Ritvik Debate Finally Comes To An End

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada never had a guru-disciple relationship with thousands of his disciples, simply because he never met them! They were initiated via the ritvik system as early as 1973. This system does not appear in any Vaishnava tradition, as far as we know. So by your logic, Srila Prabhupada should have been rejected for "breaking" tradition!

 

as I said before: there really was no other way in that case, as the movement was growing so fast and SP's time was very precious. things are completely different now. yet, as Jndas has shown in his quotes from Sri Vaishnava tradition, there was some precedens in the past for such actions.

 

 

 

"As Hari is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subjected."

(C.c. Madhya, 10.136, text and purport)

 

do you understand the word mundane? do you really know what that quote really means? you believe a guru or his disciple can justify any behavior with that statement?

 

the spiritual master in the line of an authorized parampara IS subject to many rules set by the parampara itself. otherwise he is bogus... can he have sex with young boys for example? eh?? remember? some Iskcon "spiritual masters" apparently thought so, finding justification for their debauchery by twisting the meaning of such quotes.... a guru can CERTAINLY be rejected on the basis of his behavior. That rule applies to all gurus.

[Guest guest]

Dear JNDas -

 

I see you changed the text of your last post. I am sure your right that I am not the first or the last to say such a thing about missing posts. What I don't understand is why the posts don't appear to be in this thread any longer. BTW - no - I don't think my contribution is something worth saving for future generations or any other such thing. My comment wasn't made because I have any delusions of grandeur - rather I made the comment because I believe in free speech and I don't believe in censure.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

I changed my reply to you above because I thought it may have been too harsh.

 

You have not made any other posts other than what's in this thread above. If you have written something, perhaps you did not hit submit, or perhaps your internet connection timed out. But the fact is you have not posted anything else here in this thread.

 

If you doubt this, and think you are being targeted for censorship, then I would seriously suggest you don't post here. I am not interested in being blamed for imaginary things, and you can be certain all your texts will be much safer on your home computer rather than here.

 

Never in the history of these forums has someone's post been removed to make it appear they are losing a debate. Your claim that such a thing happened is ludicrous. Posts get removed by the moderators (not me), when they are deemed offensive and when they are spam. Otherwise posts do not get removed. Up to now, in this thread, no one's post has been removed.

[Guest guest]

Dear JNDas,

 

No I don't doubt your word on this. For some reason I couldn't find the last two posts I put up on this thread, there were conspicuous by there absence from my view. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. I'm not really debating or trying to 'win' or anything like that. Again, I apologize for my accusation and the way I stated it.

[Guest guest]

 

That's just your opinion. The fact is gayatri diksha has never been given to women by acharyas, but Prabhupada did it. He broke the tradition and started his own tradition that is followed today. This was completely avoidable by simply following tradition, by following his own guru maharaja Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. He did not follow his guru, he did not follow tradition. Instead he chose to break tradition and start his own tradition.

 

It is obvious that this was avoidable, thus your statement is proven false. Would you care to admit it or go around in circles? These debates can never end because no one admits when they are proven wrong by logic.

 

I am not trying to defend the ritvik position, but just show your logical falacies. If you have other logical arguments you can present them. But the three arguments given in this thread fall apart without trying.

 

As pointed out above, Prabhupada has departed from scripture many times. And when it is pointed out, you will say, "oh, that wasn't essential" or "that wasn't so important." This is where honesty in debate becomes a factor. You have to admit when your logical argument falls apart. You state Prabhupada would never depart from scripture. Now I have proven factually that Prabhupada has departed from scripture in at least six ways. Rather than acknowledge this fact, you say the ritviks are sentimental...

 

 

 

I applaud JnDas for being balanced and fair minded on the ritvik issue. It is a rare thing to see someone willing to look at both sides of the coin. Like I said before I have seen arguments from both sides that make sense to me. It seems to be one of those things where you can find quotes from apparently reliable sources that will support either position. What do you do in that circumstance? Frankly I don't know.

 

 

-D.B. Cooper Jr.

[Guest guest]

 

What is his position? I had come to believe it may be similar to mine although I am sure more developed. Stated simply, I agree Prabhupada's vani is complete and available right now through his teachings. Taking those teachings to heart by sincere practice is all the initiation anyone needs to become Krsna conscious.

