presence and diksa

[cbrahma 0]

Initiation is such a volatile topic and for good reason. ISKCON has produced so many bogus gurus and they're still falling down from last report. The importance of subjugating and exploiting people seems greater than helping them on the path of self-realization. If one must go through a formal diksa initiation for any spiritual advancement to be effective, then count me out. I will not have my mind enslaved by any 'appointed' guru just so I can qualify for spiritual advancement according to some institution that has no accountability. That is too dangerous. I've seen too many damaged people who have been duped by the lie that diksa is absolutely necessary. That is an institutional/political necessity, not a spiritual one.

Prabhupada spoke on the subject of 'living guru' and I quote

"

.690113LE.LA Lectures

...vani and vapu, and vapu means the physical body, and vani means the vibration. So we are not concerned about the physical body. Not concerned means... We are concerned, of course, because the spiritual master, those who are acaryas, their body is not considered as materiel. Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that "This is a stone..." Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na... Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man's body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING. "

 

and again

 

74-11-22 Letter: Bahurupa

In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP.

 

 

75-03-14 Letter: Sivani

To take SHELTER of the Spiritual Master MEANS TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS.

SB 3.31.48

"one has to associate with liberated persons NOT DIRECTLY, PHYSICALLY, BUT BY UNDERSTANDING, THROUGH PHILOSOPHY AND LOGIC, THE PROBLEMS OF LIFE.

[Kulapavana 0]

good luck with the thread, prabhu. I just had mine closed over this very issue

[Beggar 0]

Forget ISKCON. It's GONE, going on 30 yrs. Discuss the principles and concepts.

[cbrahma 0]

The closing down of threads . Authoritarian exploitation. Strong arm tactics like this only confirm the corruption, the inability to account for one's policies and action.

 

 

good luck with the thread, prabhu. I just had mine closed over this very issue

[cbrahma 0]

I wish ISKCON were gone. There is something that calls itself that using its buildings and a handful of old disciples to run it. It might be a mirage, but even mirages can be dangerous.

 

 

Forget ISKCON. It's GONE, going on 30 yrs. Discuss the principles and concepts.

[Kulapavana 0]

I am sorry you feel that way. I think there is still a lot of value in Iskcon but some things definitely should be reformed. Personally I am ready to cooperate with any Vaishnava group that actually engages in the spreading of Mahaprabhu's mission.

[cbrahma 0]

There are so many diksa initiated disciples of Prabhupada that opted not to exploit their Spritual Master's legacy and left in complete exasperation. Actually over 90 percent of them.

And spare me the rhetoric about 'spreading...the ....Mahaprabhu...Vaisnava..."

And every permuationa and combination of those 'hot button' words that when the rubber hits the road amount - to money, power and corruption.

I'm not speaking through my orifice either. I've had first hand experience having lived at New Dwarka in the eighties when all the child molestation was going down. I've recently revisited the temple and its now just a material religion with very little shakti to speak of. All they care about is money and subservience. Very ugly.

 

 

 

I am sorry you feel that way. I think there is still a lot of value in Iskcon but some things definitely should be reformed. Personally I am ready to cooperate with any Vaishnava group that actually engages in the spreading of Mahaprabhu's mission.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

Initiation is such a volatile topic and for good reason. ISKCON has produced so many bogus gurus and they're still falling down from last report. The importance of subjugating and exploiting people seems greater than helping them on the path of self-realization. If one must go through a formal diksa initiation for any spiritual advancement to be effective, then count me out. I will not have my mind enslaved by any 'appointed' guru just so I can qualify for spiritual advancement according to some institution that has no accountability. That is too dangerous. I've seen too many damaged people who have been duped by the lie that diksa is absolutely necessary. That is an institutional/political necessity, not a spiritual one.

Prabhupada spoke on the subject of 'living guru' and I quote

"

.690113LE.LA Lectures

...vani and vapu, and vapu means the physical body, and vani means the vibration. So we are not concerned about the physical body. Not concerned means... We are concerned, of course, because the spiritual master, those who are acaryas, their body is not considered as materiel. Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that "This is a stone..." Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na... Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man's body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING. "

 

and again

 

74-11-22 Letter: Bahurupa

In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP.

 

 

75-03-14 Letter: Sivani

To take SHELTER of the Spiritual Master MEANS TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS.

SB 3.31.48

"one has to associate with liberated persons NOT DIRECTLY, PHYSICALLY, BUT BY UNDERSTANDING, THROUGH PHILOSOPHY AND LOGIC, THE PROBLEMS OF LIFE.

