The Moon is further than the Sun!

[Guest guest]

 

So, there you have it.

Your faith has been tested!

Who has passed and who has failed?

 

Don't try to understand the mind of the pure devotee.

Just accept what the self-realized soul is telling you and have faith in him.

 

The moon distance has nothing to do with faith. Anymore than 2 + 2 being 4 is a matter of faith. Mathematics and distance calculations are about evidence and facts, not faith.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The moon distance has nothing to do with faith. Anymore than 2 + 2 being 4 is a matter of faith. Mathematics and distance calculations are about evidence and facts, not faith.

 

these people refuse to accept the obvious. they will also watch 8 pages of this discussion and still proclaim that statements like "sun is closer to earth than moon" do not adversly affect the preaching... what can you do?

 

when one pretends to be asleep, nobody can wake them up. but if it keeps them happy in devotional service: who cares?

 

yet, presenting such ideas to college kids while preaching seems naive and counterproductive to the extreme.

[theist 1]

 

You must be knowing my thoughts on this already. Anyway, I will answer. I accept the same explanation that you accept, i.e., the Moon reflects the light from the Sun.

But I did not get the verse that says the Moon is self-effulgent. The verse that mentions the moon as the vital force of vegetation does not imply any such thing. May be there is some other verse. Could you post that?

 

Hare Krsna Avinash,

 

I don't know where this comes from. I have never seen such a verse myself but I find many Iskcon people think this way even though Srila Prabhupada says reflection in his purports.

 

It may be from the fifth canto where it talks about Kusa grass on the moon giving of light. Our guest here was arguing this way just a few posts back from mine and I am interested in where this idea comes from.

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krsna Avinash,

 

I don't know where this comes from. I have never seen such a verse myself but I find many Iskcon people think this way even though Srila Prabhupada says reflection in his purports.

 

It may be from the fifth canto where it talks about Kusa grass on the moon giving of light. Our guest here was arguing this way just a few posts back from mine and I am interested in where this idea comes from.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.20.13

 

evaḿ surodād bahis tad-dvi-guṇaḥ samānenāvṛto ghṛtodena yathā-pūrvaḥ kuśa-dvīpo yasmin kuśa-stambo deva-kṛtas tad-dvīpākhyākaro jvalana ivāparaḥ sva-śaṣpa-rociṣā diśo virājayati

 

SYNONYMS

 

evam — thus; surodāt — from the ocean of liquor; bahiḥ — outside; tat-dvi-guṇaḥ — twice that; samānena — equal in width; āvṛtaḥ — surrounded; ghṛta-udena — an ocean of clarified butter; yathā-pūrvaḥ — as previously with Sālmalīdvīpa; kuśa-dvīpa — the island called Kuśadvīpa; yasmin — in which; kuśa-stambaḥ — kuśa grass; deva-kṛtaḥ — created by the supreme will of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tat-dvīpa-ākhyā-karaḥ — giving the island its name; jvalanaḥ — fire; iva — like; aparaḥ — another; sva-śaṣpa-rociṣā — by the effulgence of the young sprouting grass; diśaḥ — all directions; virājayati — illuminates.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Outside the ocean of liquor is another island, known as Kuśadvīpa, which is 800,000 yojanas [6,400,000 miles] wide, twice as wide as the ocean of liquor. As Śālmalīdvīpa is surrounded by a liquor ocean, Kuśadvīpa is surrounded by an ocean of liquid ghee as broad as the island itself. On Kuśadvīpa there are clumps of kuśa grass, from which the island takes its name. This kuśa grass, which was created by the demigods by the will of the Supreme Lord, appears like a second form of fire, but with very mild and pleasing flames. Its young shoots illuminate all directions.

 

PURPORT

 

From the descriptions in this verse, we can make an educated guess about the nature of the flames on the moon. Like the sun, the moon must also be full of flames because without flames there cannot be illumination. The flames on the moon, however, unlike those on the sun, must be mild and pleasing. This is our conviction. The modern theory that the moon is full of dust is not accepted in the verses of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In regard to this verse, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says, suśaṣpāṇi sukomala-śikhās teṣāḿ rociṣā: the kuśa grass illuminates all directions, but its flames are very mild and pleasing. This gives some idea of the flames existing on the moon.

