Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Yes, I do like using the "prison" analogy....only because none of you can explain it. I'm a prisoner in this material world.....I'm not saying that I want the 3 weeks vacation, nice car, house etc. I understand that I am stuck here.....but I want to know why. I don't want special privledges, I just want to know why we are not allowed to remember the cause of the imprisonment. I will happily stay in prison to pay for what I did, but no one is telling me what I did to deserve the imprisonment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Yes, I do like using the "prison" analogy....only because none of you can explain it. I'm a prisoner in this material world.....I'm not saying that I want the 3 weeks vacation, nice car, house etc. Then you missed the whole point of the prison analogy. You want special concessions without being qualified for them, as Bharata Maharaja was qualified for his. I will happily stay in prison to pay for what I did, but no one is telling me what I did to deserve the imprisonment. I don't know in how many ways this has already been explained to you. It appears we've gone full circle several times and we're now back to square one again. Nothing anyone says seems to register with you. Be careful what you wish for. Maybe someday you'll have that photographic memory of past lives which you seem to long for. You'll remember being a serial killer/rapist in one life, a king who slaughtered thousands (or millions) in another life, and you'll remember being eaten alive by a tiger in another. Do you honestly believe you can cope with your present life if you have all these vivid, hellish, traumatic memories to deal with on a daily basis? That's why several people have told you that it is *mercy* that you are not able to remember these things. If you can try to accept that you are a sinner and that you've been one for many thousands of lifetimes, then surely you accept the fact that you deserve whatever punishment comes your way. This is a prerequisite for taking up spiritual life. Trnad api sunicena... feeling oneself to be insignificant and fallen, and more tolerant than a tree. When we adopt this humble mood, then we can chant suddha nama, which will enable us to quickly attain the lotus feet of Krsna, which as a by-product means freedom from the three-fold miseries. But you've got to have a little faith, my friend. Something from your side is required. Even if it's just a drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 A couple of posts ago: From the above understanding conveyed by Krsna in the Bhagavatam it would appear that to create the complete illusion that the body is the self, all past life experiences are gone. That certainly seems a logical requirement for the conditioned soul to enjoy that incarnation as a material body. It's over, guys. If you don't get it, then read it and read it until you do. It's pretty obvious after a little thought about the purpose of the material world. It's over. It's time to get real about Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Some people do remember their past lives. Children sometimes recall Past Lives and tell their Parents. Others are able to recall past lives in chakra-meditation. Just so you know, it's not impossible to remember a past life.. Even some Gurus have the clairvoyant ability to access the Akashic Records of their shisya and tell them about one or more of their past lives. By their grace, they may share this knowledge with a shisya to better help them understand their present situation, or they may not share it. It depends on the situation, and what will be of help to the shisya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 A couple of posts ago: From the above understanding conveyed by Krsna in the Bhagavatam it would appear that to create the complete illusion that the body is the self, all past life experiences are gone. That certainly seems a logical requirement for the conditioned soul to enjoy that incarnation as a material body. It's over, guys. If you don't get it, then read it and read it until you do. It's pretty obvious after a little thought about the purpose of the material world. It's over. It's time to get real about Krsna. ...."IT WOULD APPEAR..." I'm not looking for this kind of answer. I want the words directly from Krishna. No speculation...As It Is. ...all past life experiences are gone to "create the illusion" = No Free Will. we are put into illusion and only Krishna can take it away....we have to wait until He thinks its ok to let us remember the past. there has to be direct proof somewhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Well....show me the proof where Krishna says "you would go crazy if I let you remember" It appears that your mind is torturing you senseless even without you remembering your past lives. Can you imagine..