Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

[Guest guest]

Most wonderful quotes from Hrimati, thank you.

 

I do feel the need to address d_4h's suggestion that one pray for the failure

of a godbrother or sisters endeavors. I do note that he asks that "we see

the ideal and not any offense", which I greatly appreciate. I respect that he

has strong views/ideals, this is most definitely a great quality. What does

concern me is that we, as devotees, support each other, in all our common

goals,

and also learn to respect that others might not be able to measure up to our

standards, in our view. This does not mean that others are not just as

sincerely endeavoring to please Srila Prabhupada, Krishna, or to help their

godbrothers to do the same.

 

"This is the difference between a devotee and a nondevotee. For a nondevotee,

the world is full of problems, whereas for a devotee the entire world is full

of happiness"

 

Everyone, even the demon is in some way or other cultivating Krishna

conciousness.

Prabhupada states that .."Kamsa, of course, was also Krishna conscious, but

because he regarded Krishna as his enemy....consciousness was not favorable

for his existence." SB10.ch2) So if even the enemy of Krishna is to be seen as

 

acting in Krishna conciousness, then what to speak of our godbrothers?

 

I would respectfully ask d_4 to consider this.....always stand up for what

you believe in, be firm, make your point known. But kindly understand that

others might be attempting the same, with the same sincerity. This should be

respected by both sides. Consider that to wish failure for another devotee is

not

kind, not compassionate. Someone elses endeavor need not be a threat to our

endeavors, unless they are directly trying to foil our attempts. Then we

should take a stand, ask Krishna for help. But I do not believe it would make

Prabhupada happy that we pray for the failure of another devotees endeavor.

obiesances ekaBuddhi

[Guest guest]

Dear Syamasundara prabhu

Haribol. I got in touch with my source of this info, a lawyer RK Joshi of

Viniyog Parivar Trust, animal rights org whose activists rescue thousands

of cattle from slaughter. He couldnt give me scriptural ref but he states

that tradition and cherished social values have the same force as sastra.

Up to 200 yrs ago cows as sacred beings were never sold, only donated, and

their milk religious likewise was never sold but freely distributed. Cows

and milk were not seen as commodities.

 

The cattle traders raised bullocks and sold them to farmers for work.

Every day surplus milk was made into dahi(yogurt) and then made into

butter and ghee. Buttermilk was freely distributed , but ghee was sold, and

was famous as the white gold of India.. So it isnt just Vedic. Its recent

history. The Brits started killing of cows to feed their armies. Even the

Muslims never did that previously but under their rule too cows were

protected.

Now production of beef and veal is going up in India (seen in Business India

March 2003)

1996 2003

 

Production : 925 1920

Consumption: 721 1500

Exports : 204 420 ( 1000 tons)

 

Bullocks are the main victims.

 

ys Labangalatika dasi

 

:

 

-

Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK) <Syamasundara (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; Rosalie Malik

<labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>; <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>; <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>;

<doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:23 PM

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

 

,

>

> Hare Krishna.

>

> >In Vedic culture milk was never to be sold, and as soon as the profit

> >motive

> >comes in the abuse starts

>

> I was wondering on what basis you asertained that in the vedic culture

milk

> was not sold?

>

> ys syamasundar dasa

> Bhaktivedanta Manor

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/27/03 10:31:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net writes:

 

 

> butter and ghee. Buttermilk was freely distributed , but ghee was sold,

> and

> was famous as the white gold of India..

 

thank you, this information was very interesting, especially the part about

the muslims being respectful of cow protection. This also brings up the point

 

that I have been trying (very poorly) to get across. That is this, what all

the experts are saying is that there is no profit in milk, nor should there

be. What I have been wanting to emphasize is the possibility of making cowherd

 

life sustainable by making things out of the milk.

 

The cow as mother produces milk. If we do not use her milk, distribute it,

we are being miserly. Milk from protected cows is special. I remember years

ago 28?? the milk from the Gita Nagari farm was winning awards for the most

cream etc. Because the cows were loved, I always assumed. Cottage industry

does not imply big mass production. It implies family, community, tended with

loving care, business. Production is only at the level that nature provides.

No overendeavor. This type of thing is greatly respected and appreciated in

some circles. If devotees are to be inspired to seriously take up the owning

of

cows it will have to be in a way that does not entail undue hardship.

