My Thoughts Concerning The Skeptics...

[Guest guest]

All,

 

This is a really interesting Q, something that I have

encouraged all the time, but some people in some

quarters have tried to stamp it out, for varying

reasons....but, like the old saying goes, Truth

crushed to Earth, Shall raise Again....and so, it

begins...

 

I think that the whole question of one system being

better than another, is flawed to begin with; it's NOT

about what amounts to an Astrological urinating

contest; it's about trying to help people with the

knowledge that we have, be it Tropical, Sidereal,

Indian or Western, or anywhere in-between. As someone

who has, and continues to be, deeply immersed in what

I call a Comparitve Study of both Western and Indian

Astrological Systems, I can honestly say, that they

BOTH have great merit, and, in all fairness, either

systme, in the hnads of a skilled practicioner, could

do well, both on the analysis AND the predictive

sides.

 

I think, when we consider the Western System, we have

forgotten about WA's past - it has only been about a

Century since WA has turned away from its more Old

World Approach, and had taken on a more modern,

Humanized Approach. Of course, this can be attributed

to Dane Rudhyar, who, or course, was a student of many

Eastern Schools of thought. It was his ,"The Astrology

of Personality", that took WA from just predicting of

what seemed to fated events, and re-formulated it to

match the Western World, wherein which new

opportunities sprang up nearly everywhere. I think

that his work has been perhaps the greatest thing to

ever happen to WA.

 

But this does not negate the time-honored approaches

in WA as well - indeed, thanks to people like Rob

Hand, we are discovering that there are a wealth of

info, that can be brought to bear in Astrology, in the

Western Tradition, that bears a striking resemblence,

to Jyotish. It is a fertile field fro research.

 

I think that Western Astrologer summed-up all of these

points beautifully in his the Creative Astrologer, and

I would urge those so inclined to check out that book,

and it doesn;t matter WHAT system you use; it's

something that you can learn from.

 

Yes, it is true, that WA tendds to focus on Signs, and

in fact, Modern Astrology tends to focus on the

description of the Personality in general; this to

reflect the current attitude of our Society, and while

I would agree with Chris Kevill when he talks about

things going Spiritually Backward in some ways, we

cannot deny the great strides that the Western World

has taken to improve the Human Condition all over the

Planet...there is many more miles to go before we

sleep, but there has been great progress.

 

So, the reason why WA doesn't tend to deal with

prediction so much is due to the afore-mentioned

items, already laid out, and I don;t have a problem

with that, because I do not live in

turn-of-the-Century England, when Life was extremely

limited for nearly everyone; or, 19th Century America,

when Slavery was stil the Law of Land, because, back

then, irrespective of what kind of chart I had, the

reality, would have been, that I would have had a

difficult life. WA deals mainly with POTENTIALS that

the person has at their disposal, and I think that, as

India gets more and more into the Global Mainstream,

its Astrological view will have to reflect this view,

in order to keep pace with the times, and to continue

to be of service to the public. Such scholars as KN

Rao, and BV Raman, would agree with this.

 

In fact, Bepin Behari's entire series of books, are

written along these lines of thought; they're kind of

like an Indian AStrological version of Dane Rudhyar's

The Astrology of Personality, and those are books that

I would recommened reading.

 

But, while that;s said, we cannot deny the impressive

history and tradition of Jyotish, its sophistication,

its granduer, its scholarship; from Parasara, to

Varahimira, to Mantreshwara, and others, down to Hart

deFouw and KS Charak today. If we here in the West can

learn nothing else from the Indians, we could learn

the importance of maintaining an unbroken line of

Astrological Disciplic Succession, wherein which all

of our knowledge is passed down to following

generations, and those generations use that knowledge

to further their own researches, and so on. This is

what I hope will indeed happen, in the years to come.

 

Being a praticing AStrologer for some time now, and

having had a good grounding in Jyotish for over 2

years, I have been rigorously experimenting with both

styles, with many of my clients, as well as being

keenly observant of my own Life, and I have to say,

that both systems, comes shinig thru, in their own

distinct ways. Often, themes will shine thru in both

types of charts, and then, sometimes, it will only

come out in one of them. If nothing else then, using

both systems becomes an excellent way to double-check

one's analytical and predictive accuracy.