[!!!].. Do you really need a quote from Krsna to state the obvious? If I tell you the sky is blue, do you reject it until such time that you find a direct quote from Krsna confirming this to be a fact? If your common sense is that weak and scattered, I suspect that in the end, you will reject Krsna's words regardless of what He says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 again with the speculations....the sky is blue because I can see it. If you tell a blind man the sky is blue, does he know what you're saying? No...does that mean he is a fool if he doesn't believe you? I have never had the ability to remember my past lives, so if you tell me that it would be too much of a burden, why should I believe you...a human. That's why I want to hear from Krishna...not from man. Show me Krishna's words about why we are not allowed to remember, and then tell me about imagining such great burdens and such. give me the chance to remember the past "burdens", and then I'll decide if I want to keep remembering them. That is free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 I have never had the ability to remember my past lives, so if you tell me that it would be too much of a burden, why should I believe you...a human. For the moment, forget about previous lives. Go ask a Vietnam War Vet about his nightmares and PTSD which has effectively disabled him from being a productive member of society. Ask a woman who was violently raped about her fears and nightmares. Now multiply these traumas by 100,000 or so. Using just a little common sense, if you could remember past lives and past wars, rapes, murders, accidents, etc., with all the horrors and nightmares, what to speak of all the other traumas, how in the heck do you expect to be able to cope with your present life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Free will? Because you cannot flap your arms and fly, does that mean you do not have the free will to fly? No, that's just the way the material world works. Gravity is a foundation, an underlying axiomatic law. So is the illusion that the body is the self. Under the spell of this illusion the living entity satisfies and then eventually erases its desire to enjoy separately from Sri Krsna. That's how the process works here in never-neverland. That is how it has always worked. Real free will is the choice to either serve God or serve the world, moment to moment. Those are really the only two choices involved in free will. The rest that appears like free will is simply an illusion, our endless conditioning. We are either swept away by love of God, or swept away by the three modes of nature, the mechanical enactment of our accumulated false ego desires. So, changing the normal construct of the world (i.e. destroying the illusion that the body is the self) is exactly like suspending the law of gravity. Lord Krsna in the earlier Bhagavatam quotes explains how the illusion works - that we appear to have just manifested, with no memory of prior existence. There is your sastra you've demanded, Krsna's direct words. If you don't see it. Read and read until you do. This is not rocket science. Quite frankly, even in this life I have difficulty assigning karmic results to their karmic causes. With billions of lifetimes of memories the assignment would be virtually impossible. If/when you are wise you'll realize that the cloud that stops you from seeing this simple answer to the question of previous lives, is the same cloud that is hiding atma. With a little honesty and humility your intelligence can dismantle the impediment. But right now you are in danger of facing the hopeless journey alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 so if we are put under illusion, then where's the free will? so there is no free will..... no matter what i choose to do...good or bad, it's because I am under illusion. That means it's not my fault if I do something bad. Which is it? Either we act based on previous lives or we don't? If we do, then why take away the memory from that life? but If I decide to chant Hare Krishna, that's the only real free will I have? The rest is just puppetry? So if I murder in this life, what will keep me from making the same mistake in the next life? Nothing right? because I'm under illusion....illusion which Krishna controls. So ultimately it's His control over us that causes us to sin. I can murder all of the people I want under "illusion", but then I can just sit down and chant and be "FREE" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 You haven't been listening and your arrogance is playing you for a fool. Why don't I have the free will to go to God whenever the hell I want? This sucks. Boo hoo. I want my money back. I am too great to be placed in such an inferior position. I am great. When I demand, I expect results. Don't you know who I am? Yes, I know who you are. You are a false-ego, ahankara, the resultant aggregate accumulation of the impressions experienced during billions of lifetimes here in the material worlds. You will act according to the nature you have acquired though the conditioning received throughout these billions of past lives, no differently than Pavlov's salivating dogs would behave according to their conditioning. Whose fault is it? Yours - you can choose God or illusion. Reality or the false-ego. Your only hope is humility. It's not as simple as you want to think. Don't trust your mind. Trust God. He is your best friend. If you need to speculate, then keep that as an axiom. Better yet, get yourself some buddhi-yogam. Getting all emotional, sarcastic and offensive about silly straw dogs you create from fantasy is hardly a mature or sincere approach to coming to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 what is so arrogant about trying to find an answer to my question.... you're saying that because I am questioning our placement into illusion I am an arrogant and stubborn fool? some vaishnav you are... a learned vaishnav could easily find me the scriptural evidence to my question....go read some more then post your "advice" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 what is so arrogant about trying to find an answer to my question.... What is remarkable is that you haven't shown the slightest bit of appreciation for the many dozens of replies you have received. Not once! You're behaving like a troll, whether intentionally or unintentionally. It's as if you read our replies and instead of trying to understand, you immediately go into "rebuttal mode." And if you can't rebut it, you ignore it