Sri Shankaracharya on Sushupti and Moksha

August 26, 2006

Ananda Wood <awood (AT) vsnl (DOT) com> wrote: Namaste,

Shri Shyam wrote (message no #32713 on 24th Aug 06):

"In sushupti there is of course no awareness of the I being in that

state - you wake up and conclude that I was in deep sleep.

From

Sankarraman

As Bhaghavan Ramana says, at the time of experiencing there is only the light; it is only subesequently, in time, memory superimposes its conclusions on the pure state.

with warm regards

Sankarraman

__,_._F,___

Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail.

August 26, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

> Srigurubhyo NamaH

> There is no dearth of verses in the Vivekachudamani mentioning

dhyana

> and Nirvikalpa samadhi.:

> 361. As gold purified by thorough heating on the fire gives up its

> impurities and attains to its own lustre, so the mind, through

> meditation, gives up its impurities of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas,

and

> attains to the reality of Brahman.

>

> 362. When the mind, thus purified by constant practice, is merged

in

> Brahman, then Samadhi passes on from the Savikalpa to the

Nirvikalpa

> stage, and leads directly to the realisation of the Bliss of

Brahman,

> the One without a second.

> 364. Reflection should be considered a hundred times superior to

> hearing, and meditation a hundred thousand times superior even to

> reflection, but the Nirvikalpa Samadhi is infinite in its results.

>

> 365. By the Nirvikalpa Samadhi the truth of Brahman is clearly and

> definitely realised, but not otherwise, for then the mind, being

> unstable by nature, is apt to be mixed up with other perceptions.

Subbuji,

Thank you 1000 times.

The purpose of my bringing this issue to the list dedicated to

Bhagavadpada is fulfilled.You are very correct when you say,

------------------------

> The above clarification can put at rest the unpleasantness caused

by

> the term `yoga'. Often it is seen that those who take up cudgels

> against yoga are doing it more out of frustration of not being

able

> to undertake the sadhana demanded by yoga, in my humble,

considered,

> observed, opinion, and not out of any genuine devotion to

Upanishadic

> system: Vedanta. Wherever the word `samadhi', `dhyana', `one-

> pointedness', ` control of senses and mind', etc. occur in the

> Upanishads, the Acharya's bhashyas and other minor texts, that

> becomes a source of uncomfortable disposition. Often some other

> meaning is sought to be given to these terms, just because the

> Acharya happens to use these. Fortunately, the Acharya has given

a

> clarification in the above sutra bhashya so that at least after

> knowing this, such misconceptions can be given up.

----------------------

I have seen vedantic acharyas clearly torturing the texts pertaining

to the above mentioned topic both of the upanishads and the bhashya

of Shankara. They think they are propogating acharya's message but

infact it is greatest injustice to the advaita vedanta propogated by

bhagavadpada. By critisizing exalted states like nirvikalpa samadhi,

practice of yoga they are actually eliminating the practical aspect

of vedanta by which one come to advaitic realisations face to face.

Acharya is very catholic and he accepts samkya philosophy as

matchless as far as the explanation of prakriti is concerned. But at

the same time he has shown the limitations of that system of thought

and brought the seekers of liberations to the heights of vedanta

step by step.

I am fortunate to hear few recorded lectures of a knower of brahman.

He was a great scholar in Shankaracharya's advaita vedanta. He was

such a fine aspirant that when his guru told and blessed with the

mahavakya Tat Twam Asi in the same evening he realised and dwelt in

samadhi conteneously for 3 days. He always said i know the brahman,

you are all brahman and you too can realise it.

One side these mystery mongers with all sorts of kundalini, serpent

power, touching magic are misguiding people and on the other hand

vedantic scholars. Religion whoose essence is realisation has become

philosophy for the enjoyment of the intellect.

I know these things very clearly. I wanted to think aloud about

these things in the list dedicated to acharya so that we all can

pause and think for some time. To day i was just thinking that by

discussing on this topic i have unnecessarily parched my throat and

i would have spent the same thime in study and contemplantion and

just your post dropped in with enlightening explanation with

scriptural authority. My joy is beyond measure.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

August 27, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

> A look into the BrahmaSutra II.i.3 where the Yoga system is refuted,

Pranams subbu-ji

"3. Thereby the Yoga (Smriti) is refuted.

This Sûtra extends the application of the preceding argumentation, and

remarks that by the refutation of the Sânkhya-smriti the Yoga-smriti

also is to be considered as refuted; for the latter also assumes, in

opposition to Scripture, a pradhâna as the independent cause of the

world, and the 'great principle,' &c. as its effects, although neither

the Veda nor common experience favour these views.--But, if the same

reasoning applies to the Yoga also, the latter system is already

disposed of by the previous arguments; of what use then is it formally

to extend them to the Yoga? (as the Sûtra does.)"

This is how the link that you provided start. Are you reading in it

something in it I am not?

There is nothing here that talks about nirvikalpa samadhi.

No one is denying the importance of shama, dama, dharana, dhyana, etc

The subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and jnanam are synonyms.

> The above clarification can put at rest the unpleasantness caused by

> the term `yoga'. Often it is seen that those who take up cudgels

> against yoga are doing it more out of frustration of not being able

> to undertake the sadhana demanded by yoga. Wherever the word

>`samadhi', `dhyana', `one- pointedness', ` control of senses and

> mind', etc. occur in the Upanishads, the Acharya's bhashyas and

> other minor texts, that becomes a source of uncomfortable

> disposition.

I quote Pujya Guruji His Holiness Swami Dayananda-ji

"Yoga is a general term that covers attitudes, values, prayers, as

well as postures and breathing techniques and meditation. In Vedanta

the goal is not the blissful absorption of nirvikalpa samadhi.

Nirvikalpa samadhi is a state of experience in which there is

resolution of the thought process. And when thoughts resume, the state

of nirvikalpa or thought-free is gone. Such an experience cannot be

the ultimate reality because what is real remains as it is. Vedanta

leads you to discover that the true self is nirvikalpa....This has to

be recognized. You do not need a special experience like samadhi to

have an experience of yourself. It is enough to analye your

experiences in waking, dream and deep sleep."

The point of recounting this is not to "prove" or "disprove" anything.

It is just to very humbly but firmly point out that baseless, blanket

speculations about what might be the underlying motivations of people

with views dissimilair to yours is both uncalled for and

nonproductive. It is also highly uncharacteristic of such a master

advaitin such as yourself, whom I both respect and admire greatly.

Words whether spoken or written, esp in Vedanta, should be carefully

measured and needless speculation avoided, in my extremely humble opinion.

Also, there should never ever be room for "frustration" for a vedantic

seeker - there is plenty of that in the nonspiritual realm of things.:-)

As Swami Chinmayananda puts it so beautifully - this is a process of

spiritual evolution not revolution. You cannot force open a bud to

make it flower. If we ever identify deficiencies in our own sadhana we

should very patiently and gently try to supplant them with a lot of

selfeffort and with an attitude of bhakti - where is the room for

"uncomfortable dispositions"??

Thereby THESE UPASANAS

> ARE AIDS TO ADVAITAJNANA. (unquote).

> Thus we see that dhyana is not rejected by the Upanishads and the

> Acharya merely on grounds of its being `purusha tantra'.

Nobody is rejecting dhyana.

If you recall in my post I had specifically mentioned "If samadhanam,

ekagrata, samahitam or even dharana -all fairly synonymous terms

indicated a singlepointedness of mind during nidhidhyasanam, is

what is "meant" by samadhi, then I agree that without this there is no

selfknowledge."

How can any vedanting say dhyana is not important when nidhidhyasanam

is the only gateway to jnana nishta??!

>

> In the Prasthana-traya bhashya of the Acharya, we come across these

> terms:

>

> Bhagavadgita: VI.19: For the word `yunjato yogam AtmanaH' occurring

> in the verse: yunjato = yogam anutiShThatataH, AtmanaH = samAdhim anu-

> tiShThataH ityarthaH.

The words samadhi do occur in the context of the Bhagwad Gita in

describing dhyana - "As light in a windless spot stirs not, this is

the simile of the yogin whose mind is controlled and who applies

himself to yoga" - the words nirvikalpa samadhi do not feature even here.

> In the verse XVIII.50, the Lord commences the succinct delineation of

> the method of apprehending the Self.

> The bhashyam says: With all senses thus quieted, he should always

> and devoutly practice dhyana or meditation upon the nature of the

> Self, and Yoga or concentration of the mind on the Self. `Always'

> implies that he has to do nothing else, no mantrajapa, etc.

The bhashyam for this verse is detailed and beautiful. Please

read.."However some selfstyled panditahs maintain that the Self being

formless is unamenable to intellectual understanding, and so the

discipline of knowledge is difficult to acquire!! This is true only of

people devoid of the advantages of the right tradition established by

a real teacher; who have not been schooled in Upanisadic wisdom; who

are in the thralls of the realm of objects, and are untrained in the

employment of the means of right intellectual cognition! But those who

are of the opposite type(advaitins) would find it very hard to deem as

real the objects which lure the wordly minded; they do not cognize

anything other than the pure consciousness that is the Self...To none

indeed at anytime is the Self an alien, to be attained or rejected or

accepted. Were that Self unknown all selfregarding activities would

turn out to be pointless. ...so just as there is no need for a pramana

to know one's body there is no need for a pramana to know the Self

that is far more intimate than the body!! So, to the discriminating,

the discipline of knowledge is very well-known indeed!!"

I am sorry I do not recognize from which part of this lenghty bhashyam

for 18.50 you got the lines you have quoted, but the above lines are

crystal clear to an unbiased reader.

>

> There is no dearth of verses in the Vivekachudamani mentioning

dhyana > and Nirvikalpa samadhi.:

I would refer you to one of the very opening lines of the teaching in

the Vivekachudamani

"58.Na yogena na sankhyena...nanyatha"

Not by yoga, not by sankhya, not by karma, not by upasana is

liberation achieved. It is only by an intellectual understanding of

the oneness of Brahman and the atman. NOT OTHERWISE"

So a yogic approach of attaining nirvikalpa samadhi as a means to

selfknowledge is rejected in the very beginning itself.

Please explain to me - if attainment of nirvikalpa samadhi is the sine

qua non of vedanta, if it be of such paramount and overwhelming

importance - shouldnt there be one - just one tiny reference to it in

the entire body of all the Upanishad and the Gita put together. The

shrutis and smritis describe so many students approaching a Guru,

gaining selfknowledge etc - shouldnt somewhere something be said to

indicate that a state of nirvikalpa samadhi has been reached in as

many words??

> All the above show beyond doubt that Ananda of Brahman that is

> mentioned in the Upanishads is not something to make the attainment

> of Brahman a desirable endeavour. It is not eulogy. It is a fact of

> experience. In fact the monumental work `Jivanmukti viveka' of Sage

> Vidyaranya is all about making the Ananda manifest by increased

> adherence to Yoga and other practices.

This is a totally different topic worthy of much discussion by itself.

In the interest of the length of this post I shall not elaborate on

this right now.

I will sum up with the basics, and i think in all humility that your

esteemed self and me will be in agreement on this -

The problem is self-ignorance due to avidya.

Only knowledge is opposed to avidya and can help you cognize the error

and thereby realize your true nature.

The self is already present - you are that already - no karma -

whether it be upasana or yoga - is going to "make" you complete - you

were never not brahman whether you know it or not.

If karma - such as yoga - could itself give you a "brahman experience"

then the upanishads, commentaries, bhasyas, adhyarosa, etc etc are all

rendered meaningless.

"Quieten the mind till it is "comfortably numb" and there the "atman

will be found to be shining in its pristine glory" These so called

neoadvaitic ideas have no scriptural sanction. A purely yogic exercise

of mind control 101 with no intellectual selfenquiry, no bhakti or

upasana, no insistence on any ethical conduct, just relentless

meditation and "stilling" of the mind culminating in a transcendental

state - this will reveal the atma??

Dhyana, bhakti or upasana, ethical living and conduct, Guru, and a

prepared intellect equipped with an integrated mind are all ABSOLUTE

MUSTS as aids - but let us not confuse these aids with the pramana

which is jnana.

There is no denying that a state of nirvikalpa samadhi can be attained

by strenuous efforts at mind control - the same transcendental state

can also be obtained my a bhakta at te height of his devotional state,

where he loses any sense of himself or herself - but these states or

experiences in these cases are temporally limited as in they have a

beginning and an end, and however exalted and worthwhile they may be

and howsoever blissful, self knoweldge they do not confer. The yogi

stil sees himself as separate from the whole and the bhakta still sees

himself as separate from his Lord. Kaivalya is atma-bodha -

self-knowledge. The atma or vastu is nirvikalpa - in and through all

the vikalpas of the mind - for a jnani who knows the truth about his

being Brahman where is the question of savikalpa or nirvikalpa

samadhi- these are partially true for him only at a vyavaharic level.