 

Many of my writings on this subject, along with the

analyses of many horoscope subjects, have appeared on

this List, at one point or another; all of them will

appear on my upcoming website, due for lauch this

Fall. My most recent thoughts on this subject, are

called, The Humanism of Western Astrology and Jyotish,

and is meant as an on-going series of articles,

outlining many of the points that need clarification,

as well as to applaud the instances where both systems

clearly work hand-in-hand. More to come on this - stay

tuned.

 

In closing, please let me say, that to continue the

debate as to which system, or zodiac, etc. is

absolutely pointless and only serves to seperate us

all - we need to check each other out, understand the

other side of the fence, and see what it is that we

can learn from each other. Ours, is a Global World,

now - our AStrology should reflect this.

 

Comments, Please..........

 

Peace,

Mu'Min M. Bey

Mu

 

 

 

Get Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!

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[Guest guest]

MUMin I enjoyed your comments.Are you familiar with the work of Robert

Powell,Hermetic Astrology.He is an ardent Siderealist,but one of his

colleagues William Bento,who studied with Dane Rudhyar has a view closer to

my own.The different systems reflect different levels of our being.The

sidereal chart does deal more with the soul and karma from life to life,and

one's dharma.It also shows your place in the world,caste or social

destiny.The tropical zodiac,geocentric chart shows more about the personality

at a more superficial level of identity.The draconic zodiac which uses the

position of the north node as 0 degrees aries shows some specifics of your

karma.The heliocentric sidereal chart shows a very deep level of your

spiritual identity.Hard helio aspects are very significant in terms of

spiritual challenges,altho the aspects must be very tight orbs to

function.You have the most freedom "apparent" at the tropical geocentric

level.The deeper you go into the depths of spiritual identity,the harder your

patterns are to alter.Their is a doctrine in the esoteric traditions that a

part of our being never leaves the sun sphere even while our soul incarnates

on earth,hence the relevance of the heliocentric perspective to that level of

our identity. Dave Birr

[Guest guest]

Dear Mu'Min Bey,

thank you for your thoughts.

i have learned valuable lessons

from w.a., but i have also

found its not based on cosmic

reality.[the precession of the planets;therefore the signs].

respectfully , karen townsend

again...this is no disrespect to your oponions

thanks for listening.

 

Mu'Min Bey wrote:

 

> All,

>

> This is a really interesting Q, something that I have

> encouraged all the time, but some people in some

> quarters have tried to stamp it out, for varying

> reasons....but, like the old saying goes, Truth

> crushed to Earth, Shall raise Again....and so, it

> begins...

>

> I think that the whole question of one system being

> better than another, is flawed to begin with; it's NOT

> about what amounts to an Astrological urinating

> contest; it's about trying to help people with the

> knowledge that we have, be it Tropical, Sidereal,

> Indian or Western, or anywhere in-between. As someone

> who has, and continues to be, deeply immersed in what

> I call a Comparitve Study of both Western and Indian

> Astrological Systems, I can honestly say, that they

> BOTH have great merit, and, in all fairness, either

> systme, in the hnads of a skilled practicioner, could

> do well, both on the analysis AND the predictive

> sides.

>

> I think, when we consider the Western System, we have

> forgotten about WA's past - it has only been about a

> Century since WA has turned away from its more Old

> World Approach, and had taken on a more modern,

> Humanized Approach. Of course, this can be attributed

> to Dane Rudhyar, who, or course, was a student of many

> Eastern Schools of thought. It was his ,"The Astrology

> of Personality", that took WA from just predicting of

> what seemed to fated events, and re-formulated it to

> match the Western World, wherein which new

> opportunities sprang up nearly everywhere. I think

> that his work has been perhaps the greatest thing to

> ever happen to WA.

>

> But this does not negate the time-honored approaches

> in WA as well - indeed, thanks to people like Rob

> Hand, we are discovering that there are a wealth of

> info, that can be brought to bear in Astrology, in the

> Western Tradition, that bears a striking resemblence,

> to Jyotish. It is a fertile field fro research.

