Guest guest Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Most wonderful quotes from Hrimati, thank you. I do feel the need to address d_4h's suggestion that one pray for the failure of a godbrother or sisters endeavors. I do note that he asks that "we see the ideal and not any offense", which I greatly appreciate. I respect that he has strong views/ideals, this is most definitely a great quality. What does concern me is that we, as devotees, support each other, in all our common goals, and also learn to respect that others might not be able to measure up to our standards, in our view. This does not mean that others are not just as sincerely endeavoring to please Srila Prabhupada, Krishna, or to help their godbrothers to do the same. "This is the difference between a devotee and a nondevotee. For a nondevotee, the world is full of problems, whereas for a devotee the entire world is full of happiness" Everyone, even the demon is in some way or other cultivating Krishna conciousness. Prabhupada states that .."Kamsa, of course, was also Krishna conscious, but because he regarded Krishna as his enemy....consciousness was not favorable for his existence." SB10.ch2) So if even the enemy of Krishna is to be seen as acting in Krishna conciousness, then what to speak of our godbrothers? I would respectfully ask d_4 to consider this.....always stand up for what you believe in, be firm, make your point known. But kindly understand that others might be attempting the same, with the same sincerity. This should be respected by both sides. Consider that to wish failure for another devotee is not kind, not compassionate. Someone elses endeavor need not be a threat to our endeavors, unless they are directly trying to foil our attempts. Then we should take a stand, ask Krishna for help. But I do not believe it would make Prabhupada happy that we pray for the failure of another devotees endeavor. obiesances ekaBuddhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Dear Syamasundara prabhu Haribol. I got in touch with my source of this info, a lawyer RK Joshi of Viniyog Parivar Trust, animal rights org whose activists rescue thousands of cattle from slaughter. He couldnt give me scriptural ref but he states that tradition and cherished social values have the same force as sastra. Up to 200 yrs ago cows as sacred beings were never sold, only donated, and their milk religious likewise was never sold but freely distributed. Cows and milk were not seen as commodities. The cattle traders raised bullocks and sold them to farmers for work. Every day surplus milk was made into dahi(yogurt) and then made into butter and ghee. Buttermilk was freely distributed , but ghee was sold, and was famous as the white gold of India.. So it isnt just Vedic. Its recent history. The Brits started killing of cows to feed their armies. Even the Muslims never did that previously but under their rule too cows were protected. Now production of beef and veal is going up in India (seen in Business India March 2003) 1996 2003 Production : 925 1920 Consumption: 721 1500 Exports : 204 420 ( 1000 tons) Bullocks are the main victims. ys Labangalatika dasi : - Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK) <Syamasundara (AT) pamho (DOT) net> billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>; <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>; <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:23 PM Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? , > > Hare Krishna. > > >In Vedic culture milk was never to be sold, and as soon as the profit > >motive > >comes in the abuse starts > > I was wondering on what basis you asertained that in the vedic culture milk > was not sold? > > ys syamasundar dasa > Bhaktivedanta Manor > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email to: > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 In a message dated 12/27/03 10:31:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net writes: > butter and ghee. Buttermilk was freely distributed , but ghee was sold, > and > was famous as the white gold of India.. thank you, this information was very interesting, especially the part about the muslims being respectful of cow protection. This also brings up the point that I have been trying (very poorly) to get across. That is this, what all the experts are saying is that there is no profit in milk, nor should there be. What I have been wanting to emphasize is the possibility of making cowherd life sustainable by making things out of the milk. The cow as mother produces milk. If we do not use her milk, distribute it, we are being miserly. Milk from protected cows is special. I remember years ago 28?? the milk from the Gita Nagari farm was winning awards for the most cream etc. Because the cows were loved, I always assumed. Cottage industry does not imply big mass production. It implies family, community, tended with loving care, business. Production is only at the level that nature provides. No overendeavor. This type of thing is greatly respected and appreciated in some circles. If devotees are to be inspired to seriously take up the owning of cows it will have to be in a way that does not entail undue hardship. Everyone has their cow. Well tended these cows produce more milk than the family can use. They can, or can give the extra milk to someone, for the making of products that would be distributed as prasadam. We should not only be thinking to have protected milk for our survival, but to share the karmic benefits with others. obeisances ekaBuddhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 In a message dated 12/28/2003 8:20:23 AM Central Standard Time, Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com writes: >Well tended these cows produce more milk