Continuing the disciplic succession

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

> There was one diksa guru: Srila Prabhupada. Even if

> he meant "expand by one

> more guru" only, the ritvik idea is defeated.

 

Surely you mean ..

 

> There was one diksa guru: Srila Prabhupada. Even if

> he meant "expand by one

> more *diksa* guru" only, the ritvik idea is

defeated.

 

Since he never even suggested such a thing your post

is hopelessly irrelevant. Your getting a bit desperate

here are you not?

 

 

 

 

--- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > 1) "Suppose" means that 10,000 is not the EXACT

> > number, but an approximation of the number of

> > disciples Srila Prabhupada had at the time.

>

> No comment. This is your speculation.

>

> > 2) Otherwise the "argument or explanation" does

> not

> > work, because didn't you notice the word "expand"

> in

> > the quote? What is it we are expanding

> > FROM?

> > - i.e. who were these (whatever EXACT number)

> Diksa

> > Gurus from which we were 'expanding' to 10

> million?

> > You need some Diksa Gurus to BEGIN with in order

> to

> > expand their number.

>

> There was one diksa guru: Srila Prabhupada. Even if

> he meant "expand by one

> more guru" only, the ritvik idea is defeated.

>

> ys Ramakanta dasa

>

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

As we have agreed, I will deal with one point only at the same time before

jumping to other points like the May 28 conversation or whatever.

 

>From your text I extract following answer to my question "what would you

accept as an authorization?":

 

If the guru says "Now you become acarya. You become authorised."

 

Is that correct? Is that your position?

 

Now my next question is:

 

As you probably know Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has not

authorized any of his disciples to be the next acarya.

 

(In the purport to CC Adi 12.8 Srila Prabhupada said: "Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples

to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He

did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya.")

 

Do you accept Srila Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru, although until

the time of the departure of his guru he has not been instructed to be the

next acarya? If yes, why?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

In the Srimad Bhagavatam 11th Canto, 11th Chapter Krishnan instructs

Uddhava, " One should take initiation by the procedures mentioned in

the Vedas, Pancaratra and other, similar literatures."

 

Now our ritvik friends are telling us that we not are to obey Krishna's

instruction.

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

You wrote in your last post .....

>"Now my next question is:

 

>As you probably know Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

>Thakur has not authorized any of his disciples to be

>the next acarya."

 

No. Please read this ....

 

Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader

of Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He's asking when did you become the

spiritual leader of Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: WHEN MY GURU MAHARAJA ORDERED ME. This is

the guru-parampara.

Indian: Did it...

Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily.

A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE'S ORDERED BY HIS GURU.

That's all. OTHERWISE NOBODY CAN BECOME GURU.

Indian woman 2: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sadhi mam prapannam. "I am

surrendered to You. Whatever You say, I shall carry

out." That's all.

Indian man: When did he tell you to...?

Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me?

And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very

insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?

Indian man: No, I am just curious when...

Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit.

YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT ONE CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE IS

ORDERED BY HIS GURU, this much.[EMPH.ADDED]

 

So from the above it is clear that Srila Prabhupada

WAS ORDERED by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur.

 

Ramakant has quoted from CC Adi 12.8 with the

intention of finding some contradiction in the above.

 

"Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his

departure, requested all his disciples to form a

governing body and conduct missionary activities

cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to

become the next acarya.")

 

Let us look at the whole purport and NOT just the 2

sentences presented to us by Ramakant prabhu.........

 

1]The words daivera karana indicate that by dint of

providence, or by God's will, the followers of Advaita

Acarya divided into two parties.

2]Such disagreement among the disciples of one acarya

is also found among the members of the Gaudiya Matha.

3]In the beginning, during the presence of Om

Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Astottara-sata

Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

Prabhupada, all the disciples worked in agreement; but

just after his disappearance, they disagreed.

4]One party strictly followed the instructions of

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but another group

created their own concoction about executing his

desires.

5]Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of

his departure, requested all his disciples to form a

governing body and conduct missionary activities

cooperatively.

6]He did not instruct a particular man to become the

next acarya.

7]But just after his passing away, his leading

secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy

the post of acarya, and they split into two factions

over who the next acarya would be.

