Is Lord Shiva the son of Brahma?

[Guruvani 0]

Guest3 never posts any scripture to support his foolish sentimental claims about Siva being supreme over Vishnu, Krishna and Rama.

 

He talks about how Krishna and Rama worshiped Siva, but he denies that shastra also shows that Siva worshiped Krishna and Vishnu.

 

So, he doesn't want to have a proper discussion or debate.

He jsut wants to come in making all sort of unsupported, unsubstantiated and unverified claims about the ontological position of Siva in the Hindu pantheon.

 

 

So, he is here to vent anger and launch foul accusations based on nothing more than his own ignorance of what the Hindu scriptures actually say about the different devas of the Hindu pantheon.

 

He has no authority behind his claims.

 

He thinks that because he believes something that it must be true, even if it cannot be supported with any proper Hindu scripture.

[Guest guest]

Any topic concerning Lord Siva is a spiritual discussion, and those who hold him dear are not only allowed here, they are appreciated.

 

The symptom of kanistha adhikari is that they fight over the supremacy of their god. However, this is not a necessary fight, because if we really want to discover the true glories of Lord Rama, Lord Krsna, Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, and even Lord Jesus Christ, we analyze not their effect on their following, rather their transcendent relationships with each other. What do we find? No war, not one-upsmanship, no discord at all. Arjuna is a hero to the Vaisnava, so when he meets Lord Siva and wins his blessings and his direct association in His incarnation as Sri Gandhiva, the true vaisnava, with tears in his eyes, bows down to the Lord of Dance, Sri Nataraja. When the Vaisnava is stuck, he remembers the glorious son of Lord Siva, Sri Ganesha, and asks for removal of impediments for spiritual life. In doing so, we remember Lord Ganeshas birth, His devotional service as the Scribe for Sri Valmiki and the wonderfully composed Ramayana. We meditate on the wonderful rasa between Lord Siva and Lord Krsna in the Bakasura affair, that battle that made Kuruksetra pale by comparison.

 

Without Lord Siva, there is no Vaisnavism. He is the caretaker of the pastimes of Krsna. Bhima, Yamaraja, Yudhisthira, Lord Rama, all have intimate loving relationship with Lord Siva.

 

Maybe its the name Prabhupada gave me, mahaksa, that makes me so favorable, but I never tolerate Siva bashing. The thing is, he is who he is regardless of our squabbles about him, and my prayer is that he accepts me as his own.

 

Hare Krsna, om sivaya namah.

 

mahaksadasa

 

read on about the perfection of Lord Siva worship.

[mahak 0]

Guha, the Hunter King, mahaksadasa, 1999

 

Our story begins at a dark beginning of the great adventure. Lord Rama has been expelled from his rightful kingdom of Ayodhya, due to a political manipulation of the wife of King Dasaratha, who favored the rule of her own son, King Bharata, over the rightful rule of the brother he loved, Lord Ramachandra. To avoid offense to his mother and to obey her wishes, Lord Rama agreed to live in exile, taking his consort, Srimati Sitadevi, and Lord Laksmana with Him.

 

The entire Kingdom of Ayodhya followed Lord Rama into exile, including King Bharata, who did not want to continue life without the presence of Lord Rama, but Rama tricked them into returning home, and King Bharata agreed only on the condition that he not sit on the throne, rather have the sandals of Rama rule the kingdom. As Rama gave up his royal dress, and wrapped himself in bark and simple cloth of the feral humans of the forest, the males of Ayodhya did the same. The women, however, continued to dress in fine cloth, as Sitadevi continued to do so as well.

 

As the three forged deeper into the forest, the glorious metropolis of Ayodhya became a distant memory. The branches of the rain forest hid the sun so completely that it seemed that Suryadeva Himself had given up his life in separation. As Rama and Laksmana hacked away at the dense growth, they heard strange cries that were not from any animal. Out of nowhere, a tiny, well formed man appeared before them like a comet falling from the sky.

 

His skin was like molten gold, his green hair hung loose in mats, weaved with beautiful flowers, wooden beads amd hardened forest nuts. He wore garlands of tiger and jackal teeth, precious gems and other articles. His upper body had many tattoos of various design, and for clothing, he only wore a loincloth. He was heavily armed with many weapons, arrows, spears, long bows, and other very sharp throwing darts.

