. You are also the owner of the material body. Therefore, You are the supreme complete. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You.

SB 8.3.14: My Lord, You are the observer of all the objectives of the senses. Without Your mercy, there is no possibility of solving the problem of doubts. The material world is just like a shadow resembling You. Indeed, one accepts this material world as real because it gives a glimpse of Your existence.

SB 8.3.15: My Lord, You are the cause of all causes, but You Yourself have no cause. Therefore You are the wonderful cause of everything. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You, who are the shelter of the Vedic knowledge contained in the sastras like the Pancaratras and Vedanta-sutra, which are Your representations, and who are the source of the parampara system. Because it is You who can give liberation, You are the only shelter for all transcendentalists. Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto You.

SB 8.3.16: My Lord, as the fire in arani wood is covered, You and Your unlimited knowledge are covered by the material modes of nature. Your mind, however, is not attentive to the activities of the modes of nature. Those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge are not subject to the regulative principles directed in the Vedic literatures. Because such advanced souls are transcendental, You personally appear in their pure minds. Therefore I offer my respectful obeisances unto You.

SB 8.3.17: Since an animal such as I has surrendered unto You, who are supremely liberated, certainly You will release me from this dangerous position. Indeed, being extremely merciful, You incessantly try to deliver me. By your partial feature as Paramatma, You are situated in the hearts of all embodied beings. You are celebrated as direct transcendental knowledge, and You are unlimited. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 8.3.18: My Lord, those who are completely freed from material contamination always meditate upon You within the cores of their hearts. You are extremely difficult to attain for those like me who are too attached to mental concoction, home, relatives, friends, money, servants and assistants. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, uncontaminated by the modes of nature. You are the reservoir of all enlightenment, the supreme controller. I therefore offer my respectful obeisances unto You.

SB 8.3.19: After worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, those who are interested in the four principles of religion, economic development, sense gratification and liberation obtain from Him what they desire. What then is to be said of other benedictions? Indeed, sometimes the Lord gives a spiritual body to such ambitious worshipers. May that Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unlimitedly merciful, bestow upon me the benediction of liberation from this present danger and from the materialistic way of life.

SB 8.3.20-21: Unalloyed devotees, who have no desire other than to serve the Lord, worship Him in full surrender and always hear and chant about His activities, which are most wonderful and auspicious. Thus they always merge in an ocean of transcendental bliss. Such devotees never ask the Lord for any benediction. I, however, am in danger. Thus I pray to that Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is eternally existing, who is invisible, who is the Lord of all great personalities, such as Brahma, and who is available only by transcendental bhakti-yoga. Being extremely subtle, He is beyond the reach of my senses and transcendental to all external realization. He is unlimited, He is the original cause, and He is completely full in everything. I offer my obeisances unto Him.

SB 8.3.22-24: The Supreme Personality of Godhead creates His minor parts and parcels, the jiva-tattva, beginning with Lord Brahma, the demigods and the expansions of Vedic knowledge [Sama, Rig, Yajur and Atharva] and including all other living entities, moving and nonmoving, with their different names and characteristics. As the sparks of a fire or the shining rays of the sun emanate from their source and merge into it again and again, the mind, the intelligence, the senses, the gross and subtle material bodies, and the continuous transformations of the different modes of nature all emanate from the Lord and again merge into Him. He is neither demigod nor demon, neither human nor bird or beast. He is not woman, man, or neuter, nor is He an animal. He is not a material quality, a fruitive activity, a manifestation or nonmanifestation. He is the last word in the discrimination of "not this, not this," and He is unlimited. All glories to the Supreme Personality of Godhead!

SB 8.3.25: I do not wish to live anymore after I am released from the attack of the crocodile. What is the use of an elephant's body covered externally and internally by ignorance? I simply desire eternal liberation from the covering of ignorance. That covering is not destroyed by the influence of time.

SB 8.3.26: Now, fully desiring release from material life, I offer my respectful obeisances unto that Supreme Person who is the creator of the universe, who is Himself the form of the universe and who is nonetheless transcendental to this cosmic manifestation. He is the supreme knower of everything in this world, the Supersoul of the universe. He is the unborn, supremely situated Lord. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.

SB 8.3.27: I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme, the Supersoul, the master of all mystic yoga, who is seen in the core of the heart by perfect mystics when they are completely purified and freed from the reactions of fruitive activity by practicing bhakti-yoga.

SB 8.3.28: My Lord, You are the controller of formidable strength in three kinds of energy. You appear as the reservoir of all sense pleasure and the protector of the surrendered souls. You possess unlimited energy, but You are unapproachable by those who are unable to control their senses. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You again and again.