 

 

 

I get the sense that many of the devotees I communicate with in this forum have no concept of any sort of association other than actual physical association. They keep calling me names like ritvik and stuff just because I pointed out the some of the same quotes you provided where it shows that Prabhupada time and time again that the devotee bhagavata are identical with the book bhagavata and physical presence isn't that important.

 

I even saw a quote where Prabhupada said he only saw his spiritual master a few times and only for a very short time and that it is better to serve the spiritual master in a mood of seperation than actually physically serve him as those too close to the spiritual master are prone to get envious and make offenses.

[Kulapavana 0]

...

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I've had first hand experience having lived at New Dwarka in the eighties when all the child molestation was going down.

 

so what did you do to stop it? if nothing, than you share the burden for these sins. all of a sudden you turned crusader?

[AncientMariner 0]

Here is another good quote:

 

"Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence." (CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

[AncientMariner 0]

"There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal .[...] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spiritual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association. (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973, Page 57)

[cbrahma 0]

I only learned about it the way most people did - through the media. By then it had already hit the courts. What I did about it was decry the hypocrisy of the so-called authorities who tried to cover it up. Now you must realize that I had to leave the temple in order to make such denouncement, because the temple authorities at the time were quite desperate and would physically attack and even kill any opposition. So spare me the moral indignation. There are still incidents reported as late as this year. What are you doing about it?

 

 

so what did you do to stop it? if nothing, than you share the burden for these sins. all of a sudden you turned crusader?

[Guest guest]

I read the whole thread started by Kulapavana (which got locked down). I get a feeling the devotees you refer to in your quote below very well understand the concept of book Bhagavata & person Bhagavata. Their posts are simply a defence against the ritvik and prabhupada-only folks who wave the 'book bhagavata as good as physical presence' theory just to support their propaganda.

 

You could have all the books in the world at your disposal but in the age of Kali, a lack of genuine devotee association isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

If you're convinced your belief is tha absolute truth, try answering this question ... why didn't Pariksit Maharaj pick up a book written by some great Bhagavata and read from it the last 7 days of his life? Why did he see the need to hear it from Sukadeva Goswami?

 

 

I get the sense that many of the devotees I communicate with in this forum have no concept of any sort of association other than actual physical association. They keep calling me names like ritvik and stuff just because I pointed out the some of the same quotes you provided where it shows that Prabhupada time and time again that the devotee bhagavata are identical with the book bhagavata and physical presence isn't that important.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

There are still incidents reported as late as this year. What are you doing about it?

 

I dont live in a temple and have no direct involvement with Iskcon. I left temple life and Iskcon many years ago. I live in a non-affiliated community of devotees. If something like that happened on our turf these people would be immediatelly reported to the authorities. I work with a lot of Iskcon devotees, however, and all of them are nice, sincere Vaishnavas.

[Guest guest]

We have to make a choice now ... we can either sepnd our time & energy trying to destroy those that we believe are the villains of the piece or we can use our time & energy to propagate Krishna conciousness.

 

Like someone pointed out in another thread, there are millions of suffering souls who don't give a damn which gurus fell down and why they fell down. There is an urgent need to give them a chance to receive the mercy of Harinaam. Our energy should be spent in useful ways.

 

 

I only learned about it the way most people did - through the media. By then it had already hit the courts. What I did about it was decry the hypocrisy of the so-called authorities who tried to cover it up. Now you must realize that I had to leave the temple in order to make such denouncement, because the temple authorities at the time were quite desperate and would physically attack and even kill any opposition. So spare me the moral indignation. There are still incidents reported as late as this year. What are you doing about it?

[AncientMariner 0]

 

I read the whole thread started by Kulapavana (which got locked down). I get a feeling the devotees you refer to in your quote below very well understand the concept of book Bhagavata & person Bhagavata. Their posts are simply a defence against the ritvik and prabhupada-only folks who wave the 'book bhagavata as good as physical presence' theory just to support their propaganda.

 

You could have all the books in the world at your disposal but in the age of Kali, a lack of genuine devotee association isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

If you're convinced your belief is tha absolute truth, try answering this question ... why didn't Pariksit Maharaj pick up a book written by some great Bhagavata and read from it the last 7 days of his life? Why did he see the need to hear it from Sukadeva Goswami?

 

I would be happy to hear it from Sukadeva Goswami, I just don't want to be extorted by your type that is canvassing for disciples for your spiritual master. I don't consider that devotee association and I would much rather read a book than deal with that.

[cbrahma 0]

And how would you suggest we go about doing this? Starting up the whole bogus guru dominance process all over again.

 

 

We have to make a choice now ... we can either sepnd our time & energy trying to destroy those that we believe are the villains of the piece or we can use our time & energy to propagate Krishna conciousness.