 

Shiny white teeth greeted them, as the little man roared, "The sons of my friend King Dasaratha have finally come to visit me. I have not seen you since you were infants. Have you finally educated yourselves sufficiently to know that the big city is nothing but ignorance and pain for all beings? How may I be of service to you?"

 

Lord Rama smiled and greeted him warmly. "My friend Guha the Hunter, we have not seen you since the leaders of our society kicked you out for good. I remember that you used to visit us, bringing us forest trinkets and funny little musical instruments you could make on the spot. We remember that you loved our Father, but had very little use of anyone else, always getting into trouble for your uncivilized ways."

 

Guha replied, "I was a soldier for King Dasaratha for tens of thousands of years, and we fought many battles together. Soldiers always understand each other, but those who we die for never can understand. Who is that hiding behind you, Laksmana? She is unable to hide from a hunter king, because she is like the rising of ten- thousand suns at once. She can be none other than the goddess of fortune."

 

Srimati Sitadevi showed Herself, bowing gently to Her host. Guha was so happy to be graced by the three exiles that he made them a home in his forest. Taking Sitadevi by the hand, he led them to a wonderful forest hut made from grasses which kept the living space both cool and warm, depending on the comfort desire of the Three Exiles. He at once by mystic powers made his kingdom appear out of nowhere, cooks, storytellers, artisans and musicians all created an immediate festive scene. He personally prepared them a feast of forest foods, nuts, juices, legumes, all very wonderfully spiced. The exiles lived in guhas kingdom for over a year, and their happiness was greatly enhanced by Guhas brash sense of humor, his disdain for society, his political outspokenness, and of course, his music abilities.

 

One evening, the subject of religion came up in their campfire discussion, and Guha told him of how Lord Siva personally appeared to him, asking him to take whatever gift he wanted from the Ascetic God above all other gods. His story went like this:

 

"They say that the brahmana class is perfect and favored by God, but I find them to be great hypocrites. They expect all this service while they go around thinking that all others are sub-human. Well, I certainly dont care for them or their gods. A bunch of them were worshipping this statue in a clearing in My jungle, and when I asked them to at least ask permission of the owner, they threatened to curse me to become a jackal. I walked away from them, not caring for their attitude, but I was not going to let them get away with that."

 

"So they had this statue, and they carefully placed beautiful flowers each day and sang "om Sivaya Namah" over and over again, while I watched them from a tree. Each night when they left, I not only messed up their altar, I kicked their Lord Siva in the head. For three hundred years I did this, generation after generation of these brahmanas did their religious duty, and I did my duty as well, and kicked the statue as I left ."

 

One year, the monsoon hit very hard, and their temple with their statue became submerged, and the river changed its course. These brahmanas finally left my kingdom, and my people were greatly relieved. But my duty was still going on. Each evening, I grabbed a long, hollow reed, wore a garland of heavy stones, and walked under the raging river to kick the God in the head. I did this without fail for the next three huindred years, and, lo and behold, one night, the statue was gone. I felt a bit disturbed, and I felt something missing from my life, so I sat aside the river, somewhat dejected. I was soon startled by another hunter, a very tall man with ashes all over him, the moon and stars were coming from the crown of his matted hair. He wore a garland of human skulls, and his throat was purple. He rode up to me on a Bull, dismounted, and bowed to me, asking me to take from him whatever I wanted."

 

"I told him I already have everything, but someone removed the statue that I loved to kick in the head. With a grave voice, he responded, "I am known as Nataraja, the dancer. Those who think they know how to worship me have abandoned me, all but one. Never have I experianced such steadfast devotion as you have shown me. Your determination is beyond anything in the three worlds, and I have decided that I should be your servant. Since you ask for nothing but continued devotion, I shall satisfy this desire. You will surpass all imaginary brahmanical qualifications and attain much more than religion can even promise.""

 

Guha finished the story by singing about the great wars fought in the company of great generals such as King Dasaratha, Jatayu, Mucukunda and other earthly beings always called on by the gods when the demons seem to overtake them.

 

One day, Laksmana, and Lord Rama and Srimati Sitadevi were compelled to leave. They had felt that their promise of exile was jeopardized by living so lavishly in Guha's kingdom. Guha was very sad to see them go, but was relieved when they promised to return. He presented many beautiful silken threads and beads, bracelets, jewel garlands and trinkets to Srimati Sitadevi, who was the saddest of all to be leaving such a devoted friend.