>

> I think that Western Astrologer summed-up all of these

> points beautifully in his the Creative Astrologer, and

> I would urge those so inclined to check out that book,

> and it doesn;t matter WHAT system you use; it's

> something that you can learn from.

>

> Yes, it is true, that WA tendds to focus on Signs, and

> in fact, Modern Astrology tends to focus on the

> description of the Personality in general; this to

> reflect the current attitude of our Society, and while

> I would agree with Chris Kevill when he talks about

> things going Spiritually Backward in some ways, we

> cannot deny the great strides that the Western World

> has taken to improve the Human Condition all over the

> Planet...there is many more miles to go before we

> sleep, but there has been great progress.

>

> So, the reason why WA doesn't tend to deal with

> prediction so much is due to the afore-mentioned

> items, already laid out, and I don;t have a problem

> with that, because I do not live in

> turn-of-the-Century England, when Life was extremely

> limited for nearly everyone; or, 19th Century America,

> when Slavery was stil the Law of Land, because, back

> then, irrespective of what kind of chart I had, the

> reality, would have been, that I would have had a

> difficult life. WA deals mainly with POTENTIALS that

> the person has at their disposal, and I think that, as

> India gets more and more into the Global Mainstream,

> its Astrological view will have to reflect this view,

> in order to keep pace with the times, and to continue

> to be of service to the public. Such scholars as KN

> Rao, and BV Raman, would agree with this.

>

> In fact, Bepin Behari's entire series of books, are

> written along these lines of thought; they're kind of

> like an Indian AStrological version of Dane Rudhyar's

> The Astrology of Personality, and those are books that

> I would recommened reading.

>

> But, while that;s said, we cannot deny the impressive

> history and tradition of Jyotish, its sophistication,

> its granduer, its scholarship; from Parasara, to

> Varahimira, to Mantreshwara, and others, down to Hart

> deFouw and KS Charak today. If we here in the West can

> learn nothing else from the Indians, we could learn

> the importance of maintaining an unbroken line of

> Astrological Disciplic Succession, wherein which all

> of our knowledge is passed down to following

> generations, and those generations use that knowledge

> to further their own researches, and so on. This is

> what I hope will indeed happen, in the years to come.

>

> Being a praticing AStrologer for some time now, and

> having had a good grounding in Jyotish for over 2

> years, I have been rigorously experimenting with both

> styles, with many of my clients, as well as being

> keenly observant of my own Life, and I have to say,

> that both systems, comes shinig thru, in their own

> distinct ways. Often, themes will shine thru in both

> types of charts, and then, sometimes, it will only

> come out in one of them. If nothing else then, using

> both systems becomes an excellent way to double-check

> one's analytical and predictive accuracy.

>

> Many of my writings on this subject, along with the

> analyses of many horoscope subjects, have appeared on

> this List, at one point or another; all of them will

> appear on my upcoming website, due for lauch this

> Fall. My most recent thoughts on this subject, are

> called, The Humanism of Western Astrology and Jyotish,

> and is meant as an on-going series of articles,

> outlining many of the points that need clarification,

> as well as to applaud the instances where both systems

> clearly work hand-in-hand. More to come on this - stay

> tuned.

>

> In closing, please let me say, that to continue the

> debate as to which system, or zodiac, etc. is

> absolutely pointless and only serves to seperate us

> all - we need to check each other out, understand the

> other side of the fence, and see what it is that we

> can learn from each other. Ours, is a Global World,

> now - our AStrology should reflect this.

>

> Comments, Please..........

>

> Peace,

> Mu'Min M. Bey

> Mu

>

>

>

> Get Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!