SB 8.3.29: I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by whose illusory energy the jiva, who is part and parcel of God, forgets his real identity because of the bodily concept of life. I take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose glories are difficult to understand.

SB 8.3.30: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami continued: When the King of the elephants was describing the supreme authority, without mentioning any particular person, he did not invoke the demigods, headed by Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Indra and Candra. Thus none of them approached him. However, because Lord Hari is the Supersoul, Purushottama, the Personality of Godhead, He appeared before Gajendra.

 

 

 

And when we realize we are presently stuck in the same predicament we should offer prayers exactly like Gajendra and with his fervor. My God,just see the quality of the knowldge presented here in just these 30 verses.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

In one of my less sober moments recently, the following wild speculation entered my mind:

 

What if the story of Sri Narasimhadev (half-man/half-lion incarnation) is also an allegory?

 

Perhaps, rather than the fearful form depicted in the various paintings, when Hiranyakasipu smashed the pillar and the pieces crumbled to the floor, the Supreme Lord appeared in the form of Hiranyakasipu's mother-in-law standing there with her sari-bag in one hand and her cat Snookums in the other.

 

Seeing the abuse her son-in-law was hurling at her grandson, Mother-in-Law began to mercilessly tongue-lash Hiranyakasipu as the great demon cowered in fear.

 

After several hours of stern speech, Mother-in-Law delivered the coup de grace to the weeping demon on the front doorstep in front of all the gathered relatives and neighbors, at which time, Hiranyakasipu voided his bowels into his dhoti.

 

***

 

Anyways, Guruvani Prabhu. That was a great start for a thread. Mega-dittos!! Of course, let's hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a pissing contest like so many others

 

 

Which tales are fables then? Gajendra the elephant? Maha-avatars? etc.

 

How do we identify the fable from fact? What stops us saying that the entire purana is simply a fable to help lesser minds understand God in a form they can understand?

 

Im not trying to offend anyone, and im sorry if i have. Im just curious.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Which tales are fables then? Gajendra the elephant? Maha-avatars? etc.

 

How do we identify the fable from fact? What stops us saying that the entire purana is simply a fable to help lesser minds understand God in a form they can understand?

 

Im not trying to offend anyone, and im sorry if i have. Im just curious.

 

Ok, to know everything about what is allegory and what is history or factual is certainly beyond my knowledge at this point. I certainly have not mastered the Bhagavatam to be able to say what is allegorical and what is factual.

 

What we can do is look for places in the Bhagavatam where it is openly explained and admitted that some part is allegorical.

 

One portion of the Bhagavatam that is openly admitted to be allegorical is the story or fable of King Puranjana. This fable is a story that was narrated by Narada Muni to King Pracinabarhisat.

 

If you want to read this allegorical lesson, then turn to Canto 4 Ch. 25 and proceed through to ch. 28.

 

In these chapters the allgorical fable of King Puranjana is fully described in the lessons of Narada Muni to King Pracinabarhisat.

 

I am going through these chapters myself and will be posting relevant references that shed some light on this paroksa method of instruction which uses fables, fiction stories and allegorical characters in the lessons of the Bhagavat and the great Vedic rishis of yore.

 

Everyone is invited to research this paroksa method in the scriptures and share with the rest of us anything they can find that sheds some light on how and why this paroksa method is employed in the teachings of great rishis, gurus and acharyas.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Anyways, Guruvani Prabhu. That was a great start for a thread. Mega-dittos!! Of course, let's hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a pissing contest like so many others

 

Of course, perhaps, Vaishnava pissing contests are yet another form of "paroksa" instruction. I say this with all sincerity.

[Guruvani 0]

traditionally, only the parts of the Bhagavat where it is explicitly explained to be allorgorical, is it accepted as allegorical.

 

So, before anyone goes to portray something as allegorical they need to show proof in the shastra itself where the story is acclaimed as allegorical.

 

so, unless you can find and show evidence that a story or depiction is allegorical, then you should not be describing it in an allegorical way.

 

We cannot invent our own allegorical explanations.

 

If the shastra does not explain how it is allegorical then we should accept it as factual.

 

So, nobody has any license to go and manufacture some allegorical meaning to anything in the scriptures.

 

The scriptures clearly explain which stories are fables and allegories.

 

I have shown that there is an explanation and a statement in the Bhagavatam that the story of King Puranjana is an allegorical story or fable as Srila Prabhupada states.

 

So, before you clowns go getting all out of line and getting confused about what is allegory and what is fact, you have to show proof somewhere in an authorized text that the story or the instructions are admitted to be allegorical.

