Decide for Yourself

[Guest guest]

Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah

Concocted ideas of the Foolish.

by

His Divine Grace Shrila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj

Question: We have read in a book from another temple that union is higher than separation and we are having some problems understanding the explanations given there. In the past we have always read in books by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada and Srila Guru Maharaj that vipralambha, separation, is the highest mood in Krsna consciousness. How are these statements compatible?

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja: My feeling is that even after one thousand births more, such persons as wrote that statement (in that book from another temple) will never be able to understand what is vipralambha and what is contained there. Mahaprabhu stayed twelve years in Gambhira tasting the separation mood of Srimate Radharani to Krsna extremely, and that is the super-expression of Krsna-prema. Such super-expression came out through vipralambha, otherwise it is not possible to tase Krsna-prema. We can get some idea of how deep it is, that Mahaprabhu took the Form of Radharani's bhava and kanti, and that is not the mood of union, but of separation.

Everyone, including even a child goat, in this mundane world knows what union is, therefore it is not necessary to teach anyone to enjoy: they already know, so it is not necessary to clarify that for anyone. But all the attentive energy is to be used for what? What is not known is the transcendental mood of separation. Why was such mood tasted by Mahaprabhu again and again? Mahaprabhu's feeling always returned to the tasting of that vipralambha - the mood of separation from Krsna. The subject matter of Mahaprabhu's lila was to taste what deepest degree of feelings were felt by Srimate Radharani.

It is not possible to express by language the mood of separation that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu tasted in Gambhira, but Srila Krsna Das Kaviraja tried to show something in Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila, second chapter. Throughout the whole of Chaitanya-caritamrta the mood of separation is present. And why do we say that this is the supreme mood of the play of the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Just what degree of bhava is in Srimate Radharani that Krsna appeared as Mahaprabhu in order to take Her mood and taste that? Who is the enjoyer? What is enjoyment? And, who is being enjoyed through the mood of suffering?

Everyone knows enjoyment, especially conditioned souls involved with sexual enjoyment, and thinking it gives the highest happiness within this mundane world, but he who can say that the highest super-painful mood of separation can give the supreme feelings - the only one who can say that is Sriman Mahaprabhu.

One sloka expressed by Kaviraja Goswami about Madhavendra Puri's feeling of the mood of separation from Krsna is:

ayi dina dayardra-natha he mathuranatha kadavalokyase

hrdayam tvadaloka-kataram dayita bhramyati kim karomy aham

ei sloka hahiyachen radhara thakurani

This sloka was extremely expressed by Srimate Radharani, and through Her super-mercy Sripad Madhavendra Puri also tasted it at the last moment of his life. After that, only Sriman Mahaprabhu, and no one else, is qualified to taste it fully - this is the opinion of Srila Kaviraja Goswami.

You try to consider the following. What is it that Krsna cannot taste Himself? What is it that Krsna wanted to taste, that He appeared in the Form of Mahaprabhu? Why did Krsna take the mood and colour of Radharani and what was His tasting matter (object)? What did Krsna taste in the Form of Mahaprabhu during His Pastimes here? What mood did Mahaprabhu show in Puri-Dham, especially in His Gambhira-lila, and why did He faint to see Krsna in Kurukshetra in the Form of Jagannatha. Why did Chandidasa write one poem:

lakha lakha yuga hiye rakhanu

tabu hiya judana ha gela

(Meaning: Why did Radharani say She couldn't be satisfied by embracing Krsna for millions of millions of years?) What mood is expressed here?

What mood of tasting is given by Sri Kaviraja Goswami in expressing Mahaprabhu's Antya-lila in Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta second part, second chapter?

That which Radharani tasted in separation of Krsna when he did not return but sent Uddhava to see Vridavan, Mahaprabhu tasted that Vramara-gita in an intoxicated way continuosly for twelve years like a mad man. If such souls are foolish then all the residents of Vrndavan, including the Gopis, are foolish. Why didn't they get straight into a chariot, like a taxi, and go just half an hour to Mathura instead of foolishly living in Vrndavan?

But if that author (of the book you mention) with his conception wants to taste the mood of union he will immediately become pregnant, then what will be for him?

What was it that Rupa Goswami expressed in a praising way about the mood of Krsna-prema in separation when he said - pidabhir nava-kala-kuta, etc (CC Madhya 2.52) - the power even of a young cobra's poison is defeated by Krsna-prema of separation?

Actually I am not eager to give answer to this, but I am only remembering the mood of Srila Guru Maharaj and Srila (A.C. Bhaktivedanta) Swami Maharaj. I am extremely hating to give any answer to this question of childish mood praising union. That is, everybody knows the position of union.

I know what is hell, and I have some experience about heaven, but I do not know what is the destination of one who wants to criticize the dearmost associates of Radharani as well as Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva. He has not even the smallest idea about Krsna consciousness, especially about the twelve years of Mahaprabhu's living in Gambhira, and the mood of Radharani tasted by Mahaprabhu, the non-different Form of Krsna. Can you say what kind of destination awaits such a person? If the residents of hell see such a person they must be fearful of him and need to make a new hell for him.

We have taken refuge at the lotus feet of Srila Guru Maharaj and therefore Krsna has been gracious to give us protection from the concocted ideas of the foolish.

 

 

From the Vintage Darsana Series

A Darsana of August, 1992 [Part 2]

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja [question:] In your Vraja-mandala Parikrama book you stated that in Krsna’s pastimes vipralambha, seperation, has no meaning unless there is also union again. From what I have understood so far from reading the books of Srila Prabhupada, he says that now we have dualistic thinking. We are thinking that happiness can only be experienced when there is distress, but in the spiritual world it is not like that. I was always quite satisfied to hear that vipralambha can be ecstatic without having to worry about the union again. But here you state very emphatically that vipralambha has no standing…

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] That is not his meaning. If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand? You have seen me, you have met me and heard from me many times. So if you will not see me, you may have feelings of separation. You have met your Prabhupada and so you have feelings of separation for him. If you had never met him, how would you feel separation?

 

For conditioned souls aspiring for bhakti; real separation will not be realized. Now you can think, because of the words of our Guru, that we are dasa or dasi of Lord Sri Krsna, and by the grace of Guru we can meet with Him. By chanting the holy name, eagerness to see Him may come, and that eagerness will create some mood of separation. A sadhaka-jiva can come only to this limit. Understand?

