2nd house Jup in various roles--to Chandraji

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

 

After quoting that comprehensive statement of Parasara, on judgement of bhava

nasha and bhava vriddhi, I think I am incapable of adding anything further. I

thank all of you for the stimulating discussion.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

lakshmi ramesh <b_lakshmi_ramesh > wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Chandrasekhar ji,

 

I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka.

 

Lakshmi: Sir, I am treating this entire exercise as a learning experience. Thank

you very much for giving me this opportunity.

 

The reason of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house

has to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and

therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this (for natural Zodiac).

 

Lakshmi: Sir, if you look carefully at the sloka, it does not mention the

necessity of Mars being with Jupiter for providing wealth, but "adds" that such

a combination would also make the native wealthy. The first condition is stated

in the 1st line and if Parasara had truly insisted on the necessity of Jupiter

& Mars combination, he would have used the word “Bhouma-yuthe” in the first

line itself and would not have talked in a round about fashion. I am sure

Parasara is also unlikely to use words like “api” & “sahithe” superfluously, or

for the sake of rhetoric, as our Rishis are known for the extraordinary economy

& accuracy of their expression.

 

Where money matters are concerned 8th house indicates unearned wealth, lotteries

etc, so even the 8th lordship of Mars would not adversely affect the wealth of

the native. If Mars is not in his own house, I am sure he too can not

overpower Jupiter and here we need to consider a lot more factors.

 

I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is

not involved. The explanation of the dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if

it does not protect the house he is posited in. This is why Saturn is not

subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8 house

New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">.

 

Lakshmi: Sir, the much quoted dictum unfortunately implied otherwise. I beg your

pardon if I am mistaken.

 

And in this regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of

BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The gist is

that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in which there is

the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or its own lord, or when

the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha like yuva etc, or in the 10th

house. In all these situations the astrologer may indicate the well being of the

house, and the house gives good results.

 

On the other hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with

malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in combination

with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is defeated in a

planetary war or is in any one of the three states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or

nidra), the astrologer may predict with certainty that the native will suffer

losses in the things indicated by that house.

 

Sir, I leave further interpretation to you, seeing that Jupiter is a natural

benefic and Saturn is a natural malefic.

If you want, I can type out the shlokas as well.

 

If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will observe that

Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house (health)

and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house

indication he would have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita Dhana.

 

Lakshmi: That’s a lovely observation indeed and it is so very true!

However

a) 2nd house is also the maraka house and Saturn there can give sickness.

Saturn in 8th will bestow longevity, but can also give the referred

sicknesses. (ref “How to Judge Horoscopes , Vol II, by B V Raman).

b) The reference to “good qualities” may include facial expression, speech

etc, through which an impression is formed about the native. Saturn in 2nd is

said to give harsh speech and sullen/defiant expression and anti-social

behaviour. (Ref: How to judge horoscopes Vol I)

c) The shloka unambiguously states that it is dhana ( can include sanchita

+ aarjita dhana over a period of time) that would be adversely affected.

 

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

Chandrashekhar <boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Dear Lakshmi,I am glad you went to

the trouble of looking at the shloka. The reason of mars being necessary with

jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house has to do with Mars defeating or

overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and therefore his 8th house lord ship only

supports this (for natural Zodiac). I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati

mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is not involved. The explanation of the

dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if it does not protect the house he is

posited in. This is why Saturn is not subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8

house. If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will observe

that Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house

(health) and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house

indication he would have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita

Dhana.Regards,Chandrashekhar.lakshmi ramesh wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Chandrasekharji,

 

Thanks for your detailed reply. I know that your own approach to astrology is

very meticulous, because as you have demonstrated in the analysis of Ramesh’s

chart, you’d never make even a minor prediction without evaluating all the

influences not only in the natal chart but also in Navamsa. In this connection

I fondly remember the conversation Zoran, you and I had in Puri. It is

precisely this approach that makes your readings so meaningful.

 

Sir, a person with your knowledge will know when a particular dictum is

applicable and when it is not, by weighing the relative indications of the

other permutations and combinations existing in the chart. A lay person will

not know that and blind application and presumptions based on any dictum would

ultimately hurt not only the astrologer but also bring disrepute to this

sacred science. This is just my humble opinion.