Everyone has their cow. Well tended these cows produce more milk than the

family

can use. They can, or can give the extra milk to someone, for the making of

products that would be distributed as prasadam. We should not only be

thinking

to have protected milk for our survival, but to share the karmic benefits

with others. obeisances ekaBuddhi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/28/2003 8:20:23 AM Central Standard Time,

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com writes:

>Well tended these cows produce more milk than the

>family

>can use. They can, or can give the extra milk to someone, for the making

of

>products that would be distributed as prasadam.

This is absolutely a fact. When I was living in New Vrindavan, I had my own

cow (Ekadasi). She was a little Jersey whom we bought from a heard that was

sold entirely for slaughter because the farmer could not afford to stay in the

dairy business (each of those cows was giving something like 30 lbs a day at

the

time of slaughter). He singled Ekadasi out for survival because she was

pregnant and he felt some compassion. (I was later critizised [perhaps rightly

so]

for buying another cow when NV had so many--Oh well).

 

Anyway, after three years, she was still giving over a gallon of milk each

day. This is more than one family can (or should) use. The result was that our

freezer (sadly) was full of massive balls of golden butter that were waiting to

 

be made into ghee. Our cabinet was also full of 1qt Ball jars of ghee. And we

gave this ghee and butter to anyone we could think of any chace we got. We

also gave some to the temple for Radha Vrindavan Chandra. This again was from

one little Jersey cow--after three years of loving care.

 

Each morning I would feed her grains, brush her, massage her and tell her how

beautiful she looked (this is actually an important factor--to talk to them

sweetly). We would listen to a cassette of Mother Yamini singing Krishna

pastimes in English (English because Ekadasi was once a 'karmi' cow and cold

not

understand the Bengali bhajanas). Ekadasi's calf (Dvadasi) was always nearby

watching her mother and when the milking was finished they would go out to

pasture

and play.

 

We would also sell the excess milk (as Srila Prabhupada indicated we should)

to devotees. Several would, in fact, pay no less then $10 per gallon on their

own initiative. One couple, who came from India with their young daughter,

would drive from Pittsburgh, PA each week to get two gallons because their

daughter had an allergic reaction to American Milk (the doctor said she was

allergic

to all milk but it turns out she was allergic to antibiotics, or perhaps

unseen stress hormones that were absent in Ekadasi's milk).

 

There is no doubt that when a cow is satisfied, she defies the common rules

for dairy cows--as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times, a cow gives its milk

 

out of love and affection. Once Dvadasi was bigger, Ekadasi would no longer

let her nurse--she would kick her away, but when I came into the barn with my

brush and a bucket of grain, at the same time each day, and press play on the

cassette player, the milk would begin to flow from her utters. Half way through

 

milking, with the bucket tossed across the stall, she would often fall asleep

with her head in the trough and her legs would begin to buckle and she would

jerk herself awake again (like japa time).

 

Sadly, I had to leave that situation, but before I left, I offered my

apologies to that cow out of respect--that cow, unlike my biological mother,

taught

me what a motherly relationship is about. Cows are certainly our mothers, (or

are willing to be), and when you take the time to treat them as such, they

offer their love in return, and they offer whatever they have (milk, manure and

 

more love) in return, in reciprocation.

 

This was not an amazing cow, she was just a satisfied cow, a mother cow that,

out of love, adopted a human boy--I believe most cows are willing to do the

same.

 

Just thought I would share.

YS-Gopal

[Guest guest]

>Prabhupäda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money.

 

 

hmm. Srila Prabhupada was always perfectly logical and practical. Although he

was the purest devotee on the planet and basically wrote the rules which we

attampt to live by, he was in no way a fanatic. He was always practical.

 

This is not that we endeavor to make so many pregnant cows and so much milk

to sell, but if the cows are there and the milk is there, of course, we can

sell it.

 

I think the point is that is must be managed properly with the long term

always formost in mind. Like Madhava Ghosh and others have been pointing out

for

years, the prime initiative must be to see that the cows, bulls and land are

not neglected or even alowed to be seen as a burden, should the milk cease to

flow. They (land included) must have a retirement fund funded from and by the

first drop of milk or first crop to the last. This is something that was also

going to be incorperated into the CSA in Alachua, if I remember correctly.

 

I have not spoken with Pancaratna prabhu in a long while, but the focus was

also not primarily on the milk production--that was to be there, but it was

mostly on vegetable production--which was eventually (and this may be the

trouble) going to be turned over to trained ox teams. The trouble is that,

seldom in

histroy (exception is Cuba) have poeple completely given up on machines once

they are estabhished on the land.