 

[question:] What I don’t understand is that you said we can’t feel separation unless we have seen Krsna. But if we were never in lila before, where is the question of feeling separation?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] There is no separation mood in the conditioned soul, but by continually hearing, this mood can develop. Rukmini devi had never seen Krsna before her marriage with him, but she heard from Sri Narada Rsi about His beauty, liberality and many other good qualities. She heard “There is none as beautiful as Krsna, and He is so loving.” Hearing this, Rukmini gave her heart to Him. She had not only heard from Narada, but many others told her, “Krsna is so beautiful, and He is about your age. Rukmini thus gave her heart to Him, even though she had never seen Him. This is called purva-raga (attachment that comes previous to meeting).

 

She was not a sadhaka, but we are. Do you understand? Not so much separation mood will come in us. Gradually, however, by doing bhajana, when we get only a glimpse of Krsna, whether it is in a dream or spurti (vision), when He will come in our sight like a flash, we will then weep and feel separation. Do you understand something of this?

 

Quotes from Golden Volcano — Divine Lava

The Ultimate Conception of the Supreme Reality—

Gauranga Mahaprabhu

— Srila Sridhar Maharaja

 

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has taught us that separation is the highest principle in divinity. Just as the most intense conception of ecstasy is association with Krishna, the most intense conception of pain is separation from Krishna. Yet the pain felt from Krishna's separation is far more intense than the ecstasy felt from His association. Sriman Mahaprabhu says, "Can't you understand the painful situation you are in? Your senses must have all been destroyed! Otherwise you would have died from the pain of separation from Krishna. It is inconceivable. We belong to Him wholesale. He is all in all to us". But we can't see Him. We are forcibly separated from Him. How can we tolerate this? And Bhaktivinoda Thakur once said, "I can't tolerate separation from Krishna any longer. I can go on for only three or four more days" and then I shall have to leave this body."

 

To love Krishna means that we shall have to die to live. In the beginning divine love seems like lava, death, but really it is nectar, life. Many persons in this ordinary world are also frustrated in love. They sometimes go mad and commit suicide because they can't tolerate the pain. But the pain, which comes with separation from Krishna, although compared with lava, is not injurious like lava. Kaviraja Goswami explains:

 

bahye visajvala haya bhitore anandamaya

krishna premara adbhuta charit

 

"The wonderful characteristic of divine love of Krishna is that although externally, it works like fiery lava, internally it is like sweet nectar that fills the heart with the greatest joy."

 

Union in Separation

 

In this way, the sannyas of Nimai Pundit took place. What is the meaning of His sannyas? Is it redundant, auxiliary, or a necessary part of spiritual advancement? Is it desirable? Although apparently undesirable, still it has its necessity. In the Krishna conception of theism, there is a deep-rooted correlation between union with the Lord and separation from Him. Without separation, union cannot be deep-rooted. The pain of separation can enter into the depth of the heart much more than cheerfulness. Such apprehension increases our satisfaction. The greater our want, the greater our satisfaction. This is especially true in love affairs. If there is no necessity of a thing, it has no value. This principle is found everywhere. A glass of water is ordinary, but according to the degree of its necessity, its value will increase. So the degree of necessity is most important. Necessity means separation. Necessity independent of fulfillment is separation, hunger.

[Guruvani 0]

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] That is not his meaning. If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand? You have seen me, you have met me and heard from me many times. So if you will not see me, you may have feelings of separation. You have met your Prabhupada and so you have feelings of separation for him. If you had never met him, how would you feel separation?

 

That is such a lame idea.

 

Many great acharyas and great devotees developed love for Krishna and feelings of seperation simply by hearing about Krishna from pure devotees and the scripture.

 

I think that one can develop feelings of love and seperation simply by hearing about the glorious qualities of Lord Krishna.

 

One does not have to meet Krishna to develop feelings of love.

One does not have to be away from Krishna to have feelings of seperation either.

[Guest guest]

 

That is such a lame idea.

 

Many great acharyas and great devotees developed love for Krishna and feelings of seperation simply by hearing about Krishna from pure devotees and the scripture.

 

I think that one can develop feelings of love and seperation simply by hearing about the glorious qualities of Lord Krishna.

 

One does not have to meet Krishna to develop feelings of love.

One does not have to be away from Krishna to have feelings of seperation either.

 

 

 

[question:] What I don’t understand is that you said we can’t feel separation unless we have seen Krsna. But if we were never in lila before, where is the question of feeling separation?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] There is no separation mood in the conditioned soul, but by continually hearing, this mood can develop. Rukmini devi had never seen Krsna before her marriage with him, but she heard from Sri Narada Rsi about His beauty, liberality and many other good qualities. She heard “There is none as beautiful as Krsna, and He is so loving.” Hearing this, Rukmini gave her heart to Him. She had not only heard from Narada, but many others told her, “Krsna is so beautiful, and He is about your age. Rukmini thus gave her heart to Him, even though she had never seen Him. This is called purva-raga (attachment that comes previous to meeting).

 

She was not a sadhaka, but we are. Do you understand? Not so much separation mood will come in us. Gradually, however, by doing bhajana, when we get only a glimpse of Krsna, whether it is in a dream or spurti (vision), when He will come in our sight like a flash, we will then weep and feel separation. Do you understand something of this?

 

[Guest guest]

Jaiva Dharama

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur

Vijaya-kumara: What are the different kinds of vipralambha?

Gosvami: There are four kinds of vipralambha: 1 purva-raga, 2 mana, 3 prema-vaicittya and 4 pravasa.

Vijaya-kumara: What is purva-raga?

Gosvami: Before the young lovers meet they may somehow see each other, hear of each other, or in some other way come to know of each other. When, by these activities they become attracted to each other and begin to fall in love, that is called 'purva-raga'.

Vijaya-kumara: What are the different ways they may see each other?

Gosvami: The lover may see Krishna directly, see a picture of Him, or see Him in a dream. These ways of seeing Him are called 'darsana'.

[Guest guest]

Qoute from: Murwillumbah, Australia: April 28, 2005 [Part 1]

(The second class in the lecture series on Raya Ramananda Samvad)

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana MaharajaThere are no big roaring waves here – only the waves of vipralambha (separation) and sambhoga (meeting) moods are here. Sambhoga and vipralambha are very sweet. When seen from the neutral point of view, sometimes the mood of separation appears sweeter than that of meeting. It dances on the head of sambhoga-rasa. However, if we examine this from the point of view of persons in that pastime, we see that they never accept vipralambha-rasa to be higher. They will think it like a poison.