 

There is no shastric support for the fall from Goloka theory, so in light of that we must necessarily come to understand that Srila Prabhupada's alluding to a fall from Goloka as the origin of the jiva as nothing more than an allegorical story intended to appease the minds of beginners who weren't up to hearing a tedious explanation that might make them confused and going away with some impersonalist misunderstanding because they failed to grasp the fundamental truth that Krishna is the source of the brahmajyoti and that the brahmajyoti is simultaneously one with yet different from Lord Krishna.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Of course, perhaps, Vaishnava pissing contests are yet another form of "paroksa" instruction. I say this with all sincerity.

 

aha!

finally someone has seen through me!!

 

Next thing you know they will be asking me to make commercials for yellowbook.com !!!!!

[Guest guest]

Traditionally a lot of such scriptural stories were seen as merely allegorical in all 4 Vaishnava sampradayas. Yet our movement adopted a very literal and rigid understanding of the scripture and general instructions coming from all "authorized" sources (guru, sadhu and shastra). I am not sure if it was all coming from Srila Prabhupada, but all independent thinking was treated as a "speculation" and even as deviation. We have a case where Srila Prabhupada hardly EVER quotes his guru but to most of his disciples anything not expressly coming from Prabhupada is suspect and most likely a speculation. This type of cult mentality persists to this very day, stifling both the development of our society and any hope for a dialogue with scientific or scholarly circles.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam 6.5

 

Putana represents the fake guru who teaches bhukti and mukti, material enjoyment and liberation. Devotees attached to bhukti and mukti are like Putana. Being merciful to the pure devotees, Krishna as a baby, killed Putana to protect the devotees' newly appearing affection for him.

The cart represents the load produced by old and recently acquired bad habits, by laxity and by pride. The mood created by thinking of baby Krishna breaks the cart, or removes this evil.

The whirlwind demon represents pride in being learned, and the consequent use of faulty arguments and dry logic, the quest for liberation, and association with such people. This includes all types atheists believing in material causality. Being merciful on seeing the affection for the devotee to Him baby Krishna kills that whirlwind and removes the obstacles to worship.

Pride stemming from intoxication with wealth, which breeds violence, illicit sex and addiction to wine, and finally loose speaking and shameless brutality to other living beings, is represented by the Yamala Arjuna trees. Krishna, being merciful, removes this sin in breaking the Yamala Arjuna trees.

Being controlled by greed and the sinful activities caused by it are represented by Vatsasura. By Krishna's mercy this fault is vanquished.

False dealing due to deceit and cheating are represented by Bakasura. Without eliminating this, pure bhakti does not appear.

The sinful mentality to do violence to others is represented by Aghasura. This tendency must be removed. It is one of the offenses.

Skepticism due to practicing jnana and karma and disregard for the sweetness of Krishna from attachment to the Lord's majestic aspect are presented by Brahma when he was put into illusion by Krishna.

Complete ignorance of spiritual truth, originating from material intelligence, lack of spiritual intuition and foolishness, which is contrary to spiritual knowledge, is represented by Dhenuka.

Pride, deceit, harming others, cruelty, represented by Kaliya must be given up by the devotee.

Any type of conflict such as argument, disagreement with other sampradayas, malice to devatas, fighting are represented by the forest fire.

Pralambasura represents lust for women, greed, desire for worship and position. These must also be given up.

The forest fire which Krishna swallowed represents the obstacles that atheists create against dharma and preachers of dharma.

The brahmanas performing yajna represent indifference to Krishna caused by identity with varnasrama or absorption in karma khanda.

Worship of Indra signifies worship of many gods, or worship of self as God.

Varuna symbolizes intoxicants. Some people mistakenly think that liquor will increase spiritual bliss. Such thinking must be given up.

The snake which attempted to swallow Nanda Maharaja represents Mayavada and similar philosophies which try to swallow up the real nature of bhakti. Mayavada association must be avoided.

Sankhacuda symbolizes desire for fame and desire for women.

Aristasura the bull demon symbolizes disregard for bhakti and attraction for cheating religion.

The illusion of being a great devotee or acarya, is represented by Kesi. Lording it over others and material pride must be given up.

Vyomasura represents thieves and fake devotees.

 

[Guruvani 0]

when it comes to the pastimes of Lord Krishna I think we have to be very careful with this allegorical thinking, because it is my view that these characters that Bhaktivinode describe here as allegorical are both allegorical in one sense and factual in the sense that these things became personified in the pastimes of the Lord.

 

I have always known and felt that these characters, demons and spirits of Krishna's pastimes represented certain evils and sins of the world, yet these sins and these vices became personified in the pastimes of the Lord and these pastimes actually occured.