My humble pranams to you,

Shri Gurubhyo namah

Shyam

August 27, 2006

Namaste,

>

> Yes indeed - Japa yoga is also the same. Witnessing present is

also

means

> the same. That is Vedantic teaching too.

>

> Yes living in Present is sajaha samaadhi or true samaadhi.

Something makes me comfortable about equating living in the present

to Sahaja Samadhi. Yes, living in the present is a characteristic of

sahaja samadhi but isn't there more?.

Lord Krishna says about Samadhi in Gita 6.22:

Obtaining which one does not think of any other acquisition to be

superior to that, and being established in which one is not

perturbed even by great sorrow

I wonder if a person routinely practicing japa yoga or 'witnessing

present' can honestly say that. and note 6.22 only talks about a

sadhaka's samadhi state not the sahaja state of the jnani.

(From what I understand, sahaja samadhi or effortless samadhi as

described Sri Ramana, is the state of the Jnani as for example this

quote from 'Talks with Sri Ramana':

>>

In sahaja samadhi the activities, vital and mental, and the three

states are destroyed, never to reappear.

>>)

Sahaja Samadhi not only implies living in the present but also

seeing 'vasudeva in all' - the state of a jnani/siddha purusha.

Whereas witnessing the present , japa yoga etc are all in the realm

of a Sadhaka.

regards

Sundar Rajan

August 27, 2006

Namaste friends,

Re shyam-ji's statement: "the subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and jnanam

are synonyms."

Is it possible that different people, texts and sages use terminology in

slightly different ways? So we might be cautious when pitting one view

against another.

Sri Ramana Maharshi puts it in the following way:

(1) Holding on to Reality is samadhi.

(2) Holding on to Reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi.

(3) Merging in Reality and remaining unaware of the world is nirvikalpa

samadhi.

(4) Merging in Ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is sleep.

(5) Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort is sahaja

nirvikalpa samadhi.

(from "Talk 391")

He further explains what He means by the difference between (3) and (5) in

another talk:

"Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, when he

emerges from it he will find himself in the environment which he is bound to

have. That is the reason for the Acharya emphasising sahaja samadhi in

preference to nirvikalpa samadhi in his excellent work Viveka Chudamani. One

should be in spontaneous samadhi - that is, in one's pristine state - in

the midst of every environment." (Talk 54)

and again in Talk 187, Sri Ramana explains both (3) and (5) as nirvikalpa

samadhi, but the sahaja type alone is permanent....

- In sleep the mind is alive but merged in oblivion (see (4) above).

- In kevala nirvikalpa samadhi, the mind is alive but merged in light, like

a bucket with rope lowered into a well, that can be drawn out again.

- In sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, the mind is dead , resolved into the Self,

like a river discharged into the ocean - its identity lost - and which can

never be re-directed from the ocean, once discharged into it.

(Talk 187)

A similar explanation is given in Talk 465, wherein Sri Bhagavan says:-

(1) Meditation should remain unbroken as a current. If unbroken it is called

samadhi or Kundalini sakti.

(2) The mind may be latent and merge in the Self; it must necessarily rise

up again; after it rises up one finds oneself only as ever before. For in

this state the mental predispositions are present there in latent form to

remanifest under favourable conditions.

(3) Again the mind activities can be completely destroyed. This differs from

the former mind, for here the attachment is lost, never to reappear. Even

though the man sees the world after he has been in the samadhi state, the

world will be taken only at its worth, that is to say it is the phenomenon

of the One Reality. The True Being can be realised only in samadhi; what was

then is also now. Otherwise it cannot be Reality or Ever-present Being. What

was in samadhi is here and now too. Hold it and it is your natural condition

of Being. Samadhi practice must lead to it. Otherwise how can nirvikalpa

samadhi be of any use in which a man remains as a log of wood? He must

necessarily rise up from it sometime or other and face the world. But in

sahaja samadhi he remains unaffected by the world. So many pictures pass

over the cinema screen: fire burns away everything; water drenches all; but

the screen remains unaffected. The scenes are only phenomena which pass away

leaving the screen as it was. Similarly the world phenomena simply pass on

before the Jnani, leaving him unaffected. You may say that people find pain

or pleasure in worldly phenomena. It is owing to superimposition. This must

not happen. With this end in view practice is made. Practice lies in one of

the two courses: devotion or knowledge. Even these are not the goals.

Samadhi must be gained; it must be continuously practised until sahaja

samadhi results. Then there remains nothing more to do.

(Talk 465)

>From the previous passages it would seem that "2" above (the mind latent and

merged in the Self) refers to Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The important

distinction between this and "3", Sahaja Samadhi, is that in the latter "the

mind is dead". This is the natural state of the Jnani who can move in the

world (or, at least appear to us to do so) and remain unaffected by it.

Is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi a synonym of Jnanam? It would seem, yes and no,

or not quite, if I have understood correctly. Whereas Sahaja Nirvikalpa

Samadhi is Jnanam.

Loss of body consciousness in samadhi is not the same as 'dead mind',

destruction of ego. Thus when the disciple asks, "Is loss of

body-consciousness a perquisite to the attainment of sahaja samadhi?" Sri

Ramana replies:

"What is body-consciousness? Analyse it. There must be a body and

consciousness limited to it which together make up body-consciousness. These

must lie in another Consciousness which is absolute and unaffected. Hold it.

That is samadhi. It exists when there is no body-consciousness because it

transcends the latter, it also exists when there is the body-consciousness.

So it is always there. What does it matter whether body-consciousness is

lost or retained? When lost it is internal samadhi: when retained, it is

external samadhi. That is all. A person must remain in any of the six

samadhis so that sahaja samadhi may be easy for him."

(Talk 406)

Below, Sri Ramana refers to samadhi, not as a state to be gained, as in some

of the many different types but as our natural state. He also points out the

importance of the waking state, which I believe was a queery in another

thead:

"Samadhi is one's natural state. It is the under-current in all the three

states. This - that is, 'I' - is not in those states, but these states are

in It. If we get samadhi in our waking state that will persist in deep sleep

also. The distinction between consciousness and unconsciousness belongs to

the realm of mind, which is transcended by the state of the Real Self."

(Talk 136)

"By sravana, Knowledge dawns. That is the flame.

By manana, the Knowledge is not allowed to vanish. Just as the flame is

protected by a wind-screen, so the other thoughts are not allowed to

overwhelm the right knowledge.

By nididhyasana, the flame is kept up to burn bright by trimming the wick.

Whenever other thoughts arise, the mind is turned inward to the light of

true knowledge.

When this becomes natural, it is samadhi.

The enquiry "Who am I?" is the sravana.

The ascertainment of the true import of 'I' is the manana.

The practical application on each occasion is nididhyasana.

Being as 'I' is samadhi."

(Talk 647)

"Eternal, unbroken, natural state is jnana." (Talk 385)

Kind regards to all,

Peter

August 27, 2006

>

> advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v@>

> wrote:

>

> > A look into the BrahmaSutra II.i.3 where the Yoga system is

refuted,

>

> Pranams subbu-ji

>

> "3. Thereby the Yoga (Smriti) is refuted.

> > This is how the link that you provided start. Are you reading in

it

> something in it I am not?

> There is nothing here that talks about nirvikalpa samadhi.

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste Shyam ji,

The idea behind quoting only the portion that i did from the bhashya

is to point out that yoga is not dismissed in-toto. In the true

spirit of a-virodha, the Acharya acknowledges what is not only non-

contradictory to the Veda but also that which is positively relevant

in that system that is in accordance to the Vedantic teaching is

admissible. And he explicitly says that the terms 'sankhya'

and 'yoga' are vedic in the quotes provided from the Upanishads

themselves by the purva-pakshin. My intention was also to point out

that there is a general tendency to consider these terms and all

other terms connected with them as not belonging to Vedanta and

therefore not of any relevance to Vedanta and therefore to be

shunned. That such is not the case, i suppose, is clear from the

Acaharya's words in the Bhashyam. That i feel settles that misplaced

idea about these terms when used in Vedanta.

Here is the relevant portion from this bhashya:

(Quote)

In the passage quoted ('That cause which is to be apprehended by

Sânkhya and Yoga') the terms 'Sânkhya' and 'Yoga' denote Vedic

knowledge and meditation, as we infer from proximity . We willingly

allow room for those portions of the two systems which do not

contradict the Veda. In their description of the soul, for instance,

as free from all qualities the Sânkhyas are in harmony with the Veda

which teaches that the person (purusha) is essentially pure; cp. Bri.

Up. IV, 3, 16. 'For that person is not attached to anything.' The

Yoga again in giving rules for the condition of the wandering

religious mendicant admits that state of retirement from the concerns

of life which is known from scriptural passages such as the following

one, 'Then the parivrâgaka with discoloured (yellow) dress, shaven,

without any possessions,' &c. (Jâbâla Upan. IV).(unquote) Here is the

link to the entire bhashya on this sutra:

> The subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and jnanam are synonyms.

I would request you to wait for a little more time till i post that

dialogue that i have promised. That will answer several questions on

the subject.

..

>It is just to very humbly but firmly point out that baseless,

blanket

> speculations about what might be the underlying motivations of

people with views dissimilair to yours is both uncalled for and

> nonproductive. It is also highly uncharacteristic of such a master

> advaitin such as yourself, whom I both respect and admire greatly.

> Words whether spoken or written, esp in Vedanta, should be carefully

> measured and needless speculation avoided, in my extremely humble

opinion.

Dear Shyam ji, let me first apologise if my remarks have caused pain

to anyone. My idea is this: This is a List that has as its main

theme the discussion of Advaita as taught by the Upanishads and the

Acharya. Let me mention this one point:

In the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad we have the teaching about the

shravana, manana and nididhyasana for realization of Atman. The

Acharya comments:

Nididhyasana. He writes: nischayena dhyAtavyaH. It has to be

intensely meditated upon. Evam hi asau driShTo bhavati = Only thus

the Atma becomes realized by the practice of these sadhanas of

shravana, manana AND nididhyasana. He continues: When these are done

compositely then samyagdarshanam of the Unity of Brahman comes to

one's realization, AND NOT OTHERWISE BY RESORTING TO SHRAVANA ALONE.

The popular gloss of Anandagiri states: shravana is pradhana, main,

as it is an enquiry into the pramana. Manana and nididhyasana, being

the removers of the obstacles to jnanam get the status of ancillary.

When shravana and the others are repeatedly practiced compositely,

then as the means become adequately strengthened, then tattvajnanam

that is fruitful arises. (unquote)

(There is indeed that rare case where jnana dawns just upon hearing

the teaching about the Truth. But that is a very rare case where it

is inferred that all the other sadhanas were done in earlier births.

This is not the general case, but an exception.)

I pointed out this to show that the Upanishad and the Acharya hold

that nididhyasanam is a preceding step to jnanam. If it is said that

nididhyasanam is for 'jnana-nishtha', it would imply that there is

already jnanam through shravana-manana and one is a jnani. What is

required is only jnananishtha, to strengthen the knowledge already

acquired. This is quite contrary to the teaching of the Acharya.

Supposing one concludes that after shravana and manana that one has

got jnanam, and what is required is only establishment in jnanam

which is achieveable through nididhyasanam, this situation is

unavoidable: What is the limit or criterion of jnana nishta. If

death precedes a person's completion of nididhyasanam, what is the

conclusion? Will he be liberated because he has already got jnanam

before nididhyasanam? The answer as per the shastra is no. The

avidya-destroying jnanam not having arisen in him through

saakshaatkaaram, aparoksha jnanam, this person will be definitely

born again. On the contrary, if it is held, as per the shastra, that

jnanam has arisen after the composite practice of the triad, whether

the person dies the very next moment after this saakshaatkaram or

after several years, his freedom from rebirth is guaranteed. Now you

can decide whether the view that nididhyasanam is for attaining

jnananishtha is in accordance with the Acharya's teaching. It is

definitely not my personal views that i want to impose. It is the

view of the teaching as i have understood and as I am trying to

understand that i share with members.

> Also, there should never ever be room for "frustration" for a

vedantic

> seeker - there is plenty of that in the nonspiritual realm of

things.:-)

> As Swami Chinmayananda puts it so beautifully - this is a process of

> spiritual evolution not revolution. You cannot force open a bud to

> make it flower. If we ever identify deficiencies in our own sadhana

we

> should very patiently and gently try to supplant them with a lot of

> selfeffort and with an attitude of bhakti - where is the room for

> "uncomfortable dispositions"??

This is very nicely said.

> Thereby THESE UPASANAS

> > ARE AIDS TO ADVAITAJNANA. (unquote).

> > Thus we see that dhyana is not rejected by the Upanishads and the

> > Acharya merely on grounds of its being `purusha tantra'.

