Are ISKCON devotees real Vaisnavas?

[Guest guest]

In this lecture (purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20061003.shtml re. the disappearance of Sripad Svarupa Damodara Maharaja) Srila Narayana Maharaja says "He was really a Vaisnava, even from his home-life. I have seen this in Sripad Gour Govinda Maharaja, and he was like this also. They are real Vaisnavas. They followed the principles of their Guru in the real sense. They never accepted what ISKCON is now propagating."

 

What does he mean when he says that "they never accepted what ISKCON is now propagating"? What is ISKCON now propagating?

 

Is he saying that devotees in ISKCON are not "real Vaisnavas"?

[Srimanta 0]

 

In this lecture (purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20061003.shtml re. the disappearance of Sripad Svarupa Damodara Maharaja) Srila Narayana Maharaja says "He was really a Vaisnava, even from his home-life. I have seen this in Sripad Gour Govinda Maharaja, and he was like this also. They are real Vaisnavas. They followed the principles of their Guru in the real sense. They never accepted what ISKCON is now propagating."

 

What does he mean when he says that "they never accepted what ISKCON is now propagating"? What is ISKCON now propagating?

 

Is he saying that devotees in ISKCON are not "real Vaisnavas"?

 

In every institution few students brings higher marks called 1st class student. Some brings more than average they are 2nd class student. Again some brings lower marks they are 3rd class student. Sripad Svarupa Damodara Maharaja is 1st class student in ISKCON.

 

[suchandra 1]

 

In this lecture (purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20061003.shtml re. the disappearance of Sripad Svarupa Damodara Maharaja) Srila Narayana Maharaja says "He was really a Vaisnava, even from his home-life. I have seen this in Sripad Gour Govinda Maharaja, and he was like this also. They are real Vaisnavas. They followed the principles of their Guru in the real sense. They never accepted what ISKCON is now propagating."

 

What does he mean when he says that "they never accepted what ISKCON is now propagating"? What is ISKCON now propagating?

 

Is he saying that devotees in ISKCON are not "real Vaisnavas"?

 

He means divorce, there're too many broken marriages in ISKCON, yes, it's sad, especially for the children. However, when Narayana Maharaja told how he joined GM, he said, "I left in the middle of the night, never to return, although my kids were only 2 and 3 years old."

[Kulapavana 0]

Even Prabhupada would have several definitions of who is a Vaishnava - some were very inclusive, some very exclusive. Sometimes he would say that even Christians are Vaishnavas, and sometimes he would say "a Vaishnava NEVER falls down". All of them to make a particular point.

 

we should not try to use such things to create tensions among devotees.

 

it is all about context. since I do not know what NM had in mind, I will not guess. but maybe his disciples can help you.

[Guest guest]

we should not try to use such things to create tensions among devotees.

 

it is all about context. since I do not know what NM had in mind, I will not guess. but maybe his disciples can help you.

[Guest guest]

 

we should not try to use such things to create tensions among devotees.

 

it is all about context. since I do not know what NM had in mind, I will not guess. but maybe his disciples can help you.

 

GBC changed sidhanta about jiva-tattva, and guru-tattva big deal hm?

gay union, child abusers protection... HDG Srila Gour Govinda Swami, was very upset about those points, same as Damodar Maharaja... those are the differences that Srila BVNM is talking about clearly. SGGS said when some disciple inquire about when we can leave ISKCON, that we can leave when they change sidhanta, that we can not tolerate

[Guest guest]

 

same as Damodar Maharaja...

 

You say "Damodara Maharaja" but clearly you have no connection with him because if you did you wouldn't call Sripad Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaja that.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

GBC changed sidhanta about jiva-tattva, and guru-tattva big deal hm?

gay union, child abusers protection... HDG Srila Gour Govinda Swami, was very upset about those points, same as Damodar Maharaja... those are the differences that Srila BVNM is talking about clearly. SGGS said when some disciple inquire about when we can leave ISKCON, that we can leave when they change sidhanta, that we can not tolerate

 

then talk about these issues, not about who is and who is not a real Vaishnava in Iskcon. clearly, I see such things in Iskcon as real problems, but they can (and should be) be addressed directly. all I'm saying is that there is no need for additional personal attacks between the different Vaishnava camps, as it is very divisive and uninspiring. but we should talk about important philosophical and doctrinal issues, as that improves our understanding.

[Guest guest]

 

then talk about these issues, not about who is and who is not a real Vaishnava in Iskcon. clearly, I see such things in Iskcon as real problems, but they can (and should be) be addressed directly.

 

I think the guest you are replying to was simply answering the question of the original thread-starter, who asked: "What is ISKCON now propagating?" As far as talking about these issues directly, they have been discussed in great length for many years, not only by SNM, but here in these very forums. I believe most of us know where we stand on guru tattva and jiva tattva, and are probably rather weary to dredge up those old issues yet again.

 

 

all I'm saying is that there is no need for additional personal attacks between the different Vaishnava camps, as it is very divisive and uninspiring. but we should talk about important philosophical and doctrinal issues, as that improves our understanding.