These gifts to Srimati Sitadevi are the greatest gifts to Lord Rama, for later, while she was being whisked away by the heinous ravanasura, she was covertly dropping these beads and trinkets to leave a trail for Rama and Laksmana to follow, to the kingdom of Lanka of the Waves. Two of these bracelets were retrieved by Sri Hanumana and Angira, and allowed them to see where she was imprisoned in the grove of the demon king's palace.

[Guest guest]

 

Guest3 never posts any scripture to support his foolish sentimental claims about Siva being supreme over Vishnu, Krishna and Rama.

 

He talks about how Krishna and Rama worshiped Siva, but he denies that shastra also shows that Siva worshiped Krishna and Vishnu.

 

So, he doesn't want to have a proper discussion or debate.

He jsut wants to come in making all sort of unsupported, unsubstantiated and unverified claims about the ontological position of Siva in the Hindu pantheon.

 

 

So, he is here to vent anger and launch foul accusations based on nothing more than his own ignorance of what the Hindu scriptures actually say about the different devas of the Hindu pantheon.

 

He has no authority behind his claims.

 

He thinks that because he believes something that it must be true, even if it cannot be supported with any proper Hindu scripture.

 

Just like the concept of Radha, don't you think?

 

Vaishnavas who have been around a lot longer than HKs do not accept Radha as divine or a real part of Krishna's life due to total absence of her name in scripture. Yet you have no trouble accepting her as nothing less than the soul of Krishna. But you have a problem when a non-HK does something similar. Scriptural evidence suddenly becomes critical.

 

In your world, Shaivas have to accept and bend to Vaishnava scripture or else they are trouble-makers like guest3. It is the same old "I am right; everyone else is wrong" act. Try and get it in your head that your scriptures are authority only to your group and not to the entire world.

 

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness - Mark Twain

 

Revised to suit present conditions,

 

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness - except in the case of HKs as these qualities appear to be firmly implanted in their psyche.

[Guest guest]

 

Guest3 never posts any scripture to support his foolish sentimental claims about Siva being supreme over Vishnu, Krishna and Rama.

He talks about how Krishna and Rama worshiped Siva, but he denies that shastra also shows that Siva worshiped Krishna and Vishnu.

So, he doesn't want to have a proper discussion or debate.

He jsut wants to come in making all sort of unsupported, unsubstantiated and unverified claims about the ontological position of Siva in the Hindu pantheon.

So, he is here to vent anger and launch foul accusations based on nothing more than his own ignorance of what the Hindu scriptures actually say about the different devas of the Hindu pantheon.

He has no authority behind his claims.

He thinks that because he believes something that it must be true, even if it cannot be supported with any proper Hindu scripture.

 

Thanks. There are ample scriptures that I have quoted and there are ample scriptures that have been quoted on this forum on the issue. What's the use of copy pasting them again and again?

But you don't accept them o wise one. If Mahabharata, Ramayana, Shiva Mahapurana, Shiva Gita and Shiva Samhita are not scriptures for you, if words of Rama and Krsna are not authority for you, then who can educate you?

As far as "Hindu" scriptures are concerned, then how are you associated with them at all??? You are not Hindus! Bhaktivedanta said, "we are not Hindus" and put down Hinduism, Hindu scriptures, Hindu saints, Hindu Gods!! So what Hindu scriptures and ignorance of the later do you talk about? This is an old discussion. And ample scriptures have been quoted on the topic. Search on this forum. You will find them. Keep up the hot air though. I like it!

[Guest guest]

 

Any topic concerning Lord Siva is a spiritual discussion, and those who hold him dear are not only allowed here, they are appreciated.

The symptom of kanistha adhikari is that they fight over the supremacy of their god. However, this is not a necessary fight, because if we really want to discover the true glories of Lord Rama, Lord Krsna, Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, and even Lord Jesus Christ, we analyze not their effect on their following, rather their transcendent relationships with each other. What do we find? No war, not one-upsmanship, no discord at all. Arjuna is a hero to the Vaisnava, so when he meets Lord Siva and wins his blessings and his direct association in His incarnation as Sri Gandhiva, the true vaisnava, with tears in his eyes, bows down to the Lord of Dance, Sri Nataraja. When the Vaisnava is stuck, he remembers the glorious son of Lord Siva, Sri Ganesha, and asks for removal of impediments for spiritual life. In doing so, we remember Lord Ganeshas birth, His devotional service as the Scribe for Sri Valmiki and the wonderfully composed Ramayana. We meditate on the wonderful rasa between Lord Siva and Lord Krsna in the Bakasura affair, that battle that made Kuruksetra pale by comparison.

