It's a position

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> Reminds me of playground squabbles; "but he started it!".

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

>

>

 

 

All I can say is at least it hasn't reminded us of that Colorado High School

library. Just see how advanced the devotees are!

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> Reminds me of playground squabbles; "but he started it!".

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

>

>

 

 

All I can say is at least it hasn't reminded us of that Colorado High School

library. Just see how advanced the devotees are!

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > > By the way, I still have on

> > > my disk the letter sent to me by Balabhadra and Chaya giving details

about

> how you killed the animals there and will be glad to reproduce it if anyone

> requests.

> > >

>

>

> So where's the beef? --woops.

>

> I mean, if there is physcial evidence such as a letter with such apparently

> clear testimony, how can one later say they didn't mean to say they had this

> evidence. I mean, did you ever read the letter, or is it that we just

imagine

> such things exist.

 

Please read the letter in question which has been posted already on this

conference. Sorry, I really can't understand your point here.

>

> If we must indulge in ridiculous (sic?) offenses, at least we should try to

be

> a little adept at it.

Ridiculous is properly spelt according to the Webster's Dictionary but I don't

know what type of slang you may be referring to.

 

Please define the offences that you are referring to. The allowing of cows to

freeze in the fields as alledged by Balabhadra and Chaya? He is the minister

of ag. and as stated in the letter discussed/chastised New Vrindavana about it

many times. Perhaps you can adopt a practice of more substance and less

attitude in your postings. Not that I am also not guilty of it myself.

>

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > > By the way, I still have on

> > > my disk the letter sent to me by Balabhadra and Chaya giving details

about

> how you killed the animals there and will be glad to reproduce it if anyone

> requests.

> > >

>

>

> So where's the beef? --woops.

>

> I mean, if there is physcial evidence such as a letter with such apparently

> clear testimony, how can one later say they didn't mean to say they had this

> evidence. I mean, did you ever read the letter, or is it that we just

imagine

> such things exist.

 

Please read the letter in question which has been posted already on this

conference. Sorry, I really can't understand your point here.

>

> If we must indulge in ridiculous (sic?) offenses, at least we should try to

be

> a little adept at it.

Ridiculous is properly spelt according to the Webster's Dictionary but I don't

know what type of slang you may be referring to.

 

Please define the offences that you are referring to. The allowing of cows to

freeze in the fields as alledged by Balabhadra and Chaya? He is the minister

of ag. and as stated in the letter discussed/chastised New Vrindavana about it

many times. Perhaps you can adopt a practice of more substance and less

attitude in your postings. Not that I am also not guilty of it myself.

>

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

>

>

> I wouldn't recommend you see Prsni D's shrink, 'cause then you'd really look

> funny carrying a danda.

>

> Yep, reacting defensively to self-perceived personal attacks is one of the

more prominant of the 26 qualities of a devotee.

>

Wow, all attitude and no substance. LIfe must be hell.

 

Respectfully,

Vyapaka dasa

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

>

>

> I wouldn't recommend you see Prsni D's shrink, 'cause then you'd really look

> funny carrying a danda.

>

> Yep, reacting defensively to self-perceived personal attacks is one of the

more prominant of the 26 qualities of a devotee.

>

Wow, all attitude and no substance. LIfe must be hell.

 

Respectfully,

Vyapaka dasa

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Vyapaka Dasa wrote:

 

> Please define the offences that you are referring to. The allowing of cows

to freeze in the fields as alledged by Balabhadra and Chaya? He is the

minister of ag. and as stated in the letter discussed/chastised New Vrindavana

about it many times. Perhaps you can adopt a practice of more substance and

less attitude in your postings. Not that I am also not guilty of it myself.

>

 

 

 

Willfully neglecting the cows is not good, no argument there. Fortunately that

appears to be a policy that has changed years ago. Still, saying Balabhadra

and Chaya wrote a letter saying the cows are neglected as compared to

apparently writing a letter the cows are being slaughters are two different

animals.

 

I guess we need to read our mail more carefully before we accuse the devotees

of slaughtering cows.

