Skeptics

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 06/25/2000 9:29:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

skinbags writes:

 

<< I feel one of the biggest problems is the people

who have been western astrologers and then changed to become Vedic

astrologers. They still cling to certain aspects of their former

craft rather than coming out and admitting they have mislead and

misinformed people for all the years they were casting charts with

the tropical zodiac. >>

 

. Oh, boy. I am a Western astrologer who is now learning Vedic. Are you

of the opinion that the entire Western tradition is simply wrong? Astrology

has always been a way for me to understand my inner mechanics and other

people's behavior -- I have no interest though, in explaining others to

themsleves, which is where the problem of being 'right' or 'wrong' comes in.

 

Do you think that the person who takes meaning away from a book on Western

astrology, or a Western reading, is then operating with the wrong meaning?

This is an interesting concept, since in the Western tradition much stress is

placed on personal resonance and healing -- and I can't see how this could be

'wrong', or for that matter, how any reasonably helpful self-concept could be

wrong.

 

You know, I have a terrible relationship with my mother, and in a lot of

somewhat invisible ways this relationship has ruined my life. I've worked

very hard to get over this, I've tried everything to get over or through or

past it, but it's just permanent, the way I feel about it. It wasn't until I

did my mother's Western chart that I saw her Aries moon in the twelfth house

and her Taurus ascendant, and reading them in the Western tradition really

helped me a lot to understand, at least, why she is the way she is, and what

happens when my scorpio (western) moon faces off with this Aries,

passive-aggressive in the twelfth, but deadly combative nonetheless. So

that's the Western tradition, with an emphasis on understanding. It helps,

when you are hurt, to understand why.

 

I think the emphasis on psychology in the Western tradition is there because

we are a psychological bunch, us Westerners. Astrology in the states has

evolved into a jungian psychlogical tool, a way to understand the self

through symbols. If you're not interested in this, or feel it really can't be

useful to you, a western style lecture on "relationships" probably made you

insane with frustration; your framework was simply different than the other

people's in the room. As western to vedic astrologer has to switch mileus

depending on who he is speaking to, because the very approach to reality in

each system is very different. It's like changing dimensions.

 

It might have been too much for this lecturer to accomplish, to rearrange

the reality of her audience. I certainly wouldn't want to do it. .

 

Love,

 

Vox

[Guest guest]

Dear Das,

 

Astrology will never have any credibility as long as western

astrology in its present form is around. This psuedo-psychological

hogwash they insist on pushing out is infuriating to me as a serious

Vedic astrologer. I feel one of the biggest problems is the people

who have been western astrologers and then changed to become Vedic

astrologers. They still cling to certain aspects of their former

craft rather than coming out and admitting they have mislead and

misinformed people for all the years they were casting charts with

the tropical zodiac. I only recently had the misfortune to attend a

lecture here in Australia with one particular woman, (who shall

remain unnamed), who is hailed as a Vedic astrologer in America, but

changed into a western astrologer at this workshop because the room

was full of western astrologers. She was simply pathetic as all we

got was a hybrid of western and Vedic astrology that made no sense.

The workshop was suppossed to be on relationships and judging by the

nonsense she was spruiking it was obvious she had little experience

of either love or sexual relationships. When I returned home my old

Pundit called me and asked "Did you ask her how many relationships

she had destroyed?" If he'd only known how right he was.

[Guest guest]

gjlist , VoxIndigo@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 06/25/2000 9:29:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> skinbags@o... writes:

>

> << I feel one of the biggest problems is the people

> who have been western astrologers and then changed to become Vedic

> astrologers. They still cling to certain aspects of their former

> craft rather than coming out and admitting they have mislead and

> misinformed people for all the years they were casting charts with

> the tropical zodiac. >>

>

> . Oh, boy. I am a Western astrologer who is now learning Vedic.

Are you

> of the opinion that the entire Western tradition is simply wrong?

Astrology

> has always been a way for me to understand my inner mechanics and

other

> people's behavior -- I have no interest though, in explaining

others to

> themsleves, which is where the problem of being 'right' or 'wrong'

comes in.

>

> Do you think that the person who takes meaning away from a book on

Western

> astrology, or a Western reading, is then operating with the wrong

meaning?

> This is an interesting concept, since in the Western tradition much

stress is

> placed on personal resonance and healing -- and I can't see how

this could be

> 'wrong', or for that matter, how any reasonably helpful self-

concept could be

> wrong.