 

Another thing we need to remember is that if we go to searching for archaeological evidence about the Krishna pastimes and Dwaraka, Mathura etc, we are going to be frustrated because all these pastimes are manifested by the internal potency of the Lord and they do not leave archaeological evidence behind.

 

I firmly believe that there is an allegorical and literal aspect to the demons and pastimes of Lord Krishna.

 

For those who presume to present them as purely allegorical all I can say is woe unto you and offer them respects from a distance.

[muralidhar_das 0]

I entirely agree with what you say.

 

One thing that I have learned from reading Sri Krishna Chaitanya by Professor Sanyal is that it is a mistake to think of Krishna's pastimes that are described in the Bhagavatam as history.

 

Professor Sanyal makes the point that when the Avatara descends he appears in order to engage in Leela, and his Leela is transcendental. The people who see him have Darshan because they are evolved beings who can "realize God directly". When they have the Lord Avatar's darshan their experiences are not "material" and what they see is not "history". The Bhagavatam then is a book detailing the progressive realizations of sages who are having darshan of the Leela of Bhagavan.

 

If we read the Bhagavatam and meditate on it, then if we have faith in Krishna we find he will be born as a reality within the world of our consciousness.

 

Just after he is born, inevitably I will find that a person who I respect like my mother may try and kill my spiritual conception (the word conception is related to pregnancy) and because I respect that mother/father/guru/teacher I will face great distress. But Krishna kills the false advisor (Putana/Guru) and attracts me with his beauty.

 

After this, reading the Bhagavatam even more, I find that if I have faith in Krishna I don't have to worry about "ghosts" and black cats inauspicious omens that are in front of me. Krishna kills my superstitious fears, which are symbolized by Sakatasura.

 

In this way, my reading of the Bhagavatam brings me towards the point where I can "realize God directly" in my own life.

 

This is the teaching of Thakur Bhaktivinode, in Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam 6.5

[Guruvani 0]

 

I entirely agree with what you say.

 

One thing that I have learned from reading Sri Krishna Chaitanya by Professor Sanyal is that it is a mistake to think of Krishna's pastimes that are described in the Bhagavatam as history.

 

Professor Sanyal makes the point that when the Avatara descends he appears in order to engage in Leela, and his Leela is transcendental. The people who see him have Darshan because they are evolved beings who can "realize God directly". When they have the Lord Avatar's darshan their experiences are not "material" and what they see is not "history". The Bhagavatam then is a book detailing the progressive realizations of sages who are having darshan of the Leela of Bhagavan.

 

If we read the Bhagavatam and meditate on it, then if we have faith in Krishna we find he will be born as a reality within the world of our consciousness.

 

Just after he is born, inevitably I will find that a person who I respect like my mother may try and kill my spiritual conception (the word conception is related to pregnancy) and because I respect that mother/father/guru/teacher I will face great distress. But Krishna kills the false advisor (Putana/Guru) and attracts me with his beauty.

 

After this, reading the Bhagavatam even more, I find that if I have faith in Krishna I don't have to worry about "ghosts" and black cats inauspicious omens that are in front of me. Krishna kills my superstitious fears, which are symbolized by Sakatasura.

 

In this way, my reading of the Bhagavatam brings me towards the point where I can "realize God directly" in my own life.

 

This is the teaching of Thakur Bhaktivinode, in Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam 6.5

 

I will have to check it out, but I think I remember reading in Krishna Book that these demons in Krishna lila were many times mystic yogis from siddha-loka.

 

They personified certain evils and vices of the world and came down to participate in the pastimes of the Lord as demons and enemies.

 

So, allegorically they did reprsent these things that Bhaktivinode mentioned, yet at the same time they were actual beings coming to do their part in the pastimes of the Lord, either out of devotion or out of envy and hatred for the Lord Krishna.

 

Bhaktivinode probably had a particular audience in mind when he wrote of these allegorical meanings and so he emphasised that aspect in that circumstance.

 

That is not to say that Bhaktivinode did not understand that these demons of Krishna lila were actual personifications of these vices and sins and had actual forms and functions in Krishna lila.

 

According to his audience and his intentions he would emphasize a particular aspect of these characters in his writings.

 

Bhaktivinode did come from a section of society that had serious prejudice against the Bhagavtam and thought it to be full of crazy ideas.

 

Maybe in his preaching mission he tried to extend a hand to these people and show them a way to think of Srimad Bhagavatam aside from a literal understanding which is not possible for sections of Hindu society that had embraced Chrisitanity and Brahmoism as did Bhaktivinode before his conversion to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Bhaktivinode admits that earlier in his life he had a bad opinion of the Bhagavatam and thought it to be full of crazy ideas that had no place in modern society.