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Vyapaka Dasa wrote:

 

> Please define the offences that you are referring to. The allowing of cows

to freeze in the fields as alledged by Balabhadra and Chaya? He is the

minister of ag. and as stated in the letter discussed/chastised New Vrindavana

about it many times. Perhaps you can adopt a practice of more substance and

less attitude in your postings. Not that I am also not guilty of it myself.

>

 

 

 

Willfully neglecting the cows is not good, no argument there. Fortunately that

appears to be a policy that has changed years ago. Still, saying Balabhadra

and Chaya wrote a letter saying the cows are neglected as compared to

apparently writing a letter the cows are being slaughters are two different

animals.

 

I guess we need to read our mail more carefully before we accuse the devotees

of slaughtering cows.

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> All I can say is at least it hasn't reminded us of that Colorado High School

> library. Just see how advanced the devotees are!

You are being so ridiculous I am not even going to comment. You can't defeat

my arguments so just throw out accusations and attitude. Please don't think

that many of the devotees are giving much credit to your points. At least, I

hope not.

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> All I can say is at least it hasn't reminded us of that Colorado High School

> library. Just see how advanced the devotees are!

You are being so ridiculous I am not even going to comment. You can't defeat

my arguments so just throw out accusations and attitude. Please don't think

that many of the devotees are giving much credit to your points. At least, I

hope not.

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Vyapaka Dasa wrote:

 

> >

> Wow, all attitude and no substance. LIfe must be hell.

>

> Respectfully,

> Vyapaka dasa

>

 

 

 

But it is a funny sort of hell!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Vyapaka Dasa wrote:

 

> >

> Wow, all attitude and no substance. LIfe must be hell.

>

> Respectfully,

> Vyapaka dasa

>

 

 

 

But it is a funny sort of hell!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Vyapaka Dasa wrote:

 

> You are being so ridiculous I am not even going to comment. You can't defeat

my arguments so just throw out accusations and attitude. Please don't think

that many of the devotees are giving much credit to your points. At least, I

hope not.

>

 

 

I certainly wouldn't consider something as silly as that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Vyapaka Dasa wrote:

 

> You are being so ridiculous I am not even going to comment. You can't defeat

my arguments so just throw out accusations and attitude. Please don't think

that many of the devotees are giving much credit to your points. At least, I

hope not.

>

 

 

I certainly wouldn't consider something as silly as that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

At 2:57 -0800 4/25/99, Robert Cope wrote:

 

>Where is your indignation when Mad. Ghosh tells me to see a psychiatrist? I

>have also been attacked personally and if you look at many of the

>submissions you will see that I am reacting to criticism.

 

I saw that both of you made some reference to counseling. However, that

seemed pretty mild in comparison to the rest of the quotes. You may also

have noticed that I also didn't comment when you said you thought he'd end

up on the couch first.

 

Besides, we probably all need psychiatric help, since we're here.

 

What disturbs me is that you can't see how incredibly inappropriate your

texts were, but instead immediately go on the defensive, trying to justify

what you said. Reminds me of playground squabbles; "but he started it!".

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 2:57 -0800 4/25/99, Robert Cope wrote:

 

>Where is your indignation when Mad. Ghosh tells me to see a psychiatrist? I

>have also been attacked personally and if you look at many of the

>submissions you will see that I am reacting to criticism.

 

I saw that both of you made some reference to counseling. However, that

seemed pretty mild in comparison to the rest of the quotes. You may also

have noticed that I also didn't comment when you said you thought he'd end

up on the couch first.

 

Besides, we probably all need psychiatric help, since we're here.

 

What disturbs me is that you can't see how incredibly inappropriate your

texts were, but instead immediately go on the defensive, trying to justify

what you said. Reminds me of playground squabbles; "but he started it!".

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 7:39 -0800 4/25/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)

wrote:

 

>All I can say is at least it hasn't reminded us of that Colorado High School

>library. Just see how advanced the devotees are!