 

Without Lord Siva, there is no Vaisnavism. He is the caretaker of the pastimes of Krsna. Bhima, Yamaraja, Yudhisthira, Lord Rama, all have intimate loving relationship with Lord Siva.

 

Maybe its the name Prabhupada gave me, mahaksa, that makes me so favorable, but I never tolerate Siva bashing. The thing is, he is who he is regardless of our squabbles about him, and my prayer is that he accepts me as his own.

Hare Krsna, om sivaya namah.

mahaksadasa

read on about the perfection of Lord Siva worship.

 

Hare Krsna Mahaksadasa!! PAMHO!

Please excuse the more aggressive ones like 'guruvani' and others. You bring glory to your Guru and are actually speaking Guruvani.

My only concern is this God positioning agenda and putting down agenda. As we know, the HKs never opened really Krsna worship. It existed in India since Krsna manifested his pastimes here. The problem is of that of ego. The ego wants us to get recognition as superior bhaktas, superior sampradaya, superior way etc. And we are out to prove it to others who seem to threaten our position from this superiority throne. What Guruvani, Vikram and a bunch of other trying to be bhaktas have exhibited, can well be passed as a proof of this. I don't like many things that Prabhupada said when I listen from some of his fourth generation followers. But when I hear him say them (in recordings) I like what he meant! hmmm..... Anyways.. I mean well. I won't see Lord Krsna put down either. And won't see Lord Shiva's exalted position belittled either. Regards.

[Guest guest]

Guest3, i would like to ask you something-

 

can you comment please on this:

 

 

Quote:

The Vedic pantheon is considered to consist of thirty-three different gods, which are placed, in groups of eleven, into one of the three different categories: atmospheric, terrestrial, or celestial, each of which has its own area of responsibility. But just because a god is in one category does not mean that it is completely different from a god from another category; for sometimes a god from one category will have some of the same qualities of a god from another category.

 

To better explain this, a brief description of three different gods, each from a different category, follows. The gods being discussed, and their categories, are: 1) Indra, atmospheric; 2) Agni, terrestrial; and 3) Varuna, celestial.

 

Quote:

Indra is considered as one of the favorite Vedic god. This is shown through the number of Vedic hymns that deal with him. With 250 Vedic hymns, he has more hymns that celebrate him than any other Vedic god. He is the most powerful, as well as the highest god in the atmospheric hierarchy; he is also one of the most powerful of the Vedic gods, with Varuna as his only real rival.

source- www

 

 

Actually i found in Guinness Encyclopedia that Vedic Gods are (main):

- Indra

- Varuna

- Agni

- Surja

 

 

Question:

Explanation, please, why were original Rig-vedic Gods "changed to others" like Brahma, Vishnu (Krishna), Shiva, Ganesh, Hanuman ?

[Guest guest]

 

Except that Shaivas/Pashupatas/Shaktas/... have never established their beliefs using Vedas; most Shaivas have taken to advaita (which at least tries to establish its beliefs) severely compromising their own philosophy since advaita says that Lord Shiva (among others) is a figmant of imagination.

 

Yet another display of rank ignorance.

 

Apart from singing their own praises, HKs engage in a substantial amount of negative propoganga – most of which is directed against a group they refer to as ‘Mayavadins’. None out of ten HKs do not know what the term means and never bothered to find out. One HK who criticized Mayavadins was led to believe by his people that it was the Sanskrit word for atheist! Fortunately for him, he never had to take a Sanskrit test. Such gross ignorance about the outer world is not uncommon among this group.

 

It is the HKs who have devised a system around a set of beliefs where not a single of them can be traced back to any veda. Their treasured beliefs – Krishna, Radha, Chaitanya as an avatar, Goloka – not a <<<<single>>>> of these are from any of the Vedas. When challenged, ridiculous defenses are attempted. Examples:

 

1. Those portions are now lost…

2. They were meant to be secret….

 

Now you ignore the fact that your own group has nothing to with the Vedas and are criticizing other groups for doing the same!

