Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Namaste All, After quoting that comprehensive statement of Parasara, on judgement of bhava nasha and bhava vriddhi, I think I am incapable of adding anything further. I thank all of you for the stimulating discussion. Regards, Lakshmi lakshmi ramesh <b_lakshmi_ramesh > wrote: Om Gurave Namah Namaste Chandrasekhar ji, I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka. Lakshmi: Sir, I am treating this entire exercise as a learning experience. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. The reason of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house has to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this (for natural Zodiac). Lakshmi: Sir, if you look carefully at the sloka, it does not mention the necessity of Mars being with Jupiter for providing wealth, but "adds" that such a combination would also make the native wealthy. The first condition is stated in the 1st line and if Parasara had truly insisted on the necessity of Jupiter & Mars combination, he would have used the word “Bhouma-yuthe” in the first line itself and would not have talked in a round about fashion. I am sure Parasara is also unlikely to use words like “api” & “sahithe” superfluously, or for the sake of rhetoric, as our Rishis are known for the extraordinary economy & accuracy of their expression. Where money matters are concerned 8th house indicates unearned wealth, lotteries etc, so even the 8th lordship of Mars would not adversely affect the wealth of the native. If Mars is not in his own house, I am sure he too can not overpower Jupiter and here we need to consider a lot more factors. I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is not involved. The explanation of the dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if it does not protect the house he is posited in. This is why Saturn is not subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8 house New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">. Lakshmi: Sir, the much quoted dictum unfortunately implied otherwise. I beg your pardon if I am mistaken. And in this regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The gist is that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in which there is the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or its own lord, or when the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha like yuva etc, or in the 10th house. In all these situations the astrologer may indicate the well being of the house, and the house gives good results. On the other hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in combination with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is defeated in a planetary war or is in any one of the three states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or nidra), the astrologer may predict with certainty that the native will suffer losses in the things indicated by that house. Sir, I leave further interpretation to you, seeing that Jupiter is a natural benefic and Saturn is a natural malefic. If you want, I can type out the shlokas as well. If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will observe that Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house (health) and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house indication he would have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita Dhana. Lakshmi: That’s a lovely observation indeed and it is so very true! However a) 2nd house is also the maraka house and Saturn there can give sickness. Saturn in 8th will bestow longevity, but can also give the referred sicknesses. (ref “How to Judge Horoscopes , Vol II, by B V Raman). b) The reference to “good qualities” may include facial expression, speech etc, through which an impression is formed about the native. Saturn in 2nd is said to give harsh speech and sullen/defiant expression and anti-social behaviour. (Ref: How to judge horoscopes Vol I) c) The shloka unambiguously states that it is dhana ( can include sanchita + aarjita dhana over a period of time) that would be adversely affected. Regards, Lakshmi Chandrashekhar <boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Dear Lakshmi,I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka. The reason of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house has to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this (for natural Zodiac). I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is not involved. The explanation of the dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if it does not protect the house he is posited in. This is why Saturn is not subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8 house. If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will observe that Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house (health) and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house indication he would have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita Dhana.Regards,Chandrashekhar.lakshmi ramesh wrote: Om Gurave Namah Namaste Chandrasekharji, Thanks for your detailed reply. I know that your own approach to astrology is very meticulous, because as you have demonstrated in the analysis of Ramesh’s chart, you’d never