> /

>

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>

> gjlist-

[Guest guest]

Chris A friend of mine John van Auken is one of the few people I know who

conducted side by side personality profiles of over a hundred people letting

them compare their planetary sign placements in both tropical and sidereal

and choosing which described them more accurately.the majority by a wide

margin chose the tropical placements.Those who did choose the sidereal

placements were ecstatic about the accuracy of their descriptions even tho

they were a small percentage of the total.What level of their identity were

they in touch with may be the key question.Dave Birr

[Guest guest]

Mu:

 

A pleasure to read your posts, as always. My strong anti-WA/psychology

views notwithstanding, I really am or two minds when it comes to using both

systems and how to integrate them in a reasonable way. The difficulty lies

in reconciling two zodiacs: how can both be "correct"? It's quite possible

that they are "measuring" two different things or levels of reality.

Therefore, apparent logical flaws such as someone having Aries rising

sidereally has Taurus rising tropically needn't concern us. Or should it?

How can it NOT concern us since even jyotish, which puts fall more emphasis

on outcomes and events, ascribes some basic personality traits to rising

signs and subsequent house placement of lagnesh, etc.? These two signs

seem so different, can they both be right? My guess is still no, but

others may have another view. I'd love to hear how both can be "right".

 

>

>I think that the whole question of one system being

>better than another, is flawed to begin with; it's NOT

>about what amounts to an Astrological urinating

>contest; it's about trying to help people with the

>knowledge that we have, be it Tropical, Sidereal,

>Indian or Western, or anywhere in-between. As someone

>who has, and continues to be, deeply immersed in what

>I call a Comparitve Study of both Western and Indian

>Astrological Systems, I can honestly say, that they

>BOTH have great merit, and, in all fairness, either

>systme, in the hnads of a skilled practicioner, could

>do well, both on the analysis AND the predictive

>sides.

 

Well, OK, but can you name any study of WA (or jyotish for that matter)

that fares better than chance in predicting events? To me, this is crux of

the problem. Even if we lower the bar, and allow for correct assessment of

a person's basic psychological disposition -- and this is a very tricky

area as far as testing and measuring goes -- can you cite any WA

study/demonstration that beat the odds of randomness? I'm still looking

for that one too. Sure, at this point, some of us may beg off and wonder

aloud: who cares what "science" and all those mainstream people think? I

more or less agree with that view. I don't really care about astrology's

acceptance by the mainstream. What I DO care about very much is making

astrology as useful and accurate as possible. That is the role of research

and testing. Not to offer olive branches to the media and science, but to

raise our own abilities and discover which postulates work and which don't.

 

Once we stop discriminating between systems, we stop being able to make

good predictions. Without an ability to even see which system is more

correct, what possible service are we giving to clients? To my mind,

correct prediction is the only valid quality control for doing good

astrology. That's because it's far too easy for clients to say "yes,

that's me exactly" when describing their personality. Getting past events

is another matter entirely, and I think is perfectly valid as a means to

decide which system is more accurate. But if you're interested in

personality traits, that won't wash, will it?

 

>

>I think, when we consider the Western System, we have

>forgotten about WA's past - it has only been about a

>Century since WA has turned away from its more Old

>World Approach, and had taken on a more modern,

>Humanized Approach. Of course, this can be attributed

>to Dane Rudhyar, who, or course, was a student of many

>Eastern Schools of thought. It was his ,"The Astrology

>of Personality", that took WA from just predicting of

>what seemed to fated events, and re-formulated it to

>match the Western World, wherein which new

>opportunities sprang up nearly everywhere.

 

A good astrologer should be able to predict these opportunties. (I'm not

saying that *I* can all the time, either, I just think one should be able

to) It's got nothing to do with the alleged differences between eastern and

western societies.

 

>

>So, the reason why WA doesn't tend to deal with

>prediction so much is due to the afore-mentioned

>items, already laid out, and I don;t have a problem

>with that, because I do not live in

>turn-of-the-Century England, when Life was extremely

>limited for nearly everyone; or, 19th Century America,

>when Slavery was stil the Law of Land, because, back

>then, irrespective of what kind of chart I had, the

>reality, would have been, that I would have had a

>difficult life. WA deals mainly with POTENTIALS that

>the person has at their disposal,

 

A career breakthrough is a career breakthrough, no matter where or when you

are. I think this line of argument doesn't stand up to scruntiny. As if

the West is somehow outside of the karmic effects in the universe and

therefore, the horoscope itself! It may sound crass, but a strong 10th

house for an English peasant in the middle ages must have brought some

improvement, no matter how apparently small in our view, in his

status/"career" during its dasha just as it would now for an American

entrepreneur. The only difference is one of degree, which is the product

of social context. Aren't we, as humans, all subject to the same forces?