 

After his conversion, maybe he tried to reach out to some of his fellow citizens who were suffering from the same prejudices that he had also been a victim of before finding Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his teachings.

 

so, he tried to show some allegorical meanings to Bhagavatam in that spirit.

[theist 1]

 

In one of my less sober moments recently, the following wild speculation entered my mind:

 

What if the story of Sri Narasimhadev (half-man/half-lion incarnation) is also an allegory?

 

I have many times wondered the same thing and have come to the conclusion (for myself not pushing anything here) that it doesn't matter a fig to me either way.

 

The fact is the Lord IS living within the pillar and will protect His surrendered devotee in whatever way He deems approriate. And no prior arrangements by the demons can protect them even if acquired from the highest persons in this universe.

 

On Krsna lila. I have been floating my view for some time now that I consider Krsna lila literal but not in the 3d sense we usually think of. I believe Krsna incarnated himself literarily. When we read Krsna book all of us at one time or another have had the realization that it is alive, that Krsna is right there in prsent time dancing on the heads of the Kaliya serpent.

 

What I am suggesting is very different from saying that He is a creation of someone's mind. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

 

What difference to Krsna is there between a literary incarnaton and a 3d "literal" one. Krsna's pastimes are Absolute either way.

 

I see no loss to anyone who believes either way as long as they recognize the Absolute presence of the Lord.

[muralidhar_das 0]

 

 

Bhaktivinode admits that earlier in his life he had a bad opinion of the Bhagavatam and thought it to be full of crazy ideas that had no place in modern society.

 

After his conversion, maybe he tried to reach out to some of his fellow citizens who were suffering from the same prejudices that he had also been a victim of before finding Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his teachings.

 

so, he tried to show some allegorical meanings to Bhagavatam in that spirit.

 

This description of the demons as "representative" of various evil spiritual forces is given in Sri Krishna Samhita and in Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam as well. In "Bhagavat Samplap" by Bhaktivinode Thakur's disciple, Sri Bhakti Pradip Tirtha, he also discusses about how the demons are representing "evil tendencies".

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj told me that Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam is a more suitable book for Westerners than Jaiva Dharma because it is more "scientific". Guru Maharaj told me to read Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam.

[gHari 0]

So dangerous.

[Beggar 0]

 

So dangerous.

Any more dangerous than using a fertile imagination to interpolate that the gopas and gopis of Goloka Vrdanavan fall down or at least dream that they fall down and live in the lower species in the material world?

[Guest guest]

Interesting thread, and I think that the answer to the basic question asked lies in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Krsna-samhita as has been put forward already but also in Shukavak Dasa's laudable book, Hindu Encounter with Modernity. However, my take is that there is no harm involved if someone wishes to interpret the Puranic stories as literal historical facts, if thinking so is more conducive to that individual's spiritual progress. I base this conclusion on the fact that any spiritual pursuit is necessarily at least to some extent irrational, since the very fundament of such a quest is predicated on a premise which flies in the face of modern scientific scholarship - the existence of God and of the soul, and in our specific case, many other things as well, such as reincarnation, the reality of subtle and spiritual realms etc.

 

Having said this, some of the Vedic stories are certainly parables and allegories. That of King Puranjana in the Bhagavata Purana is well-known, and I suspect that there are undoubtedly many other narrations which would fall under this category as well. Mahaprabhu said that in each and every verse of sastra, there are numerous meanings that can be deduced. The literal meaning of a verse is called mukhya-vrtti, and gauna-vrtti refers to indirect interpretations that can be made. Each sadhaka is influenced by the three modes of material nature differently, and each has his own karmic inheritance (what I just wrote here is itself mythological speak according to contemporary thinking), and this is what determines what a person can psychologically and intellectually appreciate and accept. In all of this, it is the relentless strive for bhakti to Bhagavan which is essential, and one should hold on to everything that aids one in acheving this goal, whilst comprehending that for other devotees, other elements may be more important, and there ought to be mutual respect from everyone concerned, in that regard.

 

Once more, this brings us back to Saptama Gosvami Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who developed the concept of the Saragrahi Vaisnava, i.e. a mature, realised devotee of God who is able to sift through received wisdom and differing opinions from various acaryas and sort out the essential from the non-essential, and thereby progress in spiritual life. My personal approach to the Puranas is that which was mentioned by Guruvani, namely that I favour a metaphorical description of a given section of scripture if it is overtly allegorical, otherwise, I primarily accept mukhya-vrtti or a literal rendering, whilst remaining open to the possibility that useful insights from an indirect understanding or gauna-vrtti may become manifest in due course. This is necessarily a subjective decision, one which will not be applicable to all aspirant transcendentalists.