 

The very 2 nd shloka from BPHS:

 

Dhanaadhipo gururyasya dhanabhaavagatho bhaveth

Bhoumena sahitho vaapi dhanavaan sa naro bhaveth

 

Sir, I guess this is the sloka you were presumably referring to. As Razdani had

pointed out in an earlier mail, this sloka says that when Jupiter, the karaka

for wealth is situated in dhanabhaava OR / AND (api) when he is situated

therein with Mars, the native is wealthy. Mars is the natural 1st lord and

Jupiter is the natural 9th lord and the their combination is the natural

Lakshmi Yoga, which is especially effective if placed in the 2nd house, which

is lorded in the natural zodiac by Venus, whose adhi devata is Maha Lakshmi !!

Such a yoga would definitely bestow more riches than if jupiter were alone in

2nd house.

 

Here Parasara does not seem to have given much weightage to Mars’s lordship of

8th house and Jupiter’s lordship of 12th house and seems to have concentrated

only on their Moolatrikonas, whose results would ofcourse, dominate over that

of own houses.

 

Regarding the effects of Saturn in 2nd house, let me quote the 13th shloka which goes as

 

Dhanemande dhanerdeeno vaatapitta kaphaaturah

Dehaasthi pitta rogascha gunau swalpopi jaayathe

 

Meaning, where Saturn is placed in 2nd house, the native is not only subjected

to poverty but also subjected to various diseases or/and is also bereft of good

qualities. Certainly does not look like “vriddhi” to me!!

 

Ofcourse, the above slokas will have to be read, understood, modified and

applied in the context of the planets’ dignities and functionalities.

 

Please tell me if there are any other slokas in BPHS, which state contrarily and

I would like to go through them for my benefit.

 

As far as I can recall, the references to Shalivahana and Dharmaraja occur in

the chapters dealing with vaiseshikamsas or the divisional dignities of raja

yoga causing planets. The comments are based on

a) higher vaiseshikamsas result only if the planets are posited

repeatedly in several vargas in exaltation/own house , and thus are exceedingly

strong.

b) and since we are discussing raja yogas, the planets concerned are

Kendra & trinal lords, hence functional benefics.

 

It goes without saying that the usual riders apply here also, and the great

people had their own share of troubles, but the rajayogas they had were so

powerful that they ultimately triumphed and were immortalised in the memory of

people.

 

Any other reference in the BPHS to them, Sir? I could have missed it.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

Dear Lakshmi,This reference is given by Narayan Bhatt the author of Chamatkar

Chintamani. He has not mentioned the Purana in which it appears. Had I known

that I would certainly have given the same.Parashara's views are no different

if one delves deep into what he has said about yogas involving Guru. Guru being

termed benefic and the word being associated with Deeksha or Shiksha Guru, we

sometimes fail to correlate the yogas to how Guru delivers results. Look at

what Parashara says about results of Guru in second house and then think why he

attributes Good results if he is in own house or conjuncts Mars. The implication

is that otherwise these results would not ensue. About looking at a chart from

non integrated point of view, I presume you are referring to the shlokas given.

While I agree with you about an integrated approach, it is better not to forget

that all

Sages have given such references including the Great Parashara himself (Look at

what he says about certain yogas in Shalivahana and Yudhishthira"s Chart in

times to come). It does not mean that the sages are having a one sided

approach. This is done to high light and illustrate a particular position of

Graha/s in order to make it easy to understand for the

laymen.Regards,Chandrashekhar.

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Lakshmi,

The first thing that is to be understood when analyzing a shloka is

that Sanskrit does not have comma or semicolon. How the sage would have

constructed the shloka is at best a guess work, though one can attempt

to understand his style of construction of shloka and its meter to make

an educated guess. The question remains, leaving aside

whether Mars associating with Jupiter is a must if Jupiter is not in

own house (as I think it does), why would the Sage mention own house at

all if he intended to convey Jupiter's occupation of 2nd house alone

with out Mars is capable to give wealth? Also note that even Mars alone

is said to be Viphala in giving results of 2nd Bhava. Both being

friends, perhaps they reduce each other's negative qualities and give

rise to Dhana yoga if of similar nature (harmful) in that place.