 

<<>>

[Kulapavana 0]

 

PURPORT

 

From the descriptions in this verse, we can make an educated guess about the nature of the flames on the moon. Like the sun, the moon must also be full of flames because without flames there cannot be illumination. The flames on the moon, however, unlike those on the sun, must be mild and pleasing. This is our conviction. The modern theory that the moon is full of dust is not accepted in the verses of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In regard to this verse, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says, suśaṣpāṇi sukomala-śikhās teṣāḿ rociṣā: the kuśa grass illuminates all directions, but its flames are very mild and pleasing. This gives some idea of the flames existing on the moon.<<>>

 

a couple of comments:

 

1. kusa grass here on Earth does not illuminate anything

2. "without flames there cannot be illumination" is not exactly true. there are various sources of light that do not involve flames, such as reflections of light, certain jewels (as worn by the Nagas for example), chemical or biological luminescence.

 

perhaps the verse is speaking poetically about the kusa gras glowing like a flame. just as a field of a light colored grass often seems to glow here on Earth. Kusadvipa is actually illuminated by the Sun, just like all of Bhu-mandala islands.

 

pay attention to the phrase: "we can make an educated guess" that SP is using here. Please.

[Guest guest]

I don't understand how one can presume to accept Srila Prabhupada yet accuse him of making so many erroneous statements.

I don't see how a person can presume to be a devotee yet reject the statements of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

I understand that there are some nonbelievers in this forum.

As for myself, I firmly believe that the Moon is further than the Sun and that everything Srila Prabhupada said was correct.

 

I totally reject NASA and the scientists who claim they went to the Moon.

 

I know for sure there is incalculable rot and corruption in NASA and the United States governement.

 

I put no faith in these demons.

Even if they are right, they are wrong...........because they have no love for Krishna.

 

I also firmly believe that there are some fantastic illusions and tricks of maya in this universe.

 

I don't believe that what we perceive with our senses is dependable at all.

 

Srila Prabhupada is perfect.

 

the end.....

[Guest guest]

 

The moon distance has nothing to do with faith. Anymore than 2 + 2 being 4 is a matter of faith. Mathematics and distance calculations are about evidence and facts, not faith.

 

 

Why should anyone take anything on faith? Should I have faith that whenever I'm in trouble, Superman will save me? If not, why not? What if I revere someone who believes in Superman, who claims he has seen Superman, and thus Superman must be real? Shouldn't I take his claim as true then if I have faith in him? Why can't I regard comic books as gospel just like religious scriptures?

 

What makes my faith in someone who claims to have seen Superman misplaced while faith in a Vaishnav guru or some prophet is well-placed? I can't see what either person talks about because I do not have "eyes". Those eyes have to be attained by me to truly know, and that can only happen when I pursue direct experience. I can only understand when I have seen what they see. That in and of itself is all the faith I can have, and that to me is still a pretty big leap of faith because I'm investing the time to "know" something that might or might not exist. Scripture reading won't get me anywhere. It might inspire me to a certain extent, but when I look around in this world, whatever the scriptures say have little significance for me, and do not seem to be true, so really what use is it?

 

I find the debate about the scientific validity of religious scriptures disheartening because they cannot be deciphered so easily, and there are a multitude of opinions on what many of these passages mean just to prove that point that they are not that easy to truly understand. Not to mention if they do prove to be wrong, how can anyone say with a straight face that the scriptures are repository of facts or Truth? If the scriptures are wrong about a few things, it makes sense to conclude the scriptures are not the ultimate authority on the presence or absence of anything, as it has proven to be a fallible source. Therefore, faith cannot be placed in scriptures.

[Guest guest]

 

As for myself, I firmly believe that the Moon is further than the Sun and that everything Srila Prabhupada said was correct.

 

Based on what? Blind faith?

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

I don't understand how one can presume to accept Srila Prabhupada yet accuse him of making so many erroneous statements.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not an astromoner. Whether he went to the moon planet in his subtle body, I am not sure if he said or not?

 

Gurus are not all-knowing, on every material matter. If a Guru (any Guru) was omniscient, they would instantly be able to answer any question in the Universe, and know every single detail, from how many hairs are on everyone's head, to the exact number of stars in the Universe, and the exact calculation of planet distances. Yet how many Gurus have claimed to be all-knowing? That's what we project onto them.

 

Anyway, certainly not all Gurus have taught the moon was farther. This a point of debate, even among those who claim to be Self-Realized.

 

 

I don't see how a person can presume to be a devotee yet reject the statements of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

You must remember the Puranas use a lot of hyperbole in describing things.

 

No one's relationship with Krishna is based on the distance of the moon from the earth. If their relationship is based on faith in numbers instead of a transcendental relationship, than there is a real problem. A spiritual relationship is based on experience with God, not on our beliefs in moon-distances or whatever.

