URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

August 1, 1999

> For instance, Harvard University didn't start with a 10 billion dollar

> endowment, or whatever vast amount of resources they are said to have at

> their disposal. Most likely for it's first few generations they were

> nothing more than a small 2-bit school in some far flung outpost of the

> British Empire.

>

> With this in mind, it appears quite possible to me that even our currently

> small humble attempts at VAD can prove to develop into something powerful

> over time.

That is all I am saying. All I would like to see is our leaders admitting

this, and taking those first baby steps instead of making out that

varnasrama cannot be done, or just plain ignoring it.

Look at the state of gurukulas in ISKCON. Instead of being seen as a crucial

element of the Krsna Consciousness movement, they were practicaly ignored,

and now we are all hearing the horrifying tales of abuse that went on, while

the leaders fiddled with grand projects.

It would be interesting to find out what eventualy came of some of the

millions of dollars that were painstakingly collected by sincere (and now

often 'burned out' devotees). What happened to some of those 'grand

projects? Not for the sake of criticising, but for the sake of learning from

our mistakes. We have a lot to learn.

Lets see some priority. Why do people pay so much to send their kids in

Harvard? Because the know the value of good education. Kids become adults.

Prabhupada thought our kids were the future hope. But investment in kids

education is a long term goal, wheras the leadership was more interested in

short term success. Bad prioritisation.

Lets have some long term planning for a change.

YS

August 1, 1999

>

> Temples are basically ashramas, almost like a gurukula experience where one

> gets basic training as a devotee. That is our unique gift to human

> civilization. VAD training can also be there, that was certainly encouraged

by

> Prabhupada's various quotes. But his basic program remains training the

> devotees in the arts specifically pertaining to Vaisnava culture.

I think you are basicaly in agreement with janesh on this point. The temples

are

already acting as colleges of a sort, just seems that the management doesn't

really understand that yet. If they could actually start thinking of the

temples

as a school instead of a goal, everything might start working a little

smoother.

>

> In my mind, VAD is an outgrowth of that basic program Prabhupada gave us, not

> a replacement.

>

> ys,

>

> Sthita

Or to express it another way, it is a setting for the jewel. Jewels are

wonderful things, but it is common practice to place them in a setting to

properly display them. Srila Prabhupada has given us this jewel of devotional

service, yet he wasn't able to finish the gift by getting it placed into a

proper

setting. To just keep a jewel in a bag, and think of it as something special

only a few of us are lucky enough to posses is only a partial understanding.

It

needs to be displayed properly so the entire world can share in its

scintillating

beauty.

August 1, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> Are you saying Srila Prabhupada was wrong? Are you saying you have a new

social system where humans can make advancement toward the ultimate goal of

life?

>

I am saying that you are possibly over looking numerous other quotes

concerning what Prabhupada said about 'human life' and so on. Further, there

are various quotes about the potency of chanting as being the most important,

in fact the only austerity of spiritual significance in Kali-yuga.

Simply because there are many things that Prabhupada emphasized as goals for

his followers does not necessarily nulify any one of them -- as in the blind

men and the elephant parable. To there contrary, I feel they compliment each

other.

>

> To me, practical engagement in varnasrama-dharma includes providing real

knowledge from scripture regarding the subject - not conjecture from a

neophyte.

>

Yes, thus it is advised that we take Prabhupada's teachings as a whole, and

not simply take what we find particularly inspiring and deny the rest. Taking

what is inspiring is fine, but not at the expense of the rest of the

siddhanta.

>

> Again, useless and incorrect conjecture and speculation without reference

from scripture.

>

This is all in scripture -- like the brahmanas being the head of VAD society,

and that Kali yuga began with the fall of the brahmana order ala Srngi cursing

Maharaja Pariksit, etc, etc.

I can get into a folio battle over these points, but that can get lame,

especially if common sense is lacking.