 

No sakhi of Radhika desires that Radha and Krsna should be separated. We don't want Radha to lament and feel separation from Krsna. This mood of the maidservant of Radhika, or that of Her intimate sakhis, is so grave and deep that Raya Ramananda, as a devotee, and Sri Caitanya, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, will drown in it. This is such beautiful and tasteful nectar.

[Guest guest]

 

That is such a lame idea.

 

 

 

many times our own limited understanding and knowledge will cause us to find mistakes and illusions in the statements and teachings of a pure devotee.

 

many times we just have to give up our fault-finding propensity and see the broader, more transcendental aspect of the pure devotees teachings.

 

The defect is in our understanding, not in the words of the pure devotee.

[gHari 0]

Truth is, we've got to put it all together to get the truth.

 

We either handle the paradoxes with Krsna's grace or we lose.

 

Stay humble and patient, and let the mercy come your way.

[theist 1]

 

Qoute from: Murwillumbah, Australia: April 28, 2005 [Part 1]

(The second class in the lecture series on Raya Ramananda Samvad)

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana MaharajaThere are no big roaring waves here – only the waves of vipralambha (separation) and sambhoga (meeting) moods are here. Sambhoga and vipralambha are very sweet. When seen from the neutral point of view, sometimes the mood of separation appears sweeter than that of meeting. It dances on the head of sambhoga-rasa. However, if we examine this from the point of view of persons in that pastime, we see that they never accept vipralambha-rasa to be higher. They will think it like a poison.

 

No sakhi of Radhika desires that Radha and Krsna should be separated. We don't want Radha to lament and feel separation from Krsna. This mood of the maidservant of Radhika, or that of Her intimate sakhis, is so grave and deep that Raya Ramananda, as a devotee, and Sri Caitanya, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, will drown in it. This is such beautiful and tasteful nectar.

 

This is all over my head but I will play along. I have decided to take the above as the truth of the matter.

 

Isn't separation a type of union anyway? If one is Krsna conscious, loves Krsna cent per cent, how could there ever be separation as we usually define the word. Just speculating along here.

[bija 0]

 

This is all over my head....quote by Theist

Yes, it is above my head too. Maybe that is a good thing...where it's supposed to be.

 

The teachings are really interesting....all the descriptions are nice. Actually, beautiful.

 

Is it possible though that the disciples in the original post are the one's with the limited understanding. Rather than a contradiction between the two Guru's.

 

A kind devotee sent me a book of discussions of Srila Govinda Maharaja a while back. In it Maharaja says he has not read all of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's published small books. So surely he may not have read Srila Narayana Maharaja's book in question. I even question if he knew whose book the disciples were referring to in the above post. This is important to keep in mind whilst reading the original post. Clearly the disciples are the one's with the limited understanding. Well that is my gut feeling anyway.

 

The starter of this thread's motives are also to be questioned.

[Guest guest]

Guruvani why are you offensive towards Vaisnavas.

 

I don't think you'll ever reach the level of Srila Narayan Maharaj with this attitude.

 

It's all right not to agree perhaps on everything, sure.

 

But why must you ALWAYS disagree on everything that is related with Srila Narayana Maharaja and go so far as to insult his teachings and ideas with no sastrik reference whatsoever?

 

I am telling just for your own good. You don't go anywhere spiritually by insulting a vaisnava who is obviously higher than you.

 

Instead of being such a coward why don't you come to Hilo and discuss with Srila Maharaja for yourself and then come to a conclusion?

 

You're just sounding like another ISKCON-brainwashed piece of junk with no brain for yourself.

 

I mean your attitude is quite indicative of where you must be spiritually.

 

Looks like they've claimed another one... Go figure.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

But if that author (of the book you mention) with his conception wants to taste the mood of union he will immediately become pregnant, then what will be for him?

 

 

Actually I am not eager to give answer to this, but I am only remembering the mood of Srila Guru Maharaj and Srila (A.C. Bhaktivedanta) Swami Maharaj. I am extremely hating to give any answer to this question of childish mood praising union. That is, everybody knows the position of union.

I know what is hell, and I have some experience about heaven, but I do not know what is the destination of one who wants to criticize the dearmost associates of Radharani as well as Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva.

The fact of the matter is that these statements are only meant for the followers of Srila Govinda Maharaja. He is criticizing another Vaisnava preacher, only for preaching purposes. But some of his neophyte followers who are superficially senior by age and experience have been lead by their Kannistha blundering mentality to post this on their Australian internet site and other places.

 

 

From the Vintage Darsana Series

A Darsana of August, 1992 [Part 2]

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] That is not his meaning. If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand?

 

Quotes from Golden Volcano — Divine Lava

The Ultimate Conception of the Supreme Reality—

Gauranga Mahaprabhu

— Srila Sridhar Maharaja

 

In the Krishna conception of theism, there is a deep-rooted correlation between union with the Lord and separation from Him. Without separation, union cannot be deep-rooted.

These two statements by Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhar Maharaja are almost identical. From the objective viewpoint it would appear that Srila Govinda Maharaja is condemning his own guru. But that is only from the analytical point of view. You have to look at his intention, which is to "concentrate the faith of the disciples". Its not meant as an attempt to crush the faith of Srila Narayana Maharaja's disciples. But certain followers of Srila Govinda Maharaja and also other so-called followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja are using these statements to try to crush the faith of others like "tanks crushing the infantry". The real followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja are like him, in that they are "faith makers, not faith breakers".

[Guest guest]

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj:

-

 

A Revolutionary Guru

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura once revealed the importance of Kuruksetra in a unique way. The words of our guru maharaja were mostly very revolutionary. When I was a beginner with only two years or so in the Gaudiya Math, I was in charge of the Kuruksetra temple. Once, I came to the Calcutta headquarters at the hired house in Ulta Danga for the yearly preaching festival. After the festival I was to return to Kuruksetra. 6rila Prabhupada was thinking of opening a "Theistic Exhibition" in Kuruksetra, showing with dioramas how Krsna and His friends came there from Dvaraka, and the gopis came there from Vrndavana.