>

> You know, I have a terrible relationship with my mother, and in a

lot of

> somewhat invisible ways this relationship has ruined my life. I've

worked

> very hard to get over this, I've tried everything to get over or

through or

> past it, but it's just permanent, the way I feel about it. It

wasn't until I

> did my mother's Western chart that I saw her Aries moon in the

twelfth house

> and her Taurus ascendant, and reading them in the Western tradition

really

> helped me a lot to understand, at least, why she is the way she is,

and what

> happens when my scorpio (western) moon faces off with this Aries,

> passive-aggressive in the twelfth, but deadly combative

nonetheless. So

> that's the Western tradition, with an emphasis on understanding. It

helps,

> when you are hurt, to understand why.

>

> I think the emphasis on psychology in the Western tradition is

there because

> we are a psychological bunch, us Westerners. Astrology in the

states has

> evolved into a jungian psychlogical tool, a way to understand the

self

> through symbols. If you're not interested in this, or feel it

really can't be

> useful to you, a western style lecture on "relationships" probably

made you

> insane with frustration; your framework was simply different than

the other

> people's in the room. As western to vedic astrologer has to switch

mileus

> depending on who he is speaking to, because the very approach to

reality in

> each system is very different. It's like changing dimensions.

>

> It might have been too much for this lecturer to accomplish, to

rearrange

> the reality of her audience. I certainly wouldn't want to do

it. .

>

> Love,

>

> Vox

 

 

Don't take me too seriously Vox!! I was born with Jupiter, Mars and

Mercury in the ascendent and my Navamsha ascendent is Aries with Mars

exalted in the 10th house with Mercury and Rahu, so I'm a red hot

Mars man. My tongue is far too sharp for my own good!!

I really have no problem with people changing to Vedic astrology but

leave Chiron and mid points and some of the other stuff behind. We

haven't even observed one full cycle of Pluto yet, so lets stop there

for now. Put up your chart details so I can see what the story with

your mother is, I have had a shocking relationship with my Mother

also. Sorry if I upset anybody else.

[Guest guest]

Hi Vox,

 

What you said, actually said, is all well and good. You basically

pointed out alot of the side benefits of being involved in the

astrological process, which does take place in Western Astrology, and

that process is revealing by nature, and leads one to things which are

good for us all.

 

The specific point though is that astronomers are always going to have

problems with the Western Zodiac, because when they say "Aries", they

mean "those specific stars", and Sidereal is that real zodiac, so

Western Siderelists and Vedic Astrologers are "rightly situated" in

alignment with the real, original, physical zodiac.

 

I think the fact that back when Greek astrology was rolling, the zodiac

of the Tropical calculation DID align with the real physical zodiac

more, and the fact that India has always used the Sidereal zodiac, is

enough proof for anyone that the real zodiac is the one to which we

should be paying attention. Then there's the most obvious point of all,

that if you say "Aries", you should mean "Aries", and not 23 degrees

Aries to 23 Degrees Taurus, which is the now Tropical Aries.

 

But everything you said, in spirit, which is how it sounded, spiritual

and intellectual, yes, those things found around also the Western

Astrological pursuit are helpful. I think the hitting gets more correct

when the charts are seen Sidereally, and moreso if read Vedicly, which

sadly is not a way yet known to many, though it's growing rapidly.

 

I certainly don't want to belittle at all, the progressive and spiritual

intentions and accomplishments of anyone who has had such positive

experiences because of associating with any Astrological system. I am

for such growth, and a member of that team. I simply have found, and

I've had the pleasure of heavy contact with Vedic, that Vedic really

matches life as it really is. On the contrary, my contact with Western

Astrologers, their readings and words about my chart, were more vague in

general, and more inbued with the filler of somewhat standard psychology

type speaking, standard "how life is" type phrases, which are a grab bag

one kindof acquires over time through contact with other persons

thinking this way. It's not REALLY astrology as much as Vedic is. It's

more "other stuff".

 

All these facts, scientific and my own personal experiences, lead to me

the same conclusion, that one is more "real" and the other more "a

culture".