8]Consequently, both factions were asara, or useless,

because they had no authority, having disobeyed the

order of the spiritual master.

9]Despite the spiritual master's order to form a

governing body and execute the missionary activities

of the Gaudiya Matha, the two unauthorized factions

began litigation that is still going on after forty

years with no decision.

10]Therefore, we do not belong to any faction.

11]But because the two parties, busy dividing the

material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution,

stopped the preaching work, we took up the mission of

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Bhaktivinoda

Thakura to preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all

over the world, under the protection of all the

predecessor acaryas, and we find that our humble

attempt has been successful.

12]We followed the principles especially explained by

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary

on the Bhagavad-gita verse vyavasayatmika buddhir

ekeha kuru-nandana.

13]According to this instruction of Visvanatha

Cakravarti Thakura, it is the duty of a disciple to

follow strictly the orders of his spiritual master.

14]The secret of success in advancement in spiritual

life is the firm faith of the disciple in the orders

of his spiritual master.

15]The Vedas confirm this:

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakasante mahatmanah

"To one who has staunch faith in the words of the

spiritual master and the words of the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, the secret of success in Vedic

knowledge is revealed."

16]The Krsna consciousness movement is being

propagated according to this principle, and therefore

our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite

of the many impediments offered by antagonistic

demons, because we are getting positive help from our

previous acaryas.

17]One must judge every action by its result.

18]The members of the self-appointed acarya's party

who occupied the property of the Gaudiya Matha are

satisfied, but they could make no progress in

preaching.

19]Therefore by the result of their actions one should

know that they are asara, or useless, whereas the

success of the ISKCON party, the International Society

for Krishna Consciousness, which strictly follows guru

and Gauranga, is increasing daily all over the world.

20]Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura wanted to

print as many books as possible and distribute them

all over the world.

21]We have tried our best in this connection, and we

are getting results beyond our expectations.[CC Adi

12.8]

 

Ramakant has quoted sentences 5 & 6 as above ....

"Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his

departure, requested all his disciples to form a

governing body and conduct missionary activities

cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to

become the next acarya.")

 

Who are these "all" disciples whom Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati Thakura requested to form a GBC? Sentences 7

- 9 explains they formed "the two unauthorized

factions." However in sentence 10 Srila Prabhupada

explains that he does not belong to either faction. So

Srila Prabhupada was aloof from this example,

therefore when he says that "He did not instruct a

particular man to become the next acarya," he is

refering to amongst the members of "the two

unauthorized factions." Of which he was belonging to

neither faction. Therefore it is conceivable that

although Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya

Astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

Thakura Prabhupada NEVER gave any order to any members

of the 2 factions. He could have given such to Srila

Prabhupada who was aloof from both parties.

 

Since Srila Prabhupada never disclosed how he got the

order, we probably will never know the answer to how

he got the authorization. However as demonstrated, it

is premature to suggest on the basis of this purport

that Srila Prabhupada never received authorization by

the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's departure to be

successor acarya.

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

--- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

<Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> In the Srimad Bhagavatam 11th Canto, 11th Chapter

> Krishnan instructs

> Uddhava, " One should take initiation by the

> procedures mentioned in

> the Vedas, Pancaratra and other, similar

> literatures."

>

 

Right.

 

 

> Now our ritvik friends are telling us that we not

> are to obey Krishna's

> instruction.

>

 

Hogswash!

 

Srila Prabhupada unequivocally stated that the diksa

guru must be a maha-bhagavata (most advanced stage of

God-realisation) and be specifically authorised by his

own spiritual master. He had always strongly condemned

the assumption of guruship by those who were not

suitably qualified and authorised. We quote below from

Srila Prabhupada's books where the qualifications of

the diksa guru is stated.

 

*Maha-bhagavata*-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam

sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih

maha-kula-prasuto' pi sarva-yajnesu *diksitah*

sahasra-sakhadhya yi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah

 

 "The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of

devotional service. There are three classes of

devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the

topmost class." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

"When one has attained the topmost position of

maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and

worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of

Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the

post of a guru."