 

It is mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatum that during the solar eclipse, they came to bathe in Brahma-kunda, a sacred lake in Kuruksetra. Srila Prabhupada wanted to show that pastime with a diorama, and so the exhibition was arranged. He ordered handbills to be printed, and twenty thousand circulated in the area, inviting people to come for the exhibition.

 

Vrndavana—For Shallow Thinkers?

 

In this connection, he told us, "You all know that only the bogus, hollow people and men of shallow thinking like Vrndavana." I was very much perplexed to hear this. I had been told that Vrndavana is the highest place of spiritual perfection. I had heard that one who has not mastered his senses cannot enter Vrndavana. Only the liberated souls can enter Vrndavana and have the opportunity of discussing krsna-lila. Vrndavana is for the liberated souls. Those who are not liberated from the demands of their senses may live in Navadwipa, but the liberated souls may live in Vrndavana. Now Prabhupada was saying that the shallow thinkers appreciate Vrndavana, but a man of real bhajana, real divine aspiration, will aspire to live in Kuruksetra.

 

Hearing this, I felt as if I had fallen from the top of a tree. "What is this?" I thought. I am a very acute listener, so I was very keen to catch the meaning of his words. The next thought he gave us was that Bhaktivinoda Thakura, after visiting many different places of pilgrimage, remarked, "I would like to spend the last days of my life in Kuruksetra. I shall construct a cottage near Brahma- kunda and pass the rest of my life there. Kuruksetra is the real place of bhajana."

 

Shrewd Merchants

 

Why? Service is more valuable according to the intensity of its necessity. Shrewd merchants seek a market in wartime because in that dangerous position, money is spent like water, without any care for its value. They can earn more money if a war comes. In the same way, when Srimati Radharani's necessity reaches its zenith, service to Her becomes extremely valuable. According to its necessity, service is valued. And in Kuruksetra, Srimati Radharani is in the highest necessity because Krsna is so close, but Their Vrndavana lila is impossible. In a football game, if the ball is just inches from the goal, but again comes back, it is considered a great loss. In the same way, after a long separation, Krsna is there in Kuruksetra, so the hankering for union felt by His devotees must come to its greatest point, but because He is in the role of a king, they cannot meet intimately. The circumstances do not allow the Vrndavana lila to take place. So at that time, Srimati Radharani needs the highest service from Her group, the sakhis.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that in that situation, a drop of service will draw the greatest amount of prema, divine love. In the pastimes of Radha-Govinda, there are two aspects: sambhoga, divine union, and vipralambha, divine separation. When Radha and Krsna are very near to each other, but can't meet intimately, service at that time can draw the greatest gain for the servitors. Therefore, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "I shall construct a hut on the banks of Brahma-kunda in Kuruksetra and contemplate rendering service to the Divine Couple. If I can achieve that standard where the prospect of service is so high, then there is no possibility of returning to this mundane plane at any time."

 

The Fifth Note

 

Upon arriving in Kuruksetra, Srimati Radharani said:

 

priyah so 'yam krsnah sahacari kuru-ksetra-militas

tathdham sd rddhd tad idam ubhayoh sangama-sukham

tathdpyantah-khelan-madhura-murali-pancama-juse

mono me kdUndi-pulina-vipmdya sprhayati

 

"O my dear friend, now I am at last reunited with My most beloved Krsna in Kuruksetra. I am the same Radharani, and He is the same Krsna. We are enjoying Our meeting, but still I wish to return to the banks of the Kalindi, where I could hear the sweet melody of His flute sounding the fifth note beneath the trees of the Vrndavana forest." (Padydvali)

 

Wherever Radharani and Krsna are, Vrndavana is necessary. And Vrndavana means the favorable paraphernalia. In this way, Vrndavana is unique.

 

When Krsna met the inhabitants of Vrndavana in Kuruksetra, He first came to Nanda and Yasoda's camp after their long separation, to show parental respect to them. In the midst of their great disappointment, they felt, "Oh, our boy has come to see us at last." It was as if life had returned to the dead. After some courtesy was shown to them, Krsna made arrangements to meet privately with the gopis, and suddenly He appeared in their camp. Externally, Krsna was the leader of so many kings in India. And the gopis had come from some unknown quarter, where they lived in the jungle in the society of milkmen. Externally, they had no position, and Krsna held the highest position in the political and royal society. He was the central figure, like the eyeball in every eye. And they were in a helpless, poor and neglected condition. The gopis pleaded with Krsna, saying:

 

ahus ca te nalina-nabha padaravindam

yogesvarair hrdi vicintyam agadha-bodhaih

samsara-kupa-patitottaranavalambam

geham jusdm api manasy udiydt sada nah

 

The group of gopis told Krsna, "O You who have a lotus navel, we know that the great master yogis who have nothing to do with this mundane world try to meditate upon Your holy lotus feet. Their interest is in higher realization in the conscious world. They are said to center their highest attention on Your lotus feet. And those who are busy elevating their life in this world of exploitation are also busy worshiping Your lotus feet to escape the entanglement of action and reaction. The center of interest for the elevationists (karmis) and the Salvationists (jnanis and yogis) is Your lotus feet.

 

Krsna Country

 

"And what are we? We are simple people from the country with cows as our wealth. We are animal traders who live in the country, trade in the cow business, and sell curd and million the outskirts of society. We are neither scientific exploiters {karmis), nor are we the kind of exploiters who do research in the world of consciousness. We only know family life. We have no other qualifications. We are busy with our family life in the lower section of society. But in our audacity, we pray that if at any time You would kindly condescend to extend Your lotus feet to our negligible hearts, we would think ourselves blessed. We are busy in our family matters. We do not know scriptural life or the methods of the Salvationists. We know nothing of yoga, jnana, Vedanta or the Vedas. Our ultimate concern is neither with scriptures or moral standards. We hold a negligible position in society and simply pray that in the midst of our family life we may remember Your holy lotus feet. Please grant this to us. We can't expect anything more from You." That was their petition. Krsna replied to them, saying:

 

mayi bhaktir hi bhutanam

amrtatvaya kalpate

distya yad asin mat-sneho

bhavatinam mad-apanah

 

"Yes, I know. People want devotion to Me to achieve eternal life. To cross the limit of mortality and to have eternal life, they come to Me and worship Me. For these reasons they want My service, but fortunately for you, you have some natural affection towards Me. That will ultimately bring you to Me."