>

 

Unfortunately, we have incidents from our past of devotees using humans as

gun target practice too - it even occurred in peaceful northern CA.

 

But I do get your point. Yes, there are always some people we can point

to, who are even worse (I know you didn't meant that this justifies the

devotees' actions).

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 7:39 -0800 4/25/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)

wrote:

 

>All I can say is at least it hasn't reminded us of that Colorado High School

>library. Just see how advanced the devotees are!

>

 

Unfortunately, we have incidents from our past of devotees using humans as

gun target practice too - it even occurred in peaceful northern CA.

 

But I do get your point. Yes, there are always some people we can point

to, who are even worse (I know you didn't meant that this justifies the

devotees' actions).

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> After reading Hare Krsna Prabhu's statement that your previous texts are

> not representative of your personality and her request that we give you a

> second chance, I was perfectly willing to do so. However, you have again

> crossed the line. There seems to be some kind of personal vendetta that

> is compelling you to malign another devotee on this conference and to air

> old dirty laundry. Let's stop it right here. If you want to work this

> out in a private forum - fine, but don't expose the rest of us to this

> nasty and childish behavior.

 

I agree totaly. this is not at all constructive.

[Guest guest]

> After reading Hare Krsna Prabhu's statement that your previous texts are

> not representative of your personality and her request that we give you a

> second chance, I was perfectly willing to do so. However, you have again

> crossed the line. There seems to be some kind of personal vendetta that

> is compelling you to malign another devotee on this conference and to air

> old dirty laundry. Let's stop it right here. If you want to work this

> out in a private forum - fine, but don't expose the rest of us to this

> nasty and childish behavior.

 

I agree totaly. this is not at all constructive.

[Guest guest]

 

Robert Cope <vyapaka (AT) accel (DOT) net>

Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) access (DOT) mountain.net>

Friday, May 14, 1999 2:31 PM

Re: It's a position

 

 

>Madhava Ghosh wrote:

>>No one is denying animals were neglected and died needlessly. As a

>reaction for

>>that , bhaktipada went to prison and will probably die there. There is a

>vast

>>gulf between that and cow slaughter, which is an extremely serious

>acusation.

>>In any case, it was a situation that had changed 5 years prior to your

>article.

>

>According to the Merriam Webster dictionary, one meaning of slaughter is to

>kill in large numbers and that is what seems to have happened in New

>Vrindavna, at least according to Balabhadra and Chaya's letter to me

already

>posted to this conference. Why don't you get them to check the facts. Such

>was not only told to me via letter but I checked in North Carolina where

>Balabhadra lived and they also reported that Balabhadra stated this many

>times verbally. So I don't think we are dealing with a small typo or

>misunderstanding here.

>

>So how did the animals die out of neglect? You say they weren't slaughtered

>well that is great to hear. Balabhadra is simply spreading false rumors. So

>what happened to the animals and why didn't any of you or the other

devotees

>write something in the newsletter as requested revealing the real facts?

>This whole matter would be cleared up long ago.

>>

>>> Your famous temper is getting the best of you here. I did not say that

>you

>>> were involved in the actual handling of the herd. However, Nrisingha

>>> Caitanya Prabhu told me that he wrote a report strongly encouraging the

>>> STOPPING of the dairy there and you criticized it stating that economy

of

>>> scale of a large herd made it feasible. Maybe N.Cait. is lying (as

>everyone

>>> seems to be but you) but it sure sounds like a statement you would make.

>For

>>> everyone's info. N. Cait. dasa is in charge of the cow protection

program

>>> and he is doing a fine job to my knowledge.

>>

>>Since I had dropped out of the cow program years before, I don't see how

>it

>>like something I would say. The real question is why was N Chait. still

>>involved with it all those years? He was one who did eventually wake up,

>after

>>years of glorifying the large herd to Hindu guests. And to his credit,

>once he

>>realised it was a big mistake, he did continue to try help minimize the

>>damage, and does so to this day.

>

>All I can say is thank Krsna for N. Cait.'s and others continued efforts to

>support the cows when so many others bailed out.