 

Therefore, in the interests of re-presenting Astrology to the modern

world, which is highly scientific in approach, we are acting in the best

interests of the mission to learn and present that astrology which is

more hard hitting, verifiable, scientific, and mundanely correct. This

last one requies that the signs be right. To talk a human, you don't

need to be so exacting, because just a few openers and you can have a

good session. A few openers can be provided in Western Astrology by the

fact that they have many of the planets in the correct houses. I have

Jupiter in the 9th in both systems, so some connection to religion is a

given. I have Venus in the first in both. So some connection to Venus

personally is a given, and no matter how one sees and words that back to

me, I'm going to say "Yeah, right on, because it's ALL been true for me

to some degree.

 

So Western Astrology, when the chart is read, does get SOME hits.

Definitely. Mainly because of the planets and houses, and the fact that

oddly enough, Westerns still use the traditional (read: correct)

significations for the signs and planets. For example, they say Venus is

love, beauty, pleasure, and so do we, and they say the first house is

the overall self, and so do we, so you get some hits there, and same

with Jupiter being a teacher, and the ninth house being religion, so

there they get something right still, because it's only the Zodiac

that's wrong.

 

They see my Jupiter in Capricorn, but sidereally it's in Sagittarius.

The way I understand these significations, it DOES make sense to see

Sag. for my Jupiter stuff, and NOT Capricorn.

 

For example, I was a leader in the Hare Krishna movement, which was not

and is not a "practical" movement at all. I have always been FIERY in my

pursuit and presentation of religion. My father was a naval officer and

was in intense free fire battle zones, a signification of the arrow of

Dhanus, known Vedicly to be connected with battle, to wit, Richard

Nixon, who led the largest bombing campaign in World History, has many

planets sidereally in Sagittarius.

 

I have high goals religiously, nothing pragmatic here. Capricorn does

NOT fit and Sagittarius does, big time. Capricorn represents a strong

low lyeing creature, and Sagittarius is a transformationally inducing,

highly arrogant, highly Pitta fire sign. That's much more descriptive of

my approach to and experience with Guru, God and Religion.

 

Also, Venus in Taurus in the first in Western, verse Venus in Aries in

the first Sidereally, is also clear to me. My experiences with woman,

and relationships, and the arts, have been all but peaceful. They have

been fire-filled all along. I won't go further into the details of this

one, but I do wish to say that this is so clear to me, that it's ARIES

and not TAURUS which is directing my Venus. So clear.

 

Also, I so much more fit Moon in Aquarius than Pisces. That's another

very clear thing to me. I know many people who have Sidereal Pisces

Moons, and they are all pretty clearly having that very wishy washy

vague Pisces mood in life...very accepting of everything, which fits the

"nothing left to achieve" finality of Pisces and the mood of water.

 

I on the other hand think, act and feel very much the struggle of

lifting water in a pot full of holes, and the burden of this

transformational duty, trying to raise that which has a tendency to flow

downward. Thus, the Aquarian feels one with the struggling masses, hence

the brotherhood aspect. I am subject to the usual Aquarian darknesses

caused by the Saturnian lordship.

 

The Pisces Moon people I know, do NOT SEEM ARIAN at all. They would have

Aries Western Moons. There's no way to mistake this one. The people with

Sideral Aries Moons are fast, quick, love simple jokes, like to poke

others and be rough in a jestful way. The one's who then have Sidereal

Taurus Moons are more slothful, slower to get going, more attached to

routine, and so on. It's so VERY CLEAR when you use Sidereal positions.

 

If a Western Astrology avoids all use of Signs, they will find their hit

rathe increasing. As soon as they use signs, it's going to be a struggle

for the client to hear truth in the words. It will be a "reach" for both

parties, and this is where it falls apart in those sessions. Sticking to

planets and houses, there is more correctness as this often correct,

even though they use only the unequal house systems primarily such as Placidus.

 

Thanks,

 

Das Goravani

 

 

 

 

 

 

2852 Willamette St # 353

Eugene OR USA 97405

 

or

Fax: 541-343-0344

 

"Goravani Jyotish"

Vedic/Hindu Astrology Software

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 06/25/2000 3:00:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

writes:

 

<<

Also, I so much more fit Moon in Aquarius than Pisces. That's another

very clear thing to me. I know many people who have Sidereal Pisces

Moons, and they are all pretty clearly having that very wishy washy

vague Pisces mood in life...very accepting of everything, which fits the

"nothing left to achieve" finality of Pisces and the mood of water. >>

 

 

I've been trying to do some of this, myself. Sagittarius is lagna in both

systems, although I have to adjust my birthtime to make it come out right in

a Western chart, by about a minute and half, to get out of Capricorn zero

degrees. I never understood that one, but I accepted the fact that Saturn was

the ruler of my chart; I have severely low energy most of the time, and when

it's high it's not dependable at all.