>

> Nobody is rejecting dhyana.

> If you recall in my post I had specifically mentioned "If

samadhanam,

> ekagrata, samahitam or even dharana -all fairly synonymous terms

> indicated a singlepointedness of mind during nidhidhyasanam, is

> what is "meant" by samadhi, then I agree that without this there is

no

Ø selfknowledge."

That clarifies the point very well.

>

> How can any vedantin say dhyana is not important when nidhidhyasanam

> is the only gateway to jnana nishta??!

> > In the Prasthana-traya bhashya of the Acharya, we come across

these

> > terms:

> > Bhagavadgita: VI.19: For the word `yunjato yogam AtmanaH'

occurring

> > in the verse: yunjato = yogam anutiShThatataH, AtmanaH = samAdhim

anu-

> > tiShThataH ityarthaH.

>

> The words samadhi do occur in the context of the Bhagwad Gita in

> describing dhyana - "As light in a windless spot stirs not, this is

> the simile of the yogin whose mind is controlled and who applies

> himself to yoga" - the words nirvikalpa samadhi do not feature even

here.

>

> > In the verse XVIII.50, the Lord commences the succinct

delineation of

> > the method of apprehending the Self.

> > The bhashyam says: With all senses thus quieted, he should

always

> > and devoutly practice dhyana or meditation upon the nature of the

> > Self, and Yoga or concentration of the mind on the Self.

`Always'

> > implies that he has to do nothing else, no mantrajapa, etc.

>

> I am sorry I do not recognize from which part of this lenghty

bhashyam for 18.50 you got the lines you have quoted, but the above

lines are crystal clear to an unbiased reader.

I think you missed the line where i had mentioned: in the verse

no.18.52...the quote is from the commentary for this verse.

Vivekachudamani

>

> "58.Na yogena na sankhyena...nanyatha"

> Not by yoga, not by sankhya, not by karma, not by upasana is

> liberation achieved. It is only by an intellectual understanding of

> the oneness of Brahman and the atman. NOT OTHERWISE"

> So a yogic approach of attaining nirvikalpa samadhi as a means to

> selfknowledge is rejected in the very beginning itself.

The brahmasutra quote that i have given in the commencement clearly

says that these terms are quite agreeable in the vedantic context.

The specific shastras of the above seers have been refuted as being

not in accordance with Vedanta. If this clarification is not kept in

mind while reading the verses of the Vivekachudamani on

Nirvikalpasamadhi, one would have to conclude that the Acharya is

contradicting himself by saying one thing in verse 58 and quite

another later. Trust this point is clear.

I wish to draw your attention to verse 268 of the Vivekachudamani.

> Please explain to me - if attainment of nirvikalpa samadhi is the

sine qua non of vedanta, if it be of such paramount and overwhelming

> importance - shouldnt there be one - just one tiny reference to it

in the entire body of all the Upanishad and the Gita put together.

The shrutis and smritis describe so many students approaching a Guru,

> gaining selfknowledge etc - shouldnt somewhere something be said to

> indicate that a state of nirvikalpa samadhi has been reached in as

many words??

My endeavour is not to say that attainment of nirvikalpa samadhi is

the sine qua non of Vedanta. I had earlier mentioned in this list

that Atma jnanam can arise from vichara itself. What I wanted to

convey is that its importance and relevance is not to be denied

either. That was the reason I pointed out the various passages from

the Acharya's bhashya. The name Nirvikalpa and savikalpa may not be

there in the bhashya. But the sub-commentators point out this. For

example, Anandagiri makes a note of the clear distinction between

these two samadhis in his gloss to the Acharya's bhashyam on the

Gita verse VI.20. He uses the terms samprajnata and asamprajnata

samadhis. The bottom line is nididhyasanam is intense dhyanam as

per the Acharya's words. If even this is not accepted, there is

certainly a deviation from the main core of the Advaitic teaching.

Even in the case of those who get Atma Saakshatkaram through vichara,

Sri Vidyaranya points out in the Jivanmukti viveka that a `kshaNika

savikalpa samadhi' is what brings about the momentous realization.

All these can be appreciated only if by realization it is admitted

that it is not a gradual happening. As the Brahmasutra bhashya I

quoted much earlier says that the `gradual' is prior to the dawn of

knowledge. But in saakshaatkaaram no evolution is admitted. That is

the reason that a study of various texts is prescribed in Vedanta

sadhana. The other texts often serve the purpose of bringing out

explicitly what is hinted at implicitly in the Bhashya.

There is this reference: The MaitrAyaNi Upanishad mentions about

Nirvikalpa samadhi in mantras: IV.4.9:

The bliss that is had by the mind that has been cleansed of

impurities by samadhi and which is absorbed in the Atman cannot be

described in words. It is experienced by the mind itself at that

time.

The context of the Prashna Upanishad gives us a hint to this. All

those who approached the teacher, were great sadhakas having

completed saguna brahma upasana. They wanted the liberating wisdom.

This shows such a kind of adhikari will be able to fix his mind

intensely on the Atman/Brahman taught and attain the goal.

Nididhyasanam and the subsequent dawn of realization for them will

be comparatively very easy.

Again the issue is of much more wider nature. That is why a study

of the work 'Jivanmukti viveka' will be of immense use in

appreciating these points. However, let me just mention one quote

from this work which is of paramount importance to sadhakas:

(quote)

In the case of the person who has performed meditation to the extent

of realizing the prescribed object of meditation (such as a form of

God) and thereafter strives for the knowledge of the Truth, by virtue

of his firm obliteration of mental tendencies (vasanas) and

dissolution of mind (mano-nasha), the renunciation of a knower

(vidwat-sannyasa) and jivanmukti occur automatically on the dawn of

the realization of the Truth. SUCH INDEED IS THE PERSON WHO IS PRE-

EMINENTLY FIT FOR ENIGHTENMENT AND CONSIDERED BY THE SCRIPTURE.

Now-a-days men rush in quest of Gnosis, out of sheer curiosity, in

most cases even without going through the preliminary stage of

devotion, upasana. They even reach the stage of the obliteration of

vasana and the dissolution of the mind, and in consequence, study,

contemplation and assimilation (of the Vedanta) are also fully

accomplished by repeated application to these three; ignorance, doubt

and false perception are demolished; and real Gnosis is achieved. In

the absence of a more powerful means to counteract it and of any

cause which can resuscitate the ignorance dispelled by it, the

resultant Gnosis does not fade. But then the obliteration of latent

impression, vasanas and the dissolution of the mind are easily

extinguished, like a lamp exposed to the breeze, for want of steady

application and in consequence of being influenced, from time to

time, by the fruit-bearing previous karma......Therefore it is

obvious that the obliteration of latent impressions and dissolution

of the mind could be brought about only by personal effort.

(unquote)

What is it that is desired through liberation? Is it mere freedom

from re-birth? Is it not supreme peace for the mind? Is it not

freedom from the innumerable pulls of the mind that constitutes true

freedom? If it is said that `it is all for the mind and not for me',

Swami Vidyaranya jests: Then let there be only samsara for you !

>

> I will sum up with the basics, and i think in all humility that your

> esteemed self and me will be in agreement on this -

>

> The problem is self-ignorance due to avidya.

> Only knowledge is opposed to avidya and can help you cognize the

error

> and thereby realize your true nature.

> The self is already present - you are that already - no karma -

> whether it be upasana or yoga - is going to "make" you complete -

you were never not brahman whether you know it or not.

> If karma - such as yoga - could itself give you a "brahman

experience"

> then the upanishads, commentaries, bhasyas, adhyarosa, etc etc are

all

Ø rendered meaningless.

The atma or vastu is nirvikalpa - in and through all

> the vikalpas of the mind - for a jnani who knows the truth about his

> being Brahman where is the question of savikalpa or nirvikalpa

Ø samadhi- these are partially true for him only at a

vyavaharic level.

All this is very well said. All the practices assume importance

before such realization arises. A question remains unanswered: what

is the samadhi that the Acharya is talking about in the VI chapter of

the Gita? Is it dhyana or dharana or samadhanam of the sadhana-

chatushtaya that is required before undertaking shravanam? The

Acharya could very well have used one of these terms. He was quite

aware of them. The importance of these practices were spoken of by

the Acharya in the Vivekachudamani and other texts as not in

isolation but in the context of the Upanishadic teaching. By

themselves they will not confer Self Realization. That is quite

known. That is why the Acharya refuted these schools. All the

effort of what was said in my earlier post was to say that the

practice of yoga has a definite purpose in the Advaitic realization.

The Upanishad itself teaches this as the means for saakshaatkaram for

example, in the Kathopanishad.

My humble pranams to you,

Subbu

Om Tat Sat

>

August 27, 2006

Shree Sundar Rajanji - PraNams, I am delighted to continue this discussion.

There is a psychological time and chronological time. Chronological time is vyAvahArika satyam and has only relative existence and from absolute point has no relevance. Psychological time is figment of imagination. Both have existence with the mind (both subjective world and the objective world - those are the prathama and dvitiiya paadas discussed in the Mandukya) - as concepts in the mind. Hence both disappear temporarily in the deep sleep state where even the awareness of the present is also not there. Jnaani is the one who lives only in the chronological time with deep realization that it has no absolute relevance.

Psychological time arises with ego identification with the past and future and bringing that burden to the present. Hence ajnaani lives in the past and the future, only fleetingly in the present, except when he is deeply involved in any action. where he temporarity trascends both times, However he entered into the action with future in mind and dragging the past with him, he soon he gets distracted with the notion of the past and future with expectation of fruits of the action, and sense of accomplishment as 'I have done it or I did not do it,' etc.

Aware of the present implies aware of the absence of any time in the absolute sense since what is there is only present - hence one can only act in the present and enjoy in the present and live only in the present and in the present there is no time! What is there is only the living presence - I am -with all that which is - the is-ness of the world or objects with names and forms.

But an intense consciousness of the present in japa yoga - is shifting to that which is beyond time -

na jaatu mRiyateva kadAchit nAyam bhUtvA nabhavitAva na bhUyaH|

ajonityam swAswatoyam purAno, na hanyate hanyamAne sharIre|

That is recognizing I am - the existence-awareness that illumines all that is there in the present. -I am that eternal beyond the very time concept. In that understanding a recognition arises that the there is no duality in existence or awareness - not intellectually but factually - since intellect is again a thought identification. In contrast to the deep sleep state - the mind is very present as reflecting pool of the consciousness that you are - sarvam khalu idam brahma and ayam Atma bhrama - becomes a reality not a dictate from the scriptures, not because of what AchAryas said so, not because Vedanta ascertains - it is absolute truth glaring it all its glory - there is no separateness since that is a thoughts.

When that shift becomes permanently ascertained (what Bhagavaan Ramana calls as dRiDaiva nishhTaa) - you are in sahaja samaadhi. Mind has understood - it can get in to chronological time but shift in awareness will not cease - that I am that existence-awareness aware of this this this that as part of existence as objects and thoughts of the objects, and existence of the subject who is conscious of the objects. Thus I am aware of the apparent duality in the mind (the subject-object duel existence) but I am undifferentiable existence that supports the apparent. That is the sahaja samaadhi - and that is also nirvikalpa samaadhi. All other apparent states are only apparent evolutionary states for saadhak to arrive at this understanding (I am not using the word 'state' any more).

Now japa yoga is A MEANS to arrive at this stage where I am providing for the mind to have an avocation to repeat the same thought and that thought loused on the IShaTadevata so that it done go off tangent to other dissimilar thoughts. Japa becomes yoga when I slowly shift my attention from the thought to the awarer of the thought. That is the witnessing of the thought. That helps to detach oneself with the thought since witness is not involved in what is witnessed. The witness is an awareful being while what is witnessed is jadam or inert. Now the Vedantic teaching helps to ascertain that 'you are that' - that unqualified awareness that is ever existent being. That is the beginning of the samaadhi. Firm abidance in that is the nidhidhyaasanam. That is the nirvikalpa samAdhi or sahaja samaadhi where whatever that I am aware of does not displace my understanding that I am that very awareness because of which only I am aware of this or that. Your question is 'can this

happen to the one who routinely practices japa yoga?'. If that routine is mechanical - no it cannot. What is involved is intense awareness that I am that awareful being - the witness that is witnessing. Hence the word I used is vigilance. A firm abidance in that is needed to get out the habitual or mechanical thinking with the notion that what I am is what I think than what I am. Try NOW - that that is all that is truely available. In now only we can transcend both psychological and chronological times while the mind is still there (not in suShupti).

In sahaja samaadhi - all activities are present as usual as dynamic present where your presence alone counts. The others are there but they do not count - that is the ADVAITA just one plus many gold ornaments is just one gold - advaita in spite of dvaita - non-duality in spite of duality - one that really counts while the rest are uncountable counts.