 

-Gopal

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

 

This is good stuff Gopal... I'm happy you shared this.. I also have some

similar stories...

 

You have the exact and proper by all means.... and most of all compassion and

love.... I bow down to you..... again and again..... Its only sad that you had

to leave.......

 

ys, Derek-

 

 

>This is absolutely a fact. When I was living in New Vrindavan, I had my own

>cow (Ekadasi). She was a little Jersey whom we bought from a heard that was

>sold entirely for slaughter because the farmer could not afford to stay in the

 

>dairy business (each of those cows was giving something like 30 lbs a day at

the

>time of slaughter). He singled Ekadasi out for survival because she was

>pregnant and he felt some compassion. (I was later critizised [perhaps rightly

so]

>for buying another cow when NV had so many--Oh well).

>

>Anyway, after three years, she was still giving over a gallon of milk each

>day. This is more than one family can (or should) use. The result was that our

 

>freezer (sadly) was full of massive balls of golden butter that were waiting

to

>be made into ghee. Our cabinet was also full of 1qt Ball jars of ghee. And we

>gave this ghee and butter to anyone we could think of any chace we got. We

>also gave some to the temple for Radha Vrindavan Chandra. This again was from

>one little Jersey cow--after three years of loving care.

>

>Each morning I would feed her grains, brush her, massage her and tell her how

>beautiful she looked (this is actually an important factor--to talk to them

>sweetly). We would listen to a cassette of Mother Yamini singing Krishna

>pastimes in English (English because Ekadasi was once a 'karmi' cow and cold

not

>understand the Bengali bhajanas). Ekadasi's calf (Dvadasi) was always nearby

>watching her mother and when the milking was finished they would go out to

pasture

>and play.

>

>We would also sell the excess milk (as Srila Prabhupada indicated we should)

>to devotees. Several would, in fact, pay no less then $10 per gallon on their

>own initiative. One couple, who came from India with their young daughter,

>would drive from Pittsburgh, PA each week to get two gallons because their

>daughter had an allergic reaction to American Milk (the doctor said she was

allergic

>to all milk but it turns out she was allergic to antibiotics, or perhaps

>unseen stress hormones that were absent in Ekadasi's milk).

>

>There is no doubt that when a cow is satisfied, she defies the common rules

>for dairy cows--as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times, a cow gives its

milk

>out of love and affection. Once Dvadasi was bigger, Ekadasi would no longer

>let her nurse--she would kick her away, but when I came into the barn with my

>brush and a bucket of grain, at the same time each day, and press play on the

>cassette player, the milk would begin to flow from her utters. Half way

through

>milking, with the bucket tossed across the stall, she would often fall asleep

>with her head in the trough and her legs would begin to buckle and she would

>jerk herself awake again (like japa time).

>

>Sadly, I had to leave that situation, but before I left, I offered my

>apologies to that cow out of respect--that cow, unlike my biological mother,

taught

>me what a motherly relationship is about. Cows are certainly our mothers, (or

>are willing to be), and when you take the time to treat them as such, they

>offer their love in return, and they offer whatever they have (milk, manure

and

>more love) in return, in reciprocation.

>

>This was not an amazing cow, she was just a satisfied cow, a mother cow that,

>out of love, adopted a human boy--I believe most cows are willing to do the

>same.

>

>Just thought I would share.

>YS-Gopal

 

Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed

providers now. .

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

> >Prabhupäda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money.

>

>

>hmm. Srila Prabhupada was always perfectly logical and practical. Although he

>was the purest devotee on the planet and basically wrote the rules which we

>attampt to live by, he was in no way a fanatic. He was always practical.

 

I'm sorry Gopal, but I felt Prabhupada as a fanatic..... and when I look in my

dictionary it says... (fanatic-- inspired by a deity : Marked by excessive

enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.) I don't think of fanatic as

something bad... As has some have made it.

 

>This is not that we endeavor to make so many pregnant cows and so much milk

>to sell, but if the cows are there and the milk is there, of course, we can

>sell it.

>

 

Exactly................

 

Hare Krsna Gopal,....

 

ys, Derek-

 

 

 

 

>

Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access — limited time

only! Get dial-up Internet access now with our best offer: 6 months

@$9.95/month!.