 

I definitely agree with that. SNM's lecture was in glorification of Sripad Swarup Damodara Maharaja. It appears that he was honoring him to be a Vaisnava in the same category as Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, who, as most of us know by now, was about to be driven out of Iskcon due to siddhantic differences with other GBC members. As far as the exact nature of those siddhantic differences, that has been discussed ad infinitum in other lectures.

 

Just my take, for what it's worth...

[nitai16108 0]

Hare Krishna

 

All glories to sri guru and gauranga

 

All glories to srila prabhupada

 

According to prabhupad and also according to sastras

 

who is vaishnava?

 

We have to follow our previous acharyas and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. what they say regardingly.

 

Pandita sama darshina

 

here who is pandita? pandita doesnot only mean that learned scholar but he who is a vaishnava.who is vaishnava? He who is always in the smarana(remembrance) of the Lord Hari and chanting the Hare Krishna maha mantra and teaching the mantra to others and having an attitude to save others also from this material exsistance without any deviation.

 

According to the verse "pandita sama darshina"

 

A pandita will see all the forms of bodies as the same and treats equally thinking that they are also souls who are part and parcel of Lord Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupad didnt differntiate anybody. This is very important ! please try to follow Principles of Srila prabhupad and distribute the holy name of the Lord Krishna for everybody.This is the Goal of Hare Krishna Movement of Srila Prabhupad's Movement.and one more thing is that we are not even qualified to chant the holy name but by the causeless mercy of Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Our Achrayas like Srila Prabhupad and his gurus we are able to know what's what. isnt it?

so dont try to comment on somebody that means you by the comment which you are making you are starting to fall down because vaishnavas cannot be judged and we cannot understand them in what mood they said that.

 

If you are following the principles of Srila Prabhupad and if you are satisfying Srila Prabhupad then you will be able to chant hte holy name of the Lord Krishna.

 

"Trinad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadhena

kirtanya sada hari"

 

One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

 

you should consider yourself nothing and you should serve the vaishnavas for their satisfication.then by the mercy of the vaishnavas you will be given Bhakti and you will awarded the holy name to chant always.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

 

He means divorce, there're too many broken marriages in ISKCON, yes, it's sad, especially for the children. However, when Narayana Maharaja told how he joined GM, he said, "I left in the middle of the night, never to return, although my kids were only 2 and 3 years old."

 

They actually seem pretty much the same in just about every Gaudiya Vaishnava camp that I've been to. I haven't seen one camp that seemed to have more divorces than the other.

[anuptamang 0]

 

Hare Krishna

 

All glories to sri guru and gauranga

 

All glories to srila prabhupada

 

According to prabhupad and also according to sastras

 

who is vaishnava?

 

We have to follow our previous acharyas and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. what they say regardingly.

 

Pandita sama darshina

 

here who is pandita? pandita doesnot only mean that learned scholar but he who is a vaishnava.who is vaishnava? He who is always in the smarana(remembrance) of the Lord Hari and chanting the Hare Krishna maha mantra and teaching the mantra to others and having an attitude to save others also from this material exsistance without any deviation.

 

According to the verse "pandita sama darshina"

 

A pandita will see all the forms of bodies as the same and treats equally thinking that they are also souls who are part and parcel of Lord Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupad didnt differntiate anybody. This is very important ! please try to follow Principles of Srila prabhupad and distribute the holy name of the Lord Krishna for everybody.This is the Goal of Hare Krishna Movement of Srila Prabhupad's Movement.and one more thing is that we are not even qualified to chant the holy name but by the causeless mercy of Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Our Achrayas like Srila Prabhupad and his gurus we are able to know what's what. isnt it?

so dont try to comment on somebody that means you by the comment which you are making you are starting to fall down because vaishnavas cannot be judged and we cannot understand them in what mood they said that.

 

If you are following the principles of Srila Prabhupad and if you are satisfying Srila Prabhupad then you will be able to chant hte holy name of the Lord Krishna.

 

"Trinad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadhena

kirtanya sada hari"

 

One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

 

you should consider yourself nothing and you should serve the vaishnavas for their satisfication.then by the mercy of the vaishnavas you will be given Bhakti and you will awarded the holy name to chant always.

 

Hare Krishna

 

i believe that a vaishnava is not a person who keeps chanting lord's name and keeps remembering him all the time. for me, a true vaishnava is a person who sees the lord in everything he sees, does, thinks, feels, smells, tastes, hears. he is so engrossed in what he is doing that nothing bothers him. and at that state of engrossedness he finds nirvana, samadhi, or what ever you call it and the taste of it is so good that he keeps going back to it unknowingly.

[Sridas 0]

 

i believe that a vaishnava is not a person who keeps chanting lord's name and keeps remembering him all the time. for me, a true vaishnava is a person who sees the lord in everything he sees, does, thinks, feels, smells, tastes, hears. he is so engrossed in what he is doing that nothing bothers him. and at that state of engrossedness he finds nirvana, samadhi, or what ever you call it and the taste of it is so good that he keeps going back to it unknowingly.