Japa yoga should lead to this just as other yogas to where the mind gets slowly purified and get firm abidance in that knowledge that I am that I am. Self inquiry that bhagavaan Ramana asks is also the same thing too. In stead of japa one is trying to discard what I am not to establish to what I am. Japa leads to witnessing self to the very awareness because of which I am playing the role of witness. Japa to turn to yoga involves intense awareness rejecting the witnessed (idam) in shifting into aham - the very awareness that I am that is that counts in the PRESENT - my presence. Mandukya brings this out very vividly in the discussion of turiiyam.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

Sundar Rajan <avsundarrajan >

Something makes me comfortable about equating living in the present

to Sahaja Samadhi. Yes, living in the present is a characteristic of

sahaja samadhi but isn't there more?.

Lord Krishna says about Samadhi in Gita 6.22:

Obtaining which one does not think of any other acquisition to be

superior to that, and being established in which one is not

perturbed even by great sorrow

I wonder if a person routinely practicing japa yoga or 'witnessing

present' can honestly say that. and note 6.22 only talks about a

sadhaka's samadhi state not the sahaja state of the jnani.

(From what I understand, sahaja samadhi or effortless samadhi as

described Sri Ramana, is the state of the Jnani as for example this

quote from 'Talks with Sri Ramana':

>>

In sahaja samadhi the activities, vital and mental, and the three

states are destroyed, never to reappear.

>>)

Sahaja Samadhi not only implies living in the present but also

seeing 'vasudeva in all' - the state of a jnani/siddha purusha.

Whereas witnessing the present , japa yoga etc are all in the realm

of a Sadhaka.

regards

Sundar Rajan

August 27, 2006

advaitin, "Peter" <not_2 wrote:

>

> Namaste friends,

>

> Re shyam-ji's statement: "the subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and

jnanam

> are synonyms."

>

> Is it possible that different people, texts and sages use terminology in

> slightly different ways? So we might be cautious when pitting one view

> against another.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi puts it in the following way:

>

> (1) Holding on to Reality is samadhi.

> (2) Holding on to Reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi.

> (3) Merging in Reality and remaining unaware of the world is nirvikalpa

> samadhi.

> (4) Merging in Ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is sleep.

> (5) Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort is sahaja

> nirvikalpa samadhi.

> (from "Talk 391")

>

Namaste Peter-ji

Pranams to you.

Thank you for the excellent synopsis of Bhagwaan Ramana's teachings.

One cannot read them often enough!

This particular example was very beautiful, and should lay to rest any

confusions in the seekers minds, (and is also similair to Bhagwaan

Krishna's example in the Gita).

"By sravana, Knowledge dawns. That is the flame.

By manana, the Knowledge is not allowed to vanish. Just as the flame

is protected by a wind-screen, so the other thoughts are not allowed

to overwhelm the right knowledge.

By nididhyasana, the flame is kept up to burn bright by trimming the wick.

Whenever other thoughts arise, the mind is turned inward to the light

of true knowledge. When this becomes natural, it is samadhi."

I agree with you that sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi as defined above is a

description of a jnani.

Perhaps solely due to my temperament and orientation, I still prefer

the term jnanam/jnani/atmabodha, etc so as to avoid any confusion when

talking about this.

In my humble opinion this again underscores how important the

shruti-pramana is, as terms not contained in the shruti and clearly

defined by the shruti, become anyone's game, in a manner of speaking,

to define, modify and classify.

My pranams to Subbu-ji as well for his customary excellent

clarifications and references.

Shri Gurubhyo namah

Shyam

August 27, 2006

Dear Advaitins,

A brahmachari was interacting with an elderly respected monk. The

monk is a scholar in sanskrit and knows the scriptures thoroughly.

When asked about his realisation of the truths in the upanishads he

humbly told it seems- I am unable to see the truth face to face.

Probably i will go to brahmaloka after death attain illumination

there. Is it not simple, nice and a honest reply?

We are all progressing towards truth, but why we should torture

texts, tell lies to oneself and others to convince that what we know

everything under the sun and the beyond?

The upanishads and the bhashyas of the acharyas of different

philosophical thought is very absturse. Infact Swami Ashokananda who

was a monk of Ramakrishna Order once opined it is rather impossible

to know the real import of certain passages of the upanishads in

modern times. In the scriptures it is said one should approach the

teacher who is shrotriayma and brahmanishtam. Scholarship alone is

not sufficient realisation is also required.

In my humble opinion when we try to understand the upanishads and

the bhashyam we should study the recent enlightened masters like Sri

Ramana, Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda and tally with their

experiecne and their statements. Then only we will be able to catch

the spirit behind the upanishads and the bhashyams.

One paragraph of sayings of Bhagavan Ramana or Sri Ramakrishna is

more valuable than the 1000 hours of lecture by a scholar without

spiritual attainment.

Let me conclude with a story- Once a king was listening to a

religious discourse daily from a pandit. after a long time the king

told to his minister it seems. The teachings of the pundit is not

causing any effect in me i do not know why. Then the next day the

pandit was called to the court and minister tied both the king and

the pundit to different pillar and said- Pundit remove the bondage

of the king. Then the pundit told itseems, Dear Sir- i myself is

bound and how can i remove the bondage of the king? The minister

looked at the king and smiled :-)

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

August 27, 2006

Pranams Shyam-ji

>

> I quote Pujya Guruji His Holiness Swami Dayananda-ji..

> You do not need a special experience like samadhi to

> have an experience of yourself. It is enough to analye your

> experiences in waking, dream and deep sleep."

>

Interesting. I don't know the full context in which this has been

quoted but statements such as the one above were questioned way back

in 2001 in a thread discussing the commentaries on the 6th chapter

of Gita. Looks like we are going over the same territory again.

Wonder if we have archives of those discussions.

I don't want to go over all of it again but here is Sankara's direct

statement from the commentary on the Brahma sutra "samadhy-

abhavacca ":

oupanishad atmapratipattiprayojanaha Samadhi upatishthahah vedantesu

In the Upanishads, Samadhi is taught as the means for the

(pratipatti) for the realization of the (oupanishada Atma) the atman

that is known through the Upanishads alone

As has been pointed by Sri Subbu-ji and others, Samadhi is not the

only means, Vichara is also a valid means.

regards

Sundar Rajan

August 27, 2006

Pranams Sri Subrahmanian-ji

>>

Often it is seen that those who take up cudgels

against yoga are doing it more out of frustration of not being able

to undertake the sadhana demanded by yoga, in my humble,

considered, observed, opinion, and not out of any genuine devotion

to Upanishadic

system: Vedanta. Wherever the word `samadhi', `dhyana', `one-

pointedness', ` control of senses and mind', etc. occur in the

Upanishads, the Acharya's bhashyas and other minor texts, that

becomes a source of uncomfortable disposition. Often some other

meaning is sought to be given to these terms, just because the

Acharya happens to use these.

>>

Brilliantly put. I admire your courage in bringing to light this

much needed perspective. Temperamentally one may not be inclined

towards the yoga path - that is a contributing reason for not being

able to undertake yoga sadhana.

// quote

'O Raghava! yoga and Jnana are the two paths leading to the

dissolution of the mind: yoga consists in intercepting

transformations of the mind, and Jnana in the proper viewing of

things. To some yoga is unattainable, while to others is denied the

capacity to judge aright;-hence, the Supreme Lord prescribed these

two paths.

// end quote

Yoga Vasistha points this out. However the validity of one path does

not invalidate the other path.

>>

In a subsequent post a presentation

of the experience of Atman and various other aspects pertaining to

Nirvikalpa Samadhi will be made.

>>

I am looking forward to this. Keep up the good work.

regards

Sundar Rajan

August 28, 2006

Sadananda ji - Humble PraNams

Please do not say sorry to me, you have every right to rebuke me.

I will always take it smilingly.

Just to clarify my point - To efface the ego a lot of sadhana is required.. Sadhana cannot be done properly just by reading scriptures, or discussing on a list.

A personal guru is inevitable. (Even Adya Shankarachrya had to travel in search for a personal guru).

Not everyone is destined to get a guru in present lifetime.

One has to just keep doing good karmas, any sadhana (however improper) and keep purifying ones mind. It may take many lifetimes to get a guru and we should be prepared to wait patiently. Once we are ready we will definately get a Guru. Guru will identify the sadhana best suited and he will guide.

Regarding Nirvikalpa samadhi, many verses from scriptures (e.g - vivekchudamani) can be quoted. I dont have them available now to quote them.

Intellection and tarka do play a decisive role, but they are not the end in itself, I think.

Too much of tarka without practicals is like a beautiful dead lady :-)

Giving the example of Arjun and Sri Krishna - Listening the divine words of Srikrishna and seeing him through 'divya chakshu' did help Arjun to recover himself from depression and fight like a supre-hero, no doubt. But then he behvaed like a normal worldy man later in his life especially after the death of Sri Krishna.

Why was that so?

Arjun had the privilage to hear the divine words directly from the lord himself, above that he got the 'divya chakshu' to see the lord. All this had only a temporary effect on him.

The reason I can understand is that the knowledge he gained by listening to Bhagvad Gita was not enough to efface out his ego (ahamkar).

Please dont think otherwise, I have just clarified my position.

I know you may not agree to some of the above points.

In that case we will agree to dis-agree as ususal :-)

PraNams

Om tat-sat

- Vishal

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada > wrote:

Vishal D <vishaldeshpande4 >

Vinayaka-ji,

It does seem that the study of vedanta is focussed much on shastra and intellect. But the reality is vedanta involves much larger practical side too. It involves tantras (e.g- sri vidya upasana), mantras and yantras. All this culminates in nirvikalpa samadhi.

I dont think just by atma vichara one can attain that ultimate state of enlightenment (or moksha or release from birth-death cycle).

Nirvikalpa samadhi (or Asamprajnyat samadhi) is absolute must.

-----------------

Shree Vishal - PraNAms.

I have no intension of getting into any arguments but would like to clarify from my understanding since your last statement is not what the scripture says. Shankara adhyAsa bhAShya is very clear. If ignorance is the root cause for the problem of samsaara, only knowledge is the antidote. Knowledge does not involve any thing other than knowing who I am. Hence it is not nirvikalpa samAdhi but nirvikalpa jnaanam which involves inquiry. Inquiry involves the mind - it is therefore not the absence of mind but mind that reached an understanding that one is beyond the thoughts in spite of thoughts present. Hence the amRita bindu Upanishad says: 'mana yeva manuShyAnAm kAraNam bandha moxayoH' - mind is the cause as well as means for the bondage and liberation.

Nirvikalpa jnaana is the requirement and that becomes samaadhi - not thoughtless state- it is a state of understanding where one is beyond the thoughts, even while the thoughts are present.

It is like seeing the water in and through the waves and not elimination of the wave to see the water.

Vishal:

Even Nirvikalpa samadhi is not the end, it is just the begenning. There is lot more ahead of it. One can come back from Nirvikalpa samadhi, get siddhis, live in many different planes of existence etc. But all that is not comprehensible for us lesser mortals.

------

KS:

If I may say so - nirvikalpa samaadhi is neither beginning nor end - nor the acquiring the saddhis too. And it is comprehensible either since any comprehension is only conceptualization. It is because of which all comprehensions are possible and also notions that it beyond comprehensions too. It is the ever present existent self that I am. Nothing to do - nothing to gain but ever aware of the existent presence that I am with or without samAdhi or siddhiis.

----------------------

Vishal:

Only way to achieve it to find a competent guru.

KS:

There is nothing to achieve it either - Those who are longing to achieve it will never get it since in the very longing one has missed what one is. Yes Guru is required to understand this correctly not to guide us to samAdhi.

------------------

Vishal:

One has to be just patient and wait for the right time. That waiting period can be many years (often many lifetimes).

KS:

Sorry my friend - The truth of the matter is it is ever present and in the very present tense. Any notions that one has to wait patiently many years are unfortunately a misunderstanding of the very nature of the truth. The problem only is we are not paying attention to the present. We get carried away with the past or future but do not live in the present - the past and future is where Ego has invested and it is not letting us go. Hence all the SAdhana is meant for neutralizing the ego that feeds itself in the notion of past and future. It cannot be done by fighting it since in the very fighting one has given the strength to it. Hence surrenderance is the emphasis. The very notion that I have to wait will only strengthen and confirm the waiting part.

What is required is to live with vigilance in the very present. Ego can be eliminated only by being aware of it - vigilantly. It cannot stand awareness.

----------------------------

Vishal:

But one thing is sure - once one becomes ready (by good karmas through many lifetimes and ) , the guru himself will come to give diksha.

KS:

Yes that part is true. One is blessed with right Guru required for ones evolution when one is ready. Hence the message should be, prepare oneself to be ready right now - the teachings will sink in. Guru will come in many ways if one is attentive.