 

That is the formal or superficial meaning of what was spoken by Krsna and the gopis. But the great preceptors of our line have squeezed out another meaning from these prayers. They are conscious of the real, private relationship between the two parties, so they have drawn out another meaning based on the divine sentiment between the lover and beloved.

 

When the gopis prayed to Sri Krsna at Kuruksetra, their real meaning was this: "Oh, we remember that one day You sent Uddhava to console us. He recited many scriptural references about how the whole world is mortal, how it is nothing, how we shall all have to die—affection has no great value; attachment must be cut out. He said that we must try to liberate ourselves from any attraction for the environment and attain salvation. You wanted to tell all these apparently sweet things to us through Uddhava.

 

"Now, You Yourself are also showing us the same path. You say that You are great and that everyone should try, for their highest interest, to think of You."

 

This explanation is found in Caitanya-caritamrta. The gopis tell Krsna, "Do you think we are yogis who will be satisfied with abstract meditation on You? Can we be satisfied by imagination? We are not a party to that. Neither are we karmis, fruitive workers who are incurring a great debt from nature, who come to Your door to get relief, praying, '0 God, please relieve us from all our previous sins.' We do not belong to either of these two sections.

 

"What are we? We want to live with You as Your family. We are interested neither in abstract thinking, nor in using You to clear off the faults of karma to nullify our sinful activities. We don't want to use You for any other purpose. We want to have a direct family life with You. Don't You know that? And still You send messages through Uddhava, and now this! Aren't You ashamed of Yourself?" This is their inner meaning.

 

Krsna's Inner Answer

 

Krsna's answer also has an inner aspect. He replies, "You know, everyone wants Me. Through devotion they want Me to help them attain the highest position in the world of eternal benefit. If they have a connection with Me, they consider themselves fortunate. But on the other hand, I consider Myself fortunate because I have come in touch with the valuable affection that I found in your hearts."

 

The gopis read the inner meaning in that way. And when Radharani could see into the inner meaning of Krsna's reply. She became satisfied. "Wherever He may be in the physical sense," She thought, "At heart. He is Mine alone." She composed Her troubles within and returned to Vrndavana thinking, "He cannot but come to join our party again very soon."

 

In Padyavali, Srila Rupa Goswami reveals the inner meaning of this verse. When Krsna came to the camp of the gopis in Kuruksetra, He suddenly found Srimati Radharani and stooped down as if to touch Her feet. Radharani began backing away, saying, "What are you doing! You are trying to touch My feet?" She shuddered, "You have done nothing wrong. You are My master. You are at liberty to do whatever you want. I am Your maid servant and should try with every nerve to satisfy You. You have committed no crime. I am the criminal. How? I still drag on my body and life. This is my crime—I could not die from Your separation! Still, I show My face to the public—I am not worth Your divine affection. The whole burden of breaking the law of love is on My head."

 

Not a Bit of Divine Love

 

In this way Srimati Radharani spoke. And in a similar verse, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says:

 

na prema-gandho 'sti dardpi me harau

krandami saubhagya-bharam prakasitum

vamsi-vilasy-anana-lokanam vina

vibharmi yat prana-patangakan vrtha

 

"I have not even a bit of divine love for Krsna within Me. Not even a scent of love for Krsna is to be traced within Me. You may ask. Then why are You shedding tears profusely, uninterruptedly? Day and night. You are always shedding tears for Krsna. How do you explain this?' Oh, you don't know. I only do this to make a show and deceive the people in general into thinking that I have divine love for Krsna. In this way I want to become famous as a great devotee of Krsna. But I am a hypocrite. Why do I say so? The positive proof is this: I still live. I could not die! If I had any real love for Krsna/ I would have died from His separation. That is the positive proof that I have no trace of krsna-prema within Me."

 

 

Krsna-prema is so high and attractive that once coming in contact with it, no one can maintain his life without it. It is so high, so beautiful, so enchanting—it is heart-swallowing! It is impossible even to conceive of it. Divine love of such a high degree is known as prema. That divine love for Krsna is not to be traced in this mundane world. If by chance someone had any experience of that high and vital kind of devotion, then by any separation from that, he would die instantly. It is so beautiful and magnanimous. We are out to search only for that divine love in this world. And Sriman Mahaprabhu came to distribute that to the world for our sake.

[theist 1]

CC Madhya 8.302

: When Rāmānanda Rāya began to feel separation from Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was overwhelmed. Meditating on the Lord, he gave up all his material business.

 

 

Is this not an example of union in separation? We may make a mistake if we see vipralamba and sambhoga as completely distinct moods and argue one over the the other.

 

 

CC Madhya 8.303: I have briefly described the meeting between Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Rāmānanda Rāya. No one can actually describe this meeting exhaustively. It is even impossible for Lord Śeṣa Nāga, who has thousands of hoods.

 

 

CC Madhya 8.304: The activities of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu are like condensed milk, and the activities of Rāmānanda Rāya are like large quantities of sugar candy.

 

 

CC Madhya 8.305: Their meeting is exactly like a mixture of condensed milk and sugar candy. When they talk of the pastimes of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, camphor is added. One who tastes this combined preparation is most fortunate.

 

 

CC Madhya 8.306: This wonderful preparation has to be taken aurally. If one takes it, he becomes greedy to relish it even further.

 

 

CC Madhya 8.307: By hearing the talks between Rāmānanda Rāya and Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one becomes enlightened with the transcendental knowledge of the mellows of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Thus one can develop unalloyed love for the lotus feet of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

 

CC Madhya 8.308: The author requests every reader to hear these talks with faith and without argument. By studying them in this way, one will be able to understand the confidential truth of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

 

 

CC Madhya 8.309: This part of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's pastimes is most confidential. One can derive benefit quickly only by faith; otherwise, by arguing one will always remain far away.

 

 

We make a blunder if we come to think of this subject matter as an object of argument in the first place. So as we try to help ourselves and others come to a proper understanding of these deep topics we must be careful to not let it degenerate into an argument.

[Guest guest]

 

:

In the pastimes of Radha-Govinda, there are two aspects: sambhoga, divine union, and vipralambha, divine separation. When Radha and Krsna are very near to each other, but can't meet intimately, service at that time can draw the greatest gain for the servitors. Therefore, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "I shall construct a hut on the banks of Brahma-kunda in Kuruksetra and contemplate rendering service to the Divine Couple.