 

Your ignorance of Advaita is obvious too when you say they see Shiva as a figment of imagination. For your own good, I suggest you be more careful about what you post, least you look silly (you already have, in this case).

 

Om

[Guest guest]

 

Just like the concept of Radha, don't you think?

 

Vaishnavas who have been around a lot longer than HKs do not accept Radha as divine or a real part of Krishna's life due to total absence of her name in scripture. Yet you have no trouble accepting her as nothing less than the soul of Krishna. But you have a problem when a non-HK does something similar. Scriptural evidence suddenly becomes critical.

 

In your world, Shaivas have to accept and bend to Vaishnava scripture or else they are trouble-makers like guest3. It is the same old "I am right; everyone else is wrong" act. Try and get it in your head that your scriptures are authority only to your group and not to the entire world.

 

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness - Mark Twain

 

Revised to suit present conditions,

 

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness - except in the case of HKs as these qualities appear to be firmly implanted in their psyche.

 

Similarly Padma Purana is quoted everywhere, but Shiva Gita which is an integral part of Padma Purana is rejected as fake. But a 300 year old book (CC) is accepted as authority. I have no problem with CC. nice bhakti book. But why not Shiv Gita as well? Its Padma Purana, written not 300 years back. Its Vedic! I was reading a previous post in this forum where another gentleman asked why didn't Vyasdeva mention Radha's name in Bhagwatam but only krisna's? The funny explanation given was that Radha's name is so divine that each time Vyasadeva decide to write it down, and he thought about her and half pronounced her name, he fell into ecstatic trance and hence was never able to write it down and the name was highly secret. nice explanation huh? Anyone buying this?

So we find numerous such double standards with made up explanations. No wonder when someone pin-points it to HKs boldly, they get mad and use the usual scare crow of "Vaishnava Aparadha", blasphemy etc.

 

Again, Please try to follow (not you Guest_rudra). Its not an attack on Vaishnavas at all!! Vaishnavism is wonderful and is highly elevated bhakti culture worshipping Shri Narayana. So why have you (HKs) chosen to degrade yourself by putting down other sampradayas and being so judgemental and putting down Shivas, Shaktas and everyone who don't accept the divine doctrine the way you want them to? This is the whole issue!!

[Guest guest]

 

he funny explanation given was that Radha's name is so divine that each time Vyasadeva decide to write it down, and he thought about her and half pronounced her name, he fell into ecstatic trance and hence was never able to write it down and the name was highly secret. nice explanation huh? Anyone buying this?

 

Sumedh and Guruvani will have no absolutely no trouble buying anything as long as it comes out of the HK camp.

 

If you want something funnier, you should ask them how they came to know about Srila Vyasadeva's little problem with writing down Radha's name as Vyasa himself did not mention his problem anywhere.

 

Om

[Guruvani 0]

For the bigot in here who says that Hare Krishna people disrespect Siva, maybe he needs to be reminded that Sivaratri is observed in all ISKCON temples as per the Vaishnava calender and in the Gaudiya siddhanta it is said "vaisnavanam yatha Shambhu" that of all the Vaishnavas Lord Siva is the topmost.

 

So, your bigoted remarks about Hare Krishna prejudice against Lord Siva is really just a figment of your own distorted and psychotic imagination, as the Gaudiya Vaishnavas respect Lord Siva as the topmost of all Vaishnavas as per the authorized scriptures.

 

You come in here making all sorts of bigoted accusations against the Hare Krishna people as if they are out on the streets making propaganda against Lord Siva.

 

the Hare Krishna's have no axe to grind with Lord Siva.

He is highly respected and worshipped as a plenary expansion of Lord Krishna.

 

So, you are shadow boxing here with an enemy you dreamed-up in your own confused mind.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavas have the greatest of respect for Lord Siva as a plenary portion of Lord Krishna and as a guna-avatar in the trinity of the three chief demigods of the universe.

 

You are making a typical straw-man argument by creating an enemy that doesn't exist out of your own mind and then assigning that demon as being the makings of someone you choose to fight with.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavas have never attacked or assualted or insulted Lord Siva.

You have manufactured that in your own imagination because for some reason or other you have a need to put down Lord Krishna and prove to yourself that Siva is supreme.

 

Nobody in this forum has attacked Siva.

 

You came here looking for a fight because typical of most Shaivas you have an anger problem and probably need some classes in anger management.