[Guest guest]

Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to take

on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave this

mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she

reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka

[Guest guest]

Thank you,

JCD

 

 

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com [Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com]

Friday, December 26, 2003 8:37 PM

Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN); d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com;

labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net; gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com; doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net; Cow

(Protection and related issues)

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

 

Most wonderful quotes from Hrimati, thank you.

 

I do feel the need to address d_4h's suggestion that one pray for the

failure

of a godbrother or sisters endeavors. I do note that he asks that "we see

the ideal and not any offense", which I greatly appreciate. I respect that

he

has strong views/ideals, this is most definitely a great quality. What does

concern me is that we, as devotees, support each other, in all our common

goals,

and also learn to respect that others might not be able to measure up to our

standards, in our view. This does not mean that others are not just as

sincerely endeavoring to please Srila Prabhupada, Krishna, or to help their

godbrothers to do the same.

 

"This is the difference between a devotee and a nondevotee. For a

nondevotee,

the world is full of problems, whereas for a devotee the entire world is

full

of happiness"

 

Everyone, even the demon is in some way or other cultivating Krishna

conciousness.

Prabhupada states that .."Kamsa, of course, was also Krishna conscious, but

because he regarded Krishna as his enemy....consciousness was not favorable

for his existence." SB10.ch2) So if even the enemy of Krishna is to be seen

as

 

acting in Krishna conciousness, then what to speak of our godbrothers?

 

I would respectfully ask d_4 to consider this.....always stand up for what

you believe in, be firm, make your point known. But kindly understand that

others might be attempting the same, with the same sincerity. This should

be

respected by both sides. Consider that to wish failure for another devotee

is

not

kind, not compassionate. Someone elses endeavor need not be a threat to our

endeavors, unless they are directly trying to foil our attempts. Then we

should take a stand, ask Krishna for help. But I do not believe it would

make

Prabhupada happy that we pray for the failure of another devotees endeavor.

obiesances ekaBuddhi

 

 

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Guest guest]

> Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to

take

> on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave

this

> mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she

> reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka

>

 

They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of

maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is

flowing.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/29/03 10:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

 

 

> he left

 

I had considered the down side. I've heard many horror stories about

starving cows in Iskcon. I opted to paint the side of the cow saved from doom.

So

the question is "how to keep them down on the farm"? This having cows and then

 

leaving them is an ongoing scenario. A friend has just left theirs. many

devotees give up. It might be practical for the cow conference to ask those

that left, what could have been different, for them to stay with that

lifestyle.

Of course many times it is marital breakups, from what I have seen. But if

Iskcon wants to see widespread responsiblity of cow ownership, than it must be

a well rounded course of action and response addressing personal, financial,

emotional etc. concerns. obeisances eka

[Guest guest]

Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

 

>

>

>>Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to

>>

>>

>take

>

>

>>on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave

>>

>>

>this

>

>

>>mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she

>>reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka

>>

>>

>>

>

>They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of

>maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is

>flowing.

>

>

 

If it is true that he ended up palming the cow off on the temple in the

end, then I'm afraid I must agree with the assessment that he should

never have taken the cow in the first place -- especially not when he

was sufficiently warned against making that commitment in the first place.

 

It is always condemnable to take on the responsibility for keeping a cow

when you are not going to be able to maintain it in the long run.

 

ys

hkdd

 

>

>

[Guest guest]

Probably, the first thing is that any member of the Hare Krsna movement

who wants to own a cow should read the Minimum Cow Protection Standards

on the ISCOWP website.

 

I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even bother to

do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an

sentimental atheist.

 

No one would ever think of installing some Deities without studying the

proper procedures for maintaining them. They would never dare to install

Deities based on sentiment alone. But when it comes to "installing"

Krsna's cows in one's home, too many devotees believe that an idealistic

sentiment is enough. Clearly it is not enough.

 

ys

hkdd

 

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

>In a message dated 12/29/03 10:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

>

>

>

>

>>he left

>>

>>

>

>I had considered the down side. I've heard many horror stories about

>starving cows in Iskcon. I opted to paint the side of the cow saved from

doom.

>So

>the question is "how to keep them down on the farm"? This having cows and

then

>

>leaving them is an ongoing scenario. A friend has just left theirs. many

>devotees give up. It might be practical for the cow conference to ask those

>that left, what could have been different, for them to stay with that

>lifestyle.