(C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

Aside from the qualification, Srila Prabhupada also

taught that specific authorisation from the

predecessor acarya was also essential before anyone

could act as a diksa guru:

 

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated

person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person

to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual

benediction from higher authorities."

(SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual

master coming in the disciplic succession, who is

authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This

is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

 

Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader

of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the

spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me.

This is the guru parampara.

Indian man: Did it...

Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very

speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by

his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become

guru.

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

 

Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only

become a diksa guru when both the qualification and

authorisation are in place. Srila Prabhupada had not

authorised any such gurus, nor had he stated that any

of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Rather,

just prior to July 9th, he agreed that they were still

'conditioned souls', and that vigilance was essential

lest persons pose themselves as guru. (please see RC

April 22nd 1977 )

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:16 -0700, Madhusudana Dasa <july9th_77 >

wrote:

>

>

> Who are these "all" disciples whom Bhaktisiddhanta

> Sarasvati Thakura requested to form a GBC? Sentences 7

> - 9 explains they formed "the two unauthorized

> factions." However in sentence 10 Srila Prabhupada

> explains that he does not belong to either faction. So

> Srila Prabhupada was aloof from this example,

> therefore when he says that "He did not instruct a

> particular man to become the next acarya," he is

> refering to amongst the members of "the two

> unauthorized factions." Of which he was belonging to

> neither faction. Therefore it is conceivable that

> although Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya

> Astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

> Thakura Prabhupada NEVER gave any order to any members

> of the 2 factions.

 

 

Actually, your reading is exactly contrary to the clear, plain meaning of

what Srila Prabhupada wrote here. In fact, the "all" disciples to whom such

an order was never given is the to the total number of his disciples. Just

look it up in the dictionary, and give up your addiction to word jugglery.

 

I almost never participate in discussion of this issue, especially in

public, but your mistake is so blatant, and apparently willfully so, that

someone other than your opponent in this conversation needs to point it out.

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Since Srila Prabhupada never disclosed how he got the

> order, we probably will never know the answer to how

> he got the authorization. However as demonstrated, it

> is premature to suggest on the basis of this purport

> that Srila Prabhupada never received authorization by

> the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's departure to be

> successor acarya.

 

You did not carefully read my question which was:

 

Do you accept Srila Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru, although UNTIL

THE TIME OF THE DEPARTURE OF HIS GURU he has not been instructed to be the

next acarya? If yes, why?

 

I never wrote that Srila Prabhupada was not authorized by his guru to be

diksa guru. Of course he was because he said so.

 

(I forgot to add the phrase "until the time of his departure" to my

statement "As you probably know Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has

not authorized any of his disciples to be the next acarya" but that should

have been clear after having read the quote and the question).

 

So your answer to my question is that you accept Srila Prabhupada as an

authorized diksa guru because 38 years after the departure of his guru he

said that his guru maharaja ordered him, although you don't know how he got

the authorization. Correct?

 

Well, Sankarsana Prabhu said that Srila Prabhupada ordered him to be diska

guru. So you must accept also him as an authorized diksa guru. Otherwise

your conclusions would be highly inconsequent and thus meaningless.

 

BTW: Did you notice following:

 

> Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit.

 

Questions about authorization of diksa gurus is beyond your limit.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

> Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only

> become a diksa guru when both the qualification and

> authorisation are in place. Srila Prabhupada had not

> authorised any such gurus, nor had he stated that any

> of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Rather,

> just prior to July 9th, he agreed that they were still

> 'conditioned souls', and that vigilance was essential

> lest persons pose themselves as guru. (please see RC

> April 22nd 1977 )

 

Your problem is that you have no idea what it means to be liberated or

conditioned. You have obviously not studied Srila Prabhupada's books under

proper guidance. Persons like you wouldn't be able to recognize a

maha-bhagavata if he fell on your head in broad day light.

 

Here is the authorization:

 

"If I want to enter into the kingdom of God, or Krsna, if we want to be

Krsna consciousness, there is no impediment. There is no impediment.

Ahaituky apratihata. In the Bhagavata says that if one wants to cultivate

the Krsna consciousness, it is without any cause and without any impediment.

Because it is transcendental subject matter, it does not depend on any

material condition, on any material condition. There is no consideration of

material impediment. So it is open for everyone. Catur-varnyam maya srstam.