 

Stop picking a fight with the Hare Krishna's over Siva.

 

The Hare Krishna's have never done anything against Siva.

 

Hare Krishna's don't buy into every dimestore Shaivite that is out to make a buck on Lord Siva, but they have nothing against Lord Siva.

 

Lord Siva is very beloved by the Gaudiya's.

They just don't have any use for bogus Shaivites like you.

[Guest guest]

 

Guest3, i would like to ask you something-

can you comment please on this:

No Vedic Gods were "changed" The history of Ganesha can be read in shiva scriptures. Hanuman ji is the 11th avatara of Rudra. Krsna was the last Vishnu Avatara before kalki. Although if u ask HKs, they will say that everybody else is Krsna's "expansion". In short, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra are three different powers of divinity, of parbrahman or the Hindu trinity and work within these modes due to their respective undertaken tasks of Creation, sustainance and annihilation. Vayu is the God of Life. Vayu is Prana energy that sustains this universe further dividing into various energy forms. So is Varuna. As you ahve said, you can read in the Rig vedas on vayu, Indra and varuna. Indra's position is clear in the Vedic scriptures. The powers that control the functioning of the universe on various macro and micro levels are the ten mahavidyas. Combined they are called Shakti, Durga who is divided into three essential shaktis of Mahasarasvati, Mahalakshmi and Mahakali, without whos help not even Narayana shiva or Brahma does any work. umm.... the HK definitions are different though. But without Lakshmi even the HKs don't build templese or the sanyasis buy their expensive laptops or go around the world. Each God and Godesses have their own further finer divisions with accompanying Bhairavs. But for that you will have to study Tantra.

btw, are you trying to distract the ongoing discussion with this new question tripple one? lol! ;-) If you are Hare krsna, then you can dismiss all this as "Hodge-Podge Hinduism" (quote Prabhupada). Regards.

[Guest guest]

 

Stop picking a fight with the Hare Krishna's over Siva.

 

The Hare Krishna's have never done anything against Siva.

 

 

Not so fast, Guruvani. Let me jog your memory.

 

You were the one who poked your nose into a Shaiva discussion and demanded evidence from Shaivas to support their beliefs.

 

Because you hail from a camp where Vishnu is supreme, your holier-than-thou attitude prompts you to enter into arguments with people who do things differently. When this was pointed out, you now take a different stance and talk as if you are the paragon of tolerance.

 

Shaivas see Shiva as supreme and care not for your beliefs or your Vaishnav scriiptures. If you see Vishnu as superior to Shiva, you are welcome to your beliefs. Stop trying to beat your Vaishnava drum on a Shaiva thread and then pretend as though you did nothing when you are cornered.

 

Om

[Guest guest]

 

Sumedh and Guruvani will have no absolutely no trouble buying anything as long as it comes out of the HK camp.

If you want something funnier, you should ask them how they came to know about Srila Vyasadeva's little problem with writing down Radha's name as Vyasa himself did not mention his problem anywhere.

Om

 

Oh yes! But isn't that a higly secret issue? I guess "Srila" Vyasadeva came in someone's dream and told them about this falling into trance problem? Possible no?

I knew about Shri Ramakrishna Paramahansa's state. If any of his disciples would utter Kali, he could fall into a trance like state and start crying saying out Kali kali, mother Kali and calling and crying out to her like a child. But he never kept Kali's name a top secret. Maybe Srila Vyasadeva prefered to keep Sri Radha hidden... :/

[Guest guest]

 

Krsna was the last Vishnu Avatara before kalki.

i think you "forgot" Budha

 

 

btw, are you trying to distract the ongoing discussion with this new question tripple one? lol! ;-) If you are Hare krsna, then you can dismiss all this as "Hodge-Podge Hinduism" (quote Prabhupada). Regards.

 

Im just doing some "research" on my own, looking for truth ( i was raised in christian).

Its a lot of stuff from "east", and i didnt really understand your post.

Sory for interupt your converstion (the question that i asked is just the late that im interested in and i asked it a few times but didnt find the answer).

[Guest guest]

It is true to some extent that Iskcon devotees tend to see Lord Shiva as a mere demigod, which is patently false, as he is a Divine Tattva with his own eternal abode.

 

Even the passage from Padma Purana (Brahma Khanda 25.15) relating to the offences in chanting of the holy names has been changed to reflect that:

 

"To consider the names of Lord Siva or Lord Brahma to be on an equal level with the holy name of Lord Vishnu."