completely. When this thread first began, many felt you were trolling. Since that time, almost 2 months ago, you have done nothing to dispel that perception. A simple "thankyou" now and then would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 We place ourselves into illusion. We have the independence, the free will to do that. Krsna is only correcting that flaw, or as said before He is satisfying our desire to enjoy separately (this requires our belief that we are the controllers, we are this body, that we just took birth as a bag of flesh on this planet and all is for our enjoyment) ... then correcting that desire. This is our free will .... love God or love the world. Our apathy towards Krsna is corrected, for our own good. The deeper truth is that this illusion, our apparent punishment by karmic reactions are all simply Krsna's mercy, His kindness in showing us our true fortune in the Kingdom with Him. Karma is not really punishment/reward - it is simply what is required to correct us, to perfect us. If you think there is a better way, then suggest it. Or if you think it would be better to remain apathetic towards God forever, then perhaps that is indeed currently being arranged for you through your offenses. For someone who has such a hold on the bodily conception of life, it is no wonder you fight so feverously so irrationally to save your illusion. It will be simpler to remain an atheist, than to have to so hate a God who would allow your friends to suffer and die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 When you couldn't understand Lord Krsna's words in the Srimad-Bhagavatam verses quoted, I assumed that your pain had stolen your intelligence. However now, I think that perhaps you are simply not capable of understanding things as they are. It will be best for you to abandon your idea that you are capable of discussing and understanding talks of philosophy. You should simply try to serve authorities and cultivate humility. The Bhagavatam verses for any sensible person should be enough to resolve any questions. You are now arguing with Krsna, Himself. It has become quite unhealthy. Recognize your limitations and move on before you destroy your only hope. Incidentally, previous references to your 'arrogance' related to your actual belief that you could understand how karma works, why this world exists, how this world works, and your understanding of the material presented in this thread. It related to your reaction when you did not understand our answers, to your offensive attitude, and to your expecting us to do your homework for you --- instead of approaching Supersoul yourself like any honest devotee would. But maybe you no longer believe in Supersoul, since He won't present Himself to you; indeed perhaps He has abandoned you as we are preparing to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/37/en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 For trying to reply to the stubborn guest.... Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva cha patitanam pavenebhyo vaishnavebhyo namo namah Wow such patience and mercy shown to one so stubborn and arrogant is the true characteristic of a devotee. To the Guest posing the question.... in Bhagavad Gita Ch4 verse 40 ajnah- fools who have no knowladge in standard scripture; ca - and; asraddadhanah - without faith in revealed scripture; ca- also; samsaya - doubts; atma - persone; vinasyati - falls back; na - never; ayam - this; lokah - world; asti - there is; na - neither; parah - next life; na - sukham - happiness; samsaya - doubtful; atmanah - of the persone. TRANSLATION:- But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God Conciousness. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next. Please also read the purport by H.D.G. Sirla Prabhupada. As Ghari Prabhu also said please listen and " move on before you destroy your only hope." These devotees really do care for You as is evident in the time and energy invested in their numerous replies. All you have to do is to subdue your angry/shouting/doubting mind with the wise words of the shastra. Remember to Listen to shastra (scripture) because she is our Mother who sometimes uses harsh words such as calling us "fools" to bring us to our senses and directs us to our Father Lord Sri Krsna. As Ghari Prabhu said this is probably the last of replies you can expect and as the saying goes " There is no one as blind as one who does not want to see and no one as deaf as one who does not want to hear" All Glories to Devotees of the Lord All Glories to Sirla Prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 My 100 fold Humble Obeisance goes out to those Parent Devotees with the handicapped Children. Even though facing such material hardship and still having so much faith in the Lord that they serve Him with such Love!!! If I could only have one ounce of such faith my life would be perfect. Then look at those parents with a healthy child who said "I don't need to hear this hippy, mystical S**T " They have absolutely no hanker to know about God. Just look at the difference... Also look at the lives of the spotless devotees like Queen Kunti, Drupadi etc who had to face so much "hardship" and yet remained so close to the Lord. We don't know what Karma these spotless devotees had and neither did they want to know or question the Lord Why???? Queen Kunti Prayed to the Lord to give her more suffering so that she may always remember the Lord. So dear guest before posting your question here please I request you to Humbily approach those dedicated devotees and try to serve them Maybe you may gain the answers you so long for. All Glories to the devotees of the Lord All Glories to H.D.G. Sirla Prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 so if we are put under illusion, then where's the free will? so there is no free will..... no matter what i choose to do...good or bad, it's because I am under illusion. That means it's not my fault if I do something bad. Which is it? Either we act based on previous lives or we don't? If we do, then why take away the memory from that life? but If I decide to chant Hare Krishna, that's the only real free will I have? The rest is just puppetry? So if I murder in this life, what will keep me from making the same mistake in the next life? Nothing right? because I'm under illusion....illusion which Krishna controls. So ultimately it's His control over us that causes us to sin. I can murder all of the people I want under "illusion", but then I can just sit down and chant and be "FREE" Hari OM: When Krishna gives free will it is 100%, since He does not do anything imperfectly. So you are free either to chant Hare Krishna or Curse Him or commit suicide (the last two are almost same) If you think this life is miserable, you are free to choose a different life AND work towards it in whatever way you think is nice for you. we only say the path of chanting is more safe and practical way for this yuga , however you are Free to choose your way. Also your free will does not immediately frutify, that when you want all the miseries to stop, it does not stop immediately it takes time, the time required will depend on your present situation and the (right) effort you take. When you make a business contract with some body it is purely your choice you can make or dont make at any point of time, however after you made the contract you can't break it at your Free will, since the other party should also agree for that, the same applies here. AS for why you can't remember your past lives, is YOUR fault. Do you remember what happened exactly yesterday (24*60*60) or the last year or from the first second of your birth? No , why? because you are so much attached to your senses , if you break the attachements you will know Everything. As Bhagvan says in BG, you don't remember all the births , Pranatapa (conquerer of foes). So you are so much interested in conquering your foes of this birth, that you spend all the time and energy in that, and hence nothing is left to remember anything else "I can murder all of the people I want under "illusion" but then I can just sit down and chant and be "FREE" how can you have wants and don't wants under illusion? and you can be "FREE" only when you realize that this soul neither kills nor get killed and sitting and chanting (which was discouraged in BG) was only a step to that realization. So stop all these highly confusing and complex questions to show case your intelligence to the forum, accept what is been told in BG, become humble, discharge your duties with a sense of deattachement, in that way not only you will become FREE, will also help others become FREE. Otherwise you are just wasting your gits (time, energy and intelligence) in friviouls pursuits , providing a sense of amusement or irritation to the forumers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 STILL NO ANSWERS..... why aren't we ALLOWED to remember? we born, suffer , die according to our KARMA....I SEE THAT, I UNDERSTAND THAT but WHY are we not given even a slight chance to remember our past lives....I wan't to see the mistakes to correct them. If you need to understand a painting on a canvas ... you need to view it from the angle of the painter who painted it. For that you may have to understand the thinking process of the painter. It should be only to minimize the suffering and realize God. If a person suffers, he prays god for his sufferings thinking that he is inocent and thus get closer. But, if a person is suffering as a punishment, he will only suffer and may not get closer to God. At the same time, he may question "why in this birth ?". Secondly, it is the will of god that we forget the past and grow speedily since remembering past lives bring obstacles. Tomorrow, you may ask a question "why no wings to us ?". From our point of view, it is difficult to analyze the 3 types of karma in depth and it is not meant for us to understand the complex results of bad actions. One should be only aware of it to avoid bad results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayodhya Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 Karma is a way of explaining why bad things happen to good people. It is not important to remember what we did wrong because it would place emphasis on the past and not the present. "Be here now," as Ram Dass put it. Place emphasis on the present moment and you will properly deal with the problem at hand instead of trying to avoid whatever it was (assuming you knew your evil deeds) in the future. This way, you would never be able to cope with other problems that do not deal with the problems you (somehow) knew you committed. About free will: I don't understand what your idea of free will is, but don't you have it? You state that karma somehow dictates our lives, but the number of possible good and bad deeds in previous lives does not amount to the 80% of your life that you still lead. To think that karma is somehow a determinant (like some Christians will say about how Hinduism is essentially a cycle of violence), you can always embetter your life by coping with problems properly instead of doing more bad deeds to rectify it. Also, karma need not be simply about good and bad deeds. Karma accumulates from desire prompted activities. Think of it this way. Constantly through life, your soul is a bathtub with the water constantly on. Water (desire) is constantly flowing into your bathtub as it is draining