 

>

>In closing, please let me say, that to continue the

>debate as to which system, or zodiac, etc. is

>absolutely pointless and only serves to seperate us

>all - we need to check each other out, understand the

>other side of the fence, and see what it is that we

>can learn from each other. Ours, is a Global World,

>now - our AStrology should reflect this.

 

I think inquiry and skepticism is healthy and necessary to avoid the

pitfalls of a religious-like insularity. When we stop asking questions

about what works and finding good standards for predictions, then astrology

is doomed to become another Flat Earth Society.

 

Chris

[Guest guest]

John van Auken was a long time student of the Edgar Cayce readings who worked

with Ry Redd who was a student of B. V. Raman,as well as with western

astrologers.His research conducted in 1994-95 involved several hundred

people,they used the timecycles software for macs as a source for keywords

for planetary placements and the ascendant.People were asked to circle the

keywords that accurately described their personality.They were not given the

planetary placements ,just the keywords to evaluate keyed to their tropical

and sidereal placements.Most found the tropical keywords more accurate,but

some did find sidereal keywords fit better.Some did not find that either

seemed to fit better than the other.This data has not been published yet,but

I hope that it is someday.Dave Birr

[Guest guest]

Chris Those are good points.How much people internalize others descriptions

of them,or categorize themselves as introvert or extrovert,thinker or

feeler,practical or imaginative,etc. can certainly affect self report data,as

can their genuine level of self knowledge which is not exactly a priority in

our uncontemplative culture.On the other hand if we assume that people have

no ability for accurate self knowledge it would make almost any astrology

research on personality,impossible.Feedback from clients as to the value of

our astrological input presumes some inteligence exists in our clients.I

certainly have recieved western astrology readings which were off the

mark,especially because of cultural filters of the astrologer and level of

identity issues. dave Birr

[Guest guest]

Chris A friend of mine John van Auken is one of the few people I know

who

conducted side by side personality profiles of over a hundred people

letting

them compare their planetary sign placements in both tropical and

sidereal

and choosing which described them more accurately.the majority by a wide

margin chose the tropical placements.Those who did choose the sidereal

placements were ecstatic about the accuracy of their descriptions even

tho

they were a small percentage of the total.What level of their identity

were

they in touch with may be the key question.Dave Birr

 

 

----------------

 

 

Is John van Auken primarily a Tropicalist before doing this?

 

Would that affect his ability to present Sidereal meaning?

[Guest guest]

Dave:

 

That's interesting for sure but a couple of cautions. First, we must be

wary about letting people self-select who have in all likelihood grown up

knowing and internalizing their tropical Sun sign. They identify with it,

possibly at the expense of acknowledging other facets of their personality.

So someone who reads "Taurus" in the newspaper every day, it likely more

or less familiar with Taurus-like characteristics and may have decided that

they fit them adequately. This may be a surface level of reality that you

mention. And do you mean all the planets sign positions? This is where

things get muddled since there are an array of planets to choose from.

Taurus Sun, you say, but you're a go-getter? No problem, you have Mars in

Aries or some such. It's really very difficult to nail these traits down

using signs. Because of this problem of self-reporting, it would be better

to administer some sort of general psychological profile test and then link

the characteristics revealed with accepted characteristics of each sign.

 

Chris

 

At 02:46 PM 6/28/00 EDT, you wrote:

>Chris A friend of mine John van Auken is one of the few people I know who

>conducted side by side personality profiles of over a hundred people letting

>them compare their planetary sign placements in both tropical and sidereal

>and choosing which described them more accurately.the majority by a wide

>margin chose the tropical placements.Those who did choose the sidereal

>placements were ecstatic about the accuracy of their descriptions even tho

>they were a small percentage of the total.What level of their identity were

>they in touch with may be the key question.Dave Birr

>

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