 

the direct translation reads more like that:

 

“One who sees the difference between the names and qualities of Lord Shiva and names and qualities of Lord Vishnu is an antagonist of hari-nama"

 

here is the Sanskrit original:

 

sivasya sri-visnor ya iha guna-namadi-sakalam

dhiya bhinnam pasyet sa khalu hari-namahita-karah

[Guest guest]

 

It is true to some extent that Iskcon devotees tend to see Lord Shiva as a mere demigod, which is patently false, as he is a Divine Tattva with his own eternal abode.

 

Even the passage from Padma Purana (Brahma Khanda 25.15) relating to the offences in chanting of the holy names has been changed to reflect that:

 

"To consider the names of Lord Siva or Lord Brahma to be on an equal level with the holy name of Lord Vishnu."

 

the direct translation reads more like that:

 

“One who sees the difference between the names and qualities of Lord Shiva and names and qualities of Lord Vishnu is an antagonist of hari-nama"

 

here is the Sanskrit original:

 

sivasya sri-visnor ya iha guna-namadi-sakalam

dhiya bhinnam pasyet sa khalu hari-namahita-karah

 

Low born!! You are Highborn!!

But I was told by the HKs that it is a blasphemy to put Shiva next to Krsna on the altar!!! LMAO!!

Indeed Lord Shiva himself says the same!

[Guruvani 0]

i

Not so fast, Guruvani. Let me jog your memory.

 

You were the one who poked your nose into a Shaiva discussion and demanded evidence from Shaivas to support their beliefs.

 

Because you hail from a camp where Vishnu is supreme, your holier-than-thou attitude prompts you to enter into arguments with people who do things differently. When this was pointed out, you now take a different stance and talk as if you are the paragon of tolerance.

 

Shaivas see Shiva as supreme and care not for your beliefs or your Vaishnav scriiptures. If you see Vishnu as superior to Shiva, you are welcome to your beliefs. Stop trying to beat your Vaishnava drum on a Shaiva thread and then pretend as though you did nothing when you are cornered.

 

Om

 

Let me jog your memory Bapuji!

 

The topic asks the question "Is Lord Shiva the son of Brahma?" and was inviting opinions and discussion.

 

It was not a topic for the exclusive glorification of Siva, but was asking for discussion about his place in the Vedic pantheon.

 

So, don't don't go accusing me a crashing a Siva thread, because the thread was calling for answers as to the ontological position of Siva in relationship to Lord Brahma.

 

Apparently, someone in here is getting his panties all in a bunch because some of the comments didn't satisfy his Shaivite theory about the divinity of Lord Siva above Vishnu and Krishna.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Shaivas see Shiva as supreme and care not for your beliefs or your Vaishnav scriiptures.

 

Om

they might see him as supreme, but that view cannot be supported with the Vedic texts.

It's just a false belief that pseudo-Shaivites have manufactured against the proper conclusion the of the Vedas and the supplementary Vedic literatures.

 

Siva as being supreme is a man-made doctrine that has no proper support in the Vedas.

He is supreme on his planet.

But, he is not supreme over Lord Krishna.

 

According to his birth in this universe, yes he was born from out between the eyes of Lord Brahma, so he is the son of Lord Brahma.

 

That is the Bhagavat siddhanta.

 

Otherwise, what is your story on the birth of Lord Siva within this brahmanda?

What does the Shaiva camp have to say about that and where is their proof in any shastric reference.

[Guest guest]

 

they might see him as supreme, but that view cannot be supported with the Vedic texts.

 

Like Krishna and Radha, you mean?

 

 

It's just a false belief that pseudo-Shaivites have manufactured against the proper conclusion the of the Vedas and the supplementary Vedic literatures.

 

Like Radha, Goloka and Chaitanya’s avatarhood, you mean?

 

 

Otherwise, what is your story on the birth of Lord Siva within this brahmanda?

What does the Shaiva camp have to say about that and where is their proof in any shastric reference.

 

To seek answers you need to first clarify your position.

 

1. What is defined as scripture and why?

2. How are HK divinities like Radha valid although they are not found in scripture?

3. If only HKs are allowed to deviate from standards, please explain why.

 

Explain yourself covering these 3 three fundamentals, and you will be in a position to demand evidence from Shaivas. Until then, you are just engaged in a boring holier-than-thou rant.