 

In the end, I think it is fair to say that TRUTH (what a big word, but what does it really mean?) will be revealed in our hearts when Krsna decides that we are ready to receive his mercy and grace, and this in its full sense can only be when we have crossed beyond this samsara and pulled the syama-complexioned Lord to ourselves by the strength of our devotion and spiritual purity, in the mature, saturated stage of our practice. I, for one, hope that IF that day ever arrives for myself, I will be blessed with the vision of Lord Govinda with his cows at the foot of Giri Govardhana, since the Govardhana-dharana-lila is very dear to my heart.

 

Hare Krsna to you all!

[Guruvani 0]

The problem I have with accepting for example the demons of Krishna-lila as allegorical figures is that you are only a small baby step away from Krishna thus being an allegorical figure, Nanda Maharaja being an allegorical figure and the Vrindavan pastimes as being allegorical stories and fables.

 

The next thing you know Dhruva Maharaja is allegorical, Prahlad Maharaja is allegorical and ultimately Arjuna is allegorical as well as Maharaja Parikshit, Sukadeva Goswami etc. etc. ad infinitum.

 

As I stated already the is an allegorical aspect to everything and everyone in the Vedic texts, yet at the same time these aspects of God and of the world all ultimately take form and shape in the minds and hearts of living beings.

 

Sure, Nanda Maharaja is an allegorical figure in one sense, yet at the same time the "principle" of "Nanda Maharaja" or could we say the character of Nanda Maharaja became personified in the pastimes of the Lord as he descended 5000 years ago by his internal potency in the land of India.

 

I think there is an allegorical aspect to most everything in the Bhagavat, yet at the same time these characters, qualities and principles become personified in many ways and at many times in the history of the world.

 

Narada Muni could also be seen as allegorical, but are we going to write off Narada Muni as an actual person who actually performed the deeds and acts that he has been attributed in the Bhagavat?

 

The first time I read Krishna Book I understood that Jarasandha was actually a description of my own sinful material existence, yet at the same time I think that there actually was a character of Jarasandha that was personified in Krishna's pastimes on Earth.

 

As Krishna was tearing in half Jarasandha I understood that Krishna was tearing in half my own false ego and false identity with this body.

 

But, I never wrote off Jarasandha as being an actual character that was personified in the pastimes of Krishna.

 

Go back to Krishna Book and read about the killing of Jarasandha with the understanding that Jarasandha is none other than your own false ego and false identity that has been put together by the witch called Maya.

[Guest guest]

"The Mahabharata is a poem and not history, but it is clearly a poem

founded on a great historical event, traditionally preserved in memo-

ry; some of the figures connected with it, Dhritarashtra, Parikshit,

for instance, certainly existed and the story of the part played by

Krishna as leader, warrior and statesman can be accepted as probable

in itself and to all appearance founded on a tradition which can be

given a historical value and has not the air of a myth or a sheer poe-

tical invention.

 

That is as much as can be positively said from the point of view of

the theoretical reason as to the historic figure of the man Krishna;

but in my view there is much more than that in it and I have always

regarded- the incarnation as a fact and accepted the historicity of

Krishna as I accept the historicity of Christ.

The story of Brindavan is another matter; it does not enter into the

main story of the Mahabharata and has a Puranic origin and it could be

maintained that it was intended all along to have a symbolic charac-

ter.

 

At one time I accepted that explanation, but I had to abandon it af-

terwards; there is nothing in the Puranas that betrays any such inten-

tion.

It seems to me that it is related as something that actually occurred

or occurs somewhere.

The Gopis are to them realities and not symbols.

It was for them at the least an occult truth, and occult and symbolic

are not the same thing; the symbol may be only a significant mental

construction or only a fanciful invention, but the occult is a reality

which is actual somewhere, behind the material scene as it were and

can have its truth for the terrestrial life and its influence upon it

may even embody itself there.

The Lila of the Gopis seems to be conceived as something which is al-

ways going on in a divine Gokul and which projected itself in an eart-

hly Brindavan and can always be realised and its meaning made actual

in the soul.

 

It is to be presumed that the writers of the Puranas took it as having

been actually projected on earth in the life of the incarnate Krishna

and it has been so accepted by the religious mind of India.

These questions and the speculations to which they have given rise ha-

ve no indispensable connection with the spiritual life.

There what matters is the contact with Krishna and the growth towards

the Krishna consciousness, the presence, the spiritual relation, the

union in the soul and till that is reached, the aspiration, the growth

in bhakti and whatever illumination one can get on the way.