Vishal:

All these intellection and tarka wont be of much help.

KS:

The above statement is incorrect. It is the intellect that needs to be convinced before any SAdhana takes deep root. Hence Shankara emphasizes Viveka as the very first requirement for sAdhaka. Lord Krishna spend 700 slokas to teach Arjuna until is completely convinced. He could have just given a magic touch and things could have been solved. No it is the inquiry with the intellect by the intellect for the intellect. There is no other way knowledge will take place.

-----------------------

Vishal:

Hope I have not discouraged you, but that is the fact.

KS:

Vishalji - please forgive me if I have come out strong. The teaching of the scripture is beyond the personal opinions. Hence the emphasis on the analysis of the scriptural understanding.

----

Vishal:

All the above views are my personal and I donâ€™t intend to challenge, hurt or disapprove other's views.

KS:

I like your honesty. I agree with you that what I have stated is only my understanding of the scriptures. It is nothing to do with my personal aspect either. I am sure we are blessed with several scholars in this list and they may be able to give us better guidance and correct us if we are wrong. That is the purpose of this list.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

Om Tat Sat

- Vishal

August 28, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

> >

> > advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v@>

> > wrote:

> >

> > > A look into the BrahmaSutra II.i.3 where the Yoga system is

> refuted,

> >

> > Pranams subbu-ji

> >

> > "3. Thereby the Yoga (Smriti) is refuted.

> > > This is how the link that you provided start. Are you reading

in

> it

> > something in it I am not?

> > There is nothing here that talks about nirvikalpa samadhi.

>

> Srigurubhyo NamaH

> Namaste Shyam ji,

>

> > The subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and jnanam are synonyms.

>

> I would request you to wait for a little more time till i post that

> dialogue that i have promised. That will answer several questions

on the subject.

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste Shyam ji and Sunder Rajan ji,

Reverting to the subject of our discussion, here is given the

dialogue between Paramapujya Jagadguru Sri Abhinava Vidya Teertha

Mahaswamiji, the 35th pontiff of the Sringeri Sharada Peetham and His

disciple. This dialogue is especially unique in that the disciple

who poses the questions is Himself an accomplished Yogi and Jnani.

Normally in dialogues with Mahatmas, the questioner may not be an

accomplished person and the replies sought and reported are likely to

have an interference of the thinking and understanding of the

questioner/reporter. This dialogue is free from such an

eventuality. And therefore is immensely authentic and extremely rare

of its kind. This has been excerpted from a book titled 'Exalting

Elucidations' published by Sri Vidyateertha Foundation, Chennai. It

contains several chapters, all in dialogue form, covering a variety

of topics important to religion, shastras and sadhana. It is priced

at an unbelievably subsidised rate of Rs. 50.

With humble pranams at the Holy Feet of The Acharya and the Guru,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

29. NIRVIKALPA-SAMADHI

D: Will one's breathing completely stop when one attains nirvikalpa-

samadhi?

A: No, breathing persists to a small extent.

D: What is the characteristic of nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: The absence of awareness of the distinction of the seer, the seen

and act of seeing is indeed its special characteristic. The Atman is

clearly perceived. Further, supreme bliss is experienced.

D: Will there actually be a positive experience of supreme bliss in

nirvikalpa-samadhi or is there merely the absence of sorrow?

A: There is not only the absence of sorrow but also the attainment of

supreme bliss. Even in jaDa-Samadhi the bliss of the Atman is

experienced but to a much lower degree.

D: I heard that akhandakara- vrtti is present in nirvikalpa-samadhi.

Acharyal said that there is no awareness of the distinctness of the

seer, the seen and act of seeing in nirvikalpa-samadhi. If so, will

the knowledge of akhandakara-vrtti be there in Samadhi?

(Akhandakara-vrtti is a plenary mental activity having the Atman for

the object.)

A: No. When one is in the state of nirvikalpa-samadhi, one will not

be aware of the presence of the akhandakara-vrtti.

D: If so, how can it said that the akhandakara-vritti existed during

nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: One can know that by means of inference and scriptural statements.

If recollection is to arise, there should have been a preceding

experience. When the mind comes down from nirvikalpa-samadhi, there

is a memory to the effect that supreme bliss was experienced earlier.

For the memory to be present there should have been an experience. If

there is to be an experience connected with the mind, there should

have been a thought. That mental vritti is called akhandakara-vrtti.

D: An object is required for a thought to arise in the mind. What is

the object of the akhandakara-vrtti?

A: The Atman.

D: When an object is perceived, the mind assumes its form. Only then

does knowledge of the object arise. In dreams too, the mind assumes

the form of what is seen, with the difference that the senses do not

play a role. So, in both waking and dream states the vritti assumes

the form of an object. Acharyal said that Atman alone is grasped by

akhandakara-vrtti. How can atman become an object of the vrtti as it

does not have a form at all?

A: When it is said that the akhandakara-vrtti's object is the Atman,

what is implied is that the mind is so extremely pure at that time it

just cannot be discerned distinctly from Brahman. The mind is then

like a pure crystal. The effulgent Atman manifests in it clearly.

Just as a crystal, when placed in the vicinity of a red flower

appears red, so also is the nature of the Atman assumed by the mind.

This akhandakara-vrtti is the one that destroys ignorance.

D: Will a single experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi be sufficient to

attain bharma-jnana?

A: Normally, it is not sufficient. During nirvikalpa-samadhi the

Atman is experienced. After emergence from that state, the experience

gradually begins to fade. However, just after coming down from it,

everything is perceived as Atman. Nothing distinct from the Atman is

discerned. To cite an example, one feels, "I am a big ocean. It is in

me that the bubbles constituted by the world are produced." The

experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi must be had to be understood. Verbal

descriptions are woefully inadequate. If one gets the experience of

nirvikalpa-samadhi repeatedly, one's Jnana becomes stable. After the

realization becomes stable, the mind is destroyed and one becomes a

jivanmukta.

D: Why should one descend from nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: If prarabdha is not exhausted one is obliged to emerge even from

nirvikalpa-samadhi. We can find different illustrations for this in

the Yoga-vaisitha.

D: Can one attain jnana without experiencing nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: Jnana is nothing but the knowledge of one's True nature.

Technically, it can be obtained even through just Vichara (enquiry).

Nirvikalpa-samadhi is a wonderful means but it is improper to say

that it is the only means.

D: During nirvikalpa-samadhi will there be an awareness of oneself

and the surroundings?

A: No.

D: Can one be awakened from nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: In most cases, it can be done with some difficulty. Sometimes; it

becomes almost impossible to wake one up. All this depends on the

depth of the Samadhi.

D: Can one predetermine the duration of one's stay in nirvikalpa-

samadhi?

A: Yes, if there is sufficient practice. If a suitable resolve is

made, before going into Samadhi, one can descend from the exalted

condition at the predetermined time. For example, if one thinks, "I

will do puja in an hour", and goes into Samadhi, then one can come

down from Samadhi after being in that state for exactly one hour.

D: Will Acharyal kindly explain the experiences that precede the

onset of nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: It is impossible to give a precise description and the steps

preceding nirvikalpa-samadhi are not unique. However, I will give a

rough account of what can happen. First, awareness of the body and

the surroundings gradually vanishes. Then, only the thoughts of the

mind are perceived. As meditation proceeds further, mental activity

subsides. One feels, "I have become infinite like the sky." Then

comes a great blissful experience. Ater this, there is a sudden

change and awareness of the differentiation of the seer, the seen and

the act of seeing ceases. That experience is completely beyond words.

D: What is the procedure to be adopted to attain nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: Usually, nirvikalpa-samadhi can be attained if one repeatedly gets

savikalpa-samadhi.

D: Will the awareness of the distinction of the seer, the seen and

the act of seeing cease in savikalpa- Samadhi also?

A: No. It ceases only in nirvikalpa-samadhi. The term savikalpa-

samadhi itself shows that this is a Samadhi with the distinction of

the seer, seen and seeing present.

D: Will the joy got in savikalpa-samadhi be the same as that in

nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: No. the joy of nirvikalpa-samadhi is unparalleled. But it can be

said that the happiness obtained in saviklpa-samadhi is very great

when compared to the joy derived from sense-objects.

D: Can it be said that liberation will definitely be had by one who

arranges for his death in nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: It cannot be so. Moksha can be attained when jnana becomes

thoroughly unobstructed and fructifies. If prarbdha remains and one

arranges to have onself killed in Samadhi, rebirth can occur.

D: Can it be said that if one dies while in nirvikalpa-samadhi, one

can attain jnana easily in one's next birth?

A: Yes. It may be said thus.

D: Is there a possibility for one to fall from spiritual life even

after attaining nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: Yes, there is the possibility for a fall, until complete, firm

realization of the Truth arises. I have come across persons who have

slipped after nirvikalpa-samadhi.

D: Can nirvikalpa-samadhi be obtained by means of drugs, self-

hypnosis, etc.?

A: No.

D: Is it possible to feel thirst, hunger etc., immediately after the

mind comes down from prolonged nirvikalpa-samadhi?

A: These are normally not felt. Rarely, a little body ache may be

felt because of the body having remained erect and motionless for

long.

D: Will Acharyal say something about nirvikalpa-samadhi from personal

experience?

A: (Smiling) Do you think that all the while I was merely repeating

like a parrot what is contained in the sastra-s?

Incidents from Acharyal's Life

Acharyal describes the event that marked his attainment of

nirvikalpa-samadhi for the first time:(This event is recorded as the

15th of December 1935, Pournami, Tuesday. Acharyal, by then a

Sannyasi for four years, was just 18 years of age on this day.)

Before going for meditation, I decided, "I should, during My

meditation this evening, prevent Myself from being overwhelmed by

this bliss of Savikalpa-samadhi. Then, by impressing upon Myself

that I am bliss itself and not one who enjoys it, I should focus My

mind more thoroughly on the Atman. Once My mind were to become fully

established on the Atman and devoid of every transformation of a form

other than that of the Atman, how can any distinction between bliss

and the one experiencing bliss or, for that matter, any other subject-

object distinction and the sense of individuality show up at all? By

establishing the mind on the Atman and remaining without any thought,

I would be acting in accordance with the instruction, "One should

gradually withdraw with the intellect endued with firmness; making

the mind established in the Atman, one should not think of anything".

(Bhagavadgita: VI.25)

I reached My place of meditation on the hill around one and a

half hours before sunset. Sitting in the Siddhasana, I performed two

cycles of pranayama together with the jalandhara, uddiyana and mula

bandha-s to promote mental tranquility. Then, as usual, I directed

My gaze towards the centre of My brows and chanted the pranava. That

day, I beheld an unbounded expanse of Blue, resembling the sky.

The notion, "I am the non-dual Brahman apart from which

nothing whatsoever exists" that was prominent and naturally

persistent since the previous evening, had been intensified by My

savikalpa-samadhi-s of the morning and by My reading and reflection

of the afternoon. So, I did not have to cultivate it. I had barely

seen the soothing expanse of blue when it vanished. I felt Myself

expanding and becoming like space. The sense of `I' nearly vanished

and My mind entered savikalpa-samadhi.

The bliss was very great. However, with effort, I restrained Myself

from being overwhelmed by it and thought, `I am not the one

experiencing bliss but am bliss itself.' In a trice, a sharp change

occurred. Awareness of the distinction of the concentrator,

concentration and the object of concentration completely disappeared.

No more was there any sense of individuality or of space, time and

objects. Only Brahman, of the nature of absolute existence, pure

consciousness and ultimate bliss, shone bereft of the superimposition

of even a trace of duality.

After about two hours, the mind descended to the level of

savikalpa-samadhi, and mild awareness of the distinction of the

concentrator, concentration and the object of concentration

reappeared. Though the bliss of savikalpa-samadhi was by far grater

than the joy of any worldly enjoyment, it was nothing compared to the

absolute, non-dual bliss of nirvikalpa-samadhi. Gradually, I became

lightly aware of the body and of the build up of breathing that must

have almost totally stopped earlier.

Experiences of devotees

Acharyal could fathom the innermost recesses of his

disciples' hearts and fulfil whatever aspirations the devotees had.

For example, years ago, I had a stong desire to behold Acharyal in

nirvikalpa-samadhi. I did not express my feelings to him but what

can be hidden from the omniscient One? One day, He asked me to

accompany Him to the Kalabhairava temple and there, He sat down for

meditation. He asked me to sit close to Him and then remarked, "We

will meditate". I saw His eyes close partially. Slowly, the heaving

of His chest became slower and slower and soon, no trace of breathing

was discoverable by me, though I was very close to him. He seemed to

radiate peace. Suddenly, I felt a force dragging me into meditation.