That is a chance given, that you can become a brahmana, you can become a

great devotee of Lord Krsna, and you can become the spiritual master of the

world. And I think you should take seriously.

 

I am old man. If you, some of you at least understand this science and take

up this science, you become future hope of the, this country or the world.

That is my request to you, that you should take this chance and become a

spiritual master for all the people."

 

Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 4.12-13 -- New York, July 29, 1966

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

You wrote ....

 

> Questions about authorization of diksa gurus is

> beyond your limit.

 

And as you have demonstrated in this thread -

answering my questions about authorization of diksa

gurus is beyond your limit.

 

For the simple reason - Srila Prabhupada never

authorized any diksa gurus.

 

You have also demonstrate an inability to understand

what Srila Prabhupada has said in this regard.

Perhaps the following will be more coherent?

 

"Srila Prabhupada did not appoint anyone to be guru

for the future" (Jayadvaita Swami 1990)

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

Are topics about authorization of diksa gurus within your limit?

 

> And as you have demonstrated in this thread - answering my questions about

> authorization of diksa gurus is beyond your limit.

 

You were not asking questions? You were posting claims as if your are expert

in this science. But you were unable to answer the simple question what you

would accept as an authorization to initiate.

 

> For the simple reason - Srila Prabhupada never authorized any diksa gurus.

 

How do you know that? Did you speak to Srila Prabhupada and he told you?

Please enlighten us.

 

> "Srila Prabhupada did not appoint anyone to be guru for the future"

> (Jayadvaita Swami 1990)

 

(1) I though that for the ritvikvadis "guru" alone (without "diksa") means

"siksa guru", as they have several times stated.

 

(2) Yes, gurus are not appointed.

 

 

Here is again my question which you (or any other ritvikvadi) kindly answer:

 

Why do you accept Srila Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru although

until the time of the departure of his guru he has not been instructed to be

the next acarya and don't accept Sankarsana Prabhu as an authorized diksa

guru although he said that he has been ordered by Srila Prabhupada?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> TKG disagrees with SDG explanation in his Pyramid House Confession as

> follows ....

 

And who decides who is correct? You?

 

Satsvarupa das Goswami's explanation appeared in a book meant to be read and

understood by everyone. But what is this Pyramid House Confession?

 

> Srila Prabhupada only ever "selected" eleven devotees to act as ritviks,

> or representative priests, not as diksa Gurus in their own right.

 

How do you know that? Did you come to this conclusion by using your

imperfect senses? Also note that Srila Prabhupada said that he will

authorize acaryas.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

--- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > TKG disagrees with SDG explanation in his Pyramid

> House Confession as

> > follows ....

>

> And who decides who is correct? You?

 

 

Since the ultimate authority in ISKCON is Srila

Prabhupada. Then surely the answer to your question

should be obvious. Srila Prabhupada is the answer. It

is a simple matter of comparing what Srila Prabhupada

said with what Sats wrote and with what Tamal said.

Tamal got it right this time.

 

 

 

>

> Satsvarupa das Goswami's explanation appeared in a

> book meant to be read and

> understood by everyone.

 

 

David Icke also writes books giving explanations about

almost everything and he sells his books like hot

cakes to the masses. Does that fact make the contents

of his books right?

 

 

 

>But what is this Pyramid

> House Confession?

 

 

 

Just that - a confession by Tamal in a rare moment of

lucidity. Whereby he confesses that the appointment of

diksa gurus is a hoax - as Srila Prabhupada only

appointed ritviks.

 

 

 

 

> > Srila Prabhupada only ever "selected" eleven

> devotees to act as ritviks,

> > or representative priests, not as diksa Gurus in

> their own right.

>

 

> How do you know that? Did you come to this

> conclusion by using your

> imperfect senses?

 

 

 

That is what the signed documented evidence says.

And as mentioned, so did Tamal say so and he was

there!

 

 

 

>Also note that Srila Prabhupada

> said that he will

> authorize acaryas.

 

 

 

Why did he say that? If he had already given the

authorization as you claim - in the 2 quotes you gave

me. This is a point I've been trying to bring to your

attention.