 

Yes this is true but part of the expression of samadhi is singing and dancing

the soul is active by nature when one feels the bliss of self realization, some souls are just not satisfied and hanker to trace where such anandam springs from, the reservoir of all pleasure which leads such exalted souls as Lord Brahma to follow his heartspring which may lead to God realization and upon the Lords dharsan sing with such honor and reverence songs or kirtans like Govindam adi purusham

 

 

chintamani prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vriksha-

laksavriteshu surabhir abhipalayantam

lakshmi-sahasra-shata-sambhrama-sevyamanam

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

 

 

I worship Govinda, the Primeval Lord, the First Progenitor Who is tending the cows, yielding all desires, in abodes built with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of purpose-trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of Lakshmis or Gopis.

 

 

 

Venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam

barhavatam samasitambuda-sundarangam

kandarpa-koti-kamaniya vishesha-shobham

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

 

 

I worship Govinda, the Primeval Lord, Who is adept in playing on His flute, with blooming eyes like lotus petals, with head bedecked with peacock's feather, with the figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness charming millions of cupids.

 

 

 

Alola-chandraka-lasad-vanamalya-vamshi-

ratnangadam pranaya-keli-kala-vilasam

shyamam tribhanga-lalitam niyata-prakasham

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

 

 

I worship Govinda, the Primeval Lord, round Whose neck is swinging a garland of flowers beautified with the Moon-locket, Whose two hands are adorned with the flute and jeweled ornaments, Who always revels in pastimes of love, Whose graceful three-fold bending form of Shyamasundara is eternally manifest.

 

 

 

angani yasya sakalendriya-vrittimanti

pashyanti panti kalayanti chiram jaganti

ananda-chinmaya-sad-ujjvala-vigrahasya

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

 

 

I worship Govinda, the Primeval Lord, Whose transcendental form is full of bliss, truth, substantiality and is thus full of the most dazzling splendour. Each of the limbs of that Transcendental Figure possesses in Himself, the fullfledged functions of all the organs, and eternally sees, maintains and manifests the infinite universes, both spiritual and mundane.

 

Because each and every vibration of such glorified descriptions of our lords holy name form and pastimes give an unparalleled prema that can't be found anywhere else that our senses may worship or focus.

Therefore we sing Their praises.

 

jaya radha-govinda radha-govinda radhe

(rupa goswamir prana-dhana he)

[Guest guest]

Caitanya-Bhagavata Madhya-khanda

Translation by Sarvabhavana dasa pg 295-296

 

Spoken by Vrindavan Dasa Thakura...

The Vaisnava devotees of the Lord are eternally pure and realized souls. Sometimes there are differences of opinion amongst them, which might appear like arguments. However, in fact, there is an amazing relationship between devotees. Foolish rascals, who do not understand this exchange, praise one Vaisnava and denounce the other. Such a mentality will lead to destruction of faith and knowledge.......Such foolish persons do not know what is most beneficial for them. To criticize a Vaisnava devotee is a thousand times more sinful than offending an ordinary living entity.

[Guest guest]

 

Caitanya-Bhagavata Madhya-khanda

Translation by Sarvabhavana dasa pg 295-296

 

.Such foolish persons do not know what is most beneficial for them. To criticize a Vaisnava devotee is a thousand times more sinful than offending an ordinary living entity.

grate point!

but, in which issue vaisnavas never differ?

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna. A G T S P. P A M H O.

 

Hardly anyone is vaishnava in the world. W r t to H H Gaur Govind Maharaj & H H Bhaktisawrup Damodar Maharaj I had a forune to associate, my inner most feeling entails to agree to the author of the statement that they are real vaishnavas.

 

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Krishna, knowing Krishna to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." B Gita 7.19

 

One day if one follows the prescription and practise as per B G 5.17

 

"When one’s intelligence, mind, faith and refuge are all fixed in the Supreme, then one becomes fully cleansed of misgivings through complete knowledge and thus proceeds straight on the path of liberation."

 

There is a possibility if we remain sincere to Srila Prabhupad by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu & All vaishnavas we would have a success story to narrate.

 

Just because our body at present is in diseased conditioned we don't condemn or reject it rather cure by intensifying our devotional service to please Lord krishna The supreme personality of Godhead.

 

"A person who has broader intelligence, whether he be full of all material desire, without any material desire, or desiring liberation, must by all means worship the supreme whole, the Personality of Godhead." S Bhagwatam 3.2.10

 

 

 

All Glories to H H Narayan Maharaj and ISKCON.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

You say "Damodara Maharaja" but clearly you have no connection with him because if you did you wouldn't call Sripad Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaja that.

The Maharaja title in and of itself is a respectful address. During the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur the practice of refering to a sanyassi by the last name of his title and "Maharaja" was there in the Gaudiya Matha. In his talks Sridhar Maharaja would often refer to the author as Kaviraja Goswami. Also why should every one who had a relationship with Damodara Maharaja be forced to act like his disciple? He had many godbrothers.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

In his talks Sridhar Maharaja would often refer to the author as Kaviraja Goswami.

Should read: In his talks Sridhar Maharaja would often refer to the author of Caitanya Caritamrta as Kaviraja Goswami.