 

The message is clear enough, isn't it?

 

The real issue is that NM says that sadhakas should contemplate Radha Krishna in union and aim to serve them in their pastimes of union, whereas Srila Sridhar Maharaj says the words above.

 

At the time of Ratha-yatra when all the Vrishnis and the servants of Laksmi-devi and her Husband are enjoying the festivities, the Vraja-basi gopis see Krishna after a long period of separation. The gopis have the added feeling that this meeting is also painful in many ways since the Lord is surrounded by pomp and granduer. He is very near, and very far away at the same time. The festival of ratha-yatra where Krishna rides on a chariot brings out many intense feelings for the Braja-bashi gopis, headed by Sri Radhika. Indeed the gopis do not like to see the Lord on his chariot, surrounded as he is with all the city folk. In fact Srila Sridhar Maharaj has explained what feelings the sight of the chariot awakens within the gopis, and that the chariot is not a "nice" thing in the view of the Gopis, but only people with submission to Srila Sridhar Maharaj can really appreciate his actual message. Other people cannot grasp the meaning of what he says. They don't want to un-learn the mistaken ideas they have learned elsewhere.

 

To serve Sri Radha, as a dasi, when she is most in need of her servant's tender and affectionate assistance, is real service, in the opinion of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. As he said, only shallow thinking people like Vrndavan and advocate worship of Radha-Krishna in the mood of union. Srila Sridhar Maharaj says real devotees such as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur meditate on Sri Radha and seek to serve Her when She is in the mood of separation.

 

This is clear enough, isn't it?

[Guest guest]

Somebody might argue, "A pujari woshiping the Deities of Radha Krishna, he will feel he is serving the Deities together - in the mood of union". The worship of Radha-Krishna deities is the tradition of our sampradaya!

 

In reply to this, a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj could respond:

<b>

Have you seen the Deities installed by Srila Sridhar Maharaj at his temple in Nabadwip? He worships Mahaprabhu together with Radha and Krishna. His Guru, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur also installed the Deities in this way in all of his Gaudiya Math temples. Mahaprabhu and Radha-Govinda together on the same alter. That is, Srila Sridhar Maharaj woships Mahaprabhu who is Radha-Krishna combined, in the revalation form that was seen by Ramananda Raya.

 

Some exalted devotees such as Sri Jiva Goswami have installed Radha-Damodara and other Deities, and engaged in transcendental worship of those Deities. But the ista-deva Deities of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur are in the form of the Guru-Gauranga-Gandharvika-Govindasundarjiu - as was seen by Ramananda Raya.

</b>

===================================

 

 

CC Madhya 8.278: Rāmānanda Rāya replied, "My dear Lord, please give up all these serious talks. Please do not conceal Your real form from me."

 

CC Madhya 8.279: Rāmānanda Rāya continued, "My dear Lord, I can understand that You have assumed the ecstasy and bodily complexion of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. By accepting this, You are tasting Your own personal transcendental humor and have therefore appeared as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

 

CC Madhya 8.280: "My dear Lord, You have descended in this incarnation of Lord Caitanya for Your own personal reasons. You have come to taste Your own spiritual bliss, and at the same time You are transforming the whole world by spreading the ecstasy of love of Godhead.

 

CC Madhya 8.281: "My dear Lord, by Your causeless mercy You have appeared before me to grant me liberation. Now You are playing in a duplicitous way. What is the reason for this behavior?"

 

CC Madhya 8.282: Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure, and Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is the personification of ecstatic love of Godhead. These two forms had combined as one in Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This being the case, Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu revealed His real form to Rāmānanda Rāya.

 

CC Madhya 8.283: Upon seeing this form, Rāmānanda Rāya lost consciousness in transcendental bliss. Unable to remain standing, he fell to the ground.

 

CC Madhya 8.284: When Rāmānanda Rāya fell to the ground unconscious, Caitanya Mahāprabhu touched his hand, and he immediately regained consciousness. But when he saw Lord Caitanya in the dress of a sannyāsī, he was struck with wonder.

 

CC Madhya 8.285: After embracing Rāmānanda Rāya, the Lord pacified him, informing him, "But for you, no one has ever seen this form."

 

CC Madhya 8.286: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirmed, "All the truths about My pastimes and mellows are within your knowledge. Therefore I have shown this form to you.

 

CC Madhya 8.287: "Actually My body does not have a fair complexion. It only appears so because it has touched the body of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. However, She does not touch anyone but the son of Nanda Mahārāja.

 

CC Madhya 8.288: "I have now converted My body and mind into the ecstasy of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī; thus I am tasting My own personal sweetness in that form."

 

 

==================

 

The meaning is clear, is it not? The Lord appears as Sri Chaitanya to experience the bliss of Sri Radha in the mood of separation. We disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaj are worshippers of that Mahaprabhu.

 

yours truly,

the kanistha from the land of Oz.

[Sridas 0]

The danger of propagating Union over separation is that feeling oneself in union with Krsna can cultivate arrogance and false pride, which is the opposite of the Gaudiya vaisnavas' mood of vipralamba, that Srila Sridhara Maharaj and all of those in the Rupanuga guru varga back to Lord Chaitanya and ultimately back to Srimati Thakurani herself live in, what Guru Maharaj calls the super negative mood (of humility) that attracts the Supreme positive.

 

"I don't have a drop of love for Krsna" is the mood that comes from separation and this is the line we follow. Everything else is like the Christian evangelists or other such religionists who beleive they are saved and can save others because they are chosen by God or 'in union' with God.

 

Behind those with this union mentality you will ultimately find some subtle or gross material discrepancies, that don't always become evident immediately it is actually the very essence of sahajiyaism.

So real union will always be feeling separation, and it will be supported by all of those that are one with such conclusions. And actual disconection from Gods grace will come about in those who feel they have Him.

It's one of those day-night things, diametricly opposite to what it appears on the surface but according to who's authority we accept we will find ourselves aligned to that vision.

 

But sahajiyaism can always be corrected by the Lord Himself even as He will dismantle the false pride of the gopis, likewise He may adjust that attitude on these lower worldly levels of imitation and misconception if we allow some dainya into our heart, it's a very deep disease that tries to imitate the Lords position and may take innumerable lifetimes to correct, but by the grace of Guru and Gauranga we have at least a seed of a clue how to start the journey back home to our position as dasanudas.