"he will authorize acaryas." Can only mean that the

authorization is yet to come.

 

Let us look at his quotes which he claims is

authorization for diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue,

the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words.

Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is

permitted to make disciples all over the world."

 

This is a statement which outlines the qualifications

of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In

other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the

principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization

in the quote. Just like the government states the

principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are

permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain

authorization by passing your driving test. Thus

merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the

authorization.

 

 

2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the

mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of

the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world."

 

This quote is as before stating the principle, that if

someone can do such & such then he is qualified to

make disciples. Again there is no mention here of

authorization to do so. This quote again states the

qualification NOT authorization.

 

Therefore the 2 quotes you posted previously are NOT

authorization from Srila Prabhupada for his disciples

to be diksa gurus.

 

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> >But what is this Pyramid

> > House Confession?

>

>

>

> Just that - a confession by Tamal in a rare moment of

> lucidity. Whereby he confesses that the appointment of

> diksa gurus is a hoax - as Srila Prabhupada only

> appointed ritviks.

>

You are a lying scumbag. He doesn't say that at all in the Pyramid House

talks. You better pray to the IRM or whoever you are praying to that you

never meet me face to face.

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Since the ultimate authority in ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada. Then surely

> the answer to your question should be obvious. Srila Prabhupada is the

> answer. It is a simple matter of comparing what Srila Prabhupada said with

> what Sats wrote and with what Tamal said. Tamal got it right this time.

 

As I already wrote:

This was a conversion about elevated spiritual topics amongst spiritually

very advanced persons. I am not so puffed up to think I can understand this

conversion by looking at the meaning of the words they exchanged.

 

Do you think you can understand it directly?

 

> David Icke also writes books giving explanations about almost everything

> and he sells his books like hot cakes to the masses. Does that fact make

> the contents of his books right?

 

But his books are meant to be understood by everyone. Isn't it? That was my

point. Whether or not Satsvarupa das Goswami's explanation is correct is

another question.

 

> > But what is this Pyramid House Confession?

>

> Just that - a confession by Tamal

 

Sorry that my question was not clear enough to you. I wanted to know if this

Pyramid House Confession was a public lecture, or a private conversion not

to be published, or what? Where can I read it?

 

BTW. You cannot prove that your understanding is correct by offending

devotees.

 

> > > Srila Prabhupada only ever "selected" eleven devotees to act as

> > > ritviks, or representative priests, not as diksa Gurus in their own

> > > right.

>

> > How do you know that? Did you come to this conclusion by using your

> > imperfect senses?

>

> That is what the signed documented evidence says.

 

Where can I read that signed document saying that Srila Prabhupada only ever

selected eleven devotees to act as ritviks. This cannot be the July 9th

letter because in that letter it does not say that Srila Prabhupada has

never and will never authorize any diksa guru.

 

> > Also note that Srila Prabhupada said that he will authorize acaryas.

>

> Why did he say that? If he had already given the authorization as you

> claim - in the 2 quotes you gave me.

 

Okay, let me explain it by a material example: The law given by the

government says that if you are at least 18 years old and you passed the

driving test, then you are authorized to drive a car. THAT is the

authorization. The authorization is not from the examiner at the driving

test or from the officer that puts the stamp in the driving license. They

are just employees of the government. The authorization is given by the law.

But still the examiner and the officer are required.

 

> "he will authorize acaryas." can only mean that the authorization is yet

> to come.

 

Yes, "he will authorize acaryas" means that he will authorize acaryas.

Why do you say that this is incorrect and claim that he did not (in the past

28 years) and will not authorize any acarya?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

You wrote ....

 

> > > Also note that Srila Prabhupada said that he

> will authorize acaryas.

> >

> > Why did he say that? If he had already given the

> authorization as you

> > claim - in the 2 quotes you gave me.

>

> Okay, let me explain it by a material example: The

> law given by the

> government says that if you are at least 18 years

> old and you passed the

> driving test, then you are authorized to drive a

> car. THAT is the

> authorization. The authorization is not from the

> examiner at the driving

> test or from the officer that puts the stamp in the

> driving license. They

> are just employees of the government. The

> authorization is given by the law.

> But still the examiner and the officer are required.