I too closed my eyes and my mind soared to the heights of

concentration. I thought that a moment had elapsed before I was able

to regain awareness of the body. I opened my eyes and observed

Acharyal. Slowly, His breathing commenced and in a few moments He

opened His eyes. Turning to the Kalabhairava idol, He called out the

Lord's name and after prostrating, came out of the temple. Actually,

over half-an-hour had elapsed. On coming out of the temple, he

said, "Nirvikalpa-samadhi is very nice. Is it not?" thus, He had

fulfilled my wish to behold him in that sublime state even prior to

my expressing the desire. Of course, since then, I have been

privileged to see Him on numerous occasions in that acme of

medication, nirvikalpa-samadhi and to even photograph Him in Samadhi.

{Sri.R.M.Umesh}.

August 28, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

I have been

> privileged to see Him on numerous occasions in that acme of

> medication, nirvikalpa-samadhi and to even photograph Him in Samadhi.

Namaste,

A typographical error went unnoticed by me. The word 'medication' is

to be read as 'meditation'. The error is regretted.

Subbu

Om Tat Sat

August 28, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

> advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

> <subrahmanian_v@> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

> <subrahmanian_v@>

> > > wrote:

> > >

> > > > A look into the BrahmaSutra II.i.3 where the Yoga system is

> > refuted,

> > >

> > > Pranams subbu-ji

> > >

> > > "3. Thereby the Yoga (Smriti) is refuted.

> > > > This is how the link that you provided start. Are you

reading

> in

> > it

> > > something in it I am not?

> > > There is nothing here that talks about nirvikalpa samadhi.

> >

> > Srigurubhyo NamaH

> > Namaste Shyam ji,

> >

> > > The subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and jnanam are synonyms.

> >

> > I would request you to wait for a little more time till i post

that

> > dialogue that i have promised. That will answer several

questions

> on the subject.

>

> Srigurubhyo NamaH

> Namaste Shyam ji and Sunder Rajan ji,

>

> Reverting to the subject of our discussion, here is given the

> dialogue between Paramapujya Jagadguru Sri Abhinava Vidya Teertha

> Mahaswamiji, the 35th pontiff of the Sringeri Sharada Peetham and

His

> disciple. This dialogue is especially unique in that the disciple

> who poses the questions is Himself an accomplished Yogi and

Jnani.

> Normally in dialogues with Mahatmas, the questioner may not be an

> accomplished person and the replies sought and reported are likely

to

> have an interference of the thinking and understanding of the

> questioner/reporter. This dialogue is free from such an

> eventuality. And therefore is immensely authentic and extremely

rare

> of its kind. This has been excerpted from a book titled 'Exalting

> Elucidations' published by Sri Vidyateertha Foundation, Chennai.

It

> contains several chapters, all in dialogue form, covering a

variety

> of topics important to religion, shastras and sadhana. It is

priced

> at an unbelievably subsidised rate of Rs. 50.

>

> With humble pranams at the Holy Feet of The Acharya and the Guru,

> subbu

> Om Tat Sat

>

> 29. NIRVIKALPA-SAMADHI

>

> D: Will one's breathing completely stop when one attains

nirvikalpa-

> samadhi?

>

> A: No, breathing persists to a small extent.

>

> D: What is the characteristic of nirvikalpa-samadhi?

>

> A: The absence of awareness of the distinction of the seer, the

seen

> and act of seeing is indeed its special characteristic. The Atman

is

> clearly perceived. Further, supreme bliss is experienced.

Dear Subbuji,

The experiences described by the acharya alomost tallies with the

discription given by Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananada and his

direct disciples. It is rightly said single experience of nirvikalpa

samadhi is not sufficient to establish in brahmajnana. Even Swami

Brahmananda a principal disciple of Sri Ramakrishna has also said

the same.

Being from place just 200 kms from Sringeri I have heard the

greatness of earlier acharyas who spoke with the authority of the

experience and not scholarship alone. They were great jnanis and

yogis too.

Its a nice coincidence that the thread is almost coming to

conclusion by the comment of the Sringeri Jagadguru, the abbot of

the first math established by the bhagavadpada.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

August 28, 2006

Dear Subbu-ji,

Pranams.

Thank you for sharing that wondrous account.

My sashtang pranams to Paramapujya Jagadguru Sri

Abhinava Vidya Teertha Mahaswamiji - what benevolence

on His part to articulate for us ajnanis his profound

experiences!!

The following clearly emerge from the dialogue coming

from His Holiness.

1. Nirvikalpa samadhi is not equated with jnanam

2. Nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporally bound state into

which one enters and which one comes out of. It is

described as supremely blissful no doubt, but a ajnani

who enters it comes out a ajnani.

3. The Bliss one experiences in nirvikalpa samadhi

while Supreme is still limited - once that experience

is over the bliss is gone as well.

4. Jnanam is ever being established in the firm

knowledge "aham brahmasmi". It is not to be confused

with the bliss of a samadhi experience.

5. Attainment of nirvikalpa samadhi does not prevent

rebirths or falling in spiritual progress. (IN fact in

my humble opinion there may be a risk of getting

attached to that bliss, given how profound it is, and

lose sight of the goal or worse, confuse that with the

goal itself.)

6. When a jnani like Swami Chinmayananda for example

is giving a Gita talk he is not in nirvikalps samadhi,

but he is ever established in jnanam. The knowledge

that he is the whole is never absent, even though the

nirvikalpa samadhi "bliss" may or may not be present.

A sentence Sadanandaji used in his previous post to

describe a jnanis attitude I found both profound and

beautiful - "Thus I am aware of the apparent duality

in the mind (the subject-object duel existence) but I

am undifferentiable existence that supports the

apparent"

Any thirst for a blissful experience is a thirst for

an experience alone - just because it happens to be

for something Divine or Exalted does not change that -

atmavichara is not thirsting for any experience - it

is an intense longing for realizing my true nature -

once and for all, and ending my false sense of

separation from the whole.

A profound experience in bhakti may perhaps give you

less bliss than a savikalpa samadhi which in turn

gives you less bliss than nirvikalpa samadhi - anytime

there is gradation, where is the Absolute?

His Holiness Swami Tapovan-ji, Swami Chinmayananda-jis

Guru-Divine, and one of the foremost jnanis of our

time has described so many situations of enduring

hardships in his books Ishwara Darshan and Kailash

Yatra (- 2 books I would highly recommend for all

vedantins where we have a accomplished jnani by virtue

of extraordinary mercy give us a detailed account of

his travels and life experiences). Let us say for

example that while walking in the Himalayas a thorn

pierces the foot of His Holiness. Does he have an

experience of pain? Of course he does. His experience

of pain at that moment is nothing related to an

experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. But that

experiential pain does not for a moment, for a

nanosecond, take away from the jnani his fullness, his

sense of being complete, his firm knowledge that He is

everything and the experiencer of the pain is his body

and mind alone, which He himself supports and

sustains. He can simply allow that painful experience

to come, and then to go, without it disturbing his

equipoise or equanimity.

The reason I, a humble seeker, am committing the

aparadham of belabouring this point is not to

establish or prove a position - it is simply to

clarify the goal and not confuse the goal with the

means or some other destination points which may or

may not come about along the way - this in my humble

opinion, is very important for a seeker to understand

very well.

Lord Krishna in the Gita in describing a jnani - he

uses ther term gunateetah in Ch 14 has this to say

prakasam ca pravrttim ca

moham eva ca pandava

na dvesti sampravrttani

na nivrttani kanksati

udasina-vad asino

gunair yo na vicalyate

guna vartanta ity evam

yo 'vatisthati nengate

sama-duhkha-sukhah sva-sthah

sama-lostasma-kancanah

tulya-priyapriyo dhiras

tulya-nindatma-samstutih

manapamanayos tulyas

tulyo mitrari-paksayoh

sarvarambha-parityagi

gunatitah sa ucyate

Let us examine the words - who regards alike "pleasure

and pain" - a sweet dish will give him a sukha - good

experience and a thorn in his foot will give him dukha

- a bad experience - but He realizes these are at the

level of the body, not for the Self, the atman, in

which he is firmly and permanently established.

So the "bliss" of a jnani is not to be mistaken for an

experiential bliss in my humble opinion - it is an

abiding sense of completeness. This cognition of ones

own completeness, of being desireless, of having put

to death the wanting ego-sense, is far greater than

all the experential blisses put together.

Once again my pranams to you for blessing us with the

pleasure of reading this intimate dialogue, and for

the descriptions of your wonderful interactions with

your Guru Divine.

Shri Gurubhyo namah

Shyam

--- subrahmanian_v <subrahmanian_v > wrote:

> advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

> <subrahmanian_v wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > advaitin,

> "subrahmanian_v"

> <subrahmanian_v@>

> > > wrote:

> > Srigurubhyo NamaH

> > Namaste Shyam ji,

> >

> > > The subject is if nirvikalpa samadhi and jnanam

> are synonyms.

> >

> > I would request you to wait for a little more time

> till i post that

> > dialogue that i have promised. That will answer

> several questions

> on the subject.

>

> Srigurubhyo NamaH

> Namaste Shyam ji and Sunder Rajan ji,

>

> Reverting to the subject of our discussion, here is

> given the

> dialogue between Paramapujya Jagadguru Sri Abhinava

> Vidya Teertha

> Mahaswamiji, the 35th pontiff of the Sringeri

> Sharada Peetham and His

> disciple. This dialogue is especially unique in

> that the disciple

> who poses the questions is Himself an accomplished

> Yogi and Jnani.

> D: Will a single experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi be

> sufficient to

> attain bharma-jnana?

>

> A: Normally, it is not sufficient. During

> nirvikalpa-samadhi the

> Atman is experienced. After emergence from that

August 29, 2006

advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md wrote:

>

> Dear Subbu-ji,

>

> Pranams.

> Thank you for sharing that wondrous account.

> My sashtang pranams to Paramapujya Jagadguru Sri

> Abhinava Vidya Teertha Mahaswamiji - what benevolence

> on His part to articulate for us ajnanis his profound

> experiences!!

>

> The following clearly emerge from the dialogue coming

> from His Holiness.

>

> 1. Nirvikalpa samadhi is not equated with jnanam

>

> 2. Nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporally bound state into

> which one enters and which one comes out of. It is

> described as supremely blissful no doubt, but a ajnani

> who enters it comes out a ajnani.

Dear Sir,

It is really sad thing and due to your intellectual arrogance you

are again and again making such statements. Has not subbuji showed

sufficient reasons the benifit given by this state? Sri Ramana

Maharashi/Sri Ramakrishna has definetly said that nirvikalpa state

is certainly inferior to the state of Sahaja samadhi where the mind

is destroyed totally and one is firmly established in brahman always

which is true state of a jnani not otherwise. Jnanam is not the book

knowledge which can be got by reading scriptures say for 3-5 years.

Jnani is a siddha a brahmajnani who knows beyond doubt that

everything is brahman.

State of mind of a person emrging from nirvikapla samdhi is far far

better than the normal state of mind of mediocore sadhakas like us.

Born siddhas like Ramana Maharshi, Swami Vivekananda had to struggle

so much for realising the truth/coming to truth face to face and

then what to say about us?

Even the acharya has said that nirvikalpa samadhi is not sine qua

non for realisation but still why you are decrying such an exalted

state i do not understand.

Fanaticism without realisation will only degenerate the mind thats

all.

Swami Vivekananda has rightly said

Furthermore, this is a most vital point to understand, that

inspiration is as much in every man's nature as it was in that of

the ancient prophets. These prophets were not unique; they were men

as you or I. They were great Yogis. They had gained this

superconsciousness, and you and I can get the same. They were not

peculiar people. The very fact that one man ever reached that state,

proves that it is possible for every man to do so. Not only is it

possible, but every man must, eventually, get to that state, and

that is religion. Experience is the only teacher we have. We may

talk and reason all our lives, but we shall not understand a word of

truth, until we experience it ourselves. You cannot hope to make a

man a surgeon by simply giving him a few books. You cannot satisfy

my curiosity to see a country by showing me a map; I must have

actual experience. Maps can only create curiosity in us to get more

perfect knowledge. Beyond that, they have no value whatever.

Clinging to books only degenerates the human mind. Was there ever a

more horrible blasphemy than the statement that all the knowledge of

God is confined to this or that book? How dare men call God

infinite, and yet try to compress Him within the covers of a little

book! Millions of people have been killed because they did not

believe what the books said, because they would not see all the

knowledge of God within the covers of a book. Of course this killing

and murdering has gone by, but the world is still tremendously bound

up in a belief in books.

I agree with you so far that faith is a wonderful insight and that

it alone can save; but there is the danger in it of breeding

fanaticism and barring further progress.

Jnana is all right; but there is the danger of its becoming

dry intellectualism.