> Of course many times it is marital breakups, from what I have seen. But if

>Iskcon wants to see widespread responsiblity of cow ownership, than it must be

 

>a well rounded course of action and response addressing personal, financial,

>emotional etc. concerns. obeisances eka

>

>

>-----------------------

>To from this mailing list, send an email to:

>Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a

temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them. At the

time,

they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they were

going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself.

 

Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting temple

cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside of this

 

conference.

 

For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically) from a

temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was not

the

one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn).

 

In a message dated 12/29/2003 9:40:43 AM Central Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of

maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is

flowing.

[Guest guest]

> You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a

> temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them.

 

You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now.

 

>At the time,

> they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they

were

> going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself.

 

No comment :-)

 

>

> Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting temple

> cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside of

this

>

> conference.

>

 

I hope you don't think the replies too harsh. You were brave to even bring

it up. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The

important thing is to try and stop the pattern from endlessly repeating

itself, and you could do good service to be a voice of caution to the

seemingly endless line of romantic agrarianists who think they can pull it

off and still sell milk relatively cheaply. I can all but guarantuee that

the person selling milk in GN at $3 a gallon is putting zero aside for

future maintanence of the cow and its calf, and once the milk is gone, those

who bought it will feel no responsibility to help.

 

I think someone like Pandu who has that understanding, it would be better to

just pay the $3 to the milker, and put the balance into a trust fund with

the cow as a beneficiary. Of course, on such a small scale, fees may make it

infeasible to do so, but if 50 or a 100 were paying the surplus into a

fund, it would be significant. And it could and should be thousnads doing

so, if everyone buying mainstream milk would pay a little extra into it.

 

 

 

> For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically) from a

> temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was

not

> the

> one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn).

 

Are you removed enough from the situation emotionally by now that I could

laugh at you about all that, and your feelings wouldn't be hurt? :-)

Incidentally, nice to hear from you, it's been a while.

[Guest guest]

> You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now.

 

Yes this is true. We are open to almost any kind of contribution to

Ekadasi's upkeep.

 

at the www.iscowp.org site click the Adopt A Cow Today button and learn all

about it. It is stated there that different sponsorship programs can be

arranged just get in contact with iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net

 

Ekadasi can also be viewed there at the end of the list. The picture was

taken this year in the spring.

 

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

 

 

> [Original Message]

> Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 12/30/2003 5:10:04 PM

> Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

>

>

>

>

>

> > You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a

> > temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them.

>

> You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now.

>

> >At the time,

> > they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they

> were

> > going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself.

>

> No comment :-)

>

> >

> > Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting

temple

> > cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside

of

> this

> >

> > conference.

> >

>

> I hope you don't think the replies too harsh. You were brave to even bring

> it up. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The

> important thing is to try and stop the pattern from endlessly repeating

> itself, and you could do good service to be a voice of caution to the

> seemingly endless line of romantic agrarianists who think they can pull it

> off and still sell milk relatively cheaply. I can all but guarantuee that

> the person selling milk in GN at $3 a gallon is putting zero aside for

> future maintanence of the cow and its calf, and once the milk is gone,

those

> who bought it will feel no responsibility to help.

>

> I think someone like Pandu who has that understanding, it would be better

to

> just pay the $3 to the milker, and put the balance into a trust fund with

> the cow as a beneficiary. Of course, on such a small scale, fees may make

it

> infeasible to do so, but if 50 or a 100 were paying the surplus into a

> fund, it would be significant. And it could and should be thousnads doing

> so, if everyone buying mainstream milk would pay a little extra into it.

>

>

>

> > For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically)

from a

> > temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was

> not

> > the

> > one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn).

>

> Are you removed enough from the situation emotionally by now that I could

> laugh at you about all that, and your feelings wouldn't be hurt? :-)

> Incidentally, nice to hear from you, it's been a while.

[Guest guest]

>

> I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even bother to

> do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an

> sentimental atheist.

 

Wow...I thought we are not going to call each other names any more.

He was doing nice service to his cow and saved her from the Slaughterhouse.

Please give him credit for that.

Y.s.

Hrimati dasi

[Guest guest]

I saw the picture of Ekadasi and must admit that she is still as beautiful as

ever. After paying my rent this month, I will have about $75.00 in the bank;

If anyone wants to adopt a cowherd family... I am going for a promotion at my

work and will know the results in January. After that we will certainly

consider giving what ever we can for her upkeep. Again, I had know idea that

she was

given to the general heard.