than the >family >can use. They can, or can give the extra milk to someone, for the making of >products that would be distributed as prasadam. This is absolutely a fact. When I was living in New Vrindavan, I had my own cow (Ekadasi). She was a little Jersey whom we bought from a heard that was sold entirely for slaughter because the farmer could not afford to stay in the dairy business (each of those cows was giving something like 30 lbs a day at the time of slaughter). He singled Ekadasi out for survival because she was pregnant and he felt some compassion. (I was later critizised [perhaps rightly so] for buying another cow when NV had so many--Oh well). Anyway, after three years, she was still giving over a gallon of milk each day. This is more than one family can (or should) use. The result was that our freezer (sadly) was full of massive balls of golden butter that were waiting to be made into ghee. Our cabinet was also full of 1qt Ball jars of ghee. And we gave this ghee and butter to anyone we could think of any chace we got. We also gave some to the temple for Radha Vrindavan Chandra. This again was from one little Jersey cow--after three years of loving care. Each morning I would feed her grains, brush her, massage her and tell her how beautiful she looked (this is actually an important factor--to talk to them sweetly). We would listen to a cassette of Mother Yamini singing Krishna pastimes in English (English because Ekadasi was once a 'karmi' cow and cold not understand the Bengali bhajanas). Ekadasi's calf (Dvadasi) was always nearby watching her mother and when the milking was finished they would go out to pasture and play. We would also sell the excess milk (as Srila Prabhupada indicated we should) to devotees. Several would, in fact, pay no less then $10 per gallon on their own initiative. One couple, who came from India with their young daughter, would drive from Pittsburgh, PA each week to get two gallons because their daughter had an allergic reaction to American Milk (the doctor said she was allergic to all milk but it turns out she was allergic to antibiotics, or perhaps unseen stress hormones that were absent in Ekadasi's milk). There is no doubt that when a cow is satisfied, she defies the common rules for dairy cows--as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times, a cow gives its milk out of love and affection. Once Dvadasi was bigger, Ekadasi would no longer let her nurse--she would kick her away, but when I came into the barn with my brush and a bucket of grain, at the same time each day, and press play on the cassette player, the milk would begin to flow from her utters. Half way through milking, with the bucket tossed across the stall, she would often fall asleep with her head in the trough and her legs would begin to buckle and she would jerk herself awake again (like japa time). Sadly, I had to leave that situation, but before I left, I offered my apologies to that cow out of respect--that cow, unlike my biological mother, taught me what a motherly relationship is about. Cows are certainly our mothers, (or are willing to be), and when you take the time to treat them as such, they offer their love in return, and they offer whatever they have (milk, manure and more love) in return, in reciprocation. This was not an amazing cow, she was just a satisfied cow, a mother cow that, out of love, adopted a human boy--I believe most cows are willing to do the same. Just thought I would share. YS-Gopal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 >Prabhupäda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. hmm. Srila Prabhupada was always perfectly logical and practical. Although he was the purest devotee on the planet and basically wrote the rules which we attampt to live by, he was in no way a fanatic. He was always practical. This is not that we endeavor to make so many pregnant cows and so much milk to sell, but if the cows are there and the milk is there, of course, we can sell it. I think the point is that is must be managed properly with the long term always formost in mind. Like Madhava Ghosh and others have been pointing out for years, the prime initiative must be to see that the cows, bulls and land are not neglected or even alowed to be seen as a burden, should the milk cease to flow. They (land included) must have a retirement fund funded from and by the first drop of milk or first crop to the last. This is something that was also going to be incorperated into the CSA in Alachua, if I remember correctly. I have not spoken with Pancaratna prabhu in a long while, but the focus was also not primarily on the milk production--that was to be there, but it was mostly on vegetable production--which was eventually (and this may be the trouble) going to be turned over to trained ox teams. The trouble is that, seldom in histroy (exception is Cuba) have poeple completely given up on machines once they are estabhished on the land. -Gopal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] This is good stuff Gopal... I'm happy you shared this.. I also have some similar stories... You have the exact and proper by all means.... and most of all compassion and love.... I bow down to you..... again and again..... Its only sad that you had to leave....... ys, Derek- >This is absolutely a fact. When I was living in New Vrindavan, I had my own >cow (Ekadasi). She was a little Jersey whom we bought from a heard that was >sold entirely for slaughter because the farmer could not afford to stay in the >dairy business (each of those cows was giving something like 30 lbs a day at the >time of slaughter). He singled Ekadasi out for survival because she was >pregnant and he felt some compassion. (I was later critizised [perhaps rightly so] >for buying another