 

Chant and be happy. Stop being so troubled over this issue - accept the possibility you could be wrong - and don't let that trouble you. If your faith is so weak that it could fail because of this moon issue, than it really was never much to begin with.

 

 

As for myself, I firmly believe that the Moon is further than the Sun and that everything Srila Prabhupada said was correct.

 

Your beliefs have nothing to do with fact however. They are just your personal opinions. To want the whole world to accept your beliefs, when they fly in the face of the facts we know, is ludicrious. You seem to want every scientists to accept your rhetoric, and forget about all the evidence. Of course that is not science, that is foolishness. We might as well go back to saying the world is flat then, if we are going to throw away all astronomical discovery.

 

 

I totally reject NASA and the scientists who claim they went to the Moon.

 

NASA has nothing to do with the moon-distance. Astronomers knew thousands of years ago that the moon was closer. A simple observation of a solar-eclipse confirms this. This knowledge is not some fabrication of NASA. It's a fact that anyone can observe.

 

 

I know for sure there is incalculable rot and corruption in NASA and the United States governement.

 

There is rot and corruption everywhere. This does not change the fact that the sky is blue, fire is hot, 2 + 2 is 4, or any other material facts.

 

 

I put no faith in these demons.

 

Thankfully, the moon distance is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of observation. No faith is required when looking thru a telescope.

 

 

Even if they are right, they are wrong...........because they have no love for Krishna.

 

You do know most people in the United States have never heard about Krishna, let alone read the Bhagavad Gita one time? How can they love someone they have never even heard of? The west needs to hear more about Krishna.

 

I'll say this tho - if they thought all Hare Krishnas were fanatical people that denied the most basic observations (like the moon-distance), I doubt they'd listen to much we had to say about spiritual matters.

 

 

I also firmly believe that there are some fantastic illusions and tricks of maya in this universe.

 

I don't believe that what we perceive with our senses is dependable at all.

 

So the sky might not be blue afterall?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is perfect.

 

the end.....

 

are you saying he was omniscient? did he claim to be all-knowing? Other than an incarnation of God himself, who can claim to be all-knowing?

[gHari 0]

 

The moon distance has nothing to do with faith. Anymore than 2 + 2 being 4 is a matter of faith. Mathematics and distance calculations are about evidence and facts, not faith.

I am afraid that distance determination involves much faith, especially astronomical measurement. We assume for example, that space is uniform and that our local physical laws apply the same everywhere.

 

With large distances not only are such potential errors magnified, but with extremely large distances, the only way to 'measure' ('deduce') distance is by examining the nature of the energy perceived emanating from the object. A rather large number of assumptions build upon one another in order to determine vast distances that way. Distance determination is the essence of astronomy. More than any other science, it remains a tenuous 'best guess' game.

 

I am not doubting the moon measurement for it has likely been verified by several independent methods, but rather just demonstrating the 'faith' required and usually taken for granted by science.

[Guest guest]

 

yet, presenting such ideas to college kids while preaching seems naive and counterproductive to the extreme.

 

Is there any way we can make them stop? Perhaps seize their pamphlets on "the moon thing" which they are distributing alongside "The Higher Taste" and "Beyond Birth and Death?"

 

C'mon people! Please stop preaching about the moon hoax to the college kids! I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are also preaching the jiva-fall controversy at these campus events, sort of as a primer for "The Higher Taste."

 

How do we stop this? From what I've been reading on this thread, such college preaching appears to be widespread, even epidemic in proportions. Perhaps it's gotten so out of hand that it's now a hopeless cause to try and stop them.

 

Maybe if we could find out which colleges have been affected by this preaching and send some pamphlets demonstrating the other side of this controversy??? Nahhh, it's probably too late now. The damage has been done.

 

Oh by gosh, by golly! (it's time for mistletoe and holly)

[theist 1]

It just needs to be deemphasized IMO. What eternal gain is it to anyone to believe anything about the position of the Moon? None, so who gives a ****.

 

We need to emphasize that there is a spirtual reality behind the cosmic manifestation which is Conscious. And that there is Intelligence behind the working of the matertial world. And that we are part of that All Conscious Intelligent One but yet minute.

 

We also need to emphasize that the self is not a product of material nature subject to birth, old age, death and disease. We need to help people understand the illusory nature of the material scene.

 

Until these things are established along with the relationship between them it is even not advisable to try to go into explaining more intimate knowledge of the nature of the Lord.

 

Sambandha first.

 

Let's drop this stupid moon controversy.