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Devatas=baddha jivas?

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No way Just as we have different names God has different names as well as forms. Lord Rama worships Lord Shiva and Lord Shiva worships Lord Rama.Lord Rama has Said in Ramcharita Manas "the one who looks down on Lord Shiva can never be dear to me." It is in Puranas that once to fighting Vaishnavas and Shaivas Lord Shiva had become HariHar or half Narayana and Half SadaShiva.Lord Kali is the Shakti of Lord Shiva , When he is as Lord Narayana Kaali Ma assumes the form of Ma Lakshmi.

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I think that Shiva is a partial expansion of Krishna and Kali is a partial expansion of Radharani. So, since They are part of Their Lordships forms, I don't think They are bound by matter in the slightest (I would say to the contrary, They control matter. Kali being an incarnation of Maya Devi).

Kali and Shiva worship Radha-Krishna, and They, in turn, worship Them. (Not to mention that Kali is Lord Krishna's sister.:))

Jai Sri Sri Radha-Krishna!

Jai Kalika!

Om Namah Shivaya!

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You notice, that most people are sentimental about this. Often, they find this idea offensive, but it is an indisputable fact, as far as scripture is concerned.


Shiva is a Jiva. Kali is a Jiva. Everyone except Narayana is a Jiva.


Pramana - Read Shathapatha Brahmana. When Rudra was born, he cried to Brahma, asking him to remove his (Rudra's) sins. Only a jiva has sins.


Another Pramana - It is clearly stated everywhere in scripture that the life of Brahma is some 155 trillion human years. After this, the current Brahma dies. So, it is clear that Brahma is simply a post occupied by a Jiva which also transmigrates. If Brahma is accepted to be a Jiva, then why is Shiva not Jiva?


Lord Krishna clearly states in the Gita that every loka except Vaikuntha is in the material world.


It clearly shows that each post of a deva (including Shiva) is simply occupied by a Jiva for a particular time period. Which means, if you or me do some penance, we can become Shiva or Brahma in the next yuga as well.


Even Adi Sesha, Garuda and Lakshmi are Jivas. But they, being in Vaikuntha, are eternal and retain their identity forever. All other Devas from Brahma and Shiva onwards are still in samsara, that is irrefutable.


There is no pramana to show that Shiva is anything other than a Jiva.

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There is a strong desire by many to dominate being 'right'. We can see this again and again. Yet many times this 'right' is not built upon personal experience, but by what others have told the individual, or what was taught. With that, there is little flexibility to reason - this is the root of jalpa no doubt 'argumentative debate' with no concern of the outcome - it can bring only this poison. I pray Lord Shiva to save me from this.


yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu


Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds




Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.


Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.


Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu





How can any one take you seriously in what you have to say? Vedas are given to us by Brahma but then you say in another thread

Brahma, owing to his long life, often gets mixed up with chronology and sometimes, the details of Puranas vary, due to Yuga Bheda.


If Brahma is prone to make mistake what chance have you got to tell us the truth. Ved Vayas gave us many more puranas he has eulogised Lord Shiva as well as Lord Vishnu, as supreme but no we have to listen to your opinion and kill off Vedic gods.



Just contemplate what you write and I quote,



For instance Rudra possesses auspiciousness.


And then you say



Pramana - Read Shathapatha Brahmana. When Rudra was born, he cried to Brahma, asking him to remove his (Rudra's) sins. Only a jiva has sins.


Can one who is all auspicious be sinful ? only one who has no shame conclude so, this is not my opinion but Bhagvat puran says so


SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

I take the words of Lord Shree Krishna, when asked by Arjun

(Therefore), You alone are able to fully describe Your own divine glories, the manifestations, by which You exist pervading all the universe. (10.16)

How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

Now you may argue or interpret however you want but is clear to anyone who is honest and neutrals that lord Krishna is responding to this question, and here what he says.

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)

We all know who brings forward the beginning , middle and end, just for you in case we are reading different Shastra.

S.B 8.7.23 O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.


I am Vishnu among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun among the luminaries, I am Marici among the gods of wind, I am the moon among the stars. (10.21)

I am the Sama Veda among the Vedas; I am Indra among the Devas; I am the mind among the senses; I am the consciousness in living beings. (10.22)

Note; indra among devas where do you get jiva?

I am Shiva among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire among the Vasus; and I am Meru among the mountain peaks. (10.23)

Kill them off if you like call them jiva but I take Krishna’s words any time no where in Gita he has called them Jiva.

Jai Shree Krishna

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Hare Krishna Dark Warrior,


Lord Sadashiva is an avatara, you cannot be disrespectful to Lord Shiva. Besides remember, Vaishnavanam yatha sambuh.

This is not sentiment. It is stated right in the Bhagavatam.


Brahma, on the other hand is a jiva. Remember- from Brahma down to the ant? They are all jivas. Shiva tattva is very hard to realize, however. And Shiva is not a jiva. If you are saying Rudra, then you are right. Rudra must leave his body, and therefore is a jiva.


Thank you. I hope I am not sounding offensive.

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“O all-auspicious Yoga-Maya, I shall then appear with My full six opulences as the son of Devaki, and you will appear as the daughter of mother Yashoda, the queen of Nanda Maharaj. By auspicious presentations, ordinary people will worship you generously, with various items, because you are excellent in fulfilling the material desires of everyone. Lord Krishna blessed Maya Devi by saying: In different places on the earth, people will give you different names, such as Durga, Bhadra-Kali, Vijaya, Vaishnavi, Kumuda, Chandika, Krishnaa, Madhavi, Kanyaka, Maya, Naryani, Ishani, Sharada and Ambika.”

--Srimad Bhagavata Purana, 10.2.9-12


Jai Vaishnavi Mata!

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I am not going through it again.


Without disrespect, let me tell you that other Vaishnava Sampradayas have quite a different view on things, as compared to Hare Krishnas.

And other Vaishnava Sampradayas also have different views to things as compared to Sri Vaishnavas. :rolleyes:

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Trust me, they don't. Except the Gaudiyas.

So all Vaishnava Sampradayas (excluding Gaudiya Vaishnavism, of course) view all things the exact same way that Sri Vaishnavas do? That's strange... then I guess there should be only two Vaishnava Sampradayas- Gaudiya and Sri.

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I never knew that Sri Vaishnavas consider Lord Shiva to be a jiva!!!

The thought of that makes me angry. :mad2:

But I still respect all the Sri Vaishnavas. After all, they are Vaishnavas! :)

Yes, we should love and respect all of our brothers and sisters... something which is much easier said than done! ;)

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