cow when NV had so many--Oh well). > >Anyway, after three years, she was still giving over a gallon of milk each >day. This is more than one family can (or should) use. The result was that our >freezer (sadly) was full of massive balls of golden butter that were waiting to >be made into ghee. Our cabinet was also full of 1qt Ball jars of ghee. And we >gave this ghee and butter to anyone we could think of any chace we got. We >also gave some to the temple for Radha Vrindavan Chandra. This again was from >one little Jersey cow--after three years of loving care. > >Each morning I would feed her grains, brush her, massage her and tell her how >beautiful she looked (this is actually an important factor--to talk to them >sweetly). We would listen to a cassette of Mother Yamini singing Krishna >pastimes in English (English because Ekadasi was once a 'karmi' cow and cold not >understand the Bengali bhajanas). Ekadasi's calf (Dvadasi) was always nearby >watching her mother and when the milking was finished they would go out to pasture >and play. > >We would also sell the excess milk (as Srila Prabhupada indicated we should) >to devotees. Several would, in fact, pay no less then $10 per gallon on their >own initiative. One couple, who came from India with their young daughter, >would drive from Pittsburgh, PA each week to get two gallons because their >daughter had an allergic reaction to American Milk (the doctor said she was allergic >to all milk but it turns out she was allergic to antibiotics, or perhaps >unseen stress hormones that were absent in Ekadasi's milk). > >There is no doubt that when a cow is satisfied, she defies the common rules >for dairy cows--as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times, a cow gives its milk >out of love and affection. Once Dvadasi was bigger, Ekadasi would no longer >let her nurse--she would kick her away, but when I came into the barn with my >brush and a bucket of grain, at the same time each day, and press play on the >cassette player, the milk would begin to flow from her utters. Half way through >milking, with the bucket tossed across the stall, she would often fall asleep >with her head in the trough and her legs would begin to buckle and she would >jerk herself awake again (like japa time). > >Sadly, I had to leave that situation, but before I left, I offered my >apologies to that cow out of respect--that cow, unlike my biological mother, taught >me what a motherly relationship is about. Cows are certainly our mothers, (or >are willing to be), and when you take the time to treat them as such, they >offer their love in return, and they offer whatever they have (milk, manure and >more love) in return, in reciprocation. > >This was not an amazing cow, she was just a satisfied cow, a mother cow that, >out of love, adopted a human boy--I believe most cows are willing to do the >same. > >Just thought I would share. >YS-Gopal Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] > >Prabhupäda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. > > >hmm. Srila Prabhupada was always perfectly logical and practical. Although he >was the purest devotee on the planet and basically wrote the rules which we >attampt to live by, he was in no way a fanatic. He was always practical. I'm sorry Gopal, but I felt Prabhupada as a fanatic..... and when I look in my dictionary it says... (fanatic-- inspired by a deity : Marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.) I don't think of fanatic as something bad... As has some have made it. >This is not that we endeavor to make so many pregnant cows and so much milk >to sell, but if the cows are there and the milk is there, of course, we can >sell it. > Exactly................ Hare Krsna Gopal,.... ys, Derek- > Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access — limited time only! Get dial-up Internet access now with our best offer: 6 months @$9.95/month!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to take on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave this mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Thank you, JCD Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com [Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com] Friday, December 26, 2003 8:37 PM Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN); d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com; labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net; gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com; doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net; Cow (Protection and related issues) Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? Most wonderful quotes from Hrimati, thank you. I do feel the need to address d_4h's suggestion that one pray for the failure of a godbrother or sisters endeavors. I do note that he asks that "we see the ideal and not any offense", which I greatly appreciate. I respect that he has strong views/ideals, this is most definitely a great quality. What does concern me is that we, as devotees, support each other, in all our common goals, and also learn to respect that others might not be able to measure up to our standards, in our view. This does not mean that others are not just as sincerely endeavoring to please Srila Prabhupada, Krishna, or to help their godbrothers to do the same. "This is the difference between a devotee and a nondevotee. For a nondevotee, the world is full of problems, whereas for a devotee the entire world is full of happiness" Everyone, even the demon is in some way or other cultivating Krishna conciousness. Prabhupada states that .."Kamsa, of course, was also Krishna conscious, but because he regarded Krishna as his enemy....consciousness was not favorable for his existence." SB10.ch2) So if even the enemy of