The difference in your interpretation ,and mine, appears to revolve

around whether Mars needs to be with Jupiter or not even if he does not

occupy own house in 2nd. I have given my reasoning above. Parashara

does not say Bhaumayute as he means if Jupiter is not in own house then

Mars has to conjoin Jupiter in 2nd to give the results indicated, or at

least that is the way I interpret the shloka.

About other shlokas you have quoted, no doubt the Sage says that.

However I prefer to apply all parameters in a structured order to

derive meaning of a shloka. If we take only natural benefics being

applicable, most of the Raj yogas would not come through. The reason

being they are dependent on Trine and Kendra Lords coming together in

trines or Kendra. Since number of natural Malefics is greater than

natural benefics, most of what the sage has said would have to be

discarded. I am certain that this not the case. I look at the text in

the old fashioned way. I think that Gurus teaching shishyas personally,

did not repeat what has been said once again every time the application

of that principle was necessary. They perhaps expected the shishya to

remember what ever had been told earlier and to modify results keeping

in view all the variables. Even in my earlier posts I have said that

how the results will fructify would depend on various other factors

that we normally take into consideration and applying our Viveka. Had

that not been the case, by now a computer program could have been

written to make predictions.

Saturn in 8th can definitely give sickness but does give long life and

the house is referred to as Ayush Sthana, thus in keeping with the

dictum Saturn does not kill protecting Ayush when placed in 8th house.

I have already given the reason how Saturn's aspect on 11th could give

loss of Dhana as it does aspect Aya Sthana. Much would also depend on

the functional nature of Saturn as in case of Guru.

The dictums give us the exceptions that are to be noted before coming

to any conclusion and serve a very important pointer in interpretation

of a chart.

I hope this clarifies the confusion.

Chandrashekhar.

lakshmi ramesh wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Chandrasekhar ji,

 

I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka.

 

Lakshmi: Sir, I am treating this

entire exercise as a learning experience. Thank you very much for

giving me this opportunity.

 

The reason of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is

not in own house has to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter

when conjunct and therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this

(for natural Zodiac).

 

Lakshmi: Sir, if you look carefully at the sloka, it does not

mention the necessity of Mars being with Jupiter for providing wealth,

but "adds" that such a combination would also make the native wealthy.

The first condition is stated in the 1st line and if

Parasara had truly insisted on the necessity of Jupiter & Mars

combination, he would have used the word “Bhouma-yuthe” in the first

line itself and would not have talked in a round about fashion. I am sure

Parasara is also unlikely to use words

like “api” & “sahithe” superfluously, or for the sake of rhetoric,

as our Rishis are known for the extraordinary economy & accuracy of

their expression.

 

Where money matters are concerned 8th house

indicates unearned wealth, lotteries etc, so even the 8th

lordship of Mars would not adversely affect the wealth of the native.

If Mars is not in his own house, I am sure he too can not overpower

Jupiter and here we need to consider a lot more factors.

 

I always have said about

"Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is not involved.

The explanation of the dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if it

does not protect the house he is posited in. This is why Saturn is not

subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8 house.

 

Lakshmi: Sir,

the much quoted dictum unfortunately implied otherwise. I beg your

pardon if I am mistaken.

 

And in this

regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of

BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The

gist is that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in

which there is the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or

its own lord, or when the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha

like yuva etc, or in the 10th house. In all these situations

the astrologer may indicate the well being of the house, and the house

gives good results.

 

On the other

hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with

malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in

combination with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is

defeated in a planetary war or is in any one of the three

states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or nidra), the astrologer may predict

with certainty that the native will suffer losses in the things

indicated by that house.

 

Sir, I leave

further interpretation to you, seeing that Jupiter is a natural benefic

and Saturn is a natural malefic.

If you want, I

can type out the shlokas as well.

 

If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will

observe that Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn

on 8th house (health) and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had

he intended 2nd house indication he would have talked about Face,

Speech and Sanchita Dhana.

