An example of how the disciplic succession goes on by hearing from the right source

[theist 1]

TRANSLATION SB 2.1.10

 

(Sukadeva to Pariksit)

 

That very Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam I shall recite before you because you are the most sincere devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. One who gives full attention and respect to hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam achieves unflinching faith in the Supreme Lord, the giver of salvation.

 

PURPORT

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is recognized Vedic wisdom, and the system of receiving Vedic knowledge is called avaroha-panthā, or the process of receiving transcendental knowledge through bona fide disciplic succession. For advancement of material knowledge there is a need for personal ability and researching aptitude, but in the case of spiritual knowledge, all progress depends more or less on the mercy of the spiritual master. The spiritual master must be satisfied with the disciple; only then is knowledge automatically manifest before the student of spiritual science. The process should not, however, be misunderstood to be something like magical feats whereby the spiritual master acts like a magician and injects spiritual knowledge into his disciple, as if surcharging him with an electrical current. The bona fide spiritual master reasonably explains everything to the disciple on the authorities of Vedic wisdom. The disciple can receive such teachings not exactly intellectually, but by submissive inquiries and a service attitude. The idea is that both the spiritual master and the disciple must be bona fide. In this case, the spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is ready to recite exactly what he has learned from his great father Śrīla Vyāsadeva, and the disciple, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, is a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. A devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa is he who believes sincerely that by becoming a devotee of the Lord one becomes fully equipped with everything spiritual. This teaching is imparted by the Lord Himself in the pages of the Bhagavad-gītā, in which it is clearly described that the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa) is everything, and that to surrender unto Him solely and wholly makes one the most perfectly pious man. This unflinching faith in Lord Kṛṣṇa prepares one to become a student of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and one who hears Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from a devotee like Śukadeva Gosvāmī is sure to attain salvation at the end, as Mahārāja Parīkṣit did. The professional reciter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the pseudodevotees whose faith is based on one week's hearing are different from Śukadeva Gosvāmī and Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Śrīla Vyāsadeva explained Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam unto Śukadeva Gosvāmī from the very beginning of the janmādy asya [sB 1.1.1] verse, and so Śukadeva Gosvāmī also explained it to the Ding. Lord Kṛṣṇa is described as the Mahāpuruṣa in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (Canto Eleven) in His devotional feature as Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself in His devotional attitude, descended on earth to bestow special favors upon the fallen souls of this age of Kali. There are two verses particularly suitable to offer as prayers to this Mahāpuruṣa feature of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

 

dhyeyaḿ sadā paribhava-ghnam abhīṣṭa-dohaḿ

 

tīrthāspadaḿ śiva-virishci-nutaḿ śaraṇyam

 

bhṛtyārti-haḿ praṇata-pāla bhavābdhi-potaḿ

 

vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam

 

tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīḿ

 

dharmiṣṭha ārya-vacasā yad agād araṇyam

 

māyā-mṛgaḿ dayitayepsitam anvadhāvad

 

vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam

 

(Bhāg. 11.5.33-34)

 

In other words, puruṣa means the enjoyer, and mahāpuruṣa means the supreme enjoyer, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa. One who deserves to approach the Supreme Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is called the mahā-pauruṣika. Anyone who hears Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam attentively from its bona fide reciter is sure to become a sincere devotee of the Lord, who is able to award liberation. There was none so attentive as Mahārāja Parīkṣit in the matter of hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and there was none so qualified as Śukadeva Gosvāmī to recite the text of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore, anyone who follows in the footsteps of either the ideal reciter or the ideal hearer, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and Mahārāja Parīkṣit respectively, will undoubtedly attain salvation like them. Mahārāja Parīkṣit attained salvation by hearing only, and Śukadeva Gosvāmī attained salvation only by reciting. Recitation and hearing are two processes out of nine devotional activities, and by strenuously following the principles, either in all or by parts, one can attain the absolute plane. So the complete text of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, beginning with the janmādy asya [sB 1.1.1] verse up to the last one in the Twelfth Canto, was spoken by Śukadeva Gosvāmī for the attainment of salvation by Mahārāja Parīkṣit. In the Padma Purāṇa, it is mentioned that Gautama Muni advised Mahārāja Ambarīṣa to hear regularly Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as it was recited by Śukadeva Gosvāmī, and herein it is confirmed that Mahārāja Ambarīṣa heard Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from the very beginning to the end, as it was spoken by Śukadeva Gosvāmī. One who is actually interested in the Bhāgavatam, therefore, must not play with it by reading or hearing a portion from here and a portion from there; one must follow in the footsteps of great kings like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa or Mahārāja Parīkṣit and hear it from a bona fide representative of Śukadeva Gosvāmī.

[theist 1]

 

The spiritual master must be satisfied with the disciple; only then is knowledge automatically manifest before the student of spiritual science. The process should not, however, be misunderstood to be something like magical feats whereby the spiritual master acts like a magician and injects spiritual knowledge into his disciple, as if surcharging him with an electrical current. The bona fide spiritual master reasonably explains everything to the disciple on the authorities of Vedic wisdom. The disciple can receive such teachings not exactly intellectually, but by submissive inquiries and a service attitude. The idea is that both the spiritual master and the disciple must be bona fide.

 

What I hear is that even in the presence of the vapu form of the spiritual master it is the instructions, the teaching transmitted to the disciple that carries the real weight of the parampara.