------------

I am really sorry to say about this.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

August 29, 2006

Dear Sir,

It is really sad thing and due to your intellectual arrogance you

are again and again making such statements. Has not subbuji showed

sufficient reasons the benifit given by this state?

praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Kindly pardon me for my intervention...In my humble opinion, what Sri shyam

prabhuji observed from Sri Subbu prabhuji's posting is absolutely

right....Kindly let us know where he has shown *intellectual arrogance*

while describing the role of *nirvikalpa samAdhi* in obtaining Atma

jnAna....whatever he said in his mail is just a summary of what HH Sri

Abhinava VidhyatIrtha had said to his desciple. In short, Atma jnAna as

described by shankara is not the knowledge of *absence* of any vyavahAra &

sitting in an exalted state hours together...Atma jnAna is eternal &

everlasting for a jnAni & noway it is a *time bound* temporary experience

like samAdhi. So, let us not mix patanjala yOga's samAdhi experience with

that of shruti pratipAdita brahma jnAna.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

PS: I had written my thoughts about the role of Nirvikalpa samAdhi in

advaita vEdAnta sometime back (last year !!?? not sure) , I am searching

for the relevant mails in my mail box but could not find it...Since I dont

have internet access in PC, I request the members to search for the same in

the archieves.

August 29, 2006

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> Dear Sir,

>

> It is really sad thing and due to your intellectual arrogance you

> are again and again making such statements. Has not subbuji showed

> sufficient reasons the benifit given by this state?

>

> praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> Kindly pardon me for my intervention...In my humble opinion, what

Sri shyam

> prabhuji observed from Sri Subbu prabhuji's posting is absolutely

> right....Kindly let us know where he has shown *intellectual

arrogance*

> while describing the role of *nirvikalpa samAdhi* in obtaining Atma

> jnAna....whatever he said in his mail is just a summary of what HH

Sri

> Abhinava VidhyatIrtha had said to his desciple.

Dear Bhaskarji,

Pranams,

Acharya has said,

D: Will a single experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi be sufficient to

attain bharma-jnana?

A: Normally, it is not sufficient. During nirvikalpa-samadhi the

Atman is experienced. After emergence from that state, the experience

gradually begins to fade. However, just after coming down from it,

everything is perceived as Atman. Nothing distinct from the Atman is

discerned. To cite an example, one feels, "I am a big ocean. It is in

me that the bubbles constituted by the world are produced." The

experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi must be had to be understood. Verbal

descriptions are woefully inadequate.

**If one gets the experience of

nirvikalpa-samadhi repeatedly, one's Jnana becomes stable. After the

realization becomes stable, the mind is destroyed and one becomes a

jivanmukta.**

Shyamji writes:

2. Nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporally bound state into

which one enters and which one comes out of. It is

described as supremely blissful no doubt, but a ajnani

who enters it comes out a ajnani.

---------------

Is it not absurd to the core.Is he not contradicting the mahatma who

is speaking out of his EXPERIENCE? Does Shyamji means to say that

acharya states that repeated experiecne of ignorence leads to

stabalising the jnana and one becomes established in jnana?

Acharya has clearly said that single experience of samadhi is not

sufficient because of storng influence of samskaras. If by repeated

experience of nirvikalpa samadhi samskaras are totally burnt does it

not lead to establishment of atman whether he is in nirvikalpa of

working?

Discussions are welcome. Fanaticism can come where there is an

attempt to hide the truth for one reason for the other.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

August 29, 2006

praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

I hope Sri Shyam prabhuji would clear his stand about your observation. In

the meanwhile kindly permit me to share my part of thoughts :

vinayaka prabhuji:

**If one gets the experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi repeatedly, one's Jnana

becomes stable. After the

realization becomes stable, the mind is destroyed and one becomes a

jivanmukta.**

Acharya has clearly said that single experience of samadhi is not

sufficient because of storng influence of samskaras. If by repeated

experience of nirvikalpa samadhi samskaras are totally burnt does it

not lead to establishment of atman whether he is in nirvikalpa of working?

bhaskar :

swAmy vidyAraNya says in his famous work jIvanmuktiviveka that

brahmajnAna and jIvanmukti are not synonymous terms, since the latter

requires vAsanAkshaya whereas the former does not!! Anyway that is a

different issue altogether & let us not discuss it right now.

Now, coming back to Atma jnAna & its maintenance, I dont think it is in

line with shankara siddhAnta...this repeated sustenance of Atma jnAna is

called prasaNkhyAna vAda & does not hold water in case of brahma jnAni.

Because shruti says *bhidyatE hrudaya graNthiM chidyaNte

sarvasaMshayaH*..after the dawn of knowledge, the jnAni does not have to *

sustain* this Atma jnAna through repeated experiences of some *supernatural

state* since he is secondless brahman himself & there is not even an iota

of doubt in this jnAna...For that matter where is the kartru (doer) bhAva

in jnAni who has the willingness to maintain that jnAna?? In kAtaka shruti

it is mentioned that * yadA sarvE pramuchyantE kAmA yEsyahyadi shritA:!

atha marthyOmrutO bhavatyatra brahmasamaSNutE!! When you get the ultimate

liberation from avidyA kAma you will realise brahman here itself. It does

not say, you will attain brahman *after the supernatural experience* in

samAdhi, tattvamasi has been asserted with regard to our natural state not

for some other state which we gained through purusha tantra is it not

prabhuji?? *brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati* declares muNdaka shruti but it

does not anyway mean that you will become brahman gradually by repeated

experience of some supernatural state like nirvikalpa samAdhi!!

First of all why the brahma jnAni need a stabilization of his jnAna when he

is brahman itself?? Is there any distinction between jnAtru, jnEya & jnAna

in a brahma jnAni/brahma?? Infact, bhagavadpAda is the first to argue that

nothing needs to be done once jnAna has fully dawned. Indeed, he also says

that after mukti, there is no more individual, so there can be nobody who

can stabilize anything. After the dawn of kEvala jnAna a jnAni's doership

/enjoyership (katrutva/bhOktrutva) will be completely eradicated since this

state is sarva pramAtru, pramANAtIta vyavahAra (or we can say sublated

duality (bhAdita vyavahAra). This maintenance work will be taken care by

itself *automatically* without any sustained effort (injuction/vidhi) from

jnAni.

Here point to be noted is AtmajnAna is not the result of sitting inert,

stilling mind (through deliberate suppression / oppression of thought

flow..chitta vrutti nirOdha) & experiencing some *lokAtIta* bliss, it is

his own swarUpa realised by apt student through mere shravaNa of shruti

vAkyA & in other cases subsequent process of manana & nidhidhyAsana...but

this nidhidhyAsana can noway be compared with that of patanjali's ashtAnga

yOga's 7th limb *dhyAna* & 8th limb samAdhi...but it is adhyAtma yOga/jnAna

born out of *shAstra vichAra* nirNaya which has been beautifully explained

in kathOpanishat.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

August 29, 2006

Namaste Sri Shyam-ji,

> Nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporally bound state into

> which one enters and which one comes out of. It is

> described as supremely blissful no doubt, but a ajnani

> who enters it comes out a ajnani.

>

(1) Shravana, Manana, Nidhidhyasana, Vichara and in fact all

Sadhanas are in the realm of time and hence temporary AND a person

who enters them as a ajnani comes out as a ajnani. Except for the

final awakening and this final awakening can be the result of N.S

also. This being the case why single out and downplay N.S?

(2) Sadanandji brought out a very good point recently:

>> It is the intellect that needs to be

>> convinced before any SAdhana takes deep root.

Keep this in mind and let us objectively look at Sri Sankara's

description of the Highest Samadhi from the Katha

Upanishad mantra 'yadaa paJNchaavatishhThante GYaanaani manasaa saha'

// quote

He indeed (ethasyam)

(hyaVasthayamÂ) in this (Avastha) state

(Atma) the Atman

(Svarupa prathistayam) established in its own nature

(Avidyaropavarjita) bereft of the superimposition of Avidya

// end quote

Here is a simple question.

After being 'established in his own nature bereft of the

superimposition of Avidya' (Sankara's own words)

does a Sadhaka's intellect have

(A) less conviction

(B) no change in his conviction

Should be obvious to anyone that N.S. is a supreme help in the

Nidhidhyasana process.

regards

Sundar Rajan

August 29, 2006

advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md wrote:

>

> Dear Subbu-ji,

>

> Pranams.

> > The following clearly emerge from the dialogue coming

> from His Holiness.

>

> 1. Nirvikalpa samadhi is not equated with jnanam

>

> 2. Nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporally bound state into

> which one enters and which one comes out of. It is

> described as supremely blissful no doubt, but a ajnani

> who enters it comes out a ajnani.

>

> 3. The Bliss one experiences in nirvikalpa samadhi

> while Supreme is still limited - once that experience

> is over the bliss is gone as well.

>

> 4. Jnanam is ever being established in the firm

> knowledge "aham brahmasmi". It is not to be confused

> with the bliss of a samadhi experience.

>

> 5. Attainment of nirvikalpa samadhi does not prevent

> rebirths or falling in spiritual progress. (IN fact in

> my humble opinion there may be a risk of getting

> attached to that bliss, given how profound it is, and

> lose sight of the goal or worse, confuse that with the

> goal itself.)

Namaste Shyam ji,

Thanks for your response. The main purpose of my posting that

Dialogue is to clear the misconceptions that were vociferously

articulated in this discussion:

(a)Atma Jnanam does not require a separate, specific experience.

(b)Nirvikalpa Samadhi is experienced in the Anandamaya kosha.

(d)This is no different from deep sleep

The above dialogue addresses all these abundantly.

Again, if what you have observed is the conclusion you have arrived

at after perusing the Dialogue, let me beg your permission to convey

my point through a joke that Pujya Swami Paramarthananda Saraswati

said in one of his classes: Someone said after attending elaborate

classes on the Gita that he had understood the gist of the entire

Gita teaching. When asked to specify, he said: The Gita teaching is

this: Paanchajanyam Hrishikesho devadattam DhananjayaH..

Enough of the joke. The observation of yours bears a very sad

commentary to the capability of Bhagavan Sri Krishna as the Adhyaatma

Guru. Let me quote from the Gita Chapter 2, verse 53:

The second line of the verse is:

samaadhau achalaa buddhiH tadA yogam avApsyasi

The bhashya in part is: when your buddhi......shall stand firm,

without distraction and doubt, in the Self (Samadhi), then you will

attain Yoga, samadhi, ie., the knowledge which arises from

discrimination.

The Acharya's words are: ...nischalaa vikshepachalana-varjitaa satii

samaadhau = smaadhiiyate chittam asminniti samaaadhiH Atma

tasminnaatmani ityetat. (Oh! what a wonderful Vedantic definition of

Samadhi: The resolving of the unidstracted mind in Atma is samadhi)

achalaa tatraapi vikalpavarjitaa ityetat. (There also, the mind is

free from vikalpa. One commentator states this to be nirvikalpa.

tadaa tasmin kaale yogam = vivekaprajnaam samaadhim praapsyasi.

Madhusudani writes: then at that time one attains the yoga which is

characterised by jiva-paramaatma aikyam born of the mahavakya tat

tvam asi through the akhanda saakshaatkaara.

The next verse, a question by Arjuna stems from the earlier verse: He

asks : sthitaprajnasya kaa bhaashaa, samaadhisthasya keshava. The

Acharya writes: samaadhau sthitasya. The one who is established in

Atman.

In the sixth chapter verse 19,20 the concentrated state of mind of

the aspirant is spoken of by Bhagavan. The Acharya used the words

samadhi in these verses, as we saw earlier. The Acharya introduces

the verse 20 thus: Evam yogaabhyaasa-balaat-ekaagrii-

bhuutam..chittam..Thus, in the manner of practices detailed in the

several earlier verses, the mind becomes one-pointed. The analogy of

a lamp was given in 19. When due to the practice, the mind attains

concentration, then the aspirant gets the vision of the Atma. The

acharya says: by the mind that has been purified by samadhi. The

gita says: tushyati. He sees the atman and derives happiness. In

the next verse: sukham aatyantikam vetti. He experiences supreme

bliss.

Now the question is: If samadhi is a 'loop' into which one goes as an

ajnaani and emerges out as an ajnaani, will the Lord teach this

purposeless practice to an aspirant? The Lord clearly says that by

this practice one attains the direct realization of the Atman. And,

the Bliss that he attains is also not something trivial as you have

made it out to be. It is not some cheap thing longed for by worldly

ignorant people. It is the Supreme Parama Purushartha Ananda that

the Lord is promising through this verse.

You have said:

> Any thirst for a blissful experience is a thirst for

> an experience alone - just because it happens to be

> for something Divine or Exalted does not change that -

> atmavichara is not thirsting for any experience - it

> is an intense longing for realizing my true nature -

> once and for all, and ending my false sense of

> separation from the whole.