>

> "Without cow protection there can be no brahminical culture." How are you

going to have cow protection without varnasrama-dharma? Certainly ISKCON is a

very good example of how cows CANNOT be protected without varnasrama-dharma.

Nor child protection, nor women protection.

>

Sure, no argument. Still, who guides and inspires the standards of VAD within

society? The head, duh -- just like in the physical body.

Further, there are cow's being protected in ISKCON. Just the fact that the

devotees feel outraged when there are examples of abuse attests to the

establishment of that sentiment within our society. Obviously, we have far to

go.

None of this is meant to say that the vaisya, ksatriyas aren't self-sufficient

independent thinkers in their own right, but it seems to me if we talk about

VAD as a whole, we need to appreciate how the brahminical class is meant to

function productively within it.

I am somewhat amazed that you feel we require a barage of folio quotes to

substatiate the significance of brahminical culture within a conference

already dedicated to understanding Prabhupada's teachings.

> Yet you rely upon your sentiment to say, "We can just all chant Hare Krsna

like Haridasa Thakur and all these problems will go away like magic! We are

above varnasrama-dharma. We don't "really" need it."

>

> Nonsense. Judge the ISKCON tree by its fruits.

>

No, I never said that. But you have my permission to say I said that if you

feel that is helpful towards establishing VAD. Hey, I want to do my part to

chip in, too!

On the other hand, at the risk of sounding speculative, I suspect there are

devotees who will make an honest claim that they are getting positive results

from chanting Hare Krsna.

But really, this statement you posted is not my position. If anything, I would

say that VAD is at least meant to help support a devotional culture based on

Lord Caitanya's program of chanting Hare Krsna. Everything is meant to be

engaged in such a way that it assists us in cultivating our relationship with

Krsna. VAD is not meant to be something independent of the standard process of

devotional service. But not just VAD, everything is meant to be connected.

So Janesh, if being an honest ksatriya helps you chant your rounds, then no

doubt you must be making lot's of advancement. Janesh ki jai!

..

August 1, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> Are you saying Arjuna SHOULD have left the battlefield and pursued his

> "brahminical" desires of living in the forest and begging? He had every

> "brahminical" argument placed before Krsna regarding violence and killing

relatives, desire for fame and empire, etc.

>

But if he were a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, he should take his initiation

vows seriously, if if he feels he is following short. Such things are not

sentimental gibberish, in my speculative opinion.

I don't believe Arjuna would feel he needs to run away from the battlefield in

order to do such simple things. Prabhupada made statements along the lines

that even factory workers can chant while on the assemply line. Further, even

a child can take part, even a dog, etc, etc. I mean, I don't expect a dog

first needs to become a qualified brahmana in order to benefit from the

chanting.

I start to scratch my head when some of our VAD proponents seem to be

suggesting we need to change the basic core of our philosophy and it's

practice. I would much prefer to appreciate how VAD supports and complements

devotional service, not that it usurps it.

> Krsna's opinion was very different from yours.

>

Must be some very personal, intimate version of Krsna or something. Like you

said, I ain't nuthin but a neophyte.

ys,

Sthita

..

August 1, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

> Prabhupada: Yes. ...Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if

they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come...

Just as I have been saying, chanting can be done in any situation. I used

Haridas Thakur as an example of how the chanting can work, not that we must

imitate his example out of context of our present individual condition.

Still, as in all situations, we need to find our own honest level of strenght

and build our devotional activities on that. VAD is meant to help towards that

end. Not that if we cannot live in an ashrama setting our whole life (as if in

imitation of Harida Thakur) we have no opportunity to advance.

>

> Is there something not getting through to you, Prabhu?

>

These points seem obvious to me.

..

August 1, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> > Devotional service appears to either be independent of VAD, or that we

already have VAD now and we are not recognizing it, as there appears to me

many devotees already getting much out of KC.

>

> Do you have ANY scriptural references to support anything you say?

>

> I prefer guru, sadhu and sastra:

>

I based that statement on something said along the lines that devotional

service cannot be performed unless we first establish VAD. So I guess my

mistake might be taking you to be a quotable sadhu, but I would simply see

that as as sign of your advanced humility.