>>

>>As for what I told him, try to understand. There were over 300 cows in

>the

>>herd at that time. IT wasn't a simple matter of just saying we weren't

>going

>>to do this anymore. It was a very complicated issue that need a

>sophisticated

>>response . If you are on a speeding train that is going over 100 mph,

and

>you

>>realise you are going in the wrong direction, it is not recommended to

>just

>>step offf the train. My objections to Nrsimha Chaitanya weren't that we

>should

>>stop doing what I had always been opposed to, but that if it was just

>stopped

>>without a plan, a huge disaster would ensue. Which it did.

>

>That wasn't how it was described to me and it is wonderful how your memory

>is improving.

>>>

>>> N. Cait told me that Ranaka was in charge of the herd/farm for all of

the

>>> time the dairy was under operation. Can you explain to me how one can

>>> freshen and milk cows in a dairy situation. I asked Ranaka at the barn

to

>>> show me the records and he said they weren't available, I think that the

>>> reason for was a computer failure or glitch. Gaudiya dasa told me that

he

>>> was in charge of the heifer calves but didn't know of any program for

the

>>> bull calves.

>>

>>All that was water under the bridge for a long time before your big

expose,

>>which damaged teh rebuilding process. Yes, no program for oxen because

>>devotees were, both in NV and elsewhere, totally addicted to petroleum.

>And

>>that is why Balabhadra was invited to NV, to help balance that inequity.

>Which

>>happened before your great expose.

>My great expose was a direct reaction to Balabhadra and Chaya's article

>written in the newsletter, Hare Krsna Rural Life(Fall, 1995), where they

>whitewashed the situation as they described it to me in their letter. After

>explaining that a dairy program leads to animal slaughter they glossed over

>the situation by writing: "As cow slaughter was prohibited by Prabhupada's

>instructions, the whole program was in an extremely problematic state of

>affairs." "...Today, New Vrindavana has a herd of 280 cows, bulls, and

>oxen -- not owned by individual families, but still under the care of one

>centralized goshalla."

>

>However, according to simple math, there should have been manymore animals

>as was discussed with Balabhadra, Nrs. Cait, myself and others when I

>visited N.V. Everyone was aware, or made aware, during that meeting that

>there were many animals missing and no explanation was offered to explain

>their fate. Explain where the animals went and why I wasn't informed during

>my visit. Don't blame me for the deceit shown to me by Ranaka and others.

>>

>>> Again, Balabhadra's letter stating that cows were left in the

>>> field to freeze to death. Wasn't New Vrindavana charged by the S.P.C.A.

>for

>>> cruelty to animals or something similar?

>>

>>No.

>I have heard that from so many quarters that I have a hard time believing

>you. Different devotees who lived in N.V. told me they saw dead cows in the

>fields during the winter.

>>

>>> Why over the course of the dairy did the herd not grow? That is how it

>was described to me by many individuals over the years when they visited

>Montreal which had strong ties to N.V.

>>

>>It did grow. It grew tremendously, which created a huge problem when the

>milk

>>checks dried up.

>Again, we discussed this during the meeting with Balabhadra and Nrs. Cait.

>and the herd size is very small in relation to the number of animals being

>freshened each year. Both Balabhadra and Nrs. Cait. agreed to this during

>our discussion. By the way, for someone who wasn't involved with the cow

>program you seem to know everything that was going on but don't present

any

>facts.

>

>In Canada, the calf mortality rate is 1% if memory serves me well. I can

>check that tomorrow. What was the calf mortality rate in N.V. It sounds

like

>near 100%, at least for the bull calves.

>

>>> >As for an exposition of what happened to the cows, I am fully ready to

>do

>>> so in front of the Deities, in court, or in this conference.

>>>

>>> Well please do so. I have asked repeatedly and received no answers,

>>> including from you. Don't you remember our hour long conversation on the

>>> back of your pickup behind the guest house.

>>

>>I confess, I don't remember every conversation I have ever had.