 

Lakshmi: That’s a lovely observation indeed and it is so very

true!

However

a)

2nd

house is also the maraka house and Saturn there can give sickness.

Saturn in 8th will bestow longevity,

but can also give the referred sicknesses. (ref “How to Judge

Horoscopes , Vol II, by B V Raman).

b)

The

reference to “good qualities” may include facial expression, speech

etc, through which an impression is formed about the native. Saturn in 2nd

is said to give harsh speech and sullen/defiant expression and

anti-social behaviour. (Ref: How to judge horoscopes Vol I)

c)

The

shloka unambiguously states that it is dhana ( can include sanchita +

aarjita dhana over a period of time) that would be adversely affected.

 

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

Chandrashekhar <boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Dear

Lakshmi,

I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka. The reason

of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house has

to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and

therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this (for natural

Zodiac). I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the

question of vriddhi is not involved. The explanation of the dictum is

that Saturn will not harm even if it does not protect the house he is

posited in. This is why Saturn is not subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha

when in 8 house. If you read the shloka on Saturn,

quoted, carefully you will observe that Parashara is talking about the

7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house (health) and his 10th drishti

on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house indication he would

have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita Dhana.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

lakshmi ramesh wrote:

Om Gurave

Namah

 

Namaste

Chandrasekharji,

 

Thanks for

your detailed reply. I know that your own approach to astrology is very

meticulous, because as you have demonstrated in the analysis of

Ramesh’s chart, you’d never make even a minor prediction without

evaluating all the influences not only in the natal chart but also in

Navamsa. In this connection I fondly remember the conversation Zoran,

you and I had in Puri. It is precisely this approach that makes your

readings so meaningful.

 

Sir, a

person with your knowledge will know when a particular dictum is

applicable and when it is not, by weighing the relative indications of

the other permutations and combinations existing in the chart. A lay

person will not know that and blind application and presumptions based

on any dictum would ultimately hurt not only the

astrologer but also bring disrepute to this sacred science. This is

just my humble opinion.

 

The very 2

nd shloka from BPHS:

 

Dhanaadhipo

gururyasya dhanabhaavagatho bhaveth

Bhoumena

sahitho vaapi dhanavaan sa naro bhaveth

 

Sir, I

guess this is the sloka you were presumably referring to. As Razdani

had pointed out in an earlier mail, this sloka says that when Jupiter,

the karaka for wealth is situated in dhanabhaava OR / AND

(api) when he is situated therein with Mars, the native

is wealthy. Mars is the natural 1st lord and Jupiter is the

natural 9th lord and the their combination is the natural

Lakshmi Yoga, which is especially effective if placed in the 2nd

house, which is lorded in the natural zodiac by Venus, whose adhi

devata is Maha Lakshmi !! Such a yoga

would definitely bestow more riches than if jupiter were alone in 2nd

house.

 

Here

Parasara does not seem to have given much weightage to Mars’s lordship

of 8th house and Jupiter’s lordship of 12th house

and seems to have concentrated only on their Moolatrikonas, whose

results would ofcourse, dominate over that of own houses.

 

Regarding

the effects of Saturn in 2nd house, let me quote the 13th

shloka which goes as

 

Dhanemande

dhanerdeeno vaatapitta kaphaaturah

Dehaasthi

pitta rogascha gunau swalpopi jaayathe

 

Meaning,

where Saturn is placed in 2nd house, the native is not only

subjected to poverty but also subjected to various diseases or/and is

also bereft of good qualities. Certainly does not look like “vriddhi”

to me!!

 

Ofcourse,

the above slokas will have to be read, understood, modified and applied

in the context of the planets’ dignities and functionalities.

 

Please tell

me if there are any other slokas in BPHS, which state contrarily and I

would like to go through them for my benefit.

 

As far as I

can recall, the references to Shalivahana and Dharmaraja

occur in the chapters dealing with vaiseshikamsas or the divisional

dignities of raja yoga causing planets. The comments are based on

a)

higher

vaiseshikamsas result only if the planets are posited

repeatedly in several vargas in exaltation/own house , and thus are

exceedingly strong.

b)

and since

we are discussing raja yogas, the planets concerned are Kendra &

trinal lords, hence functional benefics.