>

> If its the REAL service to the Vaisnavas according to Bhaktivinode why isn't

good enough for ISKCON?

>

Yes, establishing VAD culture is another significant opportunity to serve the

acaryas in our disciplic line.

With so much in agreement, I am not sure what point you intend to be driving

at. Certainly you have must to contribute, but whether you understand

something as deep as VAD in it's entirety based on quoting a few texts -- that

may be debatable.

ys,

Sthita

August 1, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> Yes he did. And even if he didn't, who did? Did Dhruva become a brahmana?

>

He became a pure devotee, the real point of VAD, duh. I'd rather be a pure

devotee than a 'respectable brahmana' any day of the week, something it would

seem Prabhupada might agree on.

..

August 1, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> On 31 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

>

> > Yes, finding ourselves peacefully situated will always be considered an

asset for prosecuting KC, but without the chanting, so much peacefullness is

only a temporary adjustment.

>

> More sentimental dribble. Any scriptural references yet, Prabhu?

>

Are you really serious on this point? I'm kinda amazed that someone would

claim that peaceful living is more significant then chanting.

Regarding the importance of chanting Hare Krsna in the Hare Krsna Movement, if

pushed, I can drown this conference with quotes. Now wouldn't that be

'nectar', huh?

> You always seem to want to interpret for our "understanding" Srila

> Prabhupada's statements regarding varnasrama as though they were "just nice

things for peaceful situating" or some garbage like that. Sri Arjuna or

Priyavrata Maharaja would disgree I think.

>

VAD is meant to help situate the conditioned soul in order to better utilize

his human energy apporpriately. Yes, VAD principles can be utilized even now.

Meanwhile, the chanting can be done at any time, in any place. Yes, we want to

create favorable conditions for chanting Hare Krsna, as well as our other

basic Guadiya Vaisnava devotional activities.

ys,

Sthita

August 1, 1999

On 01 Aug 1999, Samba das wrote:

>

> That is all I am saying. All I would like to see is our leaders admitting

this, and taking those first baby steps instead of making out that varnasrama

cannot be done, or just plain ignoring it.

>

In my own mind, it seems to me that we need to start by recognize the various

'varnic' energies naturally at play within our current devotional society, and

then learn how to encourage them so that they work cooperatively and

efficiently, all based on our core devotional principles. That would be my own

understanding how we can immediately utilize VAD in a powerful way. Such

things do not require a preoccupation with personal labels, which, again, in

my mind, might spoil the whole things based on our general lacking in depth of

experience and realization.

> Look at the state of gurukulas in ISKCON. Instead of being seen as a crucial

element of the Krsna Consciousness movement, they were practicaly ignored, and

now we are all hearing the horrifying tales of abuse that went on, while the

leaders fiddled with grand projects.

>

Yes, and I honestly feel that in many ways we are heading in a proper

direction considering the realities of our present situation. Again, regarding

schools, I can only say that my own direct experience with a child currently

in a tradition ISKCON ashrama school has so far been very positive. And my

ex-wife, who lives outside of ISKCON, seems to feel the same way.

> Not for the sake of criticising, but for the sake of learning from

> our mistakes. We have a lot to learn.

>

yes

..

August 1, 1999

On 01 Aug 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> I think you are basicaly in agreement with janesh on this point.

>

I think so too, but admitting it would spoil all the fun!

> The temples are already acting as colleges of a sort, just seems that the

management doesn't really understand that yet. If they could actually start

thinking of the temples as a school instead of a goal, everything might start

working a little smoother.

>

I believe these are very serious points that would benefit from more

consideration. Temple life is a dynamic part of a larger devotional culture,

not the goal.

>

> Or to express it another way, it is a setting for the jewel. Jewels are

wonderful things, but it is common practice to place them in a setting to

properly display them.