 

Pushing my ascendant back into Sagittarius in my western chart showed a

severely afflicted Jupiter, in the fifth house in Taurus, retrograde, and

squared by Saturn, as chart ruler. Also, tropically, I have a scorpio moon

-- this was what I thought was responsible for my rotten personality. And,

tropically, I have neptune conjunct moon in scorpio, which was what I thought

accounted for the rest of my rotten personality.

 

In a Vedic chart, my moon is Libra -- a Sag Lagna/ Libra moon person with Sun

in Virgo is simply not the same as a Libra sun, Sag ascendent, Scorpio moon

person. My problem is the first one doesn't seem to fit me, although in the

rest of the Vedic chart there are some undeniable, completely uncanny hits. I

had to think about this a long time, because I had to either simply not have

a rotten personality anymore, or try to figure out another way my personality

was rotten according to the Vedic system.

 

Finally, I decided it had to be Ketu in the first house in Sag Lagna that

made me this way. I took a lot of reasoning to get to this though, which

makes me hesitate in agreeing that either way is right or wrong.

 

Love,

 

Vox

[Guest guest]

To wit, someone named "skinbags" and he writes intensely on principal,

and has a ton of fire in the chart.

 

Skinbags is a drastic portrayal of the body, which is an object that

others on the spiritual path hold in a much more patronizing and opulant

way- it's very akin to the Hare Krishna mood to call the body "a skinbag

made out of blood, puss, urine and stool". This quote I heard MANY times.

 

So see when fire is strong, these heavy, intense and poignant moods come

out, because fire people need clear flesh-related, blunt, facts on which

to move and stand, otherwise they can really sin like crazy. Unless they

are held in check by intense things they can see, they can pounce

forward like wild tigers in life. It's not good talking subtle to them,

and they don't do it naturally either. They like strength and challenge.

They eat the weak.

 

But there are other types of creatures, who are by nature more subtle,

and prefer a very different tone, and are not happy with the strong fire

mood. I suffer a mix personally, with a strong fire trine rising and a

lunar air trine supported by Earth placements in it's 4th. So these two

complexes battle with each other in me.

 

To wit.

 

 

 

 

das goravani

[Guest guest]

Chris I believe James Braha is a fan of western aspects which I also find to

work very reliablely including the outer planets.While the western

understanding of the nodes is very different,I find that this also works,see

especially Astrology for the Soul by Jan Spiller.Dave Birr

[Guest guest]

Dear Das, Vox and Everyone:

 

I can't help but think that much of this discussion is moot given the lack

of any clear evidence for or against the superiority of the sidereal

zodiac. As as former western astrologer who has also "converted" to the

sidereal zodiac and much of jyotish, I think the emphasis on signs by

EITHER camp is somewhat misguided. The sidereal zodiac is better because

of rulerships and house placements. Since these are determined by the

Ascendant and TOB, it stands to reason that these more personalized markers

will be more descriptive of a native's life than simple sign placement.

Reading people's personalities from lagna and Moon sign is just so

simplistic and general, I honestly don't think there's a falsifiable

proposition there that could be tested. In the tropical zodiac, I was

Aquarius rising, and sidereally this moves to Capricorn. Really, both are

correct in some measure (I'm independent and cerebral but grumpy and

practical too)but that really begs the question: if both can be right, then

neither has any explanatory power. To me, the truth value of jyotish and

the sidereal zodiac comes house placements: e.g. from where the Asc. ruler

is located (mine's in the 12th -- definitely on to something there!) and

what aspects other planets are making on Saturn. I just don't think the

debate between zodiacs can be properly conducted through signs alone.

 

This underscores the larger problem of appropriate levels of proof.