Krishna is to be seen as acting in Krishna conciousness, then what to speak of our godbrothers? I would respectfully ask d_4 to consider this.....always stand up for what you believe in, be firm, make your point known. But kindly understand that others might be attempting the same, with the same sincerity. This should be respected by both sides. Consider that to wish failure for another devotee is not kind, not compassionate. Someone elses endeavor need not be a threat to our endeavors, unless they are directly trying to foil our attempts. Then we should take a stand, ask Krishna for help. But I do not believe it would make Prabhupada happy that we pray for the failure of another devotees endeavor. obiesances ekaBuddhi ----------------------- To from this mailing list, send an email to: Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 > Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to take > on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave this > mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she > reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka > They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 In a message dated 12/29/03 10:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes: > he left I had considered the down side. I've heard many horror stories about starving cows in Iskcon. I opted to paint the side of the cow saved from doom. So the question is "how to keep them down on the farm"? This having cows and then leaving them is an ongoing scenario. A friend has just left theirs. many devotees give up. It might be practical for the cow conference to ask those that left, what could have been different, for them to stay with that lifestyle. Of course many times it is marital breakups, from what I have seen. But if Iskcon wants to see widespread responsiblity of cow ownership, than it must be a well rounded course of action and response addressing personal, financial, emotional etc. concerns. obeisances eka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Mark Middle Mountain wrote: > > >>Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to >> >> >take > > >>on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave >> >> >this > > >>mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she >>reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka >> >> >> > >They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of >maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is >flowing. > > If it is true that he ended up palming the cow off on the temple in the end, then I'm afraid I must agree with the assessment that he should never have taken the cow in the first place -- especially not when he was sufficiently warned against making that commitment in the first place. It is always condemnable to take on the responsibility for keeping a cow when you are not going to be able to maintain it in the long run. ys hkdd > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Probably, the first thing is that any member of the Hare Krsna movement who wants to own a cow should read the Minimum Cow Protection Standards on the ISCOWP website. I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even bother to do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an sentimental atheist. No one would ever think of installing some Deities without studying the proper procedures for maintaining them. They would never dare to install Deities based on sentiment alone. But when it comes to "installing" Krsna's cows in one's home, too many devotees believe that an idealistic sentiment is enough. Clearly it is not enough. ys hkdd Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: >In a message dated 12/29/03 10:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, >gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes: > > > > >>he left >> >> > >I had considered the down side. I've heard many horror stories about >starving cows in Iskcon. I opted to paint the side of the cow saved from doom. >So >the question is "how to keep them down on the farm"? This having cows and then > >leaving them is an ongoing scenario. A friend has just left theirs. many >devotees give up. It might be practical for the cow conference to ask those >that left, what could have been different, for them to stay with that >lifestyle. > Of course many times it is marital breakups, from what I have seen. But if >Iskcon wants to see widespread responsiblity of cow ownership, than it must be >a well rounded course of action and response addressing personal, financial, >emotional etc. concerns. obeisances eka > > >----------------------- >To from this mailing list, send an email to: >Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them. At the time, they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they were going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself. Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting temple cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside of this conference. For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically) from a temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was not the one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn). In a message dated 12/29/2003 9:40:43 AM Central Standard Time, gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes: They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 > You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a > temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them. You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now. >At the time, > they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they were > going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself. No comment :-) > > Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting temple > cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside of this > > conference. > I hope you don't think the replies too harsh. You were brave to even bring it up. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The important thing is to try and stop the pattern from endlessly repeating itself, and you could do good service to be a voice of caution to the seemingly endless line of romantic agrarianists who think they can pull it off and still sell milk relatively cheaply. I can all but guarantuee that the person selling milk in GN at $3 a gallon is putting zero aside for future maintanence of the cow and its calf, and once the milk is gone, those who bought it will feel no responsibility to help. I think someone like Pandu who has that understanding, it would be better to just pay the $3 to the milker, and put the balance into a trust fund with the cow as a beneficiary. Of course, on such a small scale, fees may make it infeasible to do so, but if 50 or a 100 were paying the surplus into a fund, it would be significant. And it could and should be thousnads doing so, if everyone buying mainstream milk would pay a little extra into it. > For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically) from a > temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was not > the > one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn). Are you removed enough from the situation emotionally by now that I could laugh at you about all that, and your feelings wouldn't be hurt? :-) Incidentally, nice to hear from you, it's been a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 > You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now. Yes this is true. We are open to almost any kind of contribution to Ekadasi's upkeep. at the www.iscowp.org site click the Adopt A Cow Today button and learn all about it. It is stated there that different sponsorship programs can be arranged just get in contact with iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net Ekadasi can also be viewed there at the end of the list. The picture was taken this year in the spring. Visit us at: www.iscowp.org > [Original Message] > Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> > <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > 12/30/2003 5:10:04 PM > Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? > > > > > > > You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a > > temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them. > > You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now. > > >At the time, > > they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they > were > > going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself. > > No comment :-) > > > > > Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting temple > > cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside of > this > > > > conference. > > > > I hope you don't think the replies too harsh. You were brave to even bring > it up. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The > important thing is to try and stop the pattern from endlessly repeating > itself, and you could do good service to be a voice of caution to the > seemingly endless line of romantic agrarianists who think they can pull it > off and still sell milk relatively cheaply. I can all but guarantuee that > the person selling milk in GN at $3 a gallon is putting zero aside for > future maintanence of the cow and its calf, and once the milk is gone, those > who bought it will feel no responsibility to help. > > I think someone like Pandu who has that understanding, it would be better to > just pay the $3 to the milker, and put the balance into a trust fund with > the cow as a beneficiary. Of course, on such a small scale, fees may make it > infeasible to do so, but if 50 or a 100 were paying the surplus into a > fund, it would be significant. And it could and should be thousnads doing > so, if everyone buying mainstream milk would pay a little extra into it. > > > > > For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically) from a > > temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was > not > > the > > one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn). > > Are you removed enough from the situation emotionally by now that I could > laugh at you about all that, and your feelings wouldn't be hurt? :-) > Incidentally, nice to hear from you, it's been a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 > > I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even bother to > do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an > sentimental atheist. Wow...I thought we are not going to call each other names any more. He was doing nice service to his cow and saved her from the Slaughterhouse. Please give him credit for that. Y.s. Hrimati dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I saw the picture of Ekadasi and must admit that she is still as beautiful as ever. After paying my rent this month, I will have about $75.00 in the bank; If anyone wants to adopt a cowherd family... I am going for a promotion at my work and will know the results in January. After that we will certainly consider giving what ever we can for her upkeep. Again, I had know idea that she was given to the general heard. As Ghosh, (whom I consider my as my affectionate father or uncle) pointed out, this is a very important matter (taking a personal cow as a grhasta). Although I was trying to point out how a mother cow gives her milk out of affection to her maintainer, Ghosh has brought up a very important point; that of maintaining a personal cow after the milk is gone. It has also presented a key issue as presented by Ekabuddhi prabhu; how one's financial situation and personal