 

What are you trying to say by this analogy?

 

 

My question is NOT answered.

I repeat - Why did he say that? If he had already

given the authorization as you claim - in the 2 quotes

you gave me.

 

(remember - Srila Prabhupada says that the

authorisation must come from the previous acarya -

diksa vidhana)

 

 

> > "he will authorize acaryas." can only mean that

> the authorization is yet

> > to come.

 

 

Therefore the quotes you gave cannot be the

authorisation. Otherwise you are foisting a

contradiction on Srila Prabhupada. By claiming that he

authorised diksa gurus in the NOD & NOI. Then you

claim that he says that he is yet to give the

authorization.

 

You say that Srila Prabhupada authorised diksa gurus

in the 2 quotes you gave.

 

Let us look at his quotes which you claim is

authorization for diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue,

the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words.

Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is

permitted to make disciples all over the world."

 

This is a statement which outlines the qualifications

of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In

other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the

principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization

in the quote. Just like the government states the

principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are

permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain

authorization by passing your driving test. Thus

merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the

authorization.

 

 

2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the

mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of

the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world."

 

This quote is as before stating the principle, that if

someone can do such & such then he is qualified to

make disciples. Again there is no mention here of

authorization to do so. This quote again states the

qualification NOT authorization.

 

Then you say "Also note that Srila Prabhupada said

that he will authorize acaryas." The word "will" is

future tense ie: it is something yet to come.

 

So this proves that your evidence for authorisation is

now down to Sankarshan prabhus word. But why do you

accept his word but not Narayan Maharaja's word?

Narayan Maharaja claims that Srila Prabhupada ordered

him to be the successor acarya.

 

 

 

> Yes, "he will authorize acaryas" means that he will

> authorize acaryas.

 

 

obviously, (providing your quote is correct of course)

 

 

> Why do you say that this is incorrect and claim that

> he did not (in the past

> 28 years)

 

 

The facts are that he did not give any authorisation.

This is what this discussion is about, EVIDENCE for

this authorisation - where is it?

 

Blind following is NOT recommended by Srila

Prabhupada..

 

"Blind following and absurd inquiries. These things

are condemned in this verse. Blind following means:

“Oh, there is a swami. So many thousands of people are

following. Let me become his disciple.” This is called

blind following. You do not know what is that swami,

whether he is a swami or a rascal. You do not know.

But because everyone is going, “Oh, let me become his

disciple.” This is blind following, without any

knowledge, blind following."

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> > Okay, let me explain it by a material example: The law given by the

> > government says that if you are at least 18 years old and you passed the

> > driving test, then you are authorized to drive a car. THAT is the

> > authorization. The authorization is not from the examiner at the driving

> > test or from the officer that puts the stamp in the driving license.

> > They are just employees of the government. The authorization is given by

> > the law. But still the examiner and the officer are required.

>

> What are you trying to say by this analogy?

 

Sorry, I thought I don't have to explain it to you. Well, replace

"government" with "Krishna and parampara", "law" with "Upadesamrita", "18

years old and passed the driving test" with "has controlled the six urges",

"drive a car" with "initiate disciples", "employee" with "servant",

"examiner and officer" with "spiritual master".

If you do that, you will get following:

 

In the Upadesamrita it says that if you have controlled the six urges, then

you are authorized to initiate disciples. THAT is the authorization. The

authorization is not from the spiritual master. He is just servant of

Krishna and the parampara. The authorization is given in the Upadesamrita.

But still the spiritual master is required.

 

> My question is NOT answered.

> I repeat - Why did he say that? If he had already given the authorization

> as you claim - in the 2 quotes you gave me.

 

I already anwered this question: Although the authorization has been given

in the Upadesamrita, Srila Prabhupada (or his representative) still has to

determine who has controlled the six urges. After he has determined that, he

will say "you are authorized".

 

If it is not clear yet or if you don't agree with my answer, then please ask

your spiritual master. He can explain it better than I.

 

> Then you say "Also note that Srila Prabhupada said that he will authorize

> acaryas." The word "will" is future tense ie: it is something yet to come.