Western astrology doesn't work largely because its based on a

pseudoscience: psychology. Psychology, in both of its warm and fuzzy and

hard core Freudian sides, contained little or no scientifically provable

postulates. Pschoanalysis is a theory only, and can never be conclusively

proven using empirical data. Humanist psychology fares little better on

that score. Slowly, we here in the West are waking up to the bogusness of

therapeutic culture. Too often, people who go to shrinks or counsellors,

never experience a cure or even relief. They become chronic users of a

system that encourages dependence on the therapist and their own self

indulgence. Then, they might get put onto drugs, which only "work" in a

minority of cases. Such is the fate of a society that discarded religion en

masse only to replace it with shopping. There are fewer and fewer places

for people to go to find answers to questions about life and existence.

 

Western astrology fills the heads of clients with untestable propositions

about themselves and their potentials. I remember reading this book

shortly before "discovering" jyotish called Recent Advances in Natal

Astrology, by Geoffrey Dean. I think it was published in 1977. It's

probably out of print now, but basically it contained a systematic review

of all known scientific testing of western astrology. Let me tell you,

this is a sobering book for any western astrologer. Aside from the

Gauquelin study, which isn't really western astrology per se, there was

nothing in the hundreds of tests and studies on astrology that stood up to

scrunity. All the sign-based stuff on profession (Pisceans are more likely

to be poets, etc)personality traits (Aries are outgoing) found no

statistical correlation. The book was interesting as Dean was a former

astrologer himself (like one of the people on this Fox TV show) but gave it

up when he had seen the light. Too bad he didn't check out jyotish.

 

One thing that puzzles me is how a respected jyotish astrologer like James

Braha can still praise the western system for its psychological insights

while using jyotish for life events and outcomes. Any thoughts on this?

 

Chris

 

 

 

r At 07:53 PM 6/25/00 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 06/25/2000 3:00:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> writes:

>

><<

> Also, I so much more fit Moon in Aquarius than Pisces. That's another

> very clear thing to me. I know many people who have Sidereal Pisces

> Moons, and they are all pretty clearly having that very wishy washy

> vague Pisces mood in life...very accepting of everything, which fits the

> "nothing left to achieve" finality of Pisces and the mood of water. >>

>

>

>I've been trying to do some of this, myself. Sagittarius is lagna in both

>systems, although I have to adjust my birthtime to make it come out right in

>a Western chart, by about a minute and half, to get out of Capricorn zero

>degrees. I never understood that one, but I accepted the fact that Saturn

was

>the ruler of my chart; I have severely low energy most of the time, and when

>it's high it's not dependable at all.

>

>Pushing my ascendant back into Sagittarius in my western chart showed a

>severely afflicted Jupiter, in the fifth house in Taurus, retrograde, and

>squared by Saturn, as chart ruler. Also, tropically, I have a scorpio moon

>-- this was what I thought was responsible for my rotten personality. And,

>tropically, I have neptune conjunct moon in scorpio, which was what I

thought

>accounted for the rest of my rotten personality.

>

>In a Vedic chart, my moon is Libra -- a Sag Lagna/ Libra moon person with

Sun

>in Virgo is simply not the same as a Libra sun, Sag ascendent, Scorpio moon

>person. My problem is the first one doesn't seem to fit me, although in the

>rest of the Vedic chart there are some undeniable, completely uncanny

hits. I

>had to think about this a long time, because I had to either simply not have

>a rotten personality anymore, or try to figure out another way my

personality

>was rotten according to the Vedic system.

>

>Finally, I decided it had to be Ketu in the first house in Sag Lagna that

>made me this way. I took a lot of reasoning to get to this though, which

>makes me hesitate in agreeing that either way is right or wrong.

>

>Love,

>

>Vox

>

>------

>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!

>1. Fill in the brief application

>2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds

>3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR

>http://click./1/5197/1/_/913692/_/961977227/

>------

>

>

>gjlist-

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave:

 

Yes, I know Braha uses western aspects and the outers (as do I) but I was

wondering about sign placement specfically. I mean, would he treat someone

with Aries rising sidereally as a Taurus rising from a psychological point

of view?

 

Chris

 

At 06:26 PM 6/26/00 EDT, you wrote:

>Chris I believe James Braha is a fan of western aspects which I also find to

>work very reliablely including the outer planets.While the western

>understanding of the nodes is very different,I find that this also works,see

>especially Astrology for the Soul by Jan Spiller.Dave Birr

>

>------

>Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

>http://click./1/4633/1/_/913692/_/962058390/

>------

>

>

>gjlist-

>

>

>

>

>