 

As Ghosh, (whom I consider my as my affectionate father or uncle) pointed

out, this is a very important matter (taking a personal cow as a grhasta).

Although I was trying to point out how a mother cow gives her milk out of

affection

to her maintainer, Ghosh has brought up a very important point; that of

maintaining a personal cow after the milk is gone. It has also presented a key

issue

as presented by Ekabuddhi prabhu; how one's financial situation and personal

relationships effect cow protection as an occupation or full time service.

 

I can tell you all right now that if I could find a place that would support

my wife, son, and self, (in a realistic, sustainable situation) I would be

hole heatedly committed to that project. And I could find many other like

myself.

 

What I've noticed is that in grhasta life, the cow protection failures

basically mirror the failures of the various communities as a whole. There is

mistrust, un-honored trust or an immature expectation of how things will be or

self

imposed blindness to how things really are; people leave. People cannot afford

to maintain the situations they enter and/or they get fried due to the

interpersonal conflicts that arise within the strain. There is a lack of

training in

how to be a grihasta and a lack of training on how to cooperate with others

in a compassionate way. You cannot have a village or a family when there is

instability.

 

When I came to NV in 1994, there were half a dozen other young men in the

ashram. We were all there to fulfill Srila Prabhupada's vision for NV (history

repeats itself). Over time we all got married, but our vision, for most of us,

did not change. However, there was no support from the top. Many of the elders

wanted a retirement community. One of the issues that cut my commitment to NV

was a land issue.

 

One young man and myself had a minor issue over how much of a pasture we were

each going to buy (it was between our houses and we both had family cows-we

were actually both very eager to do the same thing for Srila Prabhupada). At

that time, NV commissioned one 'senior' devotee to sell all of their land for

them with a slight commission. This devotee turned around and sold most of the

best grazing land on the ridge, including the land that the younger devotee and

 

I were already in the process of acquiring, to himself (did he make

commission off himself? I do not know). He put his big house in the middle of

the

pasture. Neither of us had much taste for small farming or dealing with the

"community" after that. There were dozens of issue like that. I have come to

attribute much of it to the inconceivable dynamics of NV, especially how it was

at

that time. But the end result was broken trust, broken faith in a vision and in

 

the end, broken spirits.

 

All, if not most of those younger devotee couples from that time all moved to

Columbus (big town with stable economy and sane administration) to raise

their familles; the are there now and are happy and settled, but not how we or

Srila Prabhupada had originally desired.

 

Alachua was a little different, but still there is a lack of commitment or

willingness to move ahead or trust those who wish to take on the chore. I

waited

for two years to see how things would develop there; speaking with older

devotees giving my input. Everyone wants to see something to happen. Just no

one

can agree on a vision. The one's with the vision and the will to begin the

program don't have the time or finances. The one's with the finances often do

not

have the will or the correct vision. There is a great and very warranted fear

of starting something again. Some think it is better to let the herds die off.

Some still feel that if someone, even with a family, expects $1000 a month

they are in maya. Some think that farms should just be single family endeavors

(that brings us to the family cow and personal commitment).

 

In the end, I decided to focus on raising a stable and functional family and

preach downtown whenever I get the chance. I do not preach about self

sufficiency because I do not want to get anyone's hopes up. I simply preach

about self

realization and keep my cow sentiments inside. As I indicated previously, we

do have a vision to start a farm/temple out here; start from scratch. Sort of

a working vedic farm as I presented to some devotees in Alachua--all you need

is a highway and a college town. We have the bonus of being less than an hour

from Fairfield (Yogaville). My emphasis is to learn from the mistakes of

ISKCON's past with regard to kids, cows, women, land and just how we treat

eachother in general. The most destructive force in ISKCON is how we treat each

other

on a one-to-one basis; from cows to kids to women to land to each personal

interaction with another. If done right it can be the greatest impetus for

growth

-- internally and externally.

 

This is getting lengthy--I apologize. This simple subject is interconnected

to the life blood of our movement in America (perhaps elsewhere too). From one

family's experience, you can see the troubles that are at the root of our

stagnancy with regard to healthy family oriented villages and cooperation in

spiritual life as well as agrarian life.

 

This should be enough to open a few conversations.

 

In a message dated 12/30/2003 4:20:29 PM Central Standard Time,

ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

> You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now.

 

Yes this is true. We are open to almost any kind of contribution to

Ekadasi's upkeep.