 

To one who has had these things, lived in the presence, heard the voi-

ce, known Krishna as Friend or Lover, Guide, Teacher, Master or,

still more, has had his whole consciousness changed by the contact, or

felt the presence within him, an such questions have only an outer and

superficial interest.

So also, to one who has had contact with the inner Brindavan and the

Lila of the Gopis, made the surrender and undergone the spell of the

joy and the beauty or even only turned to the sound of the flute, the

rest hardly matters.

 

But from another point of view, if one can accept the historical rea-

lity of the incarnation, there is this great spiritual gain that one

has a point d'appul for a more concrete realisation in the conviction

that once at least the Divine has visibly touched the earth, made the

complete manifestation possible, made it possible for the divine su-

pernature to descend into this evolving but still very imperfect ter-

restrial nature."

 

Sri Aurobindo

[theist 1]

 

So dangerous.

I agree gHari. To let the conditioned mind pick and choose what is history and what is allegory is dangerous. That is why I chose not to be concerned with figuring these things out. By only trying to assimilate that which is most essential in each story I can receive the highest benefit. What benefit is there is believing the story of Gajendra is history or fable? How can believing one or the other save us at the time of death or lead us into real life with Krsna. It's the prayers and teaching in those prayers exchanged between the person OR character Gajendra as offered to Krsna and His response and instructions to Gajendra that contain the real nectar.

 

My point is that we needn't become excercised in mind when we encounter someone who thinks differently than we do on this issue. If I take the story of Gajendra as fable and someone else thinks differently I have no right to disturb his mind with an argument over the issue. IMO that would be an act of violence.

[Nrsinghadev 0]

 

Krsna's pastimes cannot be imitated. Krsna married over I6,000

wives and kept them nicely in I6,000 palaces, but an ordinary man cannot

even keep one wife nicely. It is not that Krsna just spoke so many

wonderful things; He also acted wonderfully. We should not believe one

thing that Krsna says or does and reject another; if belief is there, it

must be full belief.

In this regard, there is a story of Narada Muni, who was once asked

by a brahmana: "Oh, you are going to meet the Lord? Will you please ask

Him when I'm going to get my salvation?"

"All right," Narada agreed. "I shall ask Him."

As Narada proceeded, he met a cobbler who was sitting under a tree

mending shoes, and the cobbler similarly asked Narada, "Oh, you are

going to see God? Will you please inquire of Him when my salvation will

come?"

When Narada Muni went to the Vaikuntha planets, he fulfilled their

request and asked Narayana (God) about the salvation of the brahmana and

the cobbler, and Narayana replied, "After leaving this body, the cobbler

shall come here to me."

"What about the brahmana?" Narada asked.

"He will have to remain there for a number of births. I do not know

when he is coming."

Narada Muni was astonished, and he finally said, "I can't

understand the mystery of this."

"That you will see," Narayana said. "When they ask you what I am

doing in My abode, tell them that I am threading the eye of a needle

with an elephant."

When Narada returned to earth and approached the brahmana, the

brahmana said, "Oh, you have seen the Lord? What was He doing?"

"He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle," Narada

answered.

"I don't believe such nonsense," the brahmana replied. Narada could

immediately understand that the man had no faith and that he was simply

a reader of books.

Narada then left and went on to the cobbler, who asked him, "Oh,

you have seen the Lord? Tell me, what was He doing?"

"He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle," Narada

replied.

The cobbler began to weep, "Oh, my Lord is so wonderful, He can do

anything."

"Do you really believe that the Lord can push an elephant through

the hole of a needle?" Narada asked.

"Why not?" the cobbler said, "Of course I believe it."

"How is that?"

"You can see that I am sitting under this banyan tree," the cobbler

answered, "and you can see that so many fruits are falling daily, and in

each seed there is a banyan tree like this one. If, within a small seed

there can be a big tree like this, is it difficult to accept that the

Lord is pushing an elephant through the eye of a needle?"

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranams,

 

the above quoted, the well known story of the brahmana and the cobbler, is quite relevant to this topic.

 

Belief or faith in the revealed scriptures is being questioned here, but who are we to question Bhagavatam, and how do we question it? What do we use to question the Bhagavatam? Our limited senses, our limited intellect and limited intelligence.

 

The story of Puranjana was a clear allegory as confirmed by the scripture itself (S.B.4.ch.29), as well as by guru (in the form of Srila Prabhupada), so there is doubt about it. However, unless sri guru and/or scripture tells us whether a particular story is an allegory or not, we as conditioned souls should not make any speculation about the stories and simply accept them as truth, however incredible it seems to our dull senses (again see the story of the cobbler and the brahmana).