Even to think we have the right conception over misconception can have it's subtle falls that can lead to aparadhe and hence a fall from grace, so as aspiring servitors our advice is to be ever vigilant..

[bija 0]

Thanks for the post Sridas. Always helpful.

[Guest guest]

Vrndavana, India: August 8, 2003

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Srila Rupa Gosvamipada, however, has written about the moods of both meeting and separation – because this separation mood is a very deep transcendental ecstatic feeling. At the time of meeting, though Radharani and Krsna are together, something is forgotten or lost in the heart. On the other hand, at the time of separation, there is complete meeting in new and fresh ways in the heart; and not only inside, but sometimes externally there are sphurtis (temporary visions in which the loved one is actually present).

Knowing all these very deep transcendental tattvas (philosophical truths) and wanting to establish the desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu within the world, Srila Rupa Gosvami also glorified vipralambha bhava, the mood of separation. Although this vipralambha bhava is very high and has many transcendental features that will not come at the time of meeting, still, it is not our goal of life. No Gaudiya Vaisnavas want that Sri Sri Radha and Krsna should be eternally separated. What kind of person would want this? No Vrajavasi would want it. Rather, there is a place for this vipralambha-bhava, and Srila Rupa Gosvami has explained this in Sri Ujjvala Nilamani: "Na vina vipralambha sambhoga pusti masnute. Without this mood of separation, then the mood of meeting will not be nourished and come to increasingly higher stages. The pastimes of separation are very important because they play the role of nourishing the sweetness of meeting."

When Srila Rupa Gosvami was in Puri with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Lord was dancing at Ratha-yatra and uttering a verse from a mundane book of poetry book called sahitya-darpana:

yah kaumara-harah sa eva hi varas ta eva caitra-ksapas

te conmilita-malati-surabhayah praudhah kadambanilah

sa caivasmi tathapi tatra surata-vyapara-lila-vidhau

reva-rodhasi vetasi-taru-tale cetah samutkanthate

["That very personality who stole away my heart during my youth is now again my master. These are the same moonlit nights of the month of Caitra. The same fragrance of malati flowers is there, and the same sweet breezes are blowing from the kadamba forest. In our intimate relationship, I am also the same lover, yet my mind is not happy here. I am eager to go back to that place on the bank of the Reva under the Vetasi tree. That is my desire."]

No one could understand why Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was uttering this verse and in what mood He was in. There was one young boy there, however, named Rupa. There and then, upon hearing this verse from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, another verse appeared in his own heart, and he wrote that verse down:

priyah so 'yam krsnah saha-cari kuru-ksetra-militas

tathaham sa radha tad idam ubhayoh sangama-sukham

tathapy antah-khelan-madhura-murali-pancama-juse

mano me kalindi-pulina-vipinaya sprhayati

[This is a verse spoken by Srimati Radharani. "My dear friend, now I have met My very old and dear friend Krsna on this field of Kuruksetra. I am the same Radharani, and now We are meeting together. It is very pleasant, but still I would like to go to the bank of the Yamuna beneath the trees of the forest there. I wish to hear the vibration of His sweet flute playing the fifth note within that forest of Vrndavana." (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 1.76)]

In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami has clarified Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's inner meaning and thus he revealed to the world the importance of parakiya-rasa. After Sriman Mahaprabhu disappeared from the vision of the world, the discussion of parakiya-rasa was not prominent. According to mundane rasa-sastra, the love between those who are unmarried is very immoral, illicit and sinful. Srila Rupa Gosvami is that very person who established within this world the innermost heart’s desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In addition to manifesting the endless varieties and wonder of vipralambha and sambhoga, he also established the superiority of parakiya-rasa. By using evidence from many different sastras, he proved that Bhagavan Sri Krsna is not an ordinary nayaka (lover) and Radhika is not an ordinary nayika (beloved). In other words, when there is meeting between a mundane lover and beloved in the parakiya mood it is very sinful, but Sri Krsna is a transcendental personality and everything is possible for Him. Therefore, if He is the object of the parakiya-bhava, there is no fault or defect in this; rather this is the topmost supremely pure manifestation of madhurya-prema.

Srila Rupa Gosvami established the fact that Lord Krsna Himself came into this world to taste these mellows, and, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Krsna Himself experienced this parakiya-bhakti-rasa which is within the heart of Srimati Radhika:

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

[“May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Saci-devi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.”( Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 1.4)]

In this way, Srila Rupa Gosvami is that person who established the innermost desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this world:

sri-caitanya-mano-'bhistam

sthapitam yena bhu-tale

svayam rupah kada mahyam

dadati sva-padantikam

["I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him. When will Srila Rupa Gosvami Prabhupada, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfil the desire of Lord Caitanya, give me shelter under his lotus feet?]

These deliberations and philosophical conclusions are extremely deep and very difficult to understand. It is therefore essential that one come under the guidance of sat-guru and Vaisnavas and give ones full time and energy, very hard labor, and enthusiastic work in the service of that Guru and in chanting harinama and doing bhajana. One should also make a great effort to understand and realize the reason for which Srila Rupa Gosvamipada appeared in this world and why he wrote so many books, such as Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Sri Ujjvala-nilamani, Sri Vidagdha-madhava and Sri Lalita-madhava. Unless one comes to the lotus feet of Sri Guru and makes a very great endeavor to understand these topics, after some time he will be taken away by maya and will engage in mundane activities. This is a very important point.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

The real issue is that NM says that sadhakas should contemplate Radha Krishna in union and aim to serve them in their pastimes of union Srila Sridhar Maharaj says real devotees such as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur meditate on Sri Radha and seek to serve Her when She is in the mood of separation.

 

This is clear enough, isn't it?

Your understanding is very unclear. Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying that to serve the divine couple when they are in separation means to help facilitate their reunion. Of course because the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami only want their reunion on Srimati Radhika's terms, not Krsna's. The point is that:

 

In the Krishna conception of theism, there is a deep-rooted correlation between union with the Lord and separation from Him. Without separation, union cannot be deep-rooted. The pain of separation can enter into the depth of the heart much more than cheerfulness. Such apprehension increases our satisfaction. The greater our want, the greater our satisfaction. This is especially true in love affairs.... — Srila Sridhar Maharaja

If you knew the real difference between Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhar Maharaja you would faint. You would not be able to remain conscious in that plane. Nor would I.