 

at the www.iscowp.org site click the Adopt A Cow Today button and learn all

about it. It is stated there that different sponsorship programs can be

arranged just get in contact with iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net

 

Ekadasi can also be viewed there at the end of the list. The picture was

taken this year in the spring.

 

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

 

 

> [Original Message]

> Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 12/30/2003 5:10:04 PM

> Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

>

>

>

>

>

> > You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a

> > temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them.

>

> You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now.

>

> >At the time,

> > they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they

> were

> > going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself.

>

> No comment :-)

>

> >

> > Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting

temple

> > cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside

of

> this

> >

> > conference.

> >

>

> I hope you don't think the replies too harsh. You were brave to even bring

> it up. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The

> important thing is to try and stop the pattern from endlessly repeating

> itself, and you could do good service to be a voice of caution to the

> seemingly endless line of romantic agrarianists who think they can pull it

> off and still sell milk relatively cheaply. I can all but guarantuee that

> the person selling milk in GN at $3 a gallon is putting zero aside for

> future maintanence of the cow and its calf, and once the milk is gone,

those

> who bought it will feel no responsibility to help.

>

> I think someone like Pandu who has that understanding, it would be better

to

> just pay the $3 to the milker, and put the balance into a trust fund with

> the cow as a beneficiary. Of course, on such a small scale, fees may make

it

> infeasible to do so, but if 50 or a 100 were paying the surplus into a

> fund, it would be significant. And it could and should be thousnads doing

> so, if everyone buying mainstream milk would pay a little extra into it.

>

>

>

> > For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically)

from a

> > temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was

> not

> > the

> > one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn).

>

> Are you removed enough from the situation emotionally by now that I could

> laugh at you about all that, and your feelings wouldn't be hurt? :-)

> Incidentally, nice to hear from you, it's been a while.

[Guest guest]

-

"Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN)" <Hrimati.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, December 30, 2003 6:30 pm

Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

>

> >

> > I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even

> bother to

> > do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an

> > sentimental atheist.

>

> Wow...I thought we are not going to call each other names any more.

> He was doing nice service to his cow and saved her from the

> Slaughterhouse.Please give him credit for that.

> Y.s.

> Hrimati dasi

 

This is a general statement, not a specific one. Nevertheless, it was probably

too rash. It's just frustrating that after 15 years of preaching the same

message, "don't take a cow unless you are really committed to provide for it

(and the calf) for its whole life" -- that there are still people who don't get

it. And the result is that either the cow must suffer -- or some already

overworked temple cowherd becomes even more burnt out.

 

ys

hkdd

[Guest guest]

Haribol Hrimati well said

He saved Ekadasi from the butcher so he deserves only praise not harsh

words. The temple shouldnt gripe about taking care of unproductive cows.

They should be glad to serve them. They are getting so much benefit from

the cows, more than they can ever give and even the overworked cowherd

should be happy the poor cow is alive and safe.

It seems the prabhu had to leave NV community and anything can happen in

life unexpectedly. but taking up the responsibility of keeping a cow is

better than never taking it up .

 

We accepted a cow a year ago because her owner couldnt take care of her

and as soon as she walked in the gate she sat down and gave birth to a

beautiful black calf, Kalindi... after a 5 km walk on the road. We are

controlling our breeding, but we are a Trust for cow protection so we have

an obligation to accept cows in difficulty. Another one is Bandi who

was beaten and left to die in the jungle with a broken leg by a drunken

farmer and she delivered her calf 2 months later and is an extremely

happy cow tho lame. And Parvati whose mother died of neglect ( septic

wound) at another farm and we fed on a baby bottel for 9 months. In

the past I had given away a couple of cows on demand but i have brought

them back as they didnt like their other homes. So call it sentiment

but compassion is also a sentiment that Vaisnavas can develop. The

money part is not much of a problem and cow protection is a challenge,

Just because my husband and I are old doesnt mean we should ignore the

challenge of saving these cows. Actually they are saving us. Because

you cant see everything in the future doesnt mean you just stop and do

nothing. At least every devotee can Adopt a cow.

your servant labangalatika

-

Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

Cc: <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>;

<d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, December 30, 2003 4:41 AM

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

 

>

>

> Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >>Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to

> >>

> >>

> >take

> >

> >

> >>on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave

> >>

> >>

> >this

> >

> >

> >>mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she

> >>reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of

> >maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk

is

> >flowing.