 

So you agree that it is something yet to come. That is what I wanted to hear

from you: Srila Prabhupada did not intend to be the only diksa guru in

ISKCON.

 

Otherwise, if Srila Prabhupada intended to be the only diksa guru in ISKCON

and therefore did not intend to authorize any acarya, then on April 22, 1977

he would have made an incorrect statement. If that is true, are there other

incorrect statements, for example in the July 9th letter or in the

testament?

 

> The facts are that he did not give any authorisation.

 

Now 28 years have passed since Srila Prabhupada said that he will authorize

acaryas. What lets you come to the conclusion that it has not happened yet?

 

> This is what this discussion is about, EVIDENCE for this authorisation -

> where is it?

 

The evidence is there, but you don't acept it.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

--- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > > Okay, let me explain it by a material example:

> The law given by the

> > > government says that if you are at least 18

> years old and you passed the

> > > driving test, then you are authorized to drive a

> car. THAT is the

> > > authorization. The authorization is not from the

> examiner at the driving

> > > test or from the officer that puts the stamp in

> the driving license.

> > > They are just employees of the government. The

> authorization is given by

> > > the law. But still the examiner and the officer

> are required.

> >

> > What are you trying to say by this analogy?

>

> Sorry, I thought I don't have to explain it to you.

> Well, replace

> "government" with "Krishna and parampara", "law"

> with "Upadesamrita", "18

> years old and passed the driving test" with "has

> controlled the six urges",

> "drive a car" with "initiate disciples", "employee"

> with "servant",

> "examiner and officer" with "spiritual master".

> If you do that, you will get following:

>

> In the Upadesamrita it says that if you have

> controlled the six urges, then

> you are authorized to initiate disciples. THAT is

> the authorization. The

> authorization is not from the spiritual master.

 

 

 

Non-sense once again. Srila Prabhupada says the

opposite from what YOU write.

 

Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific

authorisation from the PREDECESSOR acarya was also

essential before anyone could act as a diksa guru:

 

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated

person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person

to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual

benediction from HIGHER authorities."

(SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual

master coming in the disciplic succession, who is

authorised by his PREDECESSOR spiritual master. This

is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

 

Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader

of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the

spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ORDERED me.

This is the guru parampara.

Indian man: Did it...

Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very

speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ORDERED by

his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become

guru.

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

 

Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only

become a diksa guru when both the qualification and

authorisation are in place. Srila Prabhupada had not

authorised any such gurus, nor had he stated that any

of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Rather,

just prior to July 9th, he agreed that they were still

'conditioned souls', and that vigilance was essential

lest persons pose themselves as guru. (please see R.C.

April 22nd 1977 )

 

 

 

>

> > Then you say "Also note that Srila Prabhupada said

> that he will authorize

> > acaryas." The word "will" is future tense ie: it

> is something yet to come.

>

> So you agree that it is something yet to come. That

> is what I wanted to hear

> from you:

 

 

 

Yes, but what kind of acaryas, this is the question?

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada did not intend to be the

> only diksa guru in

> ISKCON.

>

 

 

 

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

 

 

> Otherwise, if Srila Prabhupada intended to be the

> only diksa guru in ISKCON

> and therefore did not intend to authorize any

> acarya, then on April 22, 1977

> he would have made an incorrect statement.

 

 

 

Not neccessarily so. In the section of the

conversation you are quoting from

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I

shall say who is guru, 'Now you become acarya. You

become authorised.' I am waiting for that. You become,

all, acarya. I retire completely. But the training

must be complete."

 

TKG:"The process of purification must be there."

 

Srila Prabhupada:"Oh yes, must be there. Caitanya

Mahaprabhu wants. amara ajnaya guru hana. You become

guru. But be qualified. (Laughs) Little thing,

strictly follower."

 

Please note that Srila Prabhupada says "You become,

*ALL*, acarya.....But be qualified. (Laughs) Little

thing, strictly follower."

This refers to the qualifications of a siksa guru NOT

diksa! So he is discussing the authorizing of siksa

gurus in this part of the conversation. Remember he

has told us in his books that the diksa guru must be

maha-bhagavat, which is not a little thing and is

extremly rare. Thus the 'ALL' is also evidence of the

fact that he is envisaging an ISKCON comprised of

qualified siksa gurus, strictly following. This is

what the future of ISKCON 'shall' be. A society of

qualified preachers (teachers, acaryas). Contrast this

scenario with the present pack of jokers who are

simply pretending and like BABIES are always falling

down.

 

 

 

 

> If that

> is true, are there other

> incorrect statements, for example in the July 9th

> letter or in the

> testament?

>

 

 

 

Only a fool would suggest such a thing.

btw. by testament do you mean the old testament or the

new testament - or what?

 

 

 

 

> > The facts are that he did not give any

> authorisation.

>

> Now 28 years have passed since Srila Prabhupada said

> that he will authorize

> acaryas. What lets you come to the conclusion that

> it has not happened yet?

>

 

 

 

 

So tell us all - we are waiting for this with baited

breath. When did this secret authorization occur? Who

got this secret authorization? Have you announced this

to the GBC yet?

 

 

 

 

> > This is what this discussion is about, EVIDENCE

> for this authorisation -

> > where is it?

>

> The evidence is there, but you don't acept it.

>

 

 

 

Where? Don't tell me I've missed it again.

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Srila Prabhupada says the opposite from what YOU write.

 

It seems you did not understand me. Therefore I will explain it a last time:

 

In the Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7, Srila Prabhupada said:

 

"The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the

belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these

six is permitted to make disciples all over the world."

 

I assume you agree that "is permitted" also means "is authorized". So in

this statement Srila Prabhupada says that one who has controlled the six

urges is authorized to make disciples. As you know Srila Prabhupada is the

predecessor spiritual master of his disciples. Therefore the requirement

that the authorization must come from predecessor spiritual master is

fulfilled.

 

As you can see, in this statement Srila Prabhupada did not give any names.

So in this statement he did not say who has controlled the six urges and is

therefore authorized to initiate. Therefore Srila Prabhupada or his

representative still has to determine who has controlled the six urges.

After he or his representative has done that, he or his representative will

somehow inform the disciple, for example by telling him, "you are authorized

to initiate".

 

If it is still not clear, then please ask your spiritual master. He can

explain it better than I.

 

> Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only become a diksa guru when

> both the qualification and authorisation are in place.

> Srila Prabhupada had not authorised any such gurus, nor had he stated that

> any of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Rather, just prior to

> July 9th, he agreed that they were still 'conditioned souls', and that

> vigilance was essential lest persons pose themselves as guru.

> (please see R.C. April 22nd 1977 )

 

On April 22, 1977 did Srila Prabhupada mean "diksa guru" or "siksa guru"?

Above you indicate that he meant "diksa guru". But below you write that he

meant "siksa guru". What is correct?

 

> > Srila Prabhupada did not intend to be the only diksa guru in ISKCON.

>

> How do you come to that conclusion?

 

Because then he would not have said that he will authorize acaryas.

See also the quote at the end of this text.

 

> Please note that Srila Prabhupada says "You become, *ALL*, acarya.....But

> be qualified. (Laughs) Little thing, strictly follower."

> This refers to the qualifications of a siksa guru NOT diksa! So he is

> discussing the authorizing of siksa gurus in this part of the

> conversation.

 

You say that he meant "siksa guru". Krishna Priya Mataji wrote me that he

meant "officiating acarya". So who is correct?

 

The quote below confirms that by "You become, all, acarya" Srila Prabhupada

meant diksa gurus, not siksa gurus.

 

BTW. In my Vedabase version 3 it says “You become guru”, not "You become,

all, acarya".

 

> > The evidence is there, but you don't acept it.

>

> Where? Don't tell me I've missed it again.

 

Yes, you missed it.

 

In 1968 in a letter to Hamsaduta Srila Prabhupada wrote:

 

"Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate

disciples."

 

Isn't that clear? You just have to ask the disciple of Srila Prabhupada if

he has the title of Bhaktivedanta. If he has, then he is allowed to initiate

disciples.

 

In that letter he also wrote:

 

"Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase

the numbers of the generations. That is my program."

 

So it was Srila Prabhupada's program that his disciples will initiate

disciples. He did not intend to remain the only diksa guru in ISKCON.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa