Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

[Guest guest]

I have been away from e-mail of late, however, just checked this one....

 

The question of whether abstaining from non-protected milk would be

beneficial, prompted a panic in me. I feel that the economic implications of

this

would do quite the opposite of what is intended. If there is no demand for

their

milk (unprotected) .,

then those relying on cattle, milking or otherwise, to make a living, would

see no alternative but to slaughter. It is only common sense, it seems to me.

 

 

If I am a blacksmith, with a lot of iron on hand, but no one is using wagons

any longer, than I am forced to find another way to get money out of my iron.

Perhaps towel racks? If I have a herd of cows that I milk to pay my

mortgage, but no-one is drinking milk, what to do? Instead of milk I would

have to

market hides and meat. My livelihood would be at stake. (pardon potential

pun)

 

 

So as suggested, the best course is to offer what we have to Krishna. If

there is possibility and incentive, than communities can be developed,

self-sustaining. But Prabhupada wanted preaching, not cloistering.

Self-sustaining

communities would be great as teaching tools. They could be designed in the

fashion of Colonial Williamsburg, etc. As retreats. Not to escape the world.

 

The world will not go away, we must work within it to the best of our ability.

 

And help others to do the same. obeisances ekaB

[Guest guest]

>If there is no demand for

> their

> milk (unprotected) .,

> then those relying on cattle, milking or otherwise, to make a living,

would

> see no alternative but to slaughter. It is only common sense, it seems to

me.

>

 

They are going to be slaughtered in any case, it is just a question of when.

Less demand = less breeding = less slaughter in the long run.

 

The only way dairy cows won't be slaughtered is if consumers pay the true

cost of maintaining a cow for its lifetime. Now the low price of milk is

subsidized by the inevitable slaguhter of the cow for meat and leather, and

other by products of slaughter.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/15/03 7:41:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

 

 

> The only way dairy cows won't be slaughtered is if consumers pay the true

> cost of maintaining a cow for its lifetime

 

People are greedy. Pay for their lifetime, they will still get slaughtered,

lifetime is paid for, but their death will yeild even more money. The less

demand = less breeding works if it is understood that there is less demand for

death.

 

This is a time when leather couches are popular and inexpensive. I am seeing

more and more product being made of leather. Stuffed animals even. People

are greedy for money. Emphasis needs to be put of non-violence, money will

always be desired.

The understanding that leather means death, and that death is

undesirable.....

(meat too of course). To get that point across strongly, emphasis on caring

for humans needs to be there also. Not that we "protect the cows" and kick

our neighbors, godbrothers in the behind. Caring for, respect for, all

Krishnas creatures.

obeisances ekaB

[Guest guest]

>

> This is a time when leather couches are popular and inexpensive. I am

seeing

> more and more product being made of leather. Stuffed animals even.

 

India is the largest exporter of leather at present, I believe.

 

> People

> are greedy for money. Emphasis needs to be put of non-violence, money

will

> always be desired.

> The understanding that leather means death, and that death is

> undesirable.....

> (meat too of course). To get that point across strongly, emphasis on

caring

> for humans needs to be there also. Not that we "protect the cows" and

kick

> our neighbors, godbrothers in the behind. Caring for, respect for, all

> Krishnas creatures.

> obeisances ekaB

 

That is so generic it is meaningless.

[Guest guest]

-

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com

Monday, December 15, 2003 7:30 pm

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

> I have been away from e-mail of late, however, just checked this

> one....

> The question of whether abstaining from non-protected milk would

> be

> beneficial, prompted a panic in me. I feel that the economic

> implications of

> this

> would do quite the opposite of what is intended. If there is no

> demand for

> their

> milk (unprotected) .,

> then those relying on cattle, milking or otherwise, to make a

> living, would

> see no alternative but to slaughter. It is only common sense, it

> seems to me.

>

>

> If I am a blacksmith, with a lot of iron on hand, but no one is

> using wagons

> any longer, than I am forced to find another way to get money out

> of my iron.

> Perhaps towel racks? If I have a herd of cows that I milk to

> pay my

> mortgage, but no-one is drinking milk, what to do? Instead of

> milk I would

> have to

> market hides and meat. My livelihood would be at stake. (pardon

> potential

> pun)

 

I agree with your logic completely, and have tried to present almost the

identical argument in the past. Unfortunately, most people don't seem to

agree.

 

But thanks for presenting it one more time. The most important component of

the answer is what you and Balabhadra and some others are doing -- which is to

actually work the oxen and train others to do the same.

 

Tonight I read a folk tale from Harayan which shows the importance of providing

a good example in working the oxen. I might send it as a separate text. Again

thanks for your good example.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

>

> So as suggested, the best course is to offer what we have to

> Krishna. If

> there is possibility and incentive, than communities can be

> developed,

> self-sustaining. But Prabhupada wanted preaching, not cloistering.

> Self-sustaining

> communities would be great as teaching tools. They could be

> designed in the

> fashion of Colonial Williamsburg, etc. As retreats. Not to

> escape the world.

>

> The world will not go away, we must work within it to the best of

> our ability.

>

> And help others to do the same. obeisances ekaB

>

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/15/03 8:28:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

 

 

> That is so generic it is meaningless

 

I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

 

The specifics are, devotees, in America at least, are known for being rude,

insensitive, irresponsible, lazy, sometimes. And that's just within the

family.

Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and caring for cows,

and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise. (there is a quote

to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment). If an impact is to be

made, a broad example is what will impress others to follow. Perhaps you have

not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot. Devotees are sometimes seen,

by

the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small picture which causes

perversions. Not, of course that cow protection is a perversion, but that

people will want to follow those they see as living a life more idealistic than

 

they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible, again happier,

others will want what we have, including no intoxicants, meateating, etc.

However if we are seen as focused only on our agenda, not caring for what the

world around us is going through, well then, why should anyone pay attention.

probably too generic for you. obeisances ekaB

[Guest guest]

> > That is so generic it is meaningless

>

> I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

>

 

That's nice. Too bad you missed the point. anyone can spout generalities.

making them apply to the real world is another matter.

 

 

> Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and caring for

cows,

> and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise. (there is a

quote

> to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment).

 

I am not talking about expounding. I am talking about doing.

 

>Perhaps you have > not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot.

 

Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so let

me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

 

The principle of protecting the weak was violated in regards to the

children in ISKCON, yes. As it also has been in regards to the cows. The

children have grown up, found their own voice and pushed past those who

minimized their condition. The cows have no voice, and there are those who

continue to minimize their condition.

 

>Devotees are sometimes seen, by

> the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small picture which

causes

> perversions.

 

The devotees are also perceived as being hypocrites for preaching about a

cow protector, Krsna, and not protecting cows themselves, drinking milk

produced in abominable circumstances.

 

>but that

> people will want to follow those they see as living a life more idealistic

than

> they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible, again

happier,

> others will want what we have, including no intoxicants, meateating, etc.

 

Again, these are such generalized statements no one can argue with them. If

everyone were kind to each other, we would have a peaceful society. Like

that. How to put it in practice?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/16/03 7:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

 

 

> Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so let

> me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

 

You are indeed very wise. And I appreciate your honesty. Generally I am

going for humor, more than condescendation, but as you have so beautifully

pointed out, I do, often, fail miserably.

 

The practical aspects of caring is respect. Obviously you felt disrespected

and felt a need to lash out. So I am a bad example. The point I should have

made is that in order for people to understand devotees desire to protect the

cow, the cow needs to be "humanized"? for want of a better word. Similarly to

the way "pets" are humanized in the mind of humans. Once the cow is

respected as valuable in life than the rest will follow. Hand in hand with

that

aspect is that we learn to respect each other.

I have not seen much of it in Iskcon. A friend gave class a while back using

the word

re- to go back plus spect-to look. Respect = to look again. Not to take at

face value, but to capture the depth. There are trainings for this. In

Iskcon Dhira Govinda is doing nicely. There are non-devotee trainings. The

secular world is moving ahead.

The world will expect more of devotees, if they are going to be impressed

enough to follow devotees lead.

 

And I must reiterate....the only practical, working way I can see these

communities working in America at least, is to have them be classroom examples,

 

retreats, open to the public, run with that in mind. As a wholesome life

training resort. This would involve, oh, I don't know if you know what a

kibbutz

is?? but more or less that example. People would pay to come to these

communities, they would get yoga lessons, plowing as exercise, milking lessons,

 

cooking. shoveling a little of what you probably think I am giving you now,

etc.

They would pay....products would be made and marketed. Milk products, i.e.

sweets, ghee etc.. Mail order catalogues, Gift shops. etc. This involves

devotees planning, working together, having a common goal. At the same time

focusing on the reason for the endeavor....to make the WORLD aware of the value

of

cow and oxen. The example is there, it is open to the public, it can make an

impact. If the result of oxen power is that devotees are living in shacks and

 

don't have enough money to clothe their children, not too many folks will be

saying, oh yes oxen power, great idea.

 

anyway as a ps. I do realize that I have never had and will never have any

place in Iskcon. And I do very much appreciate your reminding me of that fact.

 

obeisances

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhus,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

It is short sighted to say that not buying milk products from the

slaughterhouse diary industry will accomplish nothing or that it will cause

great harm. As Madhava Gosh stated, all the animals in the dairy industry

are going to be slaughtered, it is just a matter of when. Eventually less

animals will be bred to supply the lessening demand for dairy products. As

far as the dairy farmers going into leather products on a long term basis;

I think they will not be able to compete with the low prices of the biggest

leather exporter in the world, India.

 

Just because we can not have the ideal supported by ISKCON and the

devotees, i.e. ox power agriculture, doesn't mean we can't take a stand

that is less complicated and not difficult to institute-abstain from milk

products from the commercial dairy as much as possible. At this point in

the movement it has been long enough to say that since we don't have the

ideal of ox power supported agriculture we need do nothing. That has been

going on for more than 30 years.

 

If one is worried about the image that devotees have due to taking some

position on cow protection; I can honestly tell you that we appear

hypocritical and with no backbone because we do nothing concrete nor take

any strong position. Lately, I have been contacted by several persons in

PETA for various reasons. These people are vegans for ethical reasons. They

do not have the perfect philosophy we do, but they are willing to commit to

some abstinence, some austerities for the sake of a moral issue. On the

other hand, most devotees take no action and just go on saying it won't

make any difference whatever we do-just a drop in the bucket. And the

devotees have the perfect philosophy about cow protection.

 

In 1991 when we traveled with our oxen across the country we got to see

first hand for the first time how this lack of position affects the public

image of ISKCON and devotees. We were inundated with a supportive number of

young people (in their twenties). It was a Festival Of India event and

these people went around to look at the exhibits and talk to the devotees.

They then came back to us and had some problems with what they saw. They

asked us why were almost all the devotees wearing leather shoes

(Burkenstocks) and where did the milk products in the prasadam come from.

We could only point to our own shoes which were not leather and say that

the movement was in a transition-moving away from supporting the leather

and dairy industries. That was now almost 13 years ago - devotees are still

wearing leather and the farms have been decreased-protecting less cows, and

commercial dairy products are used with the same excuses.

 

Madhava Gosh and others have presented the theory of giving a percentage of

the cost of dairy milk that is bought by a devotee to a cow protection

program. It is a good idea, but has not taken root. Maybe it demands too

much to do-i.e. figure the percentage, mail a check every month. Abstaining

is simple. At least deceasing the amount of intake of commercial milk

products. At least you won't appear as a hyprocrite to potential devotees

who are inquiring. Or you can support outright your local cow protection

program, finaincially, offerring labor, etc. Whatever you do, do something

and don't go on saying it is allright to go on buying milk products from

the dairy industry. That only perpetrates the hypocrisy. I have been

initiated for 32 years and I have heard that position all of that time and

in the meantime ISKCON cows have died due to neglect, some sold to

slaughter and ox power has decreased not to mention even being considered

for support by the whole movement.

 

Any observer with any intelligence can see the hypocrisy. Any amount of so

called kindness starts right here with having ACTIVE compassion for the

most vulnerable being who has no voice, can't make any lawsuits-the cow. If

we are not taking any ACTIVE position on cow protection any attempts at

kindness to other humans will prove shallow and another hypocrisy.

 

"The killing of cows by human society is one of the grossest suicidal

policies, and those who are anxious to cultivate the human spirit must turn

their attention first toward the question of cow protection."

SB 10.5.7 Purport

 

Your servant,

Chayadevi

 

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

 

 

> [Original Message]

> Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related

issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 12/16/2003 9:50:03 AM

> Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

>

>

> > > That is so generic it is meaningless

> >

> > I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

> >

>

> That's nice. Too bad you missed the point. anyone can spout generalities.

> making them apply to the real world is another matter.

>

>

> > Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and caring for

> cows,

> > and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise. (there is a

> quote

> > to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment).

>

> I am not talking about expounding. I am talking about doing.

>

> >Perhaps you have > not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot.

>

> Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so let

> me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

>

> The principle of protecting the weak was violated in regards to the

> children in ISKCON, yes. As it also has been in regards to the cows. The

> children have grown up, found their own voice and pushed past those who

> minimized their condition. The cows have no voice, and there are those who

> continue to minimize their condition.

>

> >Devotees are sometimes seen, by

> > the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small picture which

> causes

> > perversions.

>

> The devotees are also perceived as being hypocrites for preaching about a

> cow protector, Krsna, and not protecting cows themselves, drinking milk

> produced in abominable circumstances.

>

> >but that

> > people will want to follow those they see as living a life more

idealistic

> than

> > they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible, again

> happier,

> > others will want what we have, including no intoxicants, meateating,

etc.

>

> Again, these are such generalized statements no one can argue with them.

If

> everyone were kind to each other, we would have a peaceful society. Like

> that. How to put it in practice?

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Ekabhuddhi,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

Your points of how to make cow protection noticeable, attractive to others,

in my opinion are good. At least in a country like the USA and other well

developed countries. Having spent quite a few years trying to attract

support for cow protection, I have come to a simliar conclusion. Its like

bringing ox power and cow protection into the 21 st century so that

others(including devotees) can relate to it from their vantage point. In

some ways it is a total shame that the philosophy and practice is not

enough, that it has to be packaged (promoted) in a pretty package so that

more people can eventually appreciate. But as long as the cow is protected

and the ox gets some employment-that's what counts. And since, within

ISKCON and without, in most countries this is not happening then it can

only be an improvement.

 

Your servant,

Chayadevi

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

 

 

> [Original Message]

> <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK)

<Syamasundara (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow

(Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 12/16/2003 12:50:03 PM

> Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

>

> In a message dated 12/16/03 7:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

>

>

> > Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so

let

> > me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

>

> You are indeed very wise. And I appreciate your honesty. Generally I am

> going for humor, more than condescendation, but as you have so

beautifully

> pointed out, I do, often, fail miserably.

>

> The practical aspects of caring is respect. Obviously you felt

disrespected

> and felt a need to lash out. So I am a bad example. The point I should

have

> made is that in order for people to understand devotees desire to protect

the

> cow, the cow needs to be "humanized"? for want of a better word.

Similarly to

> the way "pets" are humanized in the mind of humans. Once the cow is

> respected as valuable in life than the rest will follow. Hand in hand

with

> that

> aspect is that we learn to respect each other.

> I have not seen much of it in Iskcon. A friend gave class a while back

using

> the word

> re- to go back plus spect-to look. Respect = to look again. Not to

take at

> face value, but to capture the depth. There are trainings for this. In

> Iskcon Dhira Govinda is doing nicely. There are non-devotee trainings.

The

> secular world is moving ahead.

> The world will expect more of devotees, if they are going to be impressed

> enough to follow devotees lead.

>

> And I must reiterate....the only practical, working way I can see these

> communities working in America at least, is to have them be classroom

examples,

>

> retreats, open to the public, run with that in mind. As a wholesome life

> training resort. This would involve, oh, I don't know if you know what a

> kibbutz

> is?? but more or less that example. People would pay to come to these

> communities, they would get yoga lessons, plowing as exercise, milking

lessons,

>

> cooking. shoveling a little of what you probably think I am giving you

now,

> etc.

> They would pay....products would be made and marketed. Milk products,

i.e.

> sweets, ghee etc.. Mail order catalogues, Gift shops. etc. This

involves

> devotees planning, working together, having a common goal. At the same

time

> focusing on the reason for the endeavor....to make the WORLD aware of the

value

> of

> cow and oxen. The example is there, it is open to the public, it can

make an

> impact. If the result of oxen power is that devotees are living in

shacks and

>

> don't have enough money to clothe their children, not too many folks will

be

> saying, oh yes oxen power, great idea.

>

> anyway as a ps. I do realize that I have never had and will never have

any

> place in Iskcon. And I do very much appreciate your reminding me of that

fact.

>

> obeisances

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

Dear Chayadevi,

That was amazing... You are an abode of knowlege.... all glories to you...

Dear Ekkabudh, If we beggin to advertise our cow and simple liiving retreats, I

think people will just take them as just that.... a puppet show...... Where is

the seperatist... the strangers who live differently... in fact soo different

than the status quo- that it causes alarm for curiosity.... questions.... Why

do you live like this....???? ( Like when prabhupada came and was dancing in

the park with new devotees in front of NY... distributing Krsna Consiousness...

not marketing.. and afraid of not fitting in or wearing a sheika in public..)

This is a non- profit deal... Questions:..... Then Answers... " We live like

this cause...." 21st century is christian time.. time is relavant, don't be

soo impressed with machines of this Kali age..They break very easily.... We

don't need to baby the civilization to Krsna consiousness and cow protection..

We should first be interested ourselves to increase and the example will be the

preaching tool...

Q.?

( What is it That drives these people...?) (devotees)...........

 

 

The letter I wrote to Syam said different things and you took one on a tangent

which struck you... please read all... don't missunderstand... Here is a letter

from Prabhupada which is life.. there are deep meanings within even a couple

words.. please read many times...

Hare Krsna..... Derek-

 

******************************************************************************

 

SO FARMING MEANS-

 

Lilavati: Srila Prabhupada? We were thinking that unless the African people

 

can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will

 

chant while we are there and then they will forget.

 

Prabhupada: Why don't you become an example yourself?

 

Lilavati: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.

 

Prabhupada: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than

 

precept. [break]

 

Jnana: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

 

Prabhupada: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

 

Jnana: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like

 

that.

 

Prabhupada: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be

 

successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all.

 

Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help

 

from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat,

 

vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items

 

you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get

 

money. Then it will be failure.

 

Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter; you

 

must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first

 

of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is

 

needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be

 

self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That is

 

wanted. Yavad-artha prayojanam. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati siddhi-dah.

 

You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not eating

 

too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is absolutely

 

necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material

 

civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary. Just

 

like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So

 

similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live

 

simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage

 

and have garden. You'll live very peacefully. But they're constructing big,

 

big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here by

 

car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is

 

the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the

 

village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is

 

their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles'

 

speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most ludicrous

 

civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New

 

Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh

 

vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk

 

preparation, kachori, halava with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat

 

sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare

 

Krsna. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.

 

Jnana: A nice program here.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is

 

money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?"

 

Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he

 

is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?

 

Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain

 

always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your civilization?

 

Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like

 

hog.

 

Brahmananda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all

 

nonsense things. This is their civilization.

 

Jnana: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not so...

 

Prabhupada: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example

 

and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other

 

farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi,

 

sandesa, rasagulla, rabri, so many, halava. They become: "Oh, so many nice

 

things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the

 

animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized,

 

they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live

 

very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply

 

eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as

 

civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te

 

viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [sB 7.5.31]. Real civilization means to

 

understand God. Here is God.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi

 

 

 

>Dear Prabhus,

>

>PAMHO. AGTSP.

>

>It is short sighted to say that not buying milk products from the

>slaughterhouse diary industry will accomplish nothing or that it will cause

>great harm. As Madhava Gosh stated, all the animals in the dairy industry

>are going to be slaughtered, it is just a matter of when. Eventually less

>animals will be bred to supply the lessening demand for dairy products. As

>far as the dairy farmers going into leather products on a long term basis;

>I think they will not be able to compete with the low prices of the biggest

>leather exporter in the world, India.

>

>Just because we can not have the ideal supported by ISKCON and the

>devotees, i.e. ox power agriculture, doesn't mean we can't take a stand

>that is less complicated and not difficult to institute-abstain from milk

>products from the commercial dairy as much as possible. At this point in

>the movement it has been long enough to say that since we don't have the

>ideal of ox power supported agriculture we need do nothing. That has been

>going on for more than 30 years.

>

>If one is worried about the image that devotees have due to taking some

>position on cow protection; I can honestly tell you that we appear

>hypocritical and with no backbone because we do nothing concrete nor take

>any strong position. Lately, I have been contacted by several persons in

>PETA for various reasons. These people are vegans for ethical reasons. They

>do not have the perfect philosophy we do, but they are willing to commit to

>some abstinence, some austerities for the sake of a moral issue. On the

>other hand, most devotees take no action and just go on saying it won't

>make any difference whatever we do-just a drop in the bucket. And the

>devotees have the perfect philosophy about cow protection.

>

>In 1991 when we traveled with our oxen across the country we got to see

>first hand for the first time how this lack of position affects the public

>image of ISKCON and devotees. We were inundated with a supportive number of

>young people (in their twenties). It was a Festival Of India event and

>these people went around to look at the exhibits and talk to the devotees.

>They then came back to us and had some problems with what they saw. They

>asked us why were almost all the devotees wearing leather shoes

>(Burkenstocks) and where did the milk products in the prasadam come from.

>We could only point to our own shoes which were not leather and say that

>the movement was in a transition-moving away from supporting the leather

>and dairy industries. That was now almost 13 years ago - devotees are still

>wearing leather and the farms have been decreased-protecting less cows, and

>commercial dairy products are used with the same excuses.

>

>Madhava Gosh and others have presented the theory of giving a percentage of

>the cost of dairy milk that is bought by a devotee to a cow protection

>program. It is a good idea, but has not taken root. Maybe it demands too

>much to do-i.e. figure the percentage, mail a check every month. Abstaining

>is simple. At least deceasing the amount of intake of commercial milk

>products. At least you won't appear as a hyprocrite to potential devotees

>who are inquiring. Or you can support outright your local cow protection

>program, finaincially, offerring labor, etc. Whatever you do, do something

>and don't go on saying it is allright to go on buying milk products from

>the dairy industry. That only perpetrates the hypocrisy. I have been

>initiated for 32 years and I have heard that position all of that time and

>in the meantime ISKCON cows have died due to neglect, some sold to

>slaughter and ox power has decreased not to mention even being considered

>for support by the whole movement.

>

>Any observer with any intelligence can see the hypocrisy. Any amount of so

>called kindness starts right here with having ACTIVE compassion for the

>most vulnerable being who has no voice, can't make any lawsuits-the cow. If

>we are not taking any ACTIVE position on cow protection any attempts at

>kindness to other humans will prove shallow and another hypocrisy.

>

>"The killing of cows by human society is one of the grossest suicidal

>policies, and those who are anxious to cultivate the human spirit must turn

>their attention first toward the question of cow protection."

>SB 10.5.7 Purport

>

>Your servant,

>Chayadevi

>

>Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

>

>

> > [Original Message]

> > Mark Middle Mountain

> > ; ; Cow (Protection and related

>issues)

> > 12/16/2003 9:50:03 AM

> > Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

> >

> >

> > > > That is so generic it is meaningless

> > >

> > > I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

> > >

> >

> > That's nice. Too bad you missed the point. anyone can spout generalities.

> > making them apply to the real world is another matter.

> >

> >

> > > Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and caring for

> > cows,

> > > and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise. (there is a

> > quote

> > > to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment).

> >

> > I am not talking about expounding. I am talking about doing.

> >

> > >Perhaps you have > not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot.

> >

> > Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so let

> > me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

> >

> > The principle of protecting the weak was violated in regards to the

> > children in ISKCON, yes. As it also has been in regards to the cows. The

> > children have grown up, found their own voice and pushed past those who

> > minimized their condition. The cows have no voice, and there are those who

> > continue to minimize their condition.

> >

> > >Devotees are sometimes seen, by

> > > the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small picture which

> > causes

> > > perversions.

> >

> > The devotees are also perceived as being hypocrites for preaching about a

> > cow protector, Krsna, and not protecting cows themselves, drinking milk

> > produced in abominable circumstances.

> >

> > >but that

> > > people will want to follow those they see as living a life more

>idealistic

> > than

> > > they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible, again

> > happier,

> > > others will want what we have, including no intoxicants, meateating,

>etc.

> >

> > Again, these are such generalized statements no one can argue with them.

>If

> > everyone were kind to each other, we would have a peaceful society. Like

> > that. How to put it in practice?

> >

>

>

>

>-----------------------

>To from this mailing list, send an email to:

>Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

Grab our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. .

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

Dear Chayadevi,

 

This is a fully thoughout and thoughtful response and it is borne on the

backbone of your experience .

You well know my experience with the Peta invesitgation into cow

transportation in Calcutta and I state again that there is no way one can

drink milk in that city and be free of the ensuing responsibilty of the

consequent slaughter of the cow.

 

As a argument ,meat eater s often make the surplus cow point.

 

The point, as we all know, in both no's -- to meat and milk , is that there

will be less breeding.

Therefore people like my friends in PETA, that don't drink milk are doing

whatever they can in their capacity ( especially as urban people), to not

pereptuate this cruelty.

 

It may not be the best answer but at least its the most honest response to the

problem.

 

your servant,

 

Nirguna dasi

 

 

 

 

-

 

"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

 

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 10:30 pm

 

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

> Dear Prabhus,

>

> PAMHO. AGTSP.

>

> It is short sighted to say that not buying milk products from the

> slaughterhouse diary industry will accomplish nothing or that it

> will cause

> great harm. As Madhava Gosh stated, all the animals in the dairy

> industryare going to be slaughtered, it is just a matter of when.

> Eventually less

> animals will be bred to supply the lessening demand for dairy

> products. As

> far as the dairy farmers going into leather products on a long

> term basis;

> I think they will not be able to compete with the low prices of

> the biggest

> leather exporter in the world, India.

>

> Just because we can not have the ideal supported by ISKCON and the

> devotees, i.e. ox power agriculture, doesn't mean we can't take a

> standthat is less complicated and not difficult to institute-

> abstain from milk

> products from the commercial dairy as much as possible. At this

> point in

> the movement it has been long enough to say that since we don't

> have the

> ideal of ox power supported agriculture we need do nothing. That

> has been

> going on for more than 30 years.

>

> If one is worried about the image that devotees have due to taking

> someposition on cow protection; I can honestly tell you that we appear

> hypocritical and with no backbone because we do nothing concrete

> nor take

> any strong position. Lately, I have been contacted by several

> persons in

> PETA for various reasons. These people are vegans for ethical

> reasons. They

> do not have the perfect philosophy we do, but they are willing to

> commit to

> some abstinence, some austerities for the sake of a moral issue.

> On the

> other hand, most devotees take no action and just go on saying it

> won'tmake any difference whatever we do-just a drop in the bucket.

> And the

> devotees have the perfect philosophy about cow protection.

>

> In 1991 when we traveled with our oxen across the country we got

> to see

> first hand for the first time how this lack of position affects

> the public

> image of ISKCON and devotees. We were inundated with a supportive

> number of

> young people (in their twenties). It was a Festival Of India event and

> these people went around to look at the exhibits and talk to the

> devotees.They then came back to us and had some problems with what

> they saw. They

> asked us why were almost all the devotees wearing leather shoes

> (Burkenstocks) and where did the milk products in the prasadam

> come from.

> We could only point to our own shoes which were not leather and

> say that

> the movement was in a transition-moving away from supporting the

> leatherand dairy industries. That was now almost 13 years ago -

> devotees are still

> wearing leather and the farms have been decreased-protecting less

> cows, and

> commercial dairy products are used with the same excuses.

>

> Madhava Gosh and others have presented the theory of giving a

> percentage of

> the cost of dairy milk that is bought by a devotee to a cow protection

> program. It is a good idea, but has not taken root. Maybe it

> demands too

> much to do-i.e. figure the percentage, mail a check every month.

> Abstainingis simple. At least deceasing the amount of intake of

> commercial milk

> products. At least you won't appear as a hyprocrite to potential

> devoteeswho are inquiring. Or you can support outright your local

> cow protection

> program, finaincially, offerring labor, etc. Whatever you do, do

> somethingand don't go on saying it is allright to go on buying

> milk products from

> the dairy industry. That only perpetrates the hypocrisy. I have been

> initiated for 32 years and I have heard that position all of that

> time and

> in the meantime ISKCON cows have died due to neglect, some sold to

> slaughter and ox power has decreased not to mention even being

> consideredfor support by the whole movement.

>

> Any observer with any intelligence can see the hypocrisy. Any

> amount of so

> called kindness starts right here with having ACTIVE compassion

> for the

> most vulnerable being who has no voice, can't make any lawsuits-

> the cow. If

> we are not taking any ACTIVE position on cow protection any

> attempts at

> kindness to other humans will prove shallow and another hypocrisy.

>

> "The killing of cows by human society is one of the grossest suicidal

> policies, and those who are anxious to cultivate the human spirit

> must turn

> their attention first toward the question of cow protection."

> SB 10.5.7 Purport

>

> Your servant,

> Chayadevi

>

> Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

>

>

> > [Original Message]

> > Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> > <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and

> relatedissues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > 12/16/2003 9:50:03 AM

> > Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

> >

> >

> > > > That is so generic it is meaningless

> > >

> > > I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

> > >

> >

> > That's nice. Too bad you missed the point. anyone can spout

> generalities.> making them apply to the real world is another matter.

> >

> >

> > > Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and

> caring for

> > cows,

> > > and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise.

> (there is a

> > quote

> > > to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment).

> >

> > I am not talking about expounding. I am talking about doing.

> >

> > >Perhaps you have > not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot.

> >

> > Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being

> condescending, so let

> > me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

> >

> > The principle of protecting the weak was violated in regards to the

> > children in ISKCON, yes. As it also has been in regards to the

> cows. The

> > children have grown up, found their own voice and pushed past

> those who

> > minimized their condition. The cows have no voice, and there are

> those who

> > continue to minimize their condition.

> >

> > >Devotees are sometimes seen, by

> > > the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small

> picture which

> > causes

> > > perversions.

> >

> > The devotees are also perceived as being hypocrites for

> preaching about a

> > cow protector, Krsna, and not protecting cows themselves,

> drinking milk

> > produced in abominable circumstances.

> >

> > >but that

> > > people will want to follow those they see as living a life more

> idealistic

> > than

> > > they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible,

> again> happier,

> > > others will want what we have, including no intoxicants,

> meateating,etc.

> >

> > Again, these are such generalized statements no one can argue

> with them.

> If

> > everyone were kind to each other, we would have a peaceful

> society. Like

> > that. How to put it in practice?

> >

>

>

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> .

[Guest guest]

Nicely said Chaya devi.

 

Just read this over quickly, but one thing I noticed that would help me and

I'm sure others to take Active posturing. Is there a list of what dairies we

could buy from, since devotee milk is not marketed widely? Wellspring

groceries, I just noticed is even in Atlanta, do they carry dairy products that

would

meet the "protected" criteria??

 

Also it could be a good campaign to have "protected" milk in stores, and

seriously advertised as such. Perhaps even Peta would be interested in helping

 

devotees with this campaing. ALthough vegan, their prime interest is animal

protection, I believe.

In the long run I could see such a campaign benefitting groups such as ISCOWP

etc.

love eka

[Guest guest]

>Generally I am

> going for humor, more than condescendation, but as you have so beautifully

> pointed out, I do, often, fail miserably.

 

 

Dry humor plays better in person than in e mail.

 

>

> The practical aspects of caring is respect.

 

Respect for all living things. If we differentiate on who we respect, the

weakest inevitablely end up disrespected.

 

>Obviously you felt disrespected

> and felt a need to lash out.

 

That wasn't a lash out. When I lash out you will feel a true sting (just

kidding)

 

I am not opposed to using commercial milk products. But if you do, perform

an offsetting austerity, like contributing to a trust fund that could

subsidize ideas liek the ones you mention and others. If every devotee were

to do that, gradually a large and potent endowment would be raised so

someone committing to cow protection would not be isloated in grinding

poverty when all other devotees continue to reap benefits of modern life.

[Guest guest]

broad scale ox power would be very much appreciated if there were no fuels

for larger equipment. SInce this is not the case at this time, I do not see

the

whole world using oxen power in the near future. HOWEVER, working the oxen

can very, very much be seen as a noble, romantic, sincere endeavor by almost

anyone, even a meateater.

THe spirit behind it can be appreciated and respected on a broad scale. The

result of this is that people will think twice about what they are doing.

They will be respectful of our philosophy, and hopefully (ultimately) they will

 

be inclined to consider, if not take up vegetarianism. this of course leads to

 

higher consciousnes etc.

 

Material world is always tainted by imperfection. Noble endeavor is

perfection, the most perfection we can find here. Long story short, your

project is

perfection.

love eka

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhus

 

Some good news. The newly elected woman chief minister of state of Madhya

Pradesh has passed total ban on cow slaughter, and today another newly

elected chief minister of Chattisgarh state has done the same, both are

BJP party.

 

In Vedic culture milk was never to be sold, and as soon as the profit motive

comes in the abuse starts.In 10th Canto Ch 5 14 Srila Prabhupada

describes how the cowherd s threw butter on each other, that milk products

were so unlimited that they could be thrown without restriction. Today times

are hard.No one with a conscience can drink milk from slaughterhouse

dairies and Srila Prabhupada also tells us its the plan of the demons to

destroy human civilisation by killing cows and destroying brahminical

culture. So devotees need to see the danger they are in and get

together to save cows and bulls from the demons, and save human

civilisation too. Bhaktivedanta Manor has just bought 70 acres of land

for cow protection becos Srila Prabhupada asked them 30 yr s ago to get

150 cows and when they said that would mean 150 avres He asked them

what is the difficulty?Thanks to Dhananjaya he reminded them and they

collected something like a million+ pounds in a day. So it may seem

impossible but with Krsna anything is possible. So giving up on commercial

milk would mean the temples would have to keep farms and bring milk for

Deitiies at least from there as they couildnt stop that service I would

think.

You are right that vegans have to go further . and protect cows,

ys Labangalatika dd

-

billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

<gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>; <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection

and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:33 AM

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

 

> [This message was in HTML format]

>

> Dear Chayadevi,

>

> That was amazing... You are an abode of knowlege.... all glories to you...

>

> Dear Ekkabudh, If we beggin to advertise our cow and simple liiving

retreats, I

> think people will just take them as just that.... a puppet show......

Where is

> the seperatist... the strangers who live differently... in fact soo

different

> than the status quo- that it causes alarm for curiosity.... questions....

Why

> do you live like this....???? ( Like when prabhupada came and was dancing

in

> the park with new devotees in front of NY... distributing Krsna

Consiousness...

> not marketing.. and afraid of not fitting in or wearing a sheika in

public..)

> This is a non- profit deal... Questions:..... Then Answers... " We live

like

> this cause...." 21st century is christian time.. time is relavant, don't

be

> soo impressed with machines of this Kali age..They break very easily....

We

> don't need to baby the civilization to Krsna consiousness and cow

protection..

> We should first be interested ourselves to increase and the example will

be the

> preaching tool...

>

> Q.?

> ( What is it That drives these people...?) (devotees)...........

>

>

> The letter I wrote to Syam said different things and you took one on a

tangent

> which struck you... please read all... don't missunderstand... Here is a

letter

> from Prabhupada which is life.. there are deep meanings within even a

couple

> words.. please read many times...

> Hare Krsna..... Derek-

>

>

>

****************************************************************************

**

>

> SO FARMING MEANS-

>

> Lilavati: Srila Prabhupada? We were thinking that unless the African

people

>

> can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will

>

> chant while we are there and then they will forget.

>

> Prabhupada: Why don't you become an example yourself?

>

> Lilavati: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.

>

> Prabhupada: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than

>

> precept. [break]

>

> Jnana: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

>

> Prabhupada: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

>

> Jnana: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like

>

> that.

>

> Prabhupada: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be

>

> successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's

all.

>

> Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial

help

>

> from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat,

>

> vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six

items

>

> you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get

>

> money. Then it will be failure.

>

> Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying?

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter;

you

>

> must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first

>

> of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is

>

> needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be

>

> self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That

is

>

> wanted. Yavad-artha prayojanam. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati

siddhi-dah.

>

> You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not

eating

>

> too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is

absolutely

>

> necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material

>

> civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary.

Just

>

> like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So

>

> similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live

>

> simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage

>

> and have garden. You'll live very peacefully. But they're constructing

big,

>

> big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here

by

>

> car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is

>

> the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the

>

> village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is

>

> their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles'

>

> speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most

ludicrous

>

> civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New

>

> Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh

>

> vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk

>

> preparation, kachori, halava with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat

>

> sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare

>

> Krsna. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.

>

> Jnana: A nice program here.

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is

>

> money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?"

>

> Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog,

he

>

> is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?

>

> Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain

>

> always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your

civilization?

>

> Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like

>

> hog.

>

> Brahmananda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all

>

> nonsense things. This is their civilization.

>

> Jnana: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not

so...

>

> Prabhupada: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the

example

>

> and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other

>

> farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi,

>

> sandesa, rasagulla, rabri, so many, halava. They become: "Oh, so many nice

>

> things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the

>

> animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized,

>

> they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to

live

>

> very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply

>

> eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as

>

> civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te

>

> viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [sB 7.5.31]. Real civilization means to

>

> understand God. Here is God.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi

>

>

>

>

>

> >Dear Prabhus,

> >

> >PAMHO. AGTSP.

> >

> >It is short sighted to say that not buying milk products from the

> >slaughterhouse diary industry will accomplish nothing or that it will

cause

> >great harm. As Madhava Gosh stated, all the animals in the dairy industry

> >are going to be slaughtered, it is just a matter of when. Eventually less

> >animals will be bred to supply the lessening demand for dairy products.

As

> >far as the dairy farmers going into leather products on a long term

basis;

> >I think they will not be able to compete with the low prices of the

biggest

> >leather exporter in the world, India.

> >

> >Just because we can not have the ideal supported by ISKCON and the

> >devotees, i.e. ox power agriculture, doesn't mean we can't take a stand

> >that is less complicated and not difficult to institute-abstain from milk

> >products from the commercial dairy as much as possible. At this point in

> >the movement it has been long enough to say that since we don't have the

> >ideal of ox power supported agriculture we need do nothing. That has been

> >going on for more than 30 years.

> >

> >If one is worried about the image that devotees have due to taking some

> >position on cow protection; I can honestly tell you that we appear

> >hypocritical and with no backbone because we do nothing concrete nor take

> >any strong position. Lately, I have been contacted by several persons in

> >PETA for various reasons. These people are vegans for ethical reasons.

They

> >do not have the perfect philosophy we do, but they are willing to commit

to

> >some abstinence, some austerities for the sake of a moral issue. On the

> >other hand, most devotees take no action and just go on saying it won't

> >make any difference whatever we do-just a drop in the bucket. And the

> >devotees have the perfect philosophy about cow protection.

> >

> >In 1991 when we traveled with our oxen across the country we got to see

> >first hand for the first time how this lack of position affects the

public

> >image of ISKCON and devotees. We were inundated with a supportive number

of

> >young people (in their twenties). It was a Festival Of India event and

> >these people went around to look at the exhibits and talk to the

devotees.

> >They then came back to us and had some problems with what they saw. They

> >asked us why were almost all the devotees wearing leather shoes

> >(Burkenstocks) and where did the milk products in the prasadam come from.

> >We could only point to our own shoes which were not leather and say that

> >the movement was in a transition-moving away from supporting the leather

> >and dairy industries. That was now almost 13 years ago - devotees are

still

> >wearing leather and the farms have been decreased-protecting less cows,

and

> >commercial dairy products are used with the same excuses.

> >

> >Madhava Gosh and others have presented the theory of giving a percentage

of

> >the cost of dairy milk that is bought by a devotee to a cow protection

> >program. It is a good idea, but has not taken root. Maybe it demands too

> >much to do-i.e. figure the percentage, mail a check every month.

Abstaining

> >is simple. At least deceasing the amount of intake of commercial milk

> >products. At least you won't appear as a hyprocrite to potential devotees

> >who are inquiring. Or you can support outright your local cow protection

> >program, finaincially, offerring labor, etc. Whatever you do, do

something

> >and don't go on saying it is allright to go on buying milk products from

> >the dairy industry. That only perpetrates the hypocrisy. I have been

> >initiated for 32 years and I have heard that position all of that time

and

> >in the meantime ISKCON cows have died due to neglect, some sold to

> >slaughter and ox power has decreased not to mention even being considered

> >for support by the whole movement.

> >

> >Any observer with any intelligence can see the hypocrisy. Any amount of

so

> >called kindness starts right here with having ACTIVE compassion for the

> >most vulnerable being who has no voice, can't make any lawsuits-the cow.

If

> >we are not taking any ACTIVE position on cow protection any attempts at

> >kindness to other humans will prove shallow and another hypocrisy.

> >

> >"The killing of cows by human society is one of the grossest suicidal

> >policies, and those who are anxious to cultivate the human spirit must

turn

> >their attention first toward the question of cow protection."

> >SB 10.5.7 Purport

> >

> >Your servant,

> >Chayadevi

> >

> >Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> >

> >

> > > [Original Message]

> > > Mark Middle Mountain

> > > ; ; Cow (Protection and related

> >issues)

> > > 12/16/2003 9:50:03 AM

> > > Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

> > >

> > >

> > > > > That is so generic it is meaningless

> > > >

> > > > I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's nice. Too bad you missed the point. anyone can spout

generalities.

> > > making them apply to the real world is another matter.

> > >

> > >

> > > > Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and caring

for

> > > cows,

> > > > and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise. (there

is a

> > > quote

> > > > to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment).

> > >

> > > I am not talking about expounding. I am talking about doing.

> > >

> > > >Perhaps you have > not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot.

> > >

> > > Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so

let

> > > me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

> > >

> > > The principle of protecting the weak was violated in regards to the

> > > children in ISKCON, yes. As it also has been in regards to the cows.

The

> > > children have grown up, found their own voice and pushed past those

who

> > > minimized their condition. The cows have no voice, and there are those

who

> > > continue to minimize their condition.

> > >

> > > >Devotees are sometimes seen, by

> > > > the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small picture

which

> > > causes

> > > > perversions.

> > >

> > > The devotees are also perceived as being hypocrites for preaching

about a

> > > cow protector, Krsna, and not protecting cows themselves, drinking

milk

> > > produced in abominable circumstances.

> > >

> > > >but that

> > > > people will want to follow those they see as living a life more

> >idealistic

> > > than

> > > > they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible, again

> > > happier,

> > > > others will want what we have, including no intoxicants, meateating,

> >etc.

> > >

> > > Again, these are such generalized statements no one can argue with

them.

> >If

> > > everyone were kind to each other, we would have a peaceful society.

Like

> > > that. How to put it in practice?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >-----------------------

> >To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> >Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

> Grab our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. .

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Guest guest]

> [Original Message]

> <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

<gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related

issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 12/17/2003 1:10:04 PM

> Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

>

> Nicely said Chaya devi.

>

> Just read this over quickly, but one thing I noticed that would help me

and

> I'm sure others to take Active posturing. Is there a list of what

dairies we

> could buy from, since devotee milk is not marketed widely? Wellspring

> groceries, I just noticed is even in Atlanta, do they carry dairy

products that

> would

> meet the "protected" criteria??

 

No. Every organic milk business kills their cows when they do not produce

enough milk. The criteria of what is enough milk may not be as high as a

non-organic milk business but it is still there as otherwise they can not

do business with a profit.

>

> Also it could be a good campaign to have "protected" milk in stores, and

> seriously advertised as such. Perhaps even Peta would be interested in

helping

 

We have discussed before on this conference that for devotees to do such a

business would be difficult unless thoughtout thoroughly. Since no cow or

ox can be killed waht do you do with all the extra mouths that need to be

fed and cared for when you are breeding for milk? Pancaratna prabhu was

starting something in Alachua but we have not heard from him in a long

time.

>

> devotees with this campaing. ALthough vegan, their prime interest is

animal

> protection, I believe.

> In the long run I could see such a campaign benefitting groups such as

ISCOWP

> etc.

> love eka

[Guest guest]

It might be a good idea to "thought it out" with a really together group,

such as Peta?

 

They seem very professional, why not approach them for help. Doesn't have to

be done big scale to start at all. Simply where there are devotees with

cows, to start the marketing as milk coming from "protected" cows. It might

never

even be possible to get big, because as you said the practicality of ox-extra

mouths to feed is a problem difficult to surmount.

 

However just that the campaigning, and the extra awareness of where our

food comes from could lead people to vegetarianism. Or for those on this list

that were pro boycotting unprotected milk, this is where to start. People in

general just don't think about it. THere was a few years back an anti veal

campaign.

Showing those big brown, heavily eye-lashed baby veals makes people think.

I'm sure the veal industry suffered, at least for a time. So even small public

 

production can make impact, get the ball rolling.

[Guest guest]

Do you know what they will do with oxen??

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/17/03 11:05:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

 

 

> contributing to a trust fund that could

>

 

I'm sorry, I missed the email. I'm sitting here meditating on the "offset"

austerity for using commercial milk. For myself, I happen to be horrible at

mailing things. I have my own business and frankly just am averse to paper

work, etc. BUTTTTT I'm thinking what would make this contribution easier?

Perhaps at Sunday feasts a can with a cow on it -collection fund??? Temples do

 

generally use commercial milk. Perhaps they could be taught that this

offsetting

were necessary. Have them collect and send funds to Iscowp. This of course

would be more enthusiastically recieved if there were some concrete (devotees

generally like big, glossy, "good public relations" as Anuttama would say)

already in progress, plan. Such as using Balabadra as a training center.

 

Of course TP's across the country are cringing now at the thought vibration

of one more chore to do. But we could get devotee volunteers at some of the

bigger temples at least to help out. Oops, they might consider it competition?

 

So it would be small scale. If 50 people at a Sunday feast drop a quarter in

the can, times a lot of temples, x extra on holiday, times some will drop a

whole lot more.......It could be a start. The point is making it easy to

donate.

[Guest guest]

> Simply where there are devotees with

> cows, to start the marketing as milk coming from "protected" cows.

 

You realize protected milk is going to be 4 or 5 times greater cost than

commercial milk.

[Guest guest]

[This message was in HTML format]

 

great idea

 

Love

 

Nirguna

 

 

-

 

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com

 

Saturday, December 20, 2003 7:10 am

 

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

> In a message dated 12/17/03 11:05:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

>

>

> > contributing to a trust fund that could

> >

>

> I'm sorry, I missed the email. I'm sitting here meditating on the

> "offset"

> austerity for using commercial milk. For myself, I happen to be

> horrible at

> mailing things. I have my own business and frankly just am averse

> to paper

> work, etc. BUTTTTT I'm thinking what would make this

> contribution easier?

> Perhaps at Sunday feasts a can with a cow on it -collection

> fund??? Temples do

>

> generally use commercial milk. Perhaps they could be taught that this

> offsetting

> were necessary. Have them collect and send funds to Iscowp. This

> of course

> would be more enthusiastically recieved if there were some

> concrete (devotees

> generally like big, glossy, "good public relations" as Anuttama

> would say)

> already in progress, plan. Such as using Balabadra as a training

> center.

>

> Of course TP's across the country are cringing now at the thought

> vibration

> of one more chore to do. But we could get devotee volunteers at

> some of the

> bigger temples at least to help out. Oops, they might consider it

> competition?

> So it would be small scale. If 50 people at a Sunday feast drop a

> quarter in

> the can, times a lot of temples, x extra on holiday, times some

> will drop a

> whole lot more.......It could be a start. The point is making it

> easy to

> donate.

>

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> .

[Guest guest]

Hari bol!

 

I am trying to catch-up, lot of material to read on. ' About throwing

butter on each other and milk products unrestrictedly'. As I am involved in

the betterment of land on one of the worst plots, I have used and heard of

the advantageous of Milk and milk products on the soil microbes. If one can

maintain moisture on the ground, these can do wonders to help build soil

fertility. In fact one of the scientist in India has isolated a bacteria

from ' indigenous cow milk' and has even applied for patent. It works

wonder on field crops. He says they are not present in the milk of

cross-breeds.

 

So I guess in Vedic times a lot of milk products found its way to the land

and returned in the form of good harvest. So we could also put them on to

land and take better yields that way it would also be more profitable than

selling milk. One option!!!

 

Y/s Jai Chaitanya das,

Hare Krishna Nature Farm,

Mysore.

 

 

 

Rosalie Malik [labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net]

Friday, December 19, 2003 4:17 PM

billy bob buckwheat; gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com; Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com;

doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

 

Dear Prabhus

 

Some good news. The newly elected woman chief minister of state of Madhya

Pradesh has passed total ban on cow slaughter, and today another newly

elected chief minister of Chattisgarh state has done the same, both are

BJP party.

 

In Vedic culture milk was never to be sold, and as soon as the profit motive

comes in the abuse starts.In 10th Canto Ch 5 14 Srila Prabhupada

describes how the cowherd s threw butter on each other, that milk products

were so unlimited that they could be thrown without restriction. Today times

are hard.No one with a conscience can drink milk from slaughterhouse

dairies and Srila Prabhupada also tells us its the plan of the demons to

destroy human civilisation by killing cows and destroying brahminical

culture. So devotees need to see the danger they are in and get

together to save cows and bulls from the demons, and save human

civilisation too. Bhaktivedanta Manor has just bought 70 acres of land

for cow protection becos Srila Prabhupada asked them 30 yr s ago to get

150 cows and when they said that would mean 150 avres He asked them

what is the difficulty?Thanks to Dhananjaya he reminded them and they

collected something like a million+ pounds in a day. So it may seem

impossible but with Krsna anything is possible. So giving up on commercial

milk would mean the temples would have to keep farms and bring milk for

Deitiies at least from there as they couildnt stop that service I would

think.

You are right that vegans have to go further . and protect cows,

ys Labangalatika dd

-

billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

<gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>; <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection

and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:33 AM

Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

 

 

> [This message was in HTML format]

>

> Dear Chayadevi,

>

> That was amazing... You are an abode of knowlege.... all glories to you...

>

> Dear Ekkabudh, If we beggin to advertise our cow and simple liiving

retreats, I

> think people will just take them as just that.... a puppet show......

Where is

> the seperatist... the strangers who live differently... in fact soo

different

> than the status quo- that it causes alarm for curiosity.... questions....

Why

> do you live like this....???? ( Like when prabhupada came and was dancing

in

> the park with new devotees in front of NY... distributing Krsna

Consiousness...

> not marketing.. and afraid of not fitting in or wearing a sheika in

public..)

> This is a non- profit deal... Questions:..... Then Answers... " We live

like

> this cause...." 21st century is christian time.. time is relavant, don't

be

> soo impressed with machines of this Kali age..They break very easily....

We

> don't need to baby the civilization to Krsna consiousness and cow

protection..

> We should first be interested ourselves to increase and the example will

be the

> preaching tool...

>

> Q.?

> ( What is it That drives these people...?) (devotees)...........

>

>

> The letter I wrote to Syam said different things and you took one on a

tangent

> which struck you... please read all... don't missunderstand... Here is a

letter

> from Prabhupada which is life.. there are deep meanings within even a

couple

> words.. please read many times...

> Hare Krsna..... Derek-

>

>

>

****************************************************************************

**

>

> SO FARMING MEANS-

>

> Lilavati: Srila Prabhupada? We were thinking that unless the African

people

>

> can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will

>

> chant while we are there and then they will forget.

>

> Prabhupada: Why don't you become an example yourself?

>

> Lilavati: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.

>

> Prabhupada: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than

>

> precept. [break]

>

> Jnana: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

>

> Prabhupada: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

>

> Jnana: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like

>

> that.

>

> Prabhupada: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be

>

> successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's

all.

>

> Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial

help

>

> from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat,

>

> vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six

items

>

> you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get

>

> money. Then it will be failure.

>

> Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying?

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter;

you

>

> must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first

>

> of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is

>

> needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be

>

> self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That

is

>

> wanted. Yavad-artha prayojanam. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati

siddhi-dah.

>

> You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not

eating

>

> too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is

absolutely

>

> necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material

>

> civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary.

Just

>

> like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So

>

> similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live

>

> simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage

>

> and have garden. You'll live very peacefully. But they're constructing

big,

>

> big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here

by

>

> car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is

>

> the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the

>

> village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is

>

> their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles'

>

> speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most

ludicrous

>

> civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New

>

> Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh

>

> vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk

>

> preparation, kachori, halava with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat

>

> sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare

>

> Krsna. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.

>

> Jnana: A nice program here.

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is

>

> money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?"

>

> Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog,

he

>

> is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?

>

> Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain

>

> always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your

civilization?

>

> Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like

>

> hog.

>

> Brahmananda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all

>

> nonsense things. This is their civilization.

>

> Jnana: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not

so...

>

> Prabhupada: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the

example

>

> and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other

>

> farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi,

>

> sandesa, rasagulla, rabri, so many, halava. They become: "Oh, so many nice

>

> things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the

>

> animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized,

>

> they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to

live

>

> very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply

>

> eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as

>

> civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te

>

> viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [sB 7.5.31]. Real civilization means to

>

> understand God. Here is God.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi

>

>

>

>

>

> >Dear Prabhus,

> >

> >PAMHO. AGTSP.

> >

> >It is short sighted to say that not buying milk products from the

> >slaughterhouse diary industry will accomplish nothing or that it will

cause

> >great harm. As Madhava Gosh stated, all the animals in the dairy industry

> >are going to be slaughtered, it is just a matter of when. Eventually less

> >animals will be bred to supply the lessening demand for dairy products.

As

> >far as the dairy farmers going into leather products on a long term

basis;

> >I think they will not be able to compete with the low prices of the

biggest

> >leather exporter in the world, India.

> >

> >Just because we can not have the ideal supported by ISKCON and the

> >devotees, i.e. ox power agriculture, doesn't mean we can't take a stand

> >that is less complicated and not difficult to institute-abstain from milk

> >products from the commercial dairy as much as possible. At this point in

> >the movement it has been long enough to say that since we don't have the

> >ideal of ox power supported agriculture we need do nothing. That has been

> >going on for more than 30 years.

> >

> >If one is worried about the image that devotees have due to taking some

> >position on cow protection; I can honestly tell you that we appear

> >hypocritical and with no backbone because we do nothing concrete nor take

> >any strong position. Lately, I have been contacted by several persons in

> >PETA for various reasons. These people are vegans for ethical reasons.

They

> >do not have the perfect philosophy we do, but they are willing to commit

to

> >some abstinence, some austerities for the sake of a moral issue. On the

> >other hand, most devotees take no action and just go on saying it won't

> >make any difference whatever we do-just a drop in the bucket. And the

> >devotees have the perfect philosophy about cow protection.

> >

> >In 1991 when we traveled with our oxen across the country we got to see

> >first hand for the first time how this lack of position affects the

public

> >image of ISKCON and devotees. We were inundated with a supportive number

of

> >young people (in their twenties). It was a Festival Of India event and

> >these people went around to look at the exhibits and talk to the

devotees.

> >They then came back to us and had some problems with what they saw. They

> >asked us why were almost all the devotees wearing leather shoes

> >(Burkenstocks) and where did the milk products in the prasadam come from.

> >We could only point to our own shoes which were not leather and say that

> >the movement was in a transition-moving away from supporting the leather

> >and dairy industries. That was now almost 13 years ago - devotees are

still

> >wearing leather and the farms have been decreased-protecting less cows,

and

> >commercial dairy products are used with the same excuses.

> >

> >Madhava Gosh and others have presented the theory of giving a percentage

of

> >the cost of dairy milk that is bought by a devotee to a cow protection

> >program. It is a good idea, but has not taken root. Maybe it demands too

> >much to do-i.e. figure the percentage, mail a check every month.

Abstaining

> >is simple. At least deceasing the amount of intake of commercial milk

> >products. At least you won't appear as a hyprocrite to potential devotees

> >who are inquiring. Or you can support outright your local cow protection

> >program, finaincially, offerring labor, etc. Whatever you do, do

something

> >and don't go on saying it is allright to go on buying milk products from

> >the dairy industry. That only perpetrates the hypocrisy. I have been

> >initiated for 32 years and I have heard that position all of that time

and

> >in the meantime ISKCON cows have died due to neglect, some sold to

> >slaughter and ox power has decreased not to mention even being considered

> >for support by the whole movement.

> >

> >Any observer with any intelligence can see the hypocrisy. Any amount of

so

> >called kindness starts right here with having ACTIVE compassion for the

> >most vulnerable being who has no voice, can't make any lawsuits-the cow.

If

> >we are not taking any ACTIVE position on cow protection any attempts at

> >kindness to other humans will prove shallow and another hypocrisy.

> >

> >"The killing of cows by human society is one of the grossest suicidal

> >policies, and those who are anxious to cultivate the human spirit must

turn

> >their attention first toward the question of cow protection."

> >SB 10.5.7 Purport

> >

> >Your servant,

> >Chayadevi

> >

> >Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> >

> >

> > > [Original Message]

> > > Mark Middle Mountain

> > > ; ; Cow (Protection and related

> >issues)

> > > 12/16/2003 9:50:03 AM

> > > Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

> > >

> > >

> > > > > That is so generic it is meaningless

> > > >

> > > > I just loved the above statement. Made me laugh.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's nice. Too bad you missed the point. anyone can spout

generalities.

> > > making them apply to the real world is another matter.

> > >

> > >

> > > > Same is sometimes percieved in public. To expound love and caring

for

> > > cows,

> > > > and not extend it to people, might cause eyebrows to raise. (there

is a

> > > quote

> > > > to this afffect, not at my braintip at the moment).

> > >

> > > I am not talking about expounding. I am talking about doing.

> > >

> > > >Perhaps you have > not heard, but there is a large lawsuit afoot.

> > >

> > > Frankly, you are not bright enough to pull off being condescending, so

let

> > > me advise you to skip that tactic in the future.

> > >

> > > The principle of protecting the weak was violated in regards to the

> > > children in ISKCON, yes. As it also has been in regards to the cows.

The

> > > children have grown up, found their own voice and pushed past those

who

> > > minimized their condition. The cows have no voice, and there are those

who

> > > continue to minimize their condition.

> > >

> > > >Devotees are sometimes seen, by

> > > > the public as seperatest, fanatics, focused on the small picture

which

> > > causes

> > > > perversions.

> > >

> > > The devotees are also perceived as being hypocrites for preaching

about a

> > > cow protector, Krsna, and not protecting cows themselves, drinking

milk

> > > produced in abominable circumstances.

> > >

> > > >but that

> > > > people will want to follow those they see as living a life more

> >idealistic

> > > than

> > > > they are. If we are truly happier, more honest, responsible, again

> > > happier,

> > > > others will want what we have, including no intoxicants, meateating,

> >etc.

> > >

> > > Again, these are such generalized statements no one can argue with

them.

> >If

> > > everyone were kind to each other, we would have a peaceful society.

Like

> > > that. How to put it in practice?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >-----------------------

> >To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> >Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

> Grab our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. .

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Guest guest]

Dear Labangalatika Prabhu,

 

Hare Krishna.

 

>In Vedic culture milk was never to be sold, and as soon as the profit

>motive

>comes in the abuse starts

 

I was wondering on what basis you asertained that in the vedic culture milk

was not sold?

 

ys syamasundar dasa

Bhaktivedanta Manor

[Guest guest]

> I have used and heard of

> the advantageous of Milk and milk products on the soil microbes. If one

can

> maintain moisture on the ground, these can do wonders to help build soil

> fertility.

 

I know where cheese factories return whey to the earth it is a wonderful

fertilizer.