 

Om

[Guest guest]

 

i

 

Let me jog your memory Bapuji!

The topic asks the question Is Lord Shiva the son of Brahma? and was inviting opinions and discussion.

It was not a topic for the exclusive glorification of Siva, but was asking for discussion about his place in the Vedic pantheon.

So, don't don't go accusing me a crashing a Siva thread, because the thread was calling for answers as to the ontological position of Siva in relationship to Lord Brahma.

Apparently, someone in here is getting his panties all in a bunch because some of the comments didn't satisfy his Shaivite theory about the divinity of Lord Siva above Vishnu and Krishna.

 

Take your hand off the jog dial and listen. We ain't playin' no video game here. The question raised in the thread deals with Lord Shiva's birth. In order to understand this, one has to enquire into the real nature of Lord Shiva first. And to understand Shiva, one has to take refuge with the Shaivas - devotees and sadhaks who spend their lifetime understanding, revering and worshipping Lord of Lords - devadhidev -MAHADEV!

I have nothing against gaudiya parampara. But they are not an authority on Shiva. And once you need to enquire about Shiva, you can't make up your answers on the issue and thrust them down other's palate! This is why someone has to clear up the fog here!

[Guruvani 0]

I kept hearing this Shaivite blabbing, but I never see anything authoritative to establish their beliefs on any shastric authority.

 

At least the Vaishnavas can support their siddhanta with shastra.

 

These bogus Shaivites just expect that they can come in blabbing all sort of nonsense about Siva and we are supposed to accept it because they say so.

 

Sorry Charlie, but Vaishnavas rely on Vedic shastra for their siddhanta and they don't accept folklore and Hindu mythology.

 

Shaivism is about as corrupted and confused as you can get.

 

Every Tom, Dick and Harry that claims to be a Shaiva guru spouts off all sorts of wild claims about Siva without any sort of proper Vedic shastra to support his views and then he sucks in a bunch of naive Hindus who are too stupid or too lazy to study the scriptures and be able to make any sort of informed decision about whether these "Shaiva" gurus are talking out their anus or if they have any clue what they are saying.

 

Shaivites set around smoking opium and hashish and claiming to be spiritually advanced when they are too stoned on dope to even find their own ass.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Take your hand off the jog dial and listen. We ain't playin' no video game here.

 

Speak for yourself.

I am 54 years old and have been studying Indian religion and philosophy for the last 33 years.

I don't play videa games chump.

That is probably your problem not mine.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Like Krishna and Radha, you mean?

 

 

 

Like Radha, Goloka and Chaitanya’s avatarhood, you mean?

 

 

 

To seek answers you need to first clarify your position.

 

1. What is defined as scripture and why?

2. How are HK divinities like Radha valid although they are not found in scripture?

3. If only HKs are allowed to deviate from standards, please explain why.

 

Explain yourself covering these 3 three fundamentals, and you will be in a position to demand evidence from Shaivas. Until then, you are just engaged in a boring holier-than-thou rant.

 

Om

 

Thats not the argument in this thread.

Don't try to derail the topic.

 

Let's talk about whether the Vedic texts have Siva as supreme above Vishnu or whether the Vedic texts have Vishnu as supreme above Siva.

 

You are obviously too ignorant about the Vedic scriptures to be ready for the post-graduate siddhanta regarding Radha-Krishna, so lets just stick to some elementary school concepts that maybe your pea-brain can grasp.

 

Your Siva siddhanta cannot stand up to a scholarly debate.

It's based on sentiment and folklore and is not based on proper Vedic authority.

[Guest guest]

 

Speak for yourself.

I am 54 years old and have been studying Indian religion and philosophy for the last 33 years.

I don't play videa games chump.

That is probably your problem not mine.

 

Gyan Vriddh is only 'Vriddha'! Think about this old lump. If years added wisdom, then I would learn from the redwood tree. Your aggression and "Shaiva Gurus speaking from their An*s " snap has amply made clear your sorry and frustrated state of consciousness. This is not what we call a "Vaishnava"! Studying religion and philosophy has nothing to do with sadhna! Nor has it got anything to do with 'Gyana' gained out of following shastric sadhnas. Playing video games is not bad once in a while. But not with Guru Maryada and Lord Shiva or Vishnu's names!