 

It goes

without saying that the usual riders apply here also, and the great

people had their own share of troubles, but the rajayogas they had were

so powerful that they ultimately triumphed and were immortalised in the

memory of people.

 

Any other

reference in the BPHS to them, Sir? I could have missed it.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

Dear

Lakshmi,

This reference is given by Narayan Bhatt the author of Chamatkar

Chintamani. He has not mentioned the Purana in which it appears. Had I

known that I would certainly have given the same.

Parashara's views are no different if one delves deep into what he has

said about yogas involving Guru. Guru being termed benefic and the word

being associated with Deeksha or Shiksha Guru, we sometimes fail to

correlate the yogas to how Guru delivers results. Look at what

Parashara says about results of Guru in second house and then think why

he attributes Good results if he is in own house or conjuncts Mars. The

implication is that otherwise these results would not ensue. About

looking at a chart from non integrated point of view, I presume you are

referring to the shlokas given. While I agree with you about an

integrated approach, it is better not to forget that all Sages have

given such references including the Great Parashara himself (Look at

what he says about certain yogas in Shalivahana and Yudhishthira"s

Chart in times to come). It does not mean that the sages are having a

one sided approach. This is done to high light and illustrate a

particular position of Graha/s in order to make it easy to understand

for the laymen.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

 

 

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and Improved Mail - 100MB free storage!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Chandrasekharji,

 

About other shlokas you have quoted, no doubt the Sage says that. However I

prefer to apply all parameters in a structured order to derive meaning of a

shloka. If we take only natural benefics being applicable, most of the Raj

yogas would not come through. The reason being they are dependent on Trine and

Kendra Lords coming together in trines or Kendra. Since number of natural

Malefics is greater than natural benefics, most of what the sage has said would

have to be discarded. I am certain that this not the case.

Lakshmi: Sir, I request you to take a relook at the shlokas. When the sage

talked about the conjunction of lords of 3,6,8,11, and 12 as causes for

damaging the house, don't you think he was taking temporal functionality of

planets also into account?

 

Regards,

Lakshmilakshmi ramesh wrote:

And in this regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of

BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The gist is

that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in which there is

the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or its own lord, or when

the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha like yuva etc, or in the 10th

house. In all these situations the astrologer may indicate the well being of the

house, and the house gives good results.

 

On the other hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with

malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in combination

with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is defeated in a

planetary war or is in any one of the three states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or

nidra), the astrologer may predict with certainty that the native will suffer

losses in the things indicated by that house.

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Lakshmi,

Note that I have said "If we take only natural benefics being

applicable", so I do think that will also have to be considered.

However I feel that functional nature also has to be considered before

application of verses given by the sage and therefore I had given

illustration to support what I am stating.

regards,

Chandrashekhar.

lakshmi ramesh wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Chandrasekharji,

 

About other shlokas you have quoted, no doubt the Sage says

that. However I prefer to apply all parameters in a structured order to

derive meaning of a shloka. If we take only natural benefics being

applicable, most of the Raj yogas would not come through. The reason

being they are dependent on Trine and Kendra Lords coming together in

trines or Kendra. Since number of natural Malefics is greater than

natural benefics, most of what the sage has said would have to be

discarded. I am certain that this not the case.

Lakshmi: Sir, I request you to take a relook at the

shlokas. When the sage talked about the conjunction of lords of

3,6,8,11, and 12 as causes for damaging the house, don't you think he

was taking temporal functionality of planets also into account?

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

lakshmi ramesh wrote:

And in this

regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of

BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The

gist is that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in

which there is the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or

its own lord, or when the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha

like yuva etc, or in the 10th house. In all these situations

the astrologer may indicate the well being of the house, and the house

gives good results.

 

On the other

hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with

malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in

combination with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is

defeated in a planetary war or is in any one of the three

states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or nidra), the astrologer may predict

with certainty that the native will suffer losses in the things

indicated by that house.

 

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vedic astrology

 

 

 

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