make even a minor prediction without evaluating all the influences not only in the natal chart but also in Navamsa. In this connection I fondly remember the conversation Zoran, you and I had in Puri. It is precisely this approach that makes your readings so meaningful. Sir, a person with your knowledge will know when a particular dictum is applicable and when it is not, by weighing the relative indications of the other permutations and combinations existing in the chart. A lay person will not know that and blind application and presumptions based on any dictum would ultimately hurt not only the astrologer but also bring disrepute to this sacred science. This is just my humble opinion. The very 2 nd shloka from BPHS: Dhanaadhipo gururyasya dhanabhaavagatho bhaveth Bhoumena sahitho vaapi dhanavaan sa naro bhaveth Sir, I guess this is the sloka you were presumably referring to. As Razdani had pointed out in an earlier mail, this sloka says that when Jupiter, the karaka for wealth is situated in dhanabhaava OR / AND (api) when he is situated therein with Mars, the native is wealthy. Mars is the natural 1st lord and Jupiter is the natural 9th lord and the their combination is the natural Lakshmi Yoga, which is especially effective if placed in the 2nd house, which is lorded in the natural zodiac by Venus, whose adhi devata is Maha Lakshmi !! Such a yoga would definitely bestow more riches than if jupiter were alone in 2nd house. Here Parasara does not seem to have given much weightage to Mars’s lordship of 8th house and Jupiter’s lordship of 12th house and seems to have concentrated only on their Moolatrikonas, whose results would ofcourse, dominate over that of own houses. Regarding the effects of Saturn in 2nd house, let me quote the 13th shloka which goes as Dhanemande dhanerdeeno vaatapitta kaphaaturah Dehaasthi pitta rogascha gunau swalpopi jaayathe Meaning, where Saturn is placed in 2nd house, the native is not only subjected to poverty but also subjected to various diseases or/and is also bereft of good qualities. Certainly does not look like “vriddhi” to me!! Ofcourse, the above slokas will have to be read, understood, modified and applied in the context of the planets’ dignities and functionalities. Please tell me if there are any other slokas in BPHS, which state contrarily and I would like to go through them for my benefit. As far as I can recall, the references to Shalivahana and Dharmaraja occur in the chapters dealing with vaiseshikamsas or the divisional dignities of raja yoga causing planets. The comments are based on a) higher vaiseshikamsas result only if the planets are posited repeatedly in several vargas in exaltation/own house , and thus are exceedingly strong. b) and since we are discussing raja yogas, the planets concerned are Kendra & trinal lords, hence functional benefics. It goes without saying that the usual riders apply here also, and the great people had their own share of troubles, but the rajayogas they had were so powerful that they ultimately triumphed and were immortalised in the memory of people. Any other reference in the BPHS to them, Sir? I could have missed it. Regards, Lakshmi Dear Lakshmi,This reference is given by Narayan Bhatt the author of Chamatkar Chintamani. He has not mentioned the Purana in which it appears. Had I known that I would certainly have given the same.Parashara's views are no different if one delves deep into what he has said about yogas involving Guru. Guru being termed benefic and the word being associated with Deeksha or Shiksha Guru, we sometimes fail to correlate the yogas to how Guru delivers results. Look at what Parashara says about results of Guru in second house and then think why he attributes Good results if he is in own house or conjuncts Mars. The implication is that otherwise these results would not ensue. About looking at a chart from non integrated point of view, I presume you are referring to the shlokas given. While I agree with you about an integrated approach, it is better not to forget that all Sages have given such references including the Great Parashara himself (Look at what he says about certain yogas in Shalivahana and Yudhishthira"s Chart in times to come). It does not mean that the sages are having a one sided approach. This is done to high light and illustrate a particular position of Graha/s in order to make it easy to understand for the laymen.Regards,Chandrashekhar. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Dear Lakshmi, The first thing that is to be understood when analyzing a shloka is that Sanskrit does not have comma or semicolon. How the sage would have constructed the shloka is at best a guess work, though one can attempt to understand his style of construction of shloka and its meter to make an educated guess. The question remains, leaving aside whether Mars associating with Jupiter is a must if Jupiter is not in own house (as I think it does), why would the Sage mention own house at all if he intended to convey Jupiter's occupation of 2nd house alone with out Mars is capable to give wealth? Also note that even Mars alone is said to be Viphala in giving results of 2nd Bhava. Both being friends, perhaps they reduce each other's negative qualities and give rise to Dhana yoga