>

>Your memory is extremely selective. So tell us now, what happened to all of

>the animals and show us that Balabhadra and Chaya are wrong in their

>statements in the letter and statements at North Carolina.

>>

>>> You had no explanation then. Of

>>> course, I am lying again. When I pressed Nr. Cait. for details he tried

>to

>>> defend the situation but ended up simply saying that Ranaka was in

charge

>>> but using somewhat less flattering language. Why didn't N.V, Ranaka,

Nrs.

>>> Cait provide the proper explanation in writing as a refutation of my

>>> editiorial to be published in the newsletter Hare Krsna rural Life when

>>> invited.

>>

>>Becasue everyone was so busy trying to save the cows?

>

>There was no major threat at the time of my visit. Fundraising was going

>well and the cows had been guaranteed their feed for the winter. Stop

making

>things up.

>>

>>> It may be voimit but you cannot deny that I have tried to get the facts.

>>> There are many witnesses to this and I will definitely win in a court

>>> battle. I am not suprised to see that you wouldn't do it in front of the

>>> deities.

>>>

>>

>>I have seen zero facts so far, simply second hand hearsay and

>suppositions. I

>>have no problem going in front of the Deities, personally. Your

>accusations

>>made in front the Deities would be bad for your spiritual life, and as

you

>seem

>>to have no compunction about making unsubstantiated claims, I would

prefer

>an

>>evidentiary proceeding.

>

>We are waiting for you to provide the facts on how it seems that the New

>Vrindavana herd had such a high mortality rate. Why haven't the facts been

>produced already? I have asked for them, offered equal time to refute

>Balabhadra's claims but nothing. Only hype from you and vindictive action

by

>yourself and Ranaka to not sell me land in N.V. as punishment.

>>>

>>> You have admitted on this conference where you don't remember

>conversations,

>>> in particular the one that you ranted like a total madman.

>>

>>I acknolwedged that I have ranted like a madman in at least a hundred

>>conversations. Yes, I don't remember everyone of them.

>>

>>> You damn well

>>> know that you took vengeance for the article out on me and explicitly

>told

>>> me and Caits informed me of the same on the phone before we went out as

>>> well. If Caits denies it then what can I do but wait for everyone's

karma

>to

>>> be played out.

>>

>>There is a difference betwen being vengeful and being careful to avoid

>harm.

>>What to speak of you were offered a parcel of land, that offer was never

>>withdrawn, you rejected it as inadequate for your vision of waht you

>wanted.

>

>The fact of the matter is that when you told me that I would have to prove

>myself to you before getting more land I baled out. There was no way I was

>going to put my fate in the hands of someone of your caliber. It was

>probably a god-send anyways because you told me the native spirits living

on

>that parcel of land jinxed it. What was the name of that spirit again? I

>have never been good with names.

>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Your ranting in the field is why I never returned to the land committee

>>> meetings. You told me that I would have to prove myself to you before

>being

>>> sold any more that five acres and I just had to laugh. My wife will

>confirm

>>> this because we jumped in the truck the next day and eventually

purchased

>a

>>> farm in Canada. This is one of the best things that ever happened to me

>and

>>> I thank you for not selling me any substantial piece of property there.

>>

>>At last you see. At the time, you were asked to make a presentation, a

>>business plan so to speak. Your projections were extremely unrealistic,

>and

>>yes, your best interest was a consideration in all our dealings, even

if

>you

>>weren't able to understand it at the time. I'm glad you eventually did.

>

>I was never asked to present a business plan. Stop lying. I presented my

>ideas but never a business plan. My idea was to develop a functional model

>of self-sufficieny as a back drop to offering conferences and instruction

on

>developing agricultural self-sufficiency drawing upon my extensive network

>of farmers and academics in organic agriculture and permaculture. As you

>know, I have been a farm inspector in the organic food business for over

ten

>years and have contacts with a large number of people to help the movement

>develop towards the vision set out by Srila Prabhupada. It isn't my problem

>that you couldn't see the potential. In fact, the last meeting I attended

>the committee offered me 80 acres of land which I couldn't afford

especially

>since it was mostly hillside and forest. At that time, I left for the Xmas

>marathon and in the meantime Ranaka decided to take revenge as told to me

by

>you and Caits.

