Decide for Yourself

[Guest guest]

Harmonize that in your brain, if you can, GuestJJ.

 

Wow, you're still at it, M. It was harmonized for me a long long time ago. Sripads Tripurari Maharaja, Narasingha Maharaja, and Paramadvaiti Maharaja have all harmonized these apparent differences far better than I could hope to. Read "My Affectionate Guardians." I suppose you already have. Yet your horrifically offensive mind is unable to harmonize apparent preaching differences. Obviously, nothing I say is going to change your mind on this. Your are an offender to Srila Prabhupada, my Spiritual Master, and due to that, you have lost any credibility to comment on your perceived preaching differences amongst the various Acaryas. Better you remain silent and not create further offenses. May I remind you what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur said in his commentary to Sri Brahma Samhita?

 

 

What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons. There is, however, the element of mystery in their verbal controversies. Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views. Commenting on the sloka of Rasa-pancadhyayi, gopinam tat-patinam ca, etc., what Sripada Sanatana Gosvami has stated conclusively in his Vaishnava-toshani has been accepted with reverence by the true devotee Sripada Visvanatha Cakravarti without any protest.

[Guest guest]

If Muralidhar says Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math and that it is slander and an offence to say he did cause the breakup, then Muralidhar is being offensive.

 

Brilliant thinking.

 

The fact remains, Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

 

But anyhow, Madhvacarya could not accommodate the idea that guru may be seduced. He could not tolerate that guru may not know everything, may not be omniscient, but Mahaprabhu could.

(The Loving Search for the Lost Servant, Chapter 5, final paragraph)

[Guest guest]

400+ pages on the internet where people discuss the letter to Rupanuga.

 

The fact is, Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

 

What is harm in saying Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

 

This fact is true:

Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Narayana Maharaj clearly has a different point of view:

You have about enough qualification to ascertain that as a third grade math student critiqueing a Phd thesis showing a mathematical proof of a new theory in Physics.

[Sridas 0]

 

If you knew the real difference between Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhar Maharaja you would faint. You would not be able to remain conscious in that plane. Nor would I.

 

This is where the classic comparing apples with oranges analogy applies and this is exactly what Sridas Prabhu is doing. As followers of Srila Rupa Goswami our acaryas do not consider their own relationship in madhurya rasa with Krsna. They are in the camp of Srimati Radharani, Radha dasyam.

So Srila Narayana Maharaja is not discussing our potential separation or union with Krsna. And that is the subtlety that is transpiring here. He is discussing the separation and union of Sri Sri Radha Krsna. He is, in a very subtle way, trying to turn our attention away from ourselves to the service of the divine couple, in the camp of Srimati Radhika and within that camp, the camp of Srila Rupa Goswami. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say, "high talks, mad talks". Our real position is not so much to discuss these topics for it is a bit dangerous for us. Our only hope is the Lotus Feet of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Gaura Nitai. Sri Sri Guru Gauranga ki jaya.

 

All of us here may or may not know the difference of these personalities, we can only truly go on what those who do are saying, and that choice of the currant of advice we have to decide for ourselves which will ultimately determine our faith and serving perspective.

The ones I understand that have been and are still being empowered by Srimati Thakurani, Srila Rupa Goswamipad, Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakure and Srila Sridhara Maharaj are not fainting. There is definately a difference, but it isn't one that makes them faint, at times i personally feel ill over it, but I wouldn't say faint, but I'm an insensitive type in these subtle affairs.

Not that I'm familiar with such consciousness, obviously we are just repeating what we think we've heard the higher vaisnavas have realized they may not be our own perceptions, but by meditating on the words of the acharyas some pennies from above may just drop to us.

 

By the way it is this plane that you will faint in, from what i understand , I could be wrong. I'm just a neophyte, babe in the woods, but when the adhoksaja plane descends we wake in that plane, while passing out of this plane. Meaning we can't maintain our material consciousness when coming into contact with the transcendental. Guru Maharaj's speaking was like that..... alive with Hladini shakti. Perhaps that's why our dear Shakti Fan has so much attraction to him!