 

Which means I feel no need to have an offical initiation ceremony performed by an approved Iskcon guru or an offical ritvik priest. I avoid both camps do to there propensity to sling mud at each other and anyone else who disagrees with them.

 

JNdas, do you know Rocana's position?

 

 

I read a quote by Prabhupada that just by reading his books you are basically initiated and that the books will do all the work and that an initiation ceremony is basically a formality. Then I have seen quotes by Prabhupada that you have to be a member of the society and stuff like that. So it is difficult to know what is the actual solution in regards to this.

 

-D.B. Cooper Jr.

[bija 0]

Quote:

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"As Hari is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subjected."

(C.c. Madhya, 10.136, text and purport)

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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quote by kulupavana :"do you understand the word mundane? do you really know what that quote really means? you believe a guru or his disciple can justify any behavior with that statement?

the spiritual master in the line of an authorized parampara IS subject to many rules set by the parampara itself. otherwise he is bogus... can he have sex with young boys for example? eh?? remember? some Iskcon "spiritual masters" apparently thought so, finding justification for their debauchery by twisting the meaning of such quotes.... a guru can CERTAINLY be rejected on the basis of his behavior. That rule applies to all gurus."

 

In studying the full purport of this verse, we see it is in reference to Isvara Puri. Isvara Puri is considered "fully empowered" by the Lord, in Srila Prabhupada's and Krsnadasa Kaviraja's understanding.

Surely if the Guru is not a fully empowered Mahabhagavata he is subject to the rules and regulations, as you have pointed out Kulu. But the Guru who is fully empowered by his own Guru and the Lord is not subject to any rules and regulations. He does not have to conform to any set stereo-type. And rules and regulations, and abominable practices as you have mentioned would not be a consideration. He is fully empowered by the Lord and can preach in anyway he sees fit.

Opinions vary on AC Bhaktivedanta himself. But if it is understood that he is a mahabhagavata and was fully empowered by the Lord and Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja. Then we can begin to understand how and why he was able to implement so many practices as mentioned in the above posts. He was fully empowered and could implement, instruct and spread the Holy Name, in a suitable manner considering time, place and circumstance as he saw fit. These are the mysteries of the fully empowered Guru/Mahabhagavata, who is to be considered as good as the Lord.

In my opinion AC Bhaktivedanta was such a rare soul. His example is much different than the souls who artificially placed themselves in such a high position and subsequently came under the power of the illusory energy and fell.

 

The following is a quote from the purport to the above verse:

An authorised spiritual master is as good as Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As Hari is free to act as He likes, the empowered spiritual master is also free. As Hari is not subject to mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subject.

[bija 0]

 

Originally Posted by theist

What is his position? I had come to believe it may be similar to mine although I am sure more developed. Stated simply, I agree Prabhupada's vani is complete and available right now through his teachings. Taking those teachings to heart by sincere practice is all the initiation anyone needs to become Krsna conscious.

 

 

I read a quote by Prabhupada that just by reading his books you are basically initiated and that the books will do all the work and that an initiation ceremony is basically a formality. Then I have seen quotes by Prabhupada that you have to be a member of the society and stuff like that. So it is difficult to know what is the actual solution in regards to this.

 

-D.B. Cooper Jr.

 

 

 

Considering the very high position of AC Bhaktivedanta, Theist's realisations should be given deep thought and consideration in my opinion. I think we can only begin to get a grasp of actually how fully empowered he really was. And his writings are also of the same standard, non-different from him. Theist's conclusions therefore should not be cast aside lightly. The points being brought out by Theist have been very enlivening and enlightening for me, even if this does not appear so in my posts. But saying this, understanding the truth of Srila Prabhupada is not such a basic thing and is dependant upon realisation in the heart. So I have taken an approach to these matters, dependant on my level of realisation, and have tried to keep my views as balanced as possible.

[Guest guest]

 

the spiritual master in the line of an authorized parampara IS subject to many rules set by the parampara itself. otherwise he is bogus... can he have sex with young boys for example? eh?? remember? some Iskcon "spiritual masters" apparently thought so, finding justification for their debauchery by twisting the meaning of such quotes.... a guru can CERTAINLY be rejected on the basis of his behavior. That rule applies to all gurus.