out (by all the selfless activities). When you do not act simply by desire (desire is not simply a want, but a strong attachment to the want. If you need clarification, please ask), the water is turned off, and the drain keeps pulling out. Ultimately, you want to arrive at a dry bathtub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 What's the point of karma if we can't remember our mistakes. that means all these people who sin in this life can go about doing the same thing in the next without any remorse...afterall, you can't remember what was right/wrong. there is no free will if don't have the freedom to learn from our mistakes. u cant remember today because: a) u would turn against god if you could remember, everyone would rebel and be angry b) some people did/do remember ther past lives esp in the first 3 yugas when they were very spiritual and more closer 2 god. these had control though and some still do in this age, too much knowledge can destroy you. c) ur soul is punished, not ur physical body, hence ur body/brain doesnt remember anyway, untill it gets punished enough and comes back and has chance to realise god and the works of karma d) it is stated in the vedas that jivas/souls wanted to enjoy materialistic pleasures so this is what god gave them, these would not be maya/materliastic pleasures if we just thought of god naturaly as human beings.. we don't, hence we have religion to teach us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Spontaneous recall of past lives may be a rather dubious privilege. Suppose you were now able to have unfettered access to all your past life memories and were to discover that you were one of the worst monsters in history. What if you discovered that you were Genghis Khan, Hitler, or Stalin? Worse, perhaps, you realize you have spent lifetimes as a child abuser or village idiot. How would you feel? How would you deal with the horror and belated remorse? You would probably feel so depressed and discouraged, you would have no strength to keep on. Moreover, imagine how much karma your life now and in the future would be subject to. You would have a mountain of misfortune to deal with. How could you deal with it? Perhaps you would live in fear of retribution for past sins. You would probably feel hopelessness, guilt, and shame and find it tremendously difficult to get on with your life. People don't like to remember things that are unpleasant or evil. Fortunately cosmic law protects you with forgetfulness and gives you a second chance. People need to be protected even from comparatively innocuous past lives. Your task now is to fulfil the destiny you set for yourself. You must work to learn the sometimes-hard lessons you have set. You do not remember your past lives because these memories might hamper your spiritual progress. They could cause feelings of guilt or yearning for experiences past. The memories in your unconscious are immortal. Although the memory of your past lives has vanished from your mind, if the appropriate brain cells were awakened you would be able to remember everything. Very often, these silent areas of the mind are opened during sleep and the memories awaken during dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Brining my thread back to life.... Have any of you found scriptural proof as to why we are not ALLOWED to remember our actions from past lives? Srila Prabhupada says that all answers can be found in the scriptures, so there has to be something. Please...someone tell me something besides these OPINIONS: 1) it is fortunate that we don't remember...it would be too much of a burden 2) we are under illusion and we don't have the capacity to remember All I want is a verse/text that says...... "I do not allow you to remember because......" that's all....I am not insulting anyone, or being stubborn, arrogant, and puffed-up with false intelligence. I ADMIT....I AM the most fallen soul. I HAVE NO INTELLIGENCE. that is why I am asking you great devotees to find me this one answer. -Hare Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Brining my thread back to life.... Have any of you found scriptural proof as to why we are not ALLOWED to remember our actions from past lives? Srila Prabhupada says that all answers can be found in the scriptures, so there has to be something. Please...someone tell me something besides these OPINIONS: 1) it is fortunate that we don't remember...it would be too much of a burden 2) we are under illusion and we don't have the capacity to remember All I want is a verse/text that says...... "I do not allow you to remember because......" that's all....I am not insulting anyone, or being stubborn, arrogant, and puffed-up with false intelligence. I ADMIT....I AM the most fallen soul. I HAVE NO INTELLIGENCE. that is why I am asking you great devotees to find me this one answer. -Hare Krishna Hari OM: Yes this is the correct way of reasoning, that is accepting Shastric proof, rather than dry and logical reasoning. The following verse, is from an Upanishad (i think Mahanarayana Upanishad or Garba Upanishad, couldn't remember now) "The Jiva enters the womb after 3 months.. for the next 7 months it suffers from darkness, crampiness and pungent odour.. it recollects all the previous births, at which time it makes the resolve never to come back to this world and this should be the last birth. Alas when it is released from the Womb Narayana covers it with Maha-Maya and it forgets everything, including its resolve" And the cycle ...... well, continues. i hope this is a good enough proof and now you can again make that resolve and try to achieve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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