When sitting at Srila Guru Maharaj's lotus feet this would happen to various fortunate souls, whose sincerity opened them up with sufficient receiving capacity to catch what he was throwing from his extraordinary position.

 

I'm just wondering how much Prabhu Shakti truly accepts Srila Govinda Maharajs' perspective of this issue seeing as I've noticed you give respect addressing him as 'Srila' which is really only meant for those we see as our guru. I'm sure you are a mature vaisnava that is fully familiar with the ettiquette of vaisnavism. This may appear to be cutting hairs but there is a big difference between those we accept as our specific instructing guru and the other vaisnavas. Apart from the 'Universal concept' and the 'land of Gurus' we are familiar with. Maybe you can help me with my curiosity.

 

Maybe it's because there appears to be a line in the sand on the bankes of the Viraja when it comes to certain philosophical conceptions and there are a whole lot a ' devotees wondering who is where, for their ultimate welfare?

 

Shakti on the contrary I've heard NM tell people on first meeting that they are Gopis and also that he knows Srila Sridhara Maharaj better than anyone else. Which i wholeheartedly dispute.

I'm not nessacarily comparing, just listening to what my guru has told to give me discerning power to understand these differences, after all he is 'The guardian of Devotion'.

And he has given perfect advice to stear me and all others, including NM thru the minefield of deception... if we can catch it.

 

Personally I agree, to a degree, with what you are saying, no problem with our Rupa Radha-dasyam aspiration, Guru Maharaj has always taught such. But what i was trying to emphasize with limited time, as I stated that if we are thinking we are in such a position without being there it translates as arrogance not humility..

It is most confusing for the general populous of neophyte aspirants to be told of such subtle deep arrangments in the Divine arena. If one is instructing fron Ujjvala nila mani for instance, that was warned against by our param Gurudev and Srila Guru Maharaj to not enter, and then give these things to young devotees still on the bodily platform it is bound to cause some conflict.

 

I know innumerable devotees who are spun out with the information they've had implanted in their consciousness, unable to deal with it they find themselves in limboland afraid to even associate with devotees any more.

I am talking about attracting the mercy and grace of the agents of divinity to help us engage in that seva thru those agents on this tangible level, not direct to Krsna Himself. In a safe methodical process.

But first we need to align ourselves with the will of those agents we can trust, who may be serving in different capacities, some may side with Krsna some in our line are siding with Srimati Thakurani. In other lines they will side with Chandravalli and yet others may serve in the group of Krsna's boyfriends, parents or neutral positions and all have varying degrees of selfless sacrifice. It's not that all servitors are serving in Sri Radhika's entourage, but we are aspiring to, by the grace of our gurus..

I also tend to feel that in serving that higher plane we are to try to understand what the pangs of separation and the service needs of our masters or mistreses are, and we do get some hint of this thru our own experience and realizations.

 

So Srila Narayana Maharaja is not discussing our potential separation or union with Krsna. And that is the subtlety that is transpiring here. He is discussing the separation and union of Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

 

Maybe not as much these days, but when we first heard many years back we heard so many things which i don't really don't wish to repeat here, even in this particular thread you will find such allusions. I was given tapes from people trying to draw me to that conception that were actually rather embarrassing in the light of what Srila Sridhara Maharaj was saying, since then a number of Sridhara Maharaj sisyas went that way and many of those original statements changed. But there are many references to our personal union with Krsna. I just don't wish to go dredging up all this ancient history

[gHari 0]

Of course, this thread was designed as an aparadha thread from the beginning.

 

It must take great arrogance to hide such stupidity from us. When are we going to grow up? When will we ever get beyond the words? It is so sad that the world sees Vaisnavism this way, with our Sunnis and Shiias, and our Catholics and Protestants. Stupidity is found abound in the ranks of the poseurs everywhere.

 

Wear your shame and adrenalin with disgrace, as you rob the world of His Grace.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

All of us here may or may not know the difference of these personalities, we can only truly go on what those who do are saying, and that choice of the currant of advice we have to decide for ourselves which will ultimately determine our faith and serving perspective.