>

> A profound experience in bhakti may perhaps give you

> less bliss than a savikalpa samadhi which in turn

> gives you less bliss than nirvikalpa samadhi - anytime

> there is gradation, where is the Absolute?

Reply:

The ultimate purpose of any sadhana is, as the shastra says:

niratishaya-ananda-prapti. or attainment of unsurpassed, unaalloyed

bliss. This is the definition of Moksha. It is because all other

joys available through the other three purusharthas are mixed with

sorrow. This moksha ananda is what is longed by everyone. This is

what the Upanishad enables one to attain. The second chapter of the

Taittiriya is called Anandavalli. There a calculus of ananda

starting from the sensory to the special-sensory is mentioned. The

Ananda of the Parabrahman is beyond this and is infinite. The

Taittiriya says: Anandam Brahmano vidwan, na bibheti kutaschaneti.

He who contacts this Ananda fears from nothing. It is this Ananda

that the Lord says will be attained by the Yogi through Atma Jnana.

The Dialogue that we read is a real life example of the teaching of

the Gita.

>

> So the "bliss" of a jnani is not to be mistaken for an

> experiential bliss in my humble opinion - it is an

> abiding sense of completeness. This cognition of ones

> own completeness, of being desireless, of having put

> to death the wanting ego-sense, is far greater than

> all the experential blisses put together.

Reply:

I remember a very beautiful observation made by Swami Paramarthananda

ji in his Kathopanishad classes: The Guru Yamadharmaraja did not want

to give the Atma jnanam teaching to Nachiketas straightaway. He

wanted to test the student's capacity to receive it. This is

important because, even if the teaching is not understood, there is

not much loss. But if the teaching is misunderstood and propagated

by that person in society, the pure teaching will be subdued and only

the wrong teaching will go round as the teaching. This is a

disastrous situation. So, Yamadharmaraja wanted to avoid this.

(unquote)

In my humble opinion, ironically, this is what exactly has happened.

Over several decades teachings like: An experience is not required

for Atma jnanam, Nirvikalpa samadhi is not required for Atma jnanam,

and several other things connected to this have gone round as

Vedanta. To a person who has been exposed to the traditional

teaching of the Upanishads with Acharya's bhashyam, this kind of

teaching is immediately discernible as something basically

incorrect. So, to right something that has been propagated over

several decades, on a mass basis, through the medium of some

exchanges like what we are having, is an impossible task. I conclude

this discussion, at least from my side, by recounting a remark made

by a friend. He is a doctorate and a Professor in an Engineering

College. He has over two decades of exposure to Vedanta as it is

traditionally taught. He remarked: One difficulty with egroup

discussions is that you do not know the background of the person to

whom you are talking. You do not know what to say, how much to say

and how to say. Often such discussions end up with no real learning

coming through.

> Once again my pranams to you for blessing us with the

> pleasure of reading this intimate dialogue, and for

> the descriptions of your wonderful interactions with

> your Guru Divine.

>

> Shri Gurubhyo namah

> Shyam

>

Shyam ji, kindly note that the post concerning the dialogue and

experiences do not have me in them. The disciple is not me there. I

have just reported these to clarify certain points.

Humble pranams and Thanks for engaging in this discussion,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

August 29, 2006

> Here point to be noted is AtmajnAna is not the result of sitting

inert,

> stilling mind (through deliberate suppression / oppression of

thought

> flow..chitta vrutti nirOdha) & experiencing some *lokAtIta* bliss,

it is

> his own swarUpa realised by apt student through mere shravaNa of

shruti

> vAkyA & in other cases subsequent process of manana &

nidhidhyAsana...but

> this nidhidhyAsana can noway be compared with that of patanjali's

ashtAnga

> yOga's 7th limb *dhyAna* & 8th limb samAdhi...but it is adhyAtma

yOga/jnAna

> born out of *shAstra vichAra* nirNaya which has been beautifully

explained

> in kathOpanishat.

Dear Bhaskarji,

Namaskaragalu,

During nirvikalpa-samadhi the

Atman is experienced.

-------------------

Pls note that here the acharya is saying that he perceived the

ataman not postulated. Nothing distinct from the Atman is

discerned.

------------------------------

After emergence from that state, the experience

gradually begins to fade. ***However, just after coming down from it,

everything is perceived as Atman. Nothing distinct from the Atman is

discerned. To cite an example, one feels, "I am a big ocean. It is in

me that the bubbles constituted by the world are produced."***** The

experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi must be had to be understood. Verbal

descriptions are woefully inadequate. If one gets the experience of

nirvikalpa-samadhi repeatedly, one's Jnana becomes stable. After the

realization becomes stable, the mind is destroyed and one becomes a

jivanmukta.

--------------------------

This paragraph shows that there is an experience of oneness. Can u

feel that oneness now? This was a matter of experience for the

acharya. It is said that by repeated process of N.S. or proper

nidhidhyasanam the mind will become so pure that it becomes alomost

identical with the self. Susequently when one continues say either

in N.S. or in nidhidhyasanam it is destroyed completely. Acharya

himself says that the experience starts FADING. Which all the sages

who attained nirvikalpa state opined. By repeated practice mind is

made so pure and ultimately destoryed and the state of sahaja is

obtained. Sri Ramakrishna has said pure buddhi and atman are one and

the same.

This is how the ancient sages arrived at truth. Not by postulation

and eulogy but by FACTUAL EXPERIENCE. Pray do not take samadhi as

the samadhi described in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Dont you feel

the discription given here tallies with advaitc realisation where

one springs into many?

Efficacy of patanjala yoga sutras as an independent menas to

realisation is an entire different topic altogether in which i have

lot of reservations. Let us keep it aside for the time being.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA,

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka.

August 29, 2006

Dear Bhaskarji,

Namaskaragalu,

Humble praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Little bit free time at office...hope you wont mind if I stretch this

discussion farther:-))

V prabhuji:

During nirvikalpa-samadhi the Atman is experienced.

bhaskar :

if the Atman is an *experience* in samAdhi, then it is like any

subject-ogject experience & more importantly in this experience, a jnAtru

who is *experiencing* this, should be somewhere there who is still to be

known is it not prabhuji?? Hence knowledge gained through *experience of

Atman* in nirvikalpa samAdhi may not be complete

in its totality coz. experiencer standing outside & experiencing this

experience!!. Otherwise, there is no way a nirvikalpa samAdhi experiencer

can come back to this empirical world. I think upanishad ask us to find out

about this jnAtru/experience by doing shAstra/brahma jignAsa. If Atman was

experienced in samadhi, then that experience is not important, but the

experiencer/jnAtru who is experiencing this is!! Because bliss cannot be

without the bhOktru. So, knowing the bhOktru & his true nature is the aim

of realisation, this is what upanishads are crying at the top of its voice.

V prabhuji:

This paragraph shows that there is an experience of oneness. Can u feel

that oneness now?

bhaskar :

According to shankara, a jnAni is always intuitively established himself in

*oneness* without experiencing the time/space bound restrictions...his

jnAna is *dEsha & kAla atIta jnAna*...if the jnAni's *oneness* experience

is *time bound* & restricted to one particular state ( in this case

samAdhi) then it_is_not advaita paramArtha jnAna.

V prabhuji:

It is said that by repeated process of N.S. or proper nidhidhyasanam the

mind will become so pure that it becomes alomost identical with the self.

Susequently when one continues say either in N.S. or in nidhidhyasanam it

is destroyed completely. Acharya himself says that the experience starts

FADING. Which all the sages who attained nirvikalpa state opined. By

repeated practice mind is made so pure and ultimately destoryed and the

state of sahaja is obtained.

bhaskar :

But I am not able to understanding this sustained *effort* to maintain

jnAna...As I said in my earlier mail, jnAni is nothing but brahman

(brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati) under these circumstances, who will be there

to do prasankhyAna or who will be there to put efforts & towards what??

And another question also crops up here "Is any *human effort* (purusha

taNtra) required to maintain vastu taNtra Atma jnAna?? If yes, can we

modify this *result* by changing our effort?? I dont think there is any

modification possible in avicchinna Atma jnAna... So, IMHO, the knowledge

(paramArtha jnAna) one has already gained does not call for sustained

effort to maintain since after realisation even vedAs are no vedAs then

where is the question of injuction to a jnAni??

V prabhuji:

Pray do not take samadhi as the samadhi described in the Yoga Sutras of

Patanjali. Dont you feel

the discription given here tallies with advaitc realisation where one

springs into many?

bhaskar :

Thanks for admitting that Advaita jnAna is not equal to patanjali's

asaMprajnathA samAdhi jnAna. Since shankara himself categorically says

that yOga shAstra is the dvaita shAstra...According to patanjala's yOga

sUtra *asaMprajnAtha samAdhi or nirbIja samAdhi* is equal to absolute

realisation or ultimate goal of the yOga aspirant. Though one can say

*nirvikalpa* is a doubtless state or represents the equilibrium of mental

state, it is not clear that the person who comes out from this state is a

saMpUrNa (complete) jnAni (even in Acharya's dialogue it is not evident).

Ofcourse, we do know that in deep sleep state also there is no doubts, no

mind etc.!! Still it is not considered as paramArtha. First of all, it

is not clear either, how a person who was in nirvikalpa samAdhi wherein

there is no avidya (if at all we consider nirvikalpa samAdhi as an ultimate

state in advaitic realisation & there is no bIja rUpa avidya or kAraNAvidyA

) can come back to this avidyAkruta prapaNcha!!

V prabhuji:

Efficacy of patanjala yoga sutras as an independent menas to realisation

is an entire different topic altogether in which i have lot of

reservations. Let us keep it aside for the time being.

bhaskar :

We can never ever downplay the efficacy of PY, the first five limbs of PY

i.e. yama, niyama, Asana, praNAyAma & pratyAhAra have been adopted in

advaita sAdhana & recommended by bhagavadpAda himself...but the

interpretation of last three limbs that dhAraNa, dhyAna & samAdhi are

drastically differs from traditional understanding of PY.

If samAdhi is also one of the valid means of knowledge as you said above,

then how many valid means are there?? then how can we treat only *shAstra

pramANa* as ultimate?? prabhuji, as we know, the root cause of saMsAra is

anAdi avidyA to eradicate

this avidyA the ONLY potent tool is ShAstra janya jnAna nothing else. I

donot think shankara anywhere compromising on this issue & offering

substitute & says nirvikalpa samAdhi is also one of the valid means!!. But,

yes, as you said, this is not the right time for the discussion of all

those things...Let us look into those points at the later stage. Till

then....

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

August 29, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

> (a)Atma Jnanam does not require a separate, specific experience.

> (b)Nirvikalpa Samadhi is experienced in the Anandamaya kosha.

> (d)This is no different from deep sleep

-------------------------

> In my humble opinion, ironically, this is what exactly has

happened.

> Over several decades teachings like: An experience is not required

> for Atma jnanam, Nirvikalpa samadhi is not required for Atma

jnanam,

> and several other things connected to this have gone round as

> Vedanta. To a person who has been exposed to the traditional

> teaching of the Upanishads with Acharya's bhashyam, this kind of

> teaching is immediately discernible as something basically

> incorrect. So, to right something that has been propagated over

> several decades, on a mass basis, through the medium of some

> exchanges like what we are having, is an impossible task. I

conclude

> this discussion, at least from my side, by recounting a remark

made

> by a friend. He is a doctorate and a Professor in an Engineering

> College. He has over two decades of exposure to Vedanta as it is

> traditionally taught. He remarked: One difficulty with egroup

> discussions is that you do not know the background of the person

to

> whom you are talking. You do not know what to say, how much to

say

> and how to say. Often such discussions end up with no real

learning

> coming through.

Dear Subbuji,

As a serious student of advaita vedanta i have carefully observed

the behaviour of the so called modern brahmajnanis. They are

propogating the views quoted as above by you. This is being done

systematically by torturing texts of the upanishads and the shankara

bhashyam. Especially couple of Vedantic Institutions, I do not want

to name them. These are done to avoid the questions by the students

like:

1. Have you realised the self?

2. Have you dwelt in nirvikalpa or heigher level of existence?

3. What is the practical method of coming to truth face to face?

These bookworms are telling all sorts of lies to their students and

as said in the upanishads a blind man leading the blind both are

falling into the ditch.

One hour of lecture every week, reapeating gita and upanishads like

parrots and completing the study of prastanatraya in 3-5 years are

the means to brahmajnana!!

You know these students are trained in such a way that if such

things called samadhi or heigher levels of mind are brought to their

notice they will outrightly consider them as the hallucinations of

mind or some queer things.

Well, as you have said this cannot be corrected as it has been

propogated in the mass scale. I am also thinking to pause for some

time as i have given considerable time/energy to this

useful/useless? discussions.

My only sincere desire was that to bring these points to limelight

so that we can think on it for some time.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

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