> >

> >

>

> If it is true that he ended up palming the cow off on the temple in the

> end, then I'm afraid I must agree with the assessment that he should

> never have taken the cow in the first place -- especially not when he

> was sufficiently warned against making that commitment in the first place.

>

> It is always condemnable to take on the responsibility for keeping a cow

> when you are not going to be able to maintain it in the long run.

>

> ys

> hkdd

>

> >

> >

>

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

 

> > > I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even

> > bother to

> > > do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an

> > > sentimental atheist.

> >

> > Wow...I thought we are not going to call each other names any more.

> > He was doing nice service to his cow and saved her from the

> > Slaughterhouse.Please give him credit for that.

> > Y.s.

> > Hrimati dasi

>

>This is a general statement, not a specific one. Nevertheless, it was

probably too rash. It's just frustrating that after 15 years of preaching the

same message, "don't take a cow unless you are really committed to provide for

it (and the calf) for its whole life" -- that there are still people who don't

get it. And the result is that either the cow must suffer -- or some already

overworked temple cowherd becomes even more burnt out.

>

>ys

>hkdd

>

I can see both sides... But" if you could change the hands of time" would

you......??? All cows are Krsna's..... and none a burden, just society that

taxes and creates the burden...

Hare Krsna......

 

Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. .

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

Hare Krsna Matta, You are exactly right... I was a cowheard (Gopa) and I am

very greatful for my service they and Krsna allowed me.. Even the ones that

appeared in the middle of the night... Its not the work or service of the cows

that can fry you... Its the managers who have no clue of what to do that makes

the great burden.. ( can be described in detail but opens a big can of

worms.).... I just want to say I honor your ideals and I think you are an great

example... This is the way. I sence your mentality in your words... All

Glories to you and your great husband and your service to the auspicious giving

mothers, fathers and children; the cows....

I hope to Meet you and your husband someday.....

Hare Krsna..........

Derek-

 

>Haribol Hrimati well said

>He saved Ekadasi from the butcher so he deserves only praise not harsh

>words. The temple shouldnt gripe about taking care of unproductive cows.

>They should be glad to serve them. They are getting so much benefit from

>the cows, more than they can ever give and even the overworked cowherd

>should be happy the poor cow is alive and safe.

>It seems the prabhu had to leave NV community and anything can happen in

>life unexpectedly. but taking up the responsibility of keeping a cow is

>better than never taking it up .

>

>We accepted a cow a year ago because her owner couldnt take care of her

>and as soon as she walked in the gate she sat down and gave birth to a

>beautiful black calf, Kalindi... after a 5 km walk on the road. We are

>controlling our breeding, but we are a Trust for cow protection so we have

>an obligation to accept cows in difficulty. Another one is Bandi who

>was beaten and left to die in the jungle with a broken leg by a drunken

>farmer and she delivered her calf 2 months later and is an extremely

>happy cow tho lame. And Parvati whose mother died of neglect ( septic

>wound) at another farm and we fed on a baby bottel for 9 months. In

>the past I had given away a couple of cows on demand but i have brought

>them back as they didnt like their other homes. So call it sentiment

>but compassion is also a sentiment that Vaisnavas can develop. The

>money part is not much of a problem and cow protection is a challenge,

>Just because my husband and I are old doesnt mean we should ignore the

>challenge of saving these cows. Actually they are saving us. Because

>you cant see everything in the future doesnt mean you just stop and do

>nothing. At least every devotee can Adopt a cow.

>your servant labangalatika

>-

>Noma Petroff

>Mark Middle Mountain

>Cc: ; ; ;

>; ; Cow (Protection and related issues)

>

>Tuesday, December 30, 2003 4:41 AM

>Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

>

>

> >

> >

> > Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >>Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to

> > >>

> > >>

> > >take

> > >

> > >

> > >>on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave

> > >>

> > >>

> > >this

> > >

> > >

> > >>mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she

> > >>reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >

> > >They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of

> > >maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk

>is

> > >flowing.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If it is true that he ended up palming the cow off on the temple in the

> > end, then I'm afraid I must agree with the assessment that he should

> > never have taken the cow in the first place -- especially not when he

> > was sufficiently warned against making that commitment in the first place.

> >

> > It is always condemnable to take on the responsibility for keeping a cow

> > when you are not going to be able to maintain it in the long run.

> >

> > ys

> > hkdd

> >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

 

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providers now..

[Guest guest]

Ekabuddhi - have you read the Cow Protection Standards this conference

evolved?