relationships effect cow protection as an occupation or full time service. I can tell you all right now that if I could find a place that would support my wife, son, and self, (in a realistic, sustainable situation) I would be hole heatedly committed to that project. And I could find many other like myself. What I've noticed is that in grhasta life, the cow protection failures basically mirror the failures of the various communities as a whole. There is mistrust, un-honored trust or an immature expectation of how things will be or self imposed blindness to how things really are; people leave. People cannot afford to maintain the situations they enter and/or they get fried due to the interpersonal conflicts that arise within the strain. There is a lack of training in how to be a grihasta and a lack of training on how to cooperate with others in a compassionate way. You cannot have a village or a family when there is instability. When I came to NV in 1994, there were half a dozen other young men in the ashram. We were all there to fulfill Srila Prabhupada's vision for NV (history repeats itself). Over time we all got married, but our vision, for most of us, did not change. However, there was no support from the top. Many of the elders wanted a retirement community. One of the issues that cut my commitment to NV was a land issue. One young man and myself had a minor issue over how much of a pasture we were each going to buy (it was between our houses and we both had family cows-we were actually both very eager to do the same thing for Srila Prabhupada). At that time, NV commissioned one 'senior' devotee to sell all of their land for them with a slight commission. This devotee turned around and sold most of the best grazing land on the ridge, including the land that the younger devotee and I were already in the process of acquiring, to himself (did he make commission off himself? I do not know). He put his big house in the middle of the pasture. Neither of us had much taste for small farming or dealing with the "community" after that. There were dozens of issue like that. I have come to attribute much of it to the inconceivable dynamics of NV, especially how it was at that time. But the end result was broken trust, broken faith in a vision and in the end, broken spirits. All, if not most of those younger devotee couples from that time all moved to Columbus (big town with stable economy and sane administration) to raise their familles; the are there now and are happy and settled, but not how we or Srila Prabhupada had originally desired. Alachua was a little different, but still there is a lack of commitment or willingness to move ahead or trust those who wish to take on the chore. I waited for two years to see how things would develop there; speaking with older devotees giving my input. Everyone wants to see something to happen. Just no one can agree on a vision. The one's with the vision and the will to begin the program don't have the time or finances. The one's with the finances often do not have the will or the correct vision. There is a great and very warranted fear of starting something again. Some think it is better to let the herds die off. Some still feel that if someone, even with a family, expects $1000 a month they are in maya. Some think that farms should just be single family endeavors (that brings us to the family cow and personal commitment). In the end, I decided to focus on raising a stable and functional family and preach downtown whenever I get the chance. I do not preach about self sufficiency because I do not want to get anyone's hopes up. I simply preach about self realization and keep my cow sentiments inside. As I indicated previously, we do have a vision to start a farm/temple out here; start from scratch. Sort of a working vedic farm as I presented to some devotees in Alachua--all you need is a highway and a college town. We have the bonus of being less than an hour from Fairfield (Yogaville). My emphasis is to learn from the mistakes of ISKCON's past with regard to kids, cows, women, land and just how we treat eachother in general. The most destructive force in ISKCON is how we treat each other on a one-to-one basis; from cows to kids to women to land to each personal interaction with another. If done right it can be the greatest impetus for growth -- internally and externally. This is getting lengthy--I apologize. This simple subject is interconnected to the life blood of our movement in America (perhaps elsewhere too). From one family's experience, you can see the troubles that are at the root of our stagnancy with regard to healthy family oriented villages and cooperation in spiritual life as well as agrarian life. This should be enough to open a few conversations. In a message dated 12/30/2003 4:20:29 PM Central Standard Time, ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes: > You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now. Yes this is true. We are open to almost any kind of contribution to Ekadasi's upkeep. at the www.iscowp.org site click the Adopt A Cow Today button and learn all about it. It is stated there that different sponsorship programs can be arranged just get in contact with iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net Ekadasi can also be viewed there at the end of the list. The picture was taken this year in the spring. Visit us at: www.iscowp.org > [Original Message] > Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> > <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > 12/30/2003 5:10:04 PM > Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? > > > > > > > You know Ghosh, I would've kept them if I had a trailer, and if we get a > > temple with land going here in Iowa City I will gladly accept them. > > You could take up a sponsership, or even partial sponsership even now. > > >At the time, > > they were not included as part of my settlement and I was not aware they > were > > going to be left to the community. I was only able save myself. > > No comment :-) > > > > > Anymore on my personal situation or involvement with the 'accepting temple > > cows rather than buying new cows' issue would best be addressed outside of > this > > > > conference. > > > > I hope you don't think the replies too harsh. You were brave to even bring > it up. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The > important thing is to try and stop the pattern from endlessly repeating > itself, and you could do good service to be a voice of caution to the > seemingly endless line of romantic agrarianists who think they can pull it > off and still sell milk relatively cheaply. I can all but guarantuee that > the person selling milk in GN at $3 a gallon is putting zero aside for > future maintanence of the cow and its calf, and once the milk is gone, those > who bought it will feel no responsibility to help. > > I think someone like Pandu who has that understanding, it would be better to > just pay the $3 to the milker, and put the balance into a trust fund with > the cow as a beneficiary. Of course, on such a small scale, fees may make it > infeasible to do so, but if 50 or a 100 were paying the surplus into a > fund, it would be significant. And it could and should be thousnads doing > so, if everyone buying mainstream milk would pay a little extra into it. > > > > > For the record, I do agree that cows should be adopted (physically) from a > > temple herd first, if at all possible. As you may or may not know, I was > not > > the > > one calling the shots, (it was only a rosey picture in the barn). > > Are you removed enough from the situation emotionally by now that I could > laugh at you about all that, and your feelings wouldn't be hurt? :-) > Incidentally, nice to hear from you, it's been a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 - "Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN)" <Hrimati.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Tuesday, December 30, 2003 6:30 pm Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? > > > > > I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even > bother to > > do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an > > sentimental atheist. > > Wow...I thought we are not going to call each other names any more. > He was doing nice service to his cow and saved her from the > Slaughterhouse.Please give him credit for that. > Y.s. > Hrimati dasi This is a general statement, not a specific one. Nevertheless, it was probably too rash. It's just frustrating that after 15 years of preaching the same message, "don't take a cow unless you are really committed to provide for it (and the calf) for its whole life" -- that there are still people who don't get it. And the result is that either the cow must suffer -- or some already overworked temple cowherd becomes even more burnt out. ys hkdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Haribol Hrimati well said He saved Ekadasi from the butcher so he deserves only praise not harsh words. The temple shouldnt gripe about taking care of unproductive cows. They should be glad to serve them. They are getting so much benefit from the cows, more than they can ever give and even the overworked cowherd should be happy the poor cow is alive and safe. It seems the prabhu had to leave NV community and anything can happen in life unexpectedly. but taking up the responsibility of keeping a cow is better than never taking it up . We accepted a cow a year ago because her owner couldnt take care of her and as soon as she walked in the gate she sat down and gave birth to a beautiful black calf, Kalindi... after a 5 km walk on the road. We are controlling our breeding, but we are a Trust for cow protection so we have an obligation to accept cows in difficulty. Another one is Bandi who was beaten and left to die in the jungle with a broken leg by a drunken farmer and she delivered her calf 2 months later and is an extremely happy cow tho lame. And Parvati whose mother died of neglect ( septic wound) at another farm and we fed on a baby bottel for 9 months. In the past I had given away a couple of cows on demand but i have brought them back as they didnt like their other homes. So call it sentiment but compassion is also a sentiment that Vaisnavas can develop. The money part is not much of a problem and cow protection is a challenge, Just because my husband and I are old doesnt mean we should ignore the challenge of saving these cows. Actually they are saving us. Because you cant see everything in the future doesnt mean you just stop and do nothing. At least every devotee can Adopt a cow. your servant labangalatika - Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> Cc: <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>; <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; <doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Tuesday, December 30, 2003 4:41 AM Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? > > > Mark Middle Mountain wrote: > > > > > > >>Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to > >> > >> > >take > > > > > >>on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave > >> > >> > >this > > > > > >>mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she > >>reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka > >> > >> > >> > > > >They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of > >maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk is > >flowing. > > > > > > If it is true that he ended up palming the cow off on the temple in the > end, then