 

Like someone pointed out in another thread, there are millions of suffering souls who don't give a damn which gurus fell down and why they fell down. There is an urgent need to give them a chance to receive the mercy of Harinaam. Our energy should be spent in useful ways.

[Guest guest]

You don't know who I am. I haven't even used an alias! Yet you make the assumption that I'm working for some Guru. What makes you think I even have a Guru?! This is the sort of speculative mentality that devotees are fighting against.

 

And in any case, your response doesn't answer my question. Not that you have to but in trying to answer it, you may understand the point I'm trying to make about 'association'.

 

Pariksit Maharaj saw a need to hear directly from a Bhagavata in the association of other great devoteees. Let's not pretend we're more advanced and can do with just books.

 

 

I would be happy to hear it from Sukadeva Goswami, I just don't want to be extorted by your type that is canvassing for disciples for your spiritual master. I don't consider that devotee association and I would much rather read a book than deal with that.

[Guest guest]

There are many things but you've been in this movement far longer. Why don't you tell us about how we can spread the Holy Name and we can have some quality discussion rather than this worthless talk about fallen gurus.

 

Door to door book distribution, for a start

 

 

And how would you suggest we go about doing this? Starting up the whole bogus guru dominance process all over again.

[cbrahma 0]

I'm not a ritvik. That has it's own set of problems. Of course there are groups of self-professed vaishanavas whose first priority is to acquire disciples and increase their ranks. This is not a spiritual goal but a material one. It is plain old-fashioned power-mongering a la Mussolini, Hitler (take your pick of despots). Please leave me out of such proselytizing. I'm just not that stupid.

 

 

 

I get the sense that many of the devotees I communicate with in this forum have no concept of any sort of association other than actual physical association. They keep calling me names like ritvik and stuff just because I pointed out the some of the same quotes you provided where it shows that Prabhupada time and time again that the devotee bhagavata are identical with the book bhagavata and physical presence isn't that important.

 

I even saw a quote where Prabhupada said he only saw his spiritual master a few times and only for a very short time and that it is better to serve the spiritual master in a mood of seperation than actually physically serve him as those too close to the spiritual master are prone to get envious and make offenses.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

You don't know who I am. I haven't even used an alias! Yet you make the assumption that I'm working for some Guru. What makes you think I even have a Guru?! This is the sort of speculative mentality that devotees are fighting against.

 

And in any case, your response doesn't answer my question. Not that you have to but in trying to answer it, you may understand the point I'm trying to make about 'association'.

 

Pariksit Maharaj saw a need to hear directly from a Bhagavata in the association of other great devoteees. Let's not pretend we're more advanced and can do with just books.

 

 

What does Prabhupada mean by this statement?

 

"In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop." (Letter to Brahmarupa Das, 22/11/74)

 

No offense but when Prabhupada contradicts what you say I am going to have to go with Prabhupada.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

I'm not a ritvik. That has it's own set of problems. Of course there are groups of self-professed vaishanavas whose first priority is to acquire disciples and increase their ranks. This is not a spiritual goal but a material one. It is plain old-fashioned power-mongering a la Mussolini, Hitler (take your pick of despots). Please leave me out of such proselytizing. I'm just not that stupid.

 

 

I apologize if I offended you. Best of luck.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

there are millions of suffering souls who don't give a damn which gurus fell down and why they fell down. There is an urgent need to give them a chance to receive the mercy of Harinaam. Our energy should be spent in useful ways.

 

yes, I very much agree with that. that is why I am ready to cooperate with any Vaishnava group that actually serves in the spreading of Mahaprabhu's mission, not merely engaging in turf wars. I see many qualified Vaishnavas in all the camps: Iskcon, SCSM, Narayana Maharaja's group, and I'm sure great preaching is a reality. We just need more of it - more preaching, less infighting.

 

I dont care what your idea of diksha may be, as long as you are doing actual service for Mahaprabhu's mission.

 

It is mind boggling to me that such a simple idea like diksha can morph into such a controversy among Prabhupada's followers

[AncientMariner 0]

 

You don't know who I am. I haven't even used an alias! Yet you make the assumption that I'm working for some Guru. What makes you think I even have a Guru?! This is the sort of speculative mentality that devotees are fighting against.

 

And in any case, your response doesn't answer my question. Not that you have to but in trying to answer it, you may understand the point I'm trying to make about 'association'.

 

Pariksit Maharaj saw a need to hear directly from a Bhagavata in the association of other great devoteees. Let's not pretend we're more advanced and can do with just books.

 

I don't mean to be so harsh on you bro and there is nothing wrong with devotee association just as long as it isn't exploitation and control etc. if you know what I mean. best of luck and sorry if I am too harsh.