 

It is not that the disciple gets zapped into enlightenment with some electrical force, he is enlightened by the knowledge received.

[Guest guest]

I hear more than that. There was some fellow in the states who was 'initiating' disciples by the process of 'magic transmission' by touch at that time and Srila Prabhupada was most certainly aware of that chalatan.

 

What about the first line of the quote you have presented? The spiritual master must be satisfied with the disciple. That certainly indicates a personal exchange - not magic, but definitely personal association. The other part about submission and service is also critical. It's not just the instruction - it must be given to an appropriate 'vessel'. Just as a good seed must have good soil, light and water to sprout and grow properly, the sadhaka must be sincere and approach the subject matter with submission and service.

[theist 1]

 

I hear more than that. There was some fellow in the states who was 'initiating' disciples by the process of 'magic transmission' by touch at that time and Srila Prabhupada was most certainly aware of that chalatan.

 

What about the first line of the quote you have presented? The spiritual master must be satisfied with the disciple. That certainly indicates a personal exchange - not magic, but definitely personal association. The other part about submission and service is also critical. It's not just the instruction - it must be given to an appropriate 'vessel'. Just as a good seed must have good soil, light and water to sprout and grow properly, the sadhaka must be sincere and approach the subject matter with submission and service.

 

There always seems to be someone doing that electrical buzz thing. Guru Maharaja ji was one from India that was hot at the time in America.

 

Yes there a lot of points we can find in that purport. This is the reason 50 disciples may be hearing the same words of their guru who is right in front of them and only a few may be able to take catch the actual instruction.

 

It is the same thing though. The formal rites still don't come into play as in being essential to the planting of the seed or in the proper soil. It's the personal connection where all the shakti is held.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

What about the first line of the quote you have presented? The spiritual master must be satisfied with the disciple.

That means that one must follow the instructions of the spiritual master.

It means that all the blessings of the spiritual master come by following his instructions that he has delineated in his books of instruction.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that everything he knew he wrote in his books and outside of that he had no other knowledge to give.

 

He showed by his practical example that he accepted thousands of disciples he never met or personally observed. He accepted them because they were following hin instructions.

 

Your text book idea of what things mean should be balanced with how Srila Prabhupada actually conducted his activities.

 

We keep hearing this same old tired refrain over and over and over again, but the fact is that SRILA PRABHUPADA accepted as disciples all devotess who were recommended by the ISKCON officials.

 

Maybe other acharyas haven't made that contract with their followers, but Srila Prabhupada did because he is the most merciful and magnanimous soul.

[theist 1]

The idea is that both the spiritual master and the disciple must be bona fide. In this case, the spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is ready to recite exactly what he has learned from his great father Śrīla Vyāsadeva, and the disciple, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, is a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. A devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa is he who believes sincerely that by becoming a devotee of the Lord one becomes fully equipped with everything spiritual.(...)

[Guruvani 0]

 

That means that one must follow the instructions of the spiritual master.

It means that all the blessings of the spiritual master come by following his instructions that he has delineated in his books of instruction.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that everything he knew he wrote in his books and outside of that he had no other knowledge to give.

 

He showed by his practical example that he accepted thousands of disciples he never met or personally observed. He accepted them because they were following his instructions.

 

Your text book idea of what things mean should be balanced with how Srila Prabhupada actually conducted his activities.

 

We keep hearing this same old tired refrain over and over and over again, but the fact is that SRILA PRABHUPADA accepted as disciples all devotess who were recommended by the ISKCON officials.

 

Maybe other acharyas haven't made that contract with their followers, but Srila Prabhupada did because he is the most merciful and magnanimous soul.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said that everything he knew he wrote in his books and outside of that he had no other knowledge to give.

 

 

If this is true, why do so many people give such significance to his July 9th 1977 letter appointing ritviks?

 

The truth is that most "camps" give emphasis to their choice of Srila Prabhupada's statements outside his books. If they really believed that "everything is in the books" they wouldn't do that.

[Guruvani 0]

 

If this is true, why do so many people give such significance to his July 9th 1977 letter appointing ritviks?

 

The truth is that most "camps" give emphasis to their choice of Srila Prabhupada's statements outside his books. If they really believed that "everything is in the books" they wouldn't do that.

thats a stupid comparison.

The ritvik appointments are documented on tape and in document.

 

The ritvik appointments are not "knowledge" they are instructions of Srila Prabhupada to the ISKCON GBC.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't mention all his disciples by name in his books, but he had disciples.

 

He was talking about the science of Krishna consciousness, not specific instructions to specific disciples.

[Guruvani 0]

 

If this is true, why do so many people give such significance to his July 9th 1977 letter appointing ritviks?

 

 

The appointments are on tape as well.

The document is actually less reliable that is the actual recording of the appointments.

 

Don't try to put all the weight on the July 9th directive.

Signatures can be forged, but the tape is authentic voice of Srila Prabhupada appointing ritvik deputies.

[Guest guest]

 

The appointments are on tape as well.

The document is actually less reliable that is the actual recording of the appointments.

 

Don't try to put all the weight on the July 9th directive.

Signatures can be forged, but the tape is authentic voice of Srila Prabhupada appointing ritvik deputies.

 

"Voice"? Are you a vapu-vadi? I thought "everything was in the books"!

 

If the "voice" is important, shouldn't we all support Sripad Jayadvaita Swami in his desire to reconstruct the printed books from Srila Prabhupada's original dictaphone tapes?