I'm afraid I must agree with the assessment that he should > never have taken the cow in the first place -- especially not when he > was sufficiently warned against making that commitment in the first place. > > It is always condemnable to take on the responsibility for keeping a cow > when you are not going to be able to maintain it in the long run. > > ys > hkdd > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email to: > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] > > > I would say that any so-called Krishna devotee who won't even > > bother to > > > do that before making the commitment to own a cow is actually an > > > sentimental atheist. > > > > Wow...I thought we are not going to call each other names any more. > > He was doing nice service to his cow and saved her from the > > Slaughterhouse.Please give him credit for that. > > Y.s. > > Hrimati dasi > >This is a general statement, not a specific one. Nevertheless, it was probably too rash. It's just frustrating that after 15 years of preaching the same message, "don't take a cow unless you are really committed to provide for it (and the calf) for its whole life" -- that there are still people who don't get it. And the result is that either the cow must suffer -- or some already overworked temple cowherd becomes even more burnt out. > >ys >hkdd > I can see both sides... But" if you could change the hands of time" would you......??? All cows are Krsna's..... and none a burden, just society that taxes and creates the burden... Hare Krsna...... Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] Hare Krsna Matta, You are exactly right... I was a cowheard (Gopa) and I am very greatful for my service they and Krsna allowed me.. Even the ones that appeared in the middle of the night... Its not the work or service of the cows that can fry you... Its the managers who have no clue of what to do that makes the great burden.. ( can be described in detail but opens a big can of worms.).... I just want to say I honor your ideals and I think you are an great example... This is the way. I sence your mentality in your words... All Glories to you and your great husband and your service to the auspicious giving mothers, fathers and children; the cows.... I hope to Meet you and your husband someday..... Hare Krsna.......... Derek- >Haribol Hrimati well said >He saved Ekadasi from the butcher so he deserves only praise not harsh >words. The temple shouldnt gripe about taking care of unproductive cows. >They should be glad to serve them. They are getting so much benefit from >the cows, more than they can ever give and even the overworked cowherd >should be happy the poor cow is alive and safe. >It seems the prabhu had to leave NV community and anything can happen in >life unexpectedly. but taking up the responsibility of keeping a cow is >better than never taking it up . > >We accepted a cow a year ago because her owner couldnt take care of her >and as soon as she walked in the gate she sat down and gave birth to a >beautiful black calf, Kalindi... after a 5 km walk on the road. We are >controlling our breeding, but we are a Trust for cow protection so we have >an obligation to accept cows in difficulty. Another one is Bandi who >was beaten and left to die in the jungle with a broken leg by a drunken >farmer and she delivered her calf 2 months later and is an extremely >happy cow tho lame. And Parvati whose mother died of neglect ( septic >wound) at another farm and we fed on a baby bottel for 9 months. In >the past I had given away a couple of cows on demand but i have brought >them back as they didnt like their other homes. So call it sentiment >but compassion is also a sentiment that Vaisnavas can develop. The >money part is not much of a problem and cow protection is a challenge, >Just because my husband and I are old doesnt mean we should ignore the >challenge of saving these cows. Actually they are saving us. Because >you cant see everything in the future doesnt mean you just stop and do >nothing. At least every devotee can Adopt a cow. >your servant labangalatika >- >Noma Petroff >Mark Middle Mountain >Cc: ; ; ; >; ; Cow (Protection and related issues) > >Tuesday, December 30, 2003 4:41 AM >Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? > > > > > > > > Mark Middle Mountain wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>Beautiful. You mention that perhaps they were right to tell you not to > > >> > > >> > > >take > > > > > > > > >>on another cow when there were already so many there. However you gave > > >> > > >> > > >this > > > > > > > > >>mother cow a time of life where she was loved and cared for. And she > > >>reciprocated. This was a great gift you gave her. obeisances eka > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >They were right - he left and now the community is left with the cost of > > >maintaining a nonproducing cow. It's always a rosy picture when the milk >is > > >flowing. > > > > > > > > > > If it is true that he ended up palming the cow off on the temple in the > > end, then I'm afraid I must agree with the assessment that he should > > never have taken the cow in the first place -- especially not when he > > was sufficiently warned against making that commitment in the first place. > > > > It is always condemnable to take on the responsibility for keeping a cow > > when you are not going to be able to maintain it in the long run. > > > > ys > > hkdd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > To from this mailing list, send an email to: > > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Ekabuddhi - have you read the Cow Protection Standards this conference evolved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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