>

Exacty. Still, if we find ourselves without the proper setting, we can still

appreciate and benefit from the value of the jewel. The setting simply makes

it all the more obvious and assessable.

> Srila Prabhupada has given us this jewel of devotional

> service, yet he wasn't able to finish the gift by getting it placed into a

proper setting.

>

He also said how he gave us the framework, and now we must fill it in. It is

often difficult living on the superstructure of a skyscraper without all the

various walls, floors and ceilings, what to speak of fixtures and appliances.

ys,

Sthita

August 2, 1999

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> > Yes, the point is that their love for Krsna wasn't dependent on their

being Vaisyas, or members of any other varna, for that matter. For instance,

it is said that Rukmini is an expansion of Candravali, while Satyabhama is an

expansion of Radharani. So love is always there.

>

> Yes. But they always maintained there position as vaisyas in respect for the

varnasrama-dharma institution.

>

Rukmini and Satyabhama were considered ksatriyas -- they were considered among

Krnsa's principle queens in Dvarka.

> To you varnasrama-dharma is is an "OKthing" or "tool" but we, who are

more advanced than that, don't have to really accept it.

>

> Grow up, quote scripture to try to support yourself.

>

VAD is great! I love VAD! But without basic devotional practices like chanting

Hare Krsna, it can quickly turn into simply a cultural phenomena.

> To maintain proper social order and help the citizens gradually progress

toward the goal of life - namely spiritual understanding - the principles of

varnasrama-dharma must be accepted.

>

Yes, I agree with Prabhupada -- we need to study the principles of VAD and

apply them according to our practical realization within the current preaching

field Krsna has given us to work with.

I am sorry if I am not towing the line on your every point -- it is just that

I am not particularly enthused by 'Chairman Mao' versions of establishing VAD

culture.

ys,

Sthita

August 2, 1999

On 01 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

> Yes, establishing VAD culture is another significant opportunity to serve

the

> acaryas in our disciplic line.

Yes, this is the whole point of the discussion, and yet ISKCON/GBC has made no

significant progress over the last 25 years in establishing this "significant

opportunity" to serve the acaryas and especially Srila Prabhupada who ordered

it to be established (varnasrama colleges).

> With so much in agreement, I am not sure what point you intend to be driving

> at.

Yes, you "agree" that VAD is very important and yet support the so-called

leaders of this movement who have not done squat towards instituting divisions

of varna within the movement for over 25 years.

What good reason would you give for the GBC's failure to implement varnasrama

colleges in EVERY center for over 25 years?

August 3, 1999

> Yes, this is the whole point of the discussion, and yet ISKCON/GBC has made

no significant progress over the last 25 years in establishing this

"significant opportunity" to serve the acaryas and especially Srila Prabhupada

who ordered it to be established (varnasrama colleges).

>

This is where we diverge. There are many significant goals that Prabhupada

outlined for his followers to pursue, most notably pure devotional service.

>

> Yes, you "agree" that VAD is very important and yet support the so-called

leaders of this movement who have not done squat towards instituting divisions

of varna within the movement for over 25 years.

>

Whether the GBC are a bunch of swell guys or not is not my personal obsession.

They seem to be trying as best they can, much like the rest of us.

Being fanatically judgement of others with regards to our favorite issues is

not the best way to progressively manage anything, in my opinion.

Anyway, this argument goes on and on, blah, blah, blah....

August 3, 1999

On 01 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

> On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> > On 31 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

> >

> > > Yes, finding ourselves peacefully situated will always be considered an

> asset for prosecuting KC, but without the chanting, so much peacefullness is

> only a temporary adjustment.

> >

>

> > More sentimental dribble. Any scriptural references yet, Prabhu?

> >

>

> Are you really serious on this point? I'm kinda amazed that someone would

> claim that peaceful living is more significant then chanting.

>

> Regarding the importance of chanting Hare Krsna in the Hare Krsna Movement,

if

> pushed, I can drown this conference with quotes. Now wouldn't that be

> 'nectar', huh?