 

Otherwise, many conflicting ideas will surface, in particular ideas conflicting with the views and findings of modern science, so this brings us to a crossroads. Do we take the smooth highway of faith in Guru and Gauranga, or do we take the rocky road of faith in material science and perhaps make an attempt somehow to bring the two together? Which road to Krishna will be quicker? Thinking like this, the road of aligning scripture and material science fast becomes more like a detour. A detour not without any dangers mind you. There may be some deep, dark potholes in the rocky road which could bring one's vehicle to a full stop, leaving you stranded. Potholes of lost faith.

 

Objections may be raised to those devotees who advocate Prabhupada's "the moon is further than the sun", or the scripture's "Ugrasena's bodyguards" ideas at universities across America. They could be scolded for doing so by neophyte devotees who's faith in Krishna and scripture is not so firm; they will most certainly be ridiculed by the atheists, and the neutral student who hears these devotees speak like this will think they have lost all their sanity and will be repelled from Krishna consciousness for at least one lifetime.

 

The refutations to such objections are that the uttama adikhari will no doubt praise such devotees who advocate their guru's teachings in an unadulterated fashion, and who have full faith in the scriptures.

 

For those who ridicule such faithful devotees, either atheists, neutral people or neophyte devotees, Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written in his song Kabe Habe Bolo:

 

When, on the banks of the Ganga in Navadvipa, will I run about, calling out the names of Gauranga and Nityananda without duplicity, dancing and singing like a madman, completely oblivious to public opinion and the outside world?

Never mind that they shall be called lunatics by the general public. But who is actually crazy? Prabhupada has written a brilliant article on this called "Who is crazy?" to quote but one line:

 

Is this not crazy? If a person identifies with something he is not, he is considered crazy. The conclusion is that one who identifies with the body cannot really be considered sane. This, then, is a challenge to the world: Whoever claims God's property or earth as belonging to his body, which is constantly changing, can only be considered a crazy man.

So let them think we are crazy, that is not our goal, to try to straighten everything out to everyone. Our goal is eternal life full of bliss, happiness and knowledge in Goloka Vrindavana. There is no harm for a devotee who takes the whole bhagavatam literally, will not Krishna be pleased by such a firm faith of His devotee? So rather expect that devotee to advance more quick.

 

As for the neutral student, at first it sounds plain wrong that the neutral student is now totally repelled from the path of Bhakti yoga, but in the back of the mind a lightbulb starts shining - "karma". For all we know these neutral minded people commited a serious offense to a Vaishnava in their previous lives without having begged forgiveness, and are now suffering for it in this way that they are meeting Vaishnavas due to pious activities but are repelled by them due to the immensely destructive Vaishnava aparadha. Of course, this is speculation, but suffice to say that anything that happens has it's divine reasons. My guru maharaj always says, whatever happens by the will of Supreme Lord is for the eternal benefit of all.

 

Doesn't make sense? God cannot be explained by rational thought. God is beyond reason. Adokshaja. Inconceivable, beyond our capabilities of understanding through mind, senses and intellect. Similarly, the Srimad Bhagavatam is non-different from Krishna, so the information contained in it must be equally inconceivable. So in order to realize the truth of the bhagavatam, a transcendental medium is required, a vessel, and this is sri guru.

 

 

Om ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana-shalakaya cakshur unmilitam yena tasmai sri gurave namah

 

I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance, with the torchlight of knowledge.

Truth is revealed by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, not by one's own endeavours. By taking full faith in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as being Radha and Krishna combined, one has to accept the full authority of the Bhagavatam, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself declared it to be the most important scripture. So whether it has been changed or adulterated since it's earliest conception is irrelevant due to Mahaprabhu's approval of the Bhagavatam during His time on this earth.

 

Lord Rsabadeva instructs us to have full faith in the scriptures(S.B.5.5.13).

 

Jaya Gurudev!

Gaura Premanande! Hari Haribol!

[gHari 0]

 

Any more dangerous than using a fertile imagination to interpolate that the gopas and gopis of Goloka Vrdanavan fall down or at least dream that they fall down and live in the lower species in the material world?

I don't think I've ever heard either the fall-scenario or the daydream-fall-no-fall-scenario presume to trivialize the position of the gopis or the gopas in this way. Such a lack of integrity always hurts whatever position we are attached to. One lie is enough to alert the reader to the fact that these words are not sponsored by Paramatma - as does the sarcasm and cynicism that so often fouls the heated poles of the great debate of the Age. It is not us and them; it is us and us. From that vantage, adrenalin will not cloud the intelligence.