if of similar nature (harmful) in that place. The difference in your interpretation ,and mine, appears to revolve around whether Mars needs to be with Jupiter or not even if he does not occupy own house in 2nd. I have given my reasoning above. Parashara does not say Bhaumayute as he means if Jupiter is not in own house then Mars has to conjoin Jupiter in 2nd to give the results indicated, or at least that is the way I interpret the shloka. About other shlokas you have quoted, no doubt the Sage says that. However I prefer to apply all parameters in a structured order to derive meaning of a shloka. If we take only natural benefics being applicable, most of the Raj yogas would not come through. The reason being they are dependent on Trine and Kendra Lords coming together in trines or Kendra. Since number of natural Malefics is greater than natural benefics, most of what the sage has said would have to be discarded. I am certain that this not the case. I look at the text in the old fashioned way. I think that Gurus teaching shishyas personally, did not repeat what has been said once again every time the application of that principle was necessary. They perhaps expected the shishya to remember what ever had been told earlier and to modify results keeping in view all the variables. Even in my earlier posts I have said that how the results will fructify would depend on various other factors that we normally take into consideration and applying our Viveka. Had that not been the case, by now a computer program could have been written to make predictions. Saturn in 8th can definitely give sickness but does give long life and the house is referred to as Ayush Sthana, thus in keeping with the dictum Saturn does not kill protecting Ayush when placed in 8th house. I have already given the reason how Saturn's aspect on 11th could give loss of Dhana as it does aspect Aya Sthana. Much would also depend on the functional nature of Saturn as in case of Guru. The dictums give us the exceptions that are to be noted before coming to any conclusion and serve a very important pointer in interpretation of a chart. I hope this clarifies the confusion. Chandrashekhar. lakshmi ramesh wrote: Om Gurave Namah Namaste Chandrasekhar ji, I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka. Lakshmi: Sir, I am treating this entire exercise as a learning experience. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. The reason of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house has to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this (for natural Zodiac). Lakshmi: Sir, if you look carefully at the sloka, it does not mention the necessity of Mars being with Jupiter for providing wealth, but "adds" that such a combination would also make the native wealthy. The first condition is stated in the 1st line and if Parasara had truly insisted on the necessity of Jupiter & Mars combination, he would have used the word “Bhouma-yuthe” in the first line itself and would not have talked in a round about fashion. I am sure Parasara is also unlikely to use words like “api” & “sahithe” superfluously, or for the sake of rhetoric, as our Rishis are known for the extraordinary economy & accuracy of their expression. Where money matters are concerned 8th house indicates unearned wealth, lotteries etc, so even the 8th lordship of Mars would not adversely affect the wealth of the native. If Mars is not in his own house, I am sure he too can not overpower Jupiter and here we need to consider a lot more factors. I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is not involved. The explanation of the dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if it does not protect the house he is posited in. This is why Saturn is not subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8 house. Lakshmi: Sir, the much quoted dictum unfortunately implied otherwise. I beg your pardon if I am mistaken. And in this regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The gist is that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in which there is the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or its own lord, or when the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha like yuva etc, or in the 10th house. In all these situations the astrologer may indicate the well being of the house, and the house gives good results. On the other hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in combination with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is defeated in a planetary war or is in any one of the three states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or nidra), the astrologer may predict with certainty that the native will suffer losses in the things indicated by that house. Sir, I leave further interpretation to you, seeing that Jupiter is a natural benefic and Saturn is a natural malefic. If you want, I can type out the shlokas as well. If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will observe that Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house (health) and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house indication he would have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita Dhana. Lakshmi: That’s a lovely observation indeed and