Prabhupada is our only source of knowing about the value of chanting the Holy

Names. But he has given direction on how we must approach this very high

facility in his scripture:

I'll give you a hand because you obviously cannot stand to quote scripture or

guru for some reason.

"Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the

systems of varnasrama and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The...

People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is

not possible.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja

ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not

remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the

sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women.

This kind of chanting will go on. ...Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required.

Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced

all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

We have the chanting and that is very nice, but why not the varnasrama?

Prabhupada always included it as a part and parcel of our practices. Why do we

want to discard it as if we are above it?

> VAD is meant to help situate the conditioned soul in order to better utilize

> his human energy apporpriately. Yes, VAD principles can be utilized even

now.

> Meanwhile, the chanting can be done at any time, in any place. Yes, we want

to

> create favorable conditions for chanting Hare Krsna, as well as our other

> basic Guadiya Vaisnava devotional activities.

Then why hasn't anything been done practically for more than 25 years?

What are some of your practical ideas of how we should implement Srila

Prabhupada's ORDERS to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center?

Do you disagree with Srila Prabhupada on this? Is the GBC in disagreement with

Srila Prabhupada on this?

25 years?

August 3, 1999

On 02 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

> On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> > Yes. But they always maintained there position as vaisyas in respect for

the

> varnasrama-dharma institution.

> >

> Rukmini and Satyabhama were considered ksatriyas -- they were considered

among

> Krnsa's principle queens in Dvarka.

The original statement I believe was about the gopis in Vrindavana. My

reference was to them, not Rukmini or Satyabhama who were wonderful ksatriya

pricesses and they fully respected to varnasrama institution even while

married to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

..

August 3, 1999

On 02 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

> > Yes, this is the whole point of the discussion, and yet ISKCON/GBC has

made

> no significant progress over the last 25 years in establishing this

> "significant opportunity" to serve the acaryas and especially Srila

Prabhupada

> who ordered it to be established (varnasrama colleges).

> This is where we diverge. There are many significant goals that Prabhupada

> outlined for his followers to pursue, most notably pure devotional service.

We diverged a long time before this.

Pure devotional service means following the orders of the spiritual master.

You cannot separate the two. Srila Prabhupada said at length and in detail how

to divide the society into four varnas and he ordered that the GBC start

varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the movement.

HAS THIS BEEN DONE IN THE LAST 25 YEARS? Please answer this.

We will be doing pure devotional service when we are establishing varnasrama

dharma in Prabhupada's movement. He said everything else was done by him and

only establishing varnasrama was unfinished. What is it we have been doing for

the last 25 years? Dawdling! Manufacturing our own hellish ideas.

NO ONE is arguing against devotional service. Varnasrama on the order of the

spiritual master IS pure devotional service.

What would the excuse be if Srila Prabhupada came back right now and asked

where are the varnasrama colleges I ordered you to start in EVERY center?

Please answer this.

> > Yes, you "agree" that VAD is very important and yet support the so-called

> leaders of this movement who have not done squat towards instituting

divisions

> of varna within the movement for over 25 years.

> Whether the GBC are a bunch of swell guys or not is not my personal

obsession.

Nor mine. They are devotees without doubt. I have never said otherwise. But

they obviously not engaged properly or are attached to their positions in

neglect of fulfilling Srila Prabhupada's varnasrama orders.

They are encouraging chanting, why not varnasrama with equal priority at

least?

> They seem to be trying as best they can, much like the rest of us.

It does not take a lot of effort to start establishing varnasrama as a

priority in ISKCON. This is a very lame excuse. They just have to DO IT!

> Being fanatically judgement of others with regards to our favorite issues

Varnasrama was a very, very favorite "issue" of Srila Prabhupada. He

considered it wholely HALF of his entire mission. Yet we don't give it the

time of day. Cows continue to die. Children sexually molested in this society

of people "doing pure devotional service" for the last 25 years. What a

fricking JOKE!

August 3, 1999