>

>If you think I am making this all up, I will happily present a letter I

>wrote in January,1997 to Varsana and Nitya Ditya Maharajas (resident

>sannyasis in N.V.) stating in even more detial my reason for leaving New

>Vrindavana. Would you like me to present that letter? I am sure both

>Maharajas will remember receiving this letter.

>

>This whole discussion has run its course in my opinion. The message is

don't

>try to milk too many cows and definitely don't try to make profit from the

>cows. Keep it simple and focused on a small number of families. Otherwise,

>the cows outgrow the land base and the milking has to be greatly reduced or

>the animals killed or neglected resulting in the same end.

>

[Guest guest]

 

Robert Cope <vyapaka (AT) accel (DOT) net>

Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) access (DOT) mountain.net>

Friday, May 14, 1999 2:31 PM

Re: It's a position

 

 

>Madhava Ghosh wrote:

>>No one is denying animals were neglected and died needlessly. As a

>reaction for

>>that , bhaktipada went to prison and will probably die there. There is a

>vast

>>gulf between that and cow slaughter, which is an extremely serious

>acusation.

>>In any case, it was a situation that had changed 5 years prior to your

>article.

>

>According to the Merriam Webster dictionary, one meaning of slaughter is to

>kill in large numbers and that is what seems to have happened in New

>Vrindavna, at least according to Balabhadra and Chaya's letter to me

already

>posted to this conference. Why don't you get them to check the facts. Such

>was not only told to me via letter but I checked in North Carolina where

>Balabhadra lived and they also reported that Balabhadra stated this many

>times verbally. So I don't think we are dealing with a small typo or

>misunderstanding here.

>

>So how did the animals die out of neglect? You say they weren't slaughtered

>well that is great to hear. Balabhadra is simply spreading false rumors. So

>what happened to the animals and why didn't any of you or the other

devotees

>write something in the newsletter as requested revealing the real facts?

>This whole matter would be cleared up long ago.

>>

>>> Your famous temper is getting the best of you here. I did not say that

>you

>>> were involved in the actual handling of the herd. However, Nrisingha

>>> Caitanya Prabhu told me that he wrote a report strongly encouraging the

>>> STOPPING of the dairy there and you criticized it stating that economy

of

>>> scale of a large herd made it feasible. Maybe N.Cait. is lying (as

>everyone

>>> seems to be but you) but it sure sounds like a statement you would make.

>For

>>> everyone's info. N. Cait. dasa is in charge of the cow protection

program

>>> and he is doing a fine job to my knowledge.

>>

>>Since I had dropped out of the cow program years before, I don't see how

>it

>>like something I would say. The real question is why was N Chait. still

>>involved with it all those years? He was one who did eventually wake up,

>after

>>years of glorifying the large herd to Hindu guests. And to his credit,

>once he

>>realised it was a big mistake, he did continue to try help minimize the

>>damage, and does so to this day.

>

>All I can say is thank Krsna for N. Cait.'s and others continued efforts to

>support the cows when so many others bailed out.

>>

>>As for what I told him, try to understand. There were over 300 cows in

>the

>>herd at that time. IT wasn't a simple matter of just saying we weren't

>going

>>to do this anymore. It was a very complicated issue that need a

>sophisticated

>>response . If you are on a speeding train that is going over 100 mph,

and

>you

>>realise you are going in the wrong direction, it is not recommended to

>just

>>step offf the train. My objections to Nrsimha Chaitanya weren't that we

>should

>>stop doing what I had always been opposed to, but that if it was just

>stopped

>>without a plan, a huge disaster would ensue. Which it did.

>

>That wasn't how it was described to me and it is wonderful how your memory

>is improving.