it is so very true! However a) 2nd house is also the maraka house and Saturn there can give sickness. Saturn in 8th will bestow longevity, but can also give the referred sicknesses. (ref “How to Judge Horoscopes , Vol II, by B V Raman). b) The reference to “good qualities” may include facial expression, speech etc, through which an impression is formed about the native. Saturn in 2nd is said to give harsh speech and sullen/defiant expression and anti-social behaviour. (Ref: How to judge horoscopes Vol I) c) The shloka unambiguously states that it is dhana ( can include sanchita + aarjita dhana over a period of time) that would be adversely affected. Regards, Lakshmi Chandrashekhar <boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Dear Lakshmi, I am glad you went to the trouble of looking at the shloka. The reason of mars being necessary with jupiter if Jupiter is not in own house has to do with Mars defeating or overpowering Jupiter when conjunct and therefore his 8th house lord ship only supports this (for natural Zodiac). I always have said about "Sthana Rakshati mandaH" so the question of vriddhi is not involved. The explanation of the dictum is that Saturn will not harm even if it does not protect the house he is posited in. This is why Saturn is not subject to Karaka Bhava Nasha when in 8 house. If you read the shloka on Saturn, quoted, carefully you will observe that Parashara is talking about the 7th house aspect of Saturn on 8th house (health) and his 10th drishti on 11th house (income). Had he intended 2nd house indication he would have talked about Face, Speech and Sanchita Dhana. Regards, Chandrashekhar. lakshmi ramesh wrote: Om Gurave Namah Namaste Chandrasekharji, Thanks for your detailed reply. I know that your own approach to astrology is very meticulous, because as you have demonstrated in the analysis of Ramesh’s chart, you’d never make even a minor prediction without evaluating all the influences not only in the natal chart but also in Navamsa. In this connection I fondly remember the conversation Zoran, you and I had in Puri. It is precisely this approach that makes your readings so meaningful. Sir, a person with your knowledge will know when a particular dictum is applicable and when it is not, by weighing the relative indications of the other permutations and combinations existing in the chart. A lay person will not know that and blind application and presumptions based on any dictum would ultimately hurt not only the astrologer but also bring disrepute to this sacred science. This is just my humble opinion. The very 2 nd shloka from BPHS: Dhanaadhipo gururyasya dhanabhaavagatho bhaveth Bhoumena sahitho vaapi dhanavaan sa naro bhaveth Sir, I guess this is the sloka you were presumably referring to. As Razdani had pointed out in an earlier mail, this sloka says that when Jupiter, the karaka for wealth is situated in dhanabhaava OR / AND (api) when he is situated therein with Mars, the native is wealthy. Mars is the natural 1st lord and Jupiter is the natural 9th lord and the their combination is the natural Lakshmi Yoga, which is especially effective if placed in the 2nd house, which is lorded in the natural zodiac by Venus, whose adhi devata is Maha Lakshmi !! Such a yoga would definitely bestow more riches than if jupiter were alone in 2nd house. Here Parasara does not seem to have given much weightage to Mars’s lordship of 8th house and Jupiter’s lordship of 12th house and seems to have concentrated only on their Moolatrikonas, whose results would ofcourse, dominate over that of own houses. Regarding the effects of Saturn in 2nd house, let me quote the 13th shloka which goes as Dhanemande dhanerdeeno vaatapitta kaphaaturah Dehaasthi pitta rogascha gunau swalpopi jaayathe Meaning, where Saturn is placed in 2nd house, the native is not only subjected to poverty but also subjected to various diseases or/and is also bereft of good qualities. Certainly does not look like “vriddhi” to me!! Ofcourse, the above slokas will have to be read, understood, modified and applied in the context of the planets’ dignities and functionalities. Please tell me if there are any other slokas in BPHS, which state contrarily and I would like to go through them for my benefit. As far as I can recall, the references to Shalivahana and Dharmaraja occur in the chapters dealing with vaiseshikamsas or the divisional dignities of raja yoga causing planets. The comments are based on a) higher vaiseshikamsas result only if the planets are posited repeatedly in several vargas in exaltation/own house , and thus are exceedingly strong. b) and since we are discussing raja yogas, the planets concerned are Kendra & trinal lords, hence functional benefics. It goes without saying that the usual riders apply here also, and the great people had their own share of troubles, but the rajayogas they had were so powerful that they ultimately triumphed and were immortalised in the memory of people. Any other reference in the BPHS to them, Sir? I could have missed it. Regards, Lakshmi Dear Lakshmi, This reference is given by Narayan Bhatt the author of Chamatkar Chintamani. He has not mentioned the Purana in which it appears. Had I known that I would certainly have given the same. Parashara's views