 

 

The danger of propagating Union over separation is that feeling oneself in union with Krsna can cultivate arrogance and false pride, which is the opposite of the Gaudiya vaisnavas' mood of vipralamba, that Srila Sridhara Maharaj and all of those in the Rupanuga guru varga back to Lord Chaitanya and ultimately back to Srimati Thakurani herself live in, what Guru Maharaj calls the super negative mood (of humility) that attracts the Supreme positive.

 

This is where the classic comparing apples with oranges analogy applies and this is exactly what Sridas Prabhu is doing. As followers of Srila Rupa Goswami our acaryas do not consider their own relationship in madhurya rasa with Krsna. They are in the camp of Srimati Radharani, Radha dasyam.

So Srila Narayana Maharaja is not discussing our potential separation or union with Krsna. And that is the subtlety that is transpiring here. He is discussing the separation and union of Sri Sri Radha Krsna. He is, in a very subtle way, trying to turn our attention away from ourselves to the service of the divine couple, in the camp of Srimati Radhika and within that camp, the camp of Srila Rupa Goswami. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say, "high talks, mad talks". Our real position is not so much to discuss these topics for it is a bit dangerous for us. Our only hope is the Lotus Feet of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Gaura Nitai. Sri Sri Guru Gauranga ki jaya.

[Guest guest]

"I'm not sure if he's not quoting NM selectively."

 

I was wondering the same thing about those who try to discredit Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

"There must be more to this; otherwise, why such a big stink?"

 

Politics, perhaps? Just recently we discovered that perhaps the most vocal voice in these debates (a SSM disciple from Australia) even considers Srila Prabhupada to be an offender. So, it's clear, at least to me, that he has no interest in harmonizing, which in fact was quite clearly Srila Sridhara Maharaja's mood. That's why Shakti-Fan's perspective is so refreshing--- he has clearly studied the teachings of both Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja in great depth and considers both to be his siksa Gurus.

[Guest guest]

 

If you knew the real difference between Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhar Maharaja you would faint.

 

If you knew the real difference between Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhar Maharaja you would leave your association with Narayana Maharaj.

[Guruvani 0]

Personally, I think the topic of union/seperation and all that is way out of place here in a forum.

These topics should be dealt with in personal study and in personal consulation with somone that one regards as siksha guru.

 

Battling on the internet about the topics of union and seperation of Radha and Krishna seems to be quite improper.

 

I really doubt that any of us here are really on a platform to be too much concerned about these highest topics.

[Guest guest]

 

Just recently we discovered that perhaps the most vocal voice in these debates (a SSM disciple from Australia) even considers Srila Prabhupada to be an offender.

 

In reference to that letter to Rupanuga, I said that the claim made in the letter that Srila Sridhar Maharaj caused the breakup of the Gaudiya Math is untrue. In that letter it is also said that Srila Sridhar Maharaj offended his Guru, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura, and I said that is also untrue. I said it is an offence to slander a Vaishnava for something he didn't do. Indeed, this is what the scriptures say.

 

Try and find any reliable evidence to prove the assertion that Srila Sridhar Maharaj caused the breakup of the Gaudiya Math. And if you find he didn't cause the breakup, what conclusion will you come to in regard to that letter to Rupanuga?

 

===============

 

In the beginning, during the presence of Oḿ Viṣṇupāda Paramahaḿsa Parivrājakācārya Aṣṭottara-śata Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda, all the disciples worked in agreement; but just after his disappearance, they disagreed. One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, but another group created their own concoction about executing his desires. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next ācārya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of ācārya, and they split into two factions over who the next ācārya would be. Consequently, both factions were asāra, or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the order of the spiritual master. Despite the spiritual master's order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities of the Gauḍīya Maṭha, the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision.

 

- purport to CC Adi-lila Chapter Twelve, Text 8.

 

===============

 

In this quote we find the secretaries are being blamed for the break up of the Gaudiya Math.

 

Anantavasudeva, Kunjabihari and Paramananda Vidyaratna were the trustees/secretaries.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj was never a secretary to Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura.

 

This quote in fact contradicts the things said against Srila Sridhar Maharaj in the letter to Rupanuga.

[Guest guest]

 

Your understanding is very unclear. Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying that to serve the divine couple when they are in separation means to help facilitate their reunion. Of course because the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami only want their reunion on Srimati Radhika's terms, not Krsna's.

 

Well you have explained N's ideas nicely, that is for sure.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj's teaching is that we must accept whatever the Lord wants, and do as He wills. Even Sri Radha Herself is a Dasi, a servitor. An exalted devotee may want to serve Sri Radha – but the devotees will always be submissive to the will of Sri Hari. Whatever He wants, that we shall accept. Sri Radha says:

 

aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam

adarsana marma-hatam karotu va

yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato

mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah

Krsna may embrace me in love or trample me under His feet. He may break my heart by hiding Himself from me. Let that debauchee do whatever He likes, but He will always be the only Lord of my life.

 

Narayana Maharaj clearly has a different point of view:

 

 

I think that most devotees will not be able to understand this subject, even if I continually speak about it. Only a high class of devotee can realize something – and yet I am explaining it. I don’t know why I am telling you this. This is my “bad habit”. I want to forget management and other external activities. I want to immerse myself and weep bitterly like the gopis do for Krsna. I want to serve Srimati Radhika and be very happy to control Krsna. I want that She will order me, "Be at the door of the kunja and don't let Krsna come in." These pastimes are in my heart.

 

(Who Is That Sri Radha?

Berlin, Germany: July 6, 2003)

 

[Guest guest]

 

Politics, perhaps? Just recently we discovered that perhaps the most vocal voice in these debates (a SSM disciple from Australia) even considers Srila Prabhupada to be an offender. So, it's clear, at least to me, that he has no interest in harmonizing, which in fact was quite clearly Srila Sridhara Maharaja's mood.

 

If you go to Google and type in the words "letter to rupanuga Sridhara" you will find that it brings up 461 results.

 

400+ pages on the internet where you find this letter being discussed. And most people take it for granted that the things in that letter are all true.

 

Is that good?

 

You talk about harmony, and you talk about Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Well, I have a video of Srila Sridhar Maharaj where he says that the books of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada should be edited to remove the criticisms he made of his Godbrothers. Harmonize that in your brain, if you can, GuestJJ.