>>>

>>> N. Cait told me that Ranaka was in charge of the herd/farm for all of

the

>>> time the dairy was under operation. Can you explain to me how one can

>>> freshen and milk cows in a dairy situation. I asked Ranaka at the barn

to

>>> show me the records and he said they weren't available, I think that the

>>> reason for was a computer failure or glitch. Gaudiya dasa told me that

he

>>> was in charge of the heifer calves but didn't know of any program for

the

>>> bull calves.

>>

>>All that was water under the bridge for a long time before your big

expose,

>>which damaged teh rebuilding process. Yes, no program for oxen because

>>devotees were, both in NV and elsewhere, totally addicted to petroleum.

>And

>>that is why Balabhadra was invited to NV, to help balance that inequity.

>Which

>>happened before your great expose.

>My great expose was a direct reaction to Balabhadra and Chaya's article

>written in the newsletter, Hare Krsna Rural Life(Fall, 1995), where they

>whitewashed the situation as they described it to me in their letter. After

>explaining that a dairy program leads to animal slaughter they glossed over

>the situation by writing: "As cow slaughter was prohibited by Prabhupada's

>instructions, the whole program was in an extremely problematic state of

>affairs." "...Today, New Vrindavana has a herd of 280 cows, bulls, and

>oxen -- not owned by individual families, but still under the care of one

>centralized goshalla."

>

>However, according to simple math, there should have been manymore animals

>as was discussed with Balabhadra, Nrs. Cait, myself and others when I

>visited N.V. Everyone was aware, or made aware, during that meeting that

>there were many animals missing and no explanation was offered to explain

>their fate. Explain where the animals went and why I wasn't informed during

>my visit. Don't blame me for the deceit shown to me by Ranaka and others.

>>

>>> Again, Balabhadra's letter stating that cows were left in the

>>> field to freeze to death. Wasn't New Vrindavana charged by the S.P.C.A.

>for

>>> cruelty to animals or something similar?

>>

>>No.

>I have heard that from so many quarters that I have a hard time believing

>you. Different devotees who lived in N.V. told me they saw dead cows in the

>fields during the winter.

>>

>>> Why over the course of the dairy did the herd not grow? That is how it

>was described to me by many individuals over the years when they visited

>Montreal which had strong ties to N.V.

>>

>>It did grow. It grew tremendously, which created a huge problem when the

>milk

>>checks dried up.

>Again, we discussed this during the meeting with Balabhadra and Nrs. Cait.

>and the herd size is very small in relation to the number of animals being

>freshened each year. Both Balabhadra and Nrs. Cait. agreed to this during

>our discussion. By the way, for someone who wasn't involved with the cow

>program you seem to know everything that was going on but don't present

any

>facts.

>

>In Canada, the calf mortality rate is 1% if memory serves me well. I can

>check that tomorrow. What was the calf mortality rate in N.V. It sounds

like

>near 100%, at least for the bull calves.

>

>>> >As for an exposition of what happened to the cows, I am fully ready to

>do

>>> so in front of the Deities, in court, or in this conference.

>>>

>>> Well please do so. I have asked repeatedly and received no answers,

>>> including from you. Don't you remember our hour long conversation on the

>>> back of your pickup behind the guest house.

>>

>>I confess, I don't remember every conversation I have ever had.

>

>Your memory is extremely selective. So tell us now, what happened to all of

>the animals and show us that Balabhadra and Chaya are wrong in their

>statements in the letter and statements at North Carolina.

>>

>>> You had no explanation then. Of

>>> course, I am lying again. When I pressed Nr. Cait. for details he tried

>to

>>> defend the situation but ended up simply saying that Ranaka was in

charge

>>> but using somewhat less flattering language. Why didn't N.V, Ranaka,

Nrs.

>>> Cait provide the proper explanation in writing as a refutation of my

>>> editiorial to be published in the newsletter Hare Krsna rural Life when

>>> invited.

>>

>>Becasue everyone was so busy trying to save the cows?

>

>There was no major threat at the time of my visit. Fundraising was going

>well and the cows had been guaranteed their feed for the winter. Stop

making

>things up.

>>

>>> It may be voimit but you cannot deny that I have tried to get the facts.

>>> There are many witnesses to this and I will definitely win in a court

>>> battle. I am not suprised to see that you wouldn't do it in front of the

>>> deities.

>>>

>>

>>I have seen zero facts so far, simply second hand hearsay and

>suppositions. I

>>have no problem going in front of the Deities, personally. Your

>accusations

>>made in front the Deities would be bad for your spiritual life, and as

you

>seem

>>to have no compunction about making unsubstantiated claims, I would

prefer

>an

>>evidentiary proceeding.

>

>We are waiting for you to provide the facts on how it seems that the New

>Vrindavana herd had such a high mortality rate. Why haven't the facts been

>produced already? I have asked for them, offered equal time to refute

>Balabhadra's claims but nothing. Only hype from you and vindictive action

by

>yourself and Ranaka to not sell me land in N.V. as punishment.

>>>

>>> You have admitted on this conference where you don't remember

>conversations,

>>> in particular the one that you ranted like a total madman.

>>

>>I acknolwedged that I have ranted like a madman in at least a hundred

>>conversations. Yes, I don't remember everyone of them.

>>

>>> You damn well

>>> know that you took vengeance for the article out on me and explicitly

>told

>>> me and Caits informed me of the same on the phone before we went out as

>>> well. If Caits denies it then what can I do but wait for everyone's

karma

>to

>>> be played out.

>>

>>There is a difference betwen being vengeful and being careful to avoid

>harm.

>>What to speak of you were offered a parcel of land, that offer was never

>>withdrawn, you rejected it as inadequate for your vision of waht you

>wanted.

>

>The fact of the matter is that when you told me that I would have to prove

>myself to you before getting more land I baled out. There was no way I was

>going to put my fate in the hands of someone of your caliber. It was

>probably a god-send anyways because you told me the native spirits living

on

>that parcel of land jinxed it. What was the name of that spirit again? I

>have never been good with names.

>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Your ranting in the field is why I never returned to the land committee

>>> meetings. You told me that I would have to prove myself to you before

>being

>>> sold any more that five acres and I just had to laugh. My wife will

>confirm

>>> this because we jumped in the truck the next day and eventually

purchased

>a

>>> farm in Canada. This is one of the best things that ever happened to me

>and

>>> I thank you for not selling me any substantial piece of property there.

>>

>>At last you see. At the time, you were asked to make a presentation, a

>>business plan so to speak. Your projections were extremely unrealistic,

>and

>>yes, your best interest was a consideration in all our dealings, even

if

>you

>>weren't able to understand it at the time. I'm glad you eventually did.

>

>I was never asked to present a business plan. Stop lying. I presented my

>ideas but never a business plan. My idea was to develop a functional model

>of self-sufficieny as a back drop to offering conferences and instruction

on

>developing agricultural self-sufficiency drawing upon my extensive network

>of farmers and academics in organic agriculture and permaculture. As you

>know, I have been a farm inspector in the organic food business for over

ten

>years and have contacts with a large number of people to help the movement

>develop towards the vision set out by Srila Prabhupada. It isn't my problem

>that you couldn't see the potential. In fact, the last meeting I attended

>the committee offered me 80 acres of land which I couldn't afford

especially

>since it was mostly hillside and forest. At that time, I left for the Xmas

>marathon and in the meantime Ranaka decided to take revenge as told to me

by

>you and Caits.

>

>If you think I am making this all up, I will happily present a letter I

>wrote in January,1997 to Varsana and Nitya Ditya Maharajas (resident

>sannyasis in N.V.) stating in even more detial my reason for leaving New

>Vrindavana. Would you like me to present that letter? I am sure both

>Maharajas will remember receiving this letter.

>

>This whole discussion has run its course in my opinion. The message is

don't

>try to milk too many cows and definitely don't try to make profit from the

>cows. Keep it simple and focused on a small number of families. Otherwise,

>the cows outgrow the land base and the milking has to be greatly reduced or

>the animals killed or neglected resulting in the same end.

>