are no different if one delves deep into what he has said about yogas involving Guru. Guru being termed benefic and the word being associated with Deeksha or Shiksha Guru, we sometimes fail to correlate the yogas to how Guru delivers results. Look at what Parashara says about results of Guru in second house and then think why he attributes Good results if he is in own house or conjuncts Mars. The implication is that otherwise these results would not ensue. About looking at a chart from non integrated point of view, I presume you are referring to the shlokas given. While I agree with you about an integrated approach, it is better not to forget that all Sages have given such references including the Great Parashara himself (Look at what he says about certain yogas in Shalivahana and Yudhishthira"s Chart in times to come). It does not mean that the sages are having a one sided approach. This is done to high light and illustrate a particular position of Graha/s in order to make it easy to understand for the laymen. Regards, Chandrashekhar. New and Improved Mail - 100MB free storage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Namaste Chandrasekharji, About other shlokas you have quoted, no doubt the Sage says that. However I prefer to apply all parameters in a structured order to derive meaning of a shloka. If we take only natural benefics being applicable, most of the Raj yogas would not come through. The reason being they are dependent on Trine and Kendra Lords coming together in trines or Kendra. Since number of natural Malefics is greater than natural benefics, most of what the sage has said would have to be discarded. I am certain that this not the case. Lakshmi: Sir, I request you to take a relook at the shlokas. When the sage talked about the conjunction of lords of 3,6,8,11, and 12 as causes for damaging the house, don't you think he was taking temporal functionality of planets also into account? Regards, Lakshmilakshmi ramesh wrote: And in this regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The gist is that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in which there is the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or its own lord, or when the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha like yuva etc, or in the 10th house. In all these situations the astrologer may indicate the well being of the house, and the house gives good results. On the other hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in combination with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is defeated in a planetary war or is in any one of the three states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or nidra), the astrologer may predict with certainty that the native will suffer losses in the things indicated by that house. vedic astrology/ To from this group, send an email to:vedic astrology Your use of is subject to the vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Dear Lakshmi, Note that I have said "If we take only natural benefics being applicable", so I do think that will also have to be considered. However I feel that functional nature also has to be considered before application of verses given by the sage and therefore I had given illustration to support what I am stating. regards, Chandrashekhar. lakshmi ramesh wrote: Om Gurave Namah Namaste Chandrasekharji, About other shlokas you have quoted, no doubt the Sage says that. However I prefer to apply all parameters in a structured order to derive meaning of a shloka. If we take only natural benefics being applicable, most of the Raj yogas would not come through. The reason being they are dependent on Trine and Kendra Lords coming together in trines or Kendra. Since number of natural Malefics is greater than natural benefics, most of what the sage has said would have to be discarded. I am certain that this not the case. Lakshmi: Sir, I request you to take a relook at the shlokas. When the sage talked about the conjunction of lords of 3,6,8,11, and 12 as causes for damaging the house, don't you think he was taking temporal functionality of planets also into account? Regards, Lakshmi lakshmi ramesh wrote: And in this regard, I would like to refer to the shlokas 14-16 of chapter 13 of BPHS, which deal with the prosperity or annihilation of the house. The gist is that the learned should predict the prosperity of the house in which there is the occupation of, or which is aspected by benefics or its own lord, or when the Lord of the house is in a good state/ avastha like yuva etc, or in the 10th house. In all these situations the astrologer may indicate the well being of the house, and the house gives good results. On the other hand, the house, whose lord is destroyed, or is in conjunction with malefics, or is not aspected by its own lord or by benefics or is in combination with the lords of the evil houses (3,6,8,11 and 12), or is defeated in a planetary war or is in any one of the three states/avasthas (vriddha, mrita or nidra), the astrologer may predict with certainty that the native will suffer losses in the things indicated by that house. vedic astrology/ vedic astrology vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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