 

Can you give any examples of authorized members of the parampara falling down? ie: mahabhagavat rather than the voted in iskcon type of dude.

 

If the guru is bona fide, then his teachings and instructions will automatically be in line with sadhu and sastra:

 

 

" Sadhu sastra guru-vakya, tinete kariya aikya. Sastra is never changed. And the sadhu... sadhu means who follows the sastras. He is sadhu. He also does not change. Sadhu, sastra and guru? Guru means who follows the sastra and sadhu. So there are three, the same."

(S.P. Lecture 30/11/76,Vrindavana)

 

Since Prabhupada, of course, is such a bona fide guru, a fact that is not disputed by anyone in ISKCON. Thus we know that when we follow the orders of Srila Prabhupada, the bona fide guru, sastra and sadhu will automatically be satisfied.

 

If we accept any generally applicable teaching or instruction issued by Srila Prabhupada we are automatically, by definition, situated in line with sadhu and sastra. Such teachings and instructions, when issued by a bona fide guru, are all 'vedic version', sastric or as good as scriptural evidence (as long as we only accept a 'mukhya vritti', or face-meaning interpretation of them) and are thus accepted by all genuine sadhus as proper and sublime. It is thus not necessary to try and satisfy each of these three elements separately. To argue, as some have done, that we must check Srila Prabhupada's teachings against the opinions of other sadhus, or with some lesser mortal's limited understanding of sastra, is tantamount to arguing that Srila Prabhupada is not actually a bona fide guru. After all, only a bogus guru would propose something which was not in line with sadhu and sastra.

[Guest guest]

living gurus in iskcon came from the letter that tamal krishna dictated on july9th,1977. the word ritvik also came from tamal krishna

 

both came about simply because certain disciples thought that Prabhupada was dead or dying.

 

But for some he lives on! I came into Krishna consciousness when this happened, but Prabhupada is not dead for me. So i see no need for ritviks or living gurus! I see only Prabhupada's instructions.

 

And in his instructions, we see change over the years. During that year of 77 he was constantly railing against the "show bottle brahmanas" and comparing many of his disciples this way, and how they are another type of Sahajiya. He wanted the Varnashrama system to stop this, and to put them to work, instead of pretending and just sitting around all day chanting with offence.

 

That is why i work hard for his Mission, which is...........

 

Cow Protection

Simple Living High Thinking

Protecting Children

Protecting Women and Old Men

Grow your own food

Produce your own nessesities

Save time and Chant Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

 

living gurus in iskcon came from the letter that tamal krishna dictated on july9th,1977.

 

Can you prove this?

 

 

>>the word ritvik also came from tamal krishna

 

oh! yeh? Then how come it is in Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam, I guess you think Tamal wrote that too?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

To argue, as some have done, that we must check Srila Prabhupada's teachings against the opinions of other sadhus, or with some lesser mortal's limited understanding of sastra, is tantamount to arguing that Srila Prabhupada is not actually a bona fide guru. After all, only a bogus guru would propose something which was not in line with sadhu and sastra.

 

you make the following argument:

 

we assume SP is a bona fide guru therefore there is no need for checking his teachings against those of the parampara he represents.

 

such bogus circular logic arguments were also used by Kirtanananda and other crooks to prove they are bona fide...

 

BECAUSE SP is a proper guru, his teachings conform to those of the parampara, and this is the real test for ALL gurus who claim to represent a disciplic succession.

 

how exactly did you realize SP is a bona fide guru? how do you prove that to someone outside Iskcon? you do it by showing how the represents the parampara.

 

I

[Guest guest]

 

Nothing that the foolish Ritviks do represents our movement. They publish their own magazine 'Back to Prabhupada' and all the magazine does is blaspheme other Vaisnavas. If they truly represented Vaisnavism, they'd be out there engaging in pure devotional service rather than create a propaganda machine of their own trying to take devotees away from ISKCON (as they did outside Bhaktivedanta manor).

 

They have no clue really!

 

Speaking the truth is not blasphemy. Please point out ONE fact in BTP that is wrong. Pure devotional service means bringing people TO Srila Prabhupada, not taking the AWAY from Srila Prabhupada and giving them to an unauthorised guru.

[Kulapavana 0]

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

Prabhupada did not change the law of disciplic succession.