The ones I understand that have been and are still being empowered by Srimati Thakurani, Srila Rupa Goswamipad, Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakure and Srila Sridhara Maharaj are not fainting. There is definately a difference, but it isn't one that makes them faint, at times i personally feel ill over it, but I wouldn't say faint, but I'm an insensitive type in these subtle affairs.

Bhakti Sudhir Goswami: "Acyutananda inquired further about Srila Prabhupada's private Bengali talks with Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Prabhupada revealed, "I offered him the presidency of ISKCON. He declined — he is keeping things within. He has very high realizations about Krishna and Mahaprabhu. They are so deep, if I were to tell, you would faint!" What he meant is worth clarifying. Srila Sridhar Maharaja offers his own explanation: "By 'faint' he means, we will be unable to maintain consciousness in that plane (ya nisa sarva bhutanam tasyam jagarti samyami)."

 

I'm just wondering how much Prabhu Shakti truly accepts Srila Govinda Maharajs' perspective of this issue seeing as I've noticed you give respect addressing him as 'Srila' which is really only meant for those we see as our guru. I'm sure you are a mature vaisnava that is fully familiar with the ettiquette of vaisnavism. This may appear to be cutting hairs but there is a big difference between those we accept as our specific instructing guru and the other vaisnavas. Apart from the 'Universal concept' and the 'land of Gurus' we are familiar with. Maybe you can help me with my curiosity.

First I'm just a crude mleccha and this is the first time I've heard that "Srila" is only meant for ones own guru. I feel that I am defending Sripad Narayana Maharaja just based on the facts of what I have read on both sides of the matter. I really believe that Sripad Govinda Maharaja's statements about this topic are not meant for the public. Now we are in the public, the public internet. Yet it is fair to say that at this point the cat is out of the bag. One can have many siksa gurus. Of course one sadhu may become ones primary siksa guru but I have no such situation in my life currently. I have met both Sripad Govinda Maharaja and Sripad Narayana Maharaja in my travels to India. I am aware of the Ratha Yatra in Navadvipa controversy of 35 or 40 yrs. ago. I have heard many criticisms of Narayana Maharaja from the Govinda Maharaja camp on the internet and in person. I have always felt that there is some necessary ingrouping going on and the play of guru abhiman. Therefore I see no offense on Govinda Maharaja's part. Yes, I do believe that Govinda Maharaja is some kind of siddha purusha and I am very reluctant to say anything that could be construed as an offense by the higher authorities. I think if you try it you will see that if you glorify a sadhu who is apparently from another camp, then you will become quite happy. I am a very unhappy person. But just by thinking positive or glorifying thoughts about your guru, I am becoming happy. Even more happy that when I chant by inattentive, offensive rounds. I also become happy thinking positive thoughts about Narayana Maharaja, the late Gaura Govinda Maharaja and others. But when I see the conflicts that go on amongst other neophytes its like a cloud that comes to cover that happiness and its hard for me to tolerate it. By the way, I personally asked Narayana Maharaja about the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math under the guidance and acaryaship of Govinda Maharaja. He told me that everything there is authentic Gaudiya Vaisnavism in the line of Sri Rupa Raghunatha. That is why I have concluded that the real difference between the two camps is that they are in slightly different subgroups and moods in the spiritual world.

 

But there are many references to our personal union with Krsna. I just don't wish to go dredging up all this ancient history

Although the goal of the higher aspirants in our line is Radha dasyam in the serving group of Sri Rupa, we can not artificially jump to that conception. In the introductory stages we will be interested in our own relationship with Krsna. The guru will accomodate this mentality knowing fully well that by submissive service the aspirant will receive the sukrti to come into the higher conception of the followers of Sri Rupa Raghunatha.

[Guest guest]

 

What is the harm in saying Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

 

This fact is true:

Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

 

 

Bhagavad-gita 10.4-5:

 

Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are, for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in such a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth.