Continuing the disciplic succession

[Guest guest]

I'd like to second that. That rivikism has even been discussed in ISKCON as

if it had some merit is astounding in and of itself. As far as I am

concerned the concept is nothing but disguised atheism and it should be

treated as such.

 

ys, jdd

 

> All glories to SRILA PRABHUPADA!

> Disciple means discipline. How can the neophyte disciple have such a

> connection in the heart to perceive the important instructions that are

> necessary for actual spiritual advancement? Actually, this ritvik thing is

> nothing more than spiritual anarchy, a scapegoat for those that cannot

> take discipline, for those that desire recognition and for those that

> (unfortunately) are foolish and insincere. A guru has to chastise (and

> praise) the disciple (sometimes) for his/her own good otherwise mental

> speculation is the order of the day. The ritvik idea put forward by the

> mental speculators is flawed since it does not afford total surrender to

> ones diksha guru. There is the opt out clause whereby one can whimsically

> run to Prabhupada on the pretext of taking shelter, but in reality one is

> avoiding the very shelter that Prabhupada's has given by ignoring his

> instructions on this matter.

> We should ignore these fools, we should not waste our time. Instead we

> should concentrate our efforts on becoming more Krishna conscious and to

> become pure devotees.

> Anyway, when the desert caravan passes a village and the dogs bark, who

> takes notice? The dogs very boldly bark, but after all, they are just

> dogs, it is their nature to be like that. We can have sympathy with their

> covered dog like situation but the truth is 'you get what you desire and

> what you deserve'. We chant Hare Krishna for their benefit, and then we

> move on. I felt inspired to say something.

> Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada

regarding initiations after his departure?

 

Thank you

 

Chaytanya

 

 

> I'd like to second that. That rivikism has even been discussed in ISKCON

> as

> if it had some merit is astounding in and of itself. As far as I am

> concerned the concept is nothing but disguised atheism and it should be

> treated as such.

>

> ys, jdd

>

>> All glories to SRILA PRABHUPADA!

>> Disciple means discipline. How can the neophyte disciple have such a

>> connection in the heart to perceive the important instructions that are

>> necessary for actual spiritual advancement? Actually, this ritvik thing

>> is

>> nothing more than spiritual anarchy, a scapegoat for those that cannot

>> take discipline, for those that desire recognition and for those that

>> (unfortunately) are foolish and insincere. A guru has to chastise (and

>> praise) the disciple (sometimes) for his/her own good otherwise mental

>> speculation is the order of the day. The ritvik idea put forward by the

>> mental speculators is flawed since it does not afford total surrender to

>> ones diksha guru. There is the opt out clause whereby one can

>> whimsically

>> run to Prabhupada on the pretext of taking shelter, but in reality one

>> is

>> avoiding the very shelter that Prabhupada's has given by ignoring his

>> instructions on this matter.

>> We should ignore these fools, we should not waste our time. Instead we

>> should concentrate our efforts on becoming more Krishna conscious and to

>> become pure devotees.

>> Anyway, when the desert caravan passes a village and the dogs bark, who

>> takes notice? The dogs very boldly bark, but after all, they are just

>> dogs, it is their nature to be like that. We can have sympathy with

>> their

>> covered dog like situation but the truth is 'you get what you desire and

>> what you deserve'. We chant Hare Krishna for their benefit, and then we

>> move on. I felt inspired to say something.

>> Hare Krishna!

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada

> regarding initiations after his departure?

>

> Thank you

 

Study Srila Prabhupada's teachings and ISKCON's history and it will become

very clear and self-evident what Srila Prabhupada authorized.

 

Thank you

 

ys, jdd

[Guest guest]

>Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada

>regarding initiations after his departure?

 

For a generic answer, you might like to read my short essay "Plain Vanilla Made

Plainer," at <www.krishna.com/jas>.

 

Here is a brief answer given by the GBC:

 

> Srila Prabhupada consistently said that his disciples would

> themselves become spiritual masters. Guru, sadhu, and sastra

> all support this standard way of continuing the disciplic

> succession.

>

> Srila Prabhupada said that his disciples would become

> "regular gurus" and that each of their disciples would thus

> be a "disciple of my disciple."

>

> On the strength of our Vaisnava tradition and the statements

> of Srila Prabhupada, the GBC concludes that Srila Prabhupada

> intended his disciples to be "regular gurus" after he

> physically left us.

 

I hope this helps answer your question.

 

Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Dear Chaitanya,

pamho, agtSP

 

For your information Srila prabhupada ONLY authorised

REPRESENTATIVES (RITVIKS)TO INITIATE ON HIS BEHALF for

after his departure. Intrested to know more.....hmmm

 

Srila Prabhupada has NOT, I repeat Not AUTHORISED any

of his disciples to act as Diksha gurus. Evidence for

this has NEVER been produced by the GBC to date. If

you ask them this question all you will get is a

waffled answer.

 

PRACTICALLY ALL THE PRESENT GURUS IN ISKCON ARE EITHER

SELF APPOINTED OR VOTED IN BY OTHER SELF APPOINTED

GURUS. (A process that was neither approved nor

practiced by Srila Prabhupada, especially since one

devotee has responded to U and asked you to look at

ISKCON's history) How foolish can he get.

 

Don't expect to here the TRUTH from the ISKCON's GBC

or their followers or from me. The Truth lies in Srila

Prabhupada's own words..... intrested to know more,

then please do read on.

 

Good luck on you journey of understanding the truth on

the REAL DIKSHA guru OF ISKCON namly HDG ACBSP.

 

Remember not everyone is going to tell you the Truth

since their name, fame and adoration are at stake

here!

 

At the present time a controversy is raging within the

International Society for Krishna Consciousness

(ISKCON) over who should be allowed to initiate new

disciples. There are now some 70 ISKCON ‘gurus’ who

are currently initiating, all of whom are

co-defendants in a High Court action taken against

them for usurping Srila Prabhupada from his requested

position as ISKCON’s sole initiating Guru. The purpose

of this message is to set out briefly the issues

surrounding the explicit instructions Srila Prabhupada

left on who the society’s initiating Guru should

really be.

 

The Final Order

 

On July 9th 1977, four months before his physical

departure, Srila Prabhupada issued a typed, signed

directive via his secretary to all the leaders of

ISKCON. This official policy directive set in place a

system of initiations employing the use of ‘ritviks’,

or ‘representatives of the acarya (guru)’. Srila

Prabhupada instructed that this 'officiating acarya'

system was to be instituted immediately, and run from

that time onwards, or 'henceforward' - (this letter is

reproduced at the end). This was his final order on

how initiations should be conducted within ISKCON. As

can be seen from reading the directive, the ritviks

were to act only on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, new

initiates all becoming his disciples. In his Last Will

and Testament Srila Prabhupada also decreed that the

system of management within ISKCON should not be

changed. However:

Immediately after Srila Prabhupada's physical

departure, on November 14th 1977, the Governing Body

Commission (GBC) for ISKCON disbanded the ritvik

system.

In it’s place the GBC set up a system in which they

and their supporters could accept worship as though

they themselves were as pure as God. Thus the perfect

and exemplary Acarya, Srila Prabhupada, was replaced

by 11 competing ‘gurus’ - (increased over the years to

the current 80) - all vying for disciples, power and

influence. Unsurprisingly this unauthorized guru

system has been an embarrassing disaster practically

from day one. Even now the entire GBC (which is

comprised almost entirely of ‘gurus’) faces serious

charges of neglect and abuse of devotee children in a

massive law suit being brought against them in America

by the same law firm that sued the Catholic church for

over $100,000,000 on similar grounds.

 

The longest serving former editor of ISKCON’s very own

magazine Back To Godhead, His Holiness Jayadvaita

Swami, summed up the behaviour of some ISKCON ‘gurus’

thus:

(PLEASE NOTE:So far Jayadvaita's response to you has

only repeated more waffle from the GBC without any

CONCRETE EVEDENCE from Srila Prabhupada CONTRARY TO

THAT given here)

FACT:

ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out

many sincere Godbrothers and Godsisters.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and

diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal

prestige and sense gratification.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse

with both women and men, and possibly children as

well..’ etc, etc ('Where the Ritvik People are Right,

Jayadvaita Swami, 1996)

 

Now the TRUTH!

 

We demonstrate below how the GBC attempts to justify

their insubordination through a mixture of

misrepresentation and lies.

 

Lie number 1

 

In order to explain away such diabolical behavior by

their ‘gurus’, the GBC have for many years taught that

members of the sacred disciplic succession, descending

from Lord Sri Krishna Himself, can sometimes fall down

from their elevated position. This is a serious

philosophical heresy. Srila Prabhupada states the

precise opposite:

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic

succession from time eternal and he does not deviate

at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord."(Bg.

4.42, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada taught that a guru would only fall

down if he were not properly authorised to initiate:

"...sometimes a spiritual master is not properly

authorised to initiate and only on his own initiative

becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by

an accumulation of wealth and a large number of

disciples." (NOD p116)

 

Thus the very fact that many ISKCON ‘gurus’ have

deviated proves they were never authorised to initiate

in the first place. They were only ever authorised to

act as ritviks, or officiating priests.

 

Lie number 2

 

The Governing Body Commission (GBC) of ISKCON

maintains that the July 9th order, which originally

set in place the ritvik system, was only temporary,

specifically meant to stop on Srila Prabhupada’s

departure:

‘This temporary measure, put in place because of Srila

Prabhupada's ill health, was designed to take care of

a specific situation during his presence.’

(GBC approved author Drutakarma das ‘The Ritvik

Heresy’)

 

Merely reading the order itself easily disproves this

assertion. As the reader will note, nowhere in the

July 9th letter does it state that the ritvik system

was ‘temporary’, or that it was only set up because of

Srila Prabhupada’s ‘ill health’. Neither does the

order say it is to terminate on his departure, as is

admitted by the GBC and their supporters:

‘The July 9 letter does not directly mention

Prabhupada's departure.’

(‘The Ritvik Heresy’)

 

The obvious question then is - why does the GBC think

the system was meant to stop on Srila Prabhupada’s

departure when the letter does not even mention

departure? Indeed, nowhere did Srila Prabhupada ever

say or write that the ‘ritvik’ system was only

make-shift, stop-gap, temporary or subject to

termination by the GBC. It is an axiom of spiritual

life that the order of the guru cannot be whimsically

ignored or stopped. So why was this done with the July

9th directive?

 

Lie number 3

 

The GBC teaches that the spiritual master must be

physically present on the same planet as the disciple

in order for initiation to take place. Yet nowhere is

this principle stated in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.

On the contrary there is one famous example in the

Bhagavad Gita, verse 4.1, where a guru in our

disciplic succession passed on spiritual knowledge to

a disciple* who was on an entirely different planet.

Srila Prabhupada comments:

"So there was no difficulty in communicating with Manu

or Manu's son, Iksvaku. The communication was there,

or the radio system was so nice that communication

could be transferred from one planet to another." (SP

Bg. Lecture, 24/8/68)

Over and over again the GBC teaches that the physical

presence of the spiritual master is vital to the

guru-disciple relationship:

‘. a student approaches for initiation a spiritual

master who is physically present.’ ’ (Drutakarma das

‘The Ritvik Heresy’)

 

And yet Srila Prabhupada taught the exact opposite

over and over again:

‘So we should associate by vibration, and not by the

physical presence. That is real association’.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

'Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master

should be association by vibration not physical

presence. That is real association’. (Elevation to

Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57)

 

‘.one has to associate with liberated persons not

directly, physically, but by understanding, through

philosophy and logic, the problems of life. (SB

3:31:48)

 

Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada practically demonstrated

this principle by not personally attending or

conducting the initiation ceremony for many hundreds

of his disciples, nor even meeting them physically

either before or after the initiation ceremony. Thus

physical association with the Guru cannot be an

essential principle of spiritual life since Srila

Prabhupada did not practice it with many of his own

disciples.

*(Initiation or diksa (Sanskrit) is defined primarily

as the transmission of transcendental knowledge from

guru to disciple).

 

Lie number 4

 

The GBC claims that Srila Prabhupada gave many

generally applicable instructions for his disciples to

all become diksa (initiating) gurus on his departure.

In reality there are no general instructions to be

initiating gurus, only instructing (siksa) gurus:

"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the

initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru

by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am

doing."

(SP Letter to GBC member Madhudvisa, 4/8/75)

 

It is true that Srila Prabhupada did many times ask

his disciples to all become guru, but in the purports

following the relevant scriptural basis for this

request, he wrote:

“It is best not to accept any disciples”

(Chaitanya Charitamrta Madhya Lila 7.130, purport)

 

There were a handful of times where Srila Prabhupada

was dealing with ambitious deviant disciples in

private letters (Tusta Krishna etc), asking them to at

least wait until he left before grabbing their own

disciples. Yet these letters were not made generally

available till years after Srila Prabhupada’s

departure (1986) and can thus not be used to

countermand a general instruction issued to the entire

movement in 1977. The fact that the GBC tries to use

such personal letters to change institutional policy,

and convince everyone that Srila Prabhupada was to be

replaced, is a sign of their utter desperation.

 

Below we see Srila Prabhupada gave a very different

impression when he was directly asked about who would

succeed him:

Reporter:

Who will succeed you when you die?

Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever from my books

and you will utilise. (Interview, Berkley, 17/7/75)

 

Lie number 5

 

The GBC insists that Srila Prabhupada could not have

wanted to continue initiating since this would mean

‘stopping the disciplic succession’. This is a false

argument since Srila Prabhupada can only remain the

current link in the disciplic succession for as long

as the institution in which his order was given

continues to exist. Previous current links have

remained current for thousands, or even millions of

years, whereas Srila Prabhupada shall only remain the

current guru for as long as ISKCON exists.

 

Thus it is clear the GBC thinks it perfectly

acceptable to terminate important instructions and

just invent its own philosophy along the way as the

need arises. This is not the behaviour of a disciple,

what to speak of a guru.

 

I HOPE THIS HELPS. AGTSP!

 

ys

Revatinandan das

ps: IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE PLEASE READ "THE FINAL

ORDER" by Krisnakant Desai available freely from the

iskconirm.com web site

 

--- cthankey (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk wrote:

 

> Can somepne please explain what was authorised by

> Srila Prabhupada

> regarding initiations after his departure?

>

> Thank you

>

> Chaytanya

>

>

> > I'd like to second that. That rivikism has even

> been discussed in ISKCON

> > as

> > if it had some merit is astounding in and of

> itself. As far as I am

> > concerned the concept is nothing but disguised

> atheism and it should be

> > treated as such.

> >

> > ys, jdd

> >

> >> All glories to SRILA PRABHUPADA!

> >> Disciple means discipline. How can the neophyte

> disciple have such a

> >> connection in the heart to perceive the important

> instructions that are

> >> necessary for actual spiritual advancement?

> Actually, this ritvik thing

> >> is

> >> nothing more than spiritual anarchy, a scapegoat

> for those that cannot

> >> take discipline, for those that desire

> recognition and for those that

> >> (unfortunately) are foolish and insincere. A guru

> has to chastise (and

> >> praise) the disciple (sometimes) for his/her own

> good otherwise mental

> >> speculation is the order of the day. The ritvik

> idea put forward by the

> >> mental speculators is flawed since it does not

> afford total surrender to

> >> ones diksha guru. There is the opt out clause

> whereby one can

> >> whimsically

> >> run to Prabhupada on the pretext of taking

> shelter, but in reality one

> >> is

> >> avoiding the very shelter that Prabhupada's has

> given by ignoring his

> >> instructions on this matter.

> >> We should ignore these fools, we should not waste

> our time. Instead we

> >> should concentrate our efforts on becoming more

> Krishna conscious and to

> >> become pure devotees.

> >> Anyway, when the desert caravan passes a village

> and the dogs bark, who

> >> takes notice? The dogs very boldly bark, but

> after all, they are just

> >> dogs, it is their nature to be like that. We can

> have sympathy with

> >> their

> >> covered dog like situation but the truth is 'you

> get what you desire and

> >> what you deserve'. We chant Hare Krishna for

> their benefit, and then we

> >> move on. I felt inspired to say something.

> >> Hare Krishna!

> >

> >

>

-----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an

> email to:

> > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

-----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email

> to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

 

 

 

 

_________

To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new

Security Centre. http://uk.security.

[Guest guest]

>Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada

>regarding initiations after his departure?

 

 

Dear everyone,

 

Pamho. Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

With due respect: It is a mistake that Srila Prabhupada authorised his

disciples to become 'regular diksa gurus".

A general principle that is mentioned by Srila Prabhupada, is used here to

proof that he did follow that same general principle.

But Srila Prabhupada did not do so.... The reasons, I think, have become

very obvious in the following years: his disciples were not qualified to

take up that position...

 

It would be nice if these general statements could be mentioned here and

studied in context...

 

When I read the final conversations of Srila Prabhupada, specifically

dealing with how Initiations were to be continued in his absence: the clear

answer is through the ritvik system...

 

But it is very unfortunate that those who are supposed to be the intelligent

leaders of the Hare Krishna Movement, fail to understand this simple

instruction, and instead reason in such a way, as to mislead everyon into

thinking that Srila Prabhupada threw his movement to the dogs, to be torn

apart in pieces and trampled over............

 

No matter how much reason is coming their way. No matter how obvious is the

deviation, they will not admit their wrong. Their intelligence being covered

by illusion, in the garb of 'genuine concern with Sril Prabhupada's desire'

is helping them to continue with firm determination on the road that will

destroy ISKCON............if the Lord doesn not Himself interfere........

 

Those who are promoting Srila Prabhupada's final and binding instructions on

diksa in iskcon, are being ridiculed, attacked and considered nuisance.

 

Anyway, I am not going to waste my breath on this one-sided

self-gratificatory postings! What is the use?

 

your servant,

Krishnapriya dd

 

 

*************************************************************************

 

<For a generic answer, you might like to read my short essay "Plain Vanilla

Made

Plainer," at <www.krishna.com/jas>.

 

 

 

Here is a brief answer given by the GBC:

 

> Srila Prabhupada consistently said that his disciples would

> themselves become spiritual masters. Guru, sadhu, and sastra

> all support this standard way of continuing the disciplic

> succession.

>

> Srila Prabhupada said that his disciples would become

> "regular gurus" and that each of their disciples would thus

> be a "disciple of my disciple."

>

> On the strength of our Vaisnava tradition and the statements

> of Srila Prabhupada, the GBC concludes that Srila Prabhupada

> intended his disciples to be "regular gurus" after he

> physically left us.

 

I hope this helps answer your question.

 

Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Dear Revatinandana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Srila Prabhupada has NOT, I repeat Not AUTHORISED any of his disciples to

> act as Diksha gurus.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has not authorized any of his

disciples to be the next acarya.

 

(In the purport to CC Adi 12.8 Srila Prabhupada said: "Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples

to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He

did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya.")

 

But still you accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya (= diksa guru). So your

argument is void.

 

Your statement is also incorrect because in this conference Sankarsana

Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila Prabhupada

to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the authorization?

 

Before you talk about authorization, please answer following questions:

 

What would you accept as an authorization?

Does it have to come in writing?

Must the authorization be in some way recorded?

Must the authorization be given in public?

etc.

 

Please explain to us what you would accept as an authorization, and then

show us that this authorization is there for Srila Prabhupada but for none

of his disciples.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishna Priya Mataji, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> With due respect: It is a mistake that Srila Prabhupada authorised his

> disciples to become 'regular diksa gurus".

 

Probably you wanted to write "It is a mistake TO ASSUME that ...", or

similar, not that Srila Prabhupada made a mistake.

 

To you I have the same questions that I just asks Revatinandana Prabhu.

 

> But it is very unfortunate that those who are supposed to be the

> intelligent leaders of the Hare Krishna Movement, fail to understand this

> simple instruction, and instead reason in such a way, as to mislead

> everyon into thinking that Srila Prabhupada threw his movement to the

> dogs, to be torn apart in pieces and trampled over............

 

Oh, you are more intelligent than the leaders of the Hare Krishna Movement?!

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakanta et all;

 

"What would you accept as an authorization?" Ramakant asks.

 

Just like a policeman catches a thief in a building and asks him "Excuse me

sir, but do you have authorization to be here?" and when the thief replies,

"Well officer, what kind of authorization would you like?" The policeman knows

right away that he doesn't have the requirements and can make an arrest. An

honest man would immeadiately show the policeman the authorization on request.

 

Ramakants post just proves our point that there is no authorization from Srila

Prabhupada for successor diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

 

 

 

"Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

wrote:

Dear Revatinandana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Srila Prabhupada has NOT, I repeat Not AUTHORISED any of his disciples to

> act as Diksha gurus.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has not authorized any of his

disciples to be the next acarya.

 

(In the purport to CC Adi 12.8 Srila Prabhupada said: "Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples

to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He

did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya.")

 

But still you accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya (= diksa guru). So your

argument is void.

 

Your statement is also incorrect because in this conference Sankarsana

Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila Prabhupada

to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the authorization?

 

Before you talk about authorization, please answer following questions:

 

What would you accept as an authorization?

Does it have to come in writing?

Must the authorization be in some way recorded?

Must the authorization be given in public?

etc.

 

Please explain to us what you would accept as an authorization, and then

show us that this authorization is there for Srila Prabhupada but for none

of his disciples.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

Start your day with - make it your home page

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Just like a policeman catches a thief in a building and asks him "Excuse

> me sir, but do you have authorization to be here?" and when the thief

> replies, "Well officer, what kind of authorization would you like?" The

> policeman knows right away that he doesn't have the requirements and can

> make an arrest. An honest man would immeadiately show the policeman the

> authorization on request.

 

That is a good example. Only a policeman is qualified and authorized to

control and arrest people. If you were the policeman, you would arrest the

wrong persons because you don't know what the authorization is.

 

So please show us that you are qualified to judge the ISKCON gurus by

telling us how the authorization to initiate looks like.

 

> Ramakants post just proves our point that there is no authorization from

> Srila Prabhupada for successor diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

I have already posted the authorization several times in this conference.

Here it is again:

 

Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the

belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these

six is permitted to make disciples all over the world.

 

Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the

actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

"That is a good example." Says Ramakant prabhu, so let

us continue with this example.....

 

The thief has been caught, he is desperate now, so he

tries some bluff, maybe the policeman is stupid. Since

not all policemen become policemen through

qualification, some get the job through nepotism or

such like. So he pulls out his driving license and

points to a statement which says, "Joe Smith is hereby

authorised by the government..." However the policeman

is no fool, he points out to the thief that the

government has authorised Mr. Smith to drive a car NOT

to be in the building. So the bluff fails.

 

Ramakant when pressed for authorization for the

present diksa gurus in ISKCON has in reply tried the

bluff tactic out of desperation.

 

Let us look at his quotes which he claims is

authorization for diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue,

the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words.

Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is

permitted to make disciples all over the world."

 

This is a statement which outlines the qualifications

of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In

other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the

principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization

in the quote. Just like the government states the

principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are

permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain

authorization by passing your driving test. Thus

merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the

authorization.

 

 

2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the

mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of

the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world."

 

This quote is as before stating the principle, that if

someone can do such & such then he is qualified to

make disciples. Again there is no mention here of

authorization to do so. This quote again states the

qualification NOT authorization.

 

 

However he is not alone in adopting this bluff tactic

to maintain the Guru hoax. This is a question which

has been asked of ISKCON members for quite some time

now. Needless to say the replies are various and

Ramakanta has merely added to the diversity of

answers. But I ask .... How can there be many

different versions of the truth?

 

Decide for yourselves what really happened, because

the GBC and ISKCON leaders can't!

 

Let's begin with WHEN were the Guru hoaxers authorised

to become Gurus?

 

1) May 28th, 1977

"The present paper will show that on May 28th, 1977,

Srila Prabhupada ordered his disciples to become

initiating spiritual masters."

(Disciple of My Disciple, p2, Badrinarayana Das,

Umapati Swami et al., 1997)

 

2) July 7th, 1977

"On July 7th. Prabhupada gave the list of those he

"chose." The process was already clear. First on his

behalf, then regular guru."

(Continuing the Parampara, Sivarama Swami, p20, 1994)

 

3) July 8th, 1977

"The appointment of July 8th which is the only

appointment on record is the appointment of

ritviks...Most devotees who have studied this

transcribed conversation agree that it is reasonable

to conclude that Prabhupada expected those who

officiated as ritviks in his presence would continue

after his disappearance as diksa-gurus under his

order."

('Under My Order': Reflections on the Guru in ISKCON',

Ravindra Svarupa Das, 1985)

 

4) July 9th, 1977

"Thus the July 9 letter was not, as falsely claimed by

the author, a "final order," a "policy statement on

how he wanted initiations to run within ISKCON," but

merely an interim order, which got the named persons

functioning as gurus even in his own presence yet

while still observing the etiquette."

(Prabhupada's Order, Appendix 3, GBC 1998)

 

 

Furthermore HOW were the Guru hoaxers authorised to

become Gurus?

 

1) By Srila Prabhupada directly

"Here Prabhupada says to the entire leadership of the

Krishna consciousness movement (the GBC, sannyasis,

and presidents gathered at Mayapur) that he expects

them to become acaryas (gurus) who will initiate their

own disciples...So it is abundantly clear that

Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6, 1975

lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples"

(Drutakarama Das, The Phantom Order, 1998)

 

"The day Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to Bhakti Caru

Swami, he told him, 'Now that you are a sannyasi, you

can give initiation. But as long as the spiritual

master is alive one doesn't give initiation. That is

the etiquette.'"

(Gurus and Initiations in ISKCON, GBC, 1995)

 

 

2) By the GBC

"Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to decide who would

initiate"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

"Your diksa guru is giving you diksa because the

institution of ISKCON decided that he should give

diksa."

(Bhakti Caru Swami, Text PAMHO6829041, Monday 19 May

2003)

 

 

WHO was authorised to be Guru?

 

1) 11 devotees authorised to be Guru

"Srila Prabhupada named eleven devotees to give diksa"

[as initiating gurus]

(Sivarama Swami, Siksa outside ISKCON?, p.28, Lal

Publishing, 2002)

 

2) No one authorised to be Guru

"Srila Prabhupada did not want to name anyone as his

successor or successors"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

 

Was Guru authorisation clear?

 

1) It was very clear

"Srila Prabhupada made it quite clear that they would

initiate after his disappearance"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

"But there never has been any doubt that Srila

Prabhupada clearly ordered his followers to carry on

the parampara as regular gurus."

(Ritvik Catechism: Questions and Answers on Ritvik,

GBC, 1998)

 

2) It was very unclear

"Srila Prabhupda's statements in this issue appear to

be somewhat vague, which is very unusual for Srila

Prabhupada"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

"I must also admit that Srila Prabhupada did not say

anything very clearly about how the initiation system

in ISKCON should be after his disappearance from this

planet."

(Bhakti Caru Swami, Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and

Answers', Published on June 11, 2000)

 

Thus ISKCON has not been able to give one clear answer

for when, how or who - was authorised to be Guru.

Neither are they even clear, if the authorisation was

clear! In answer to the question, "how can there be

many versions of the truth?" The answer of course is

there can't be. There can only be one version of the

truth by definition. And this version has been given

consistently in The Final Order, as well as repeated

in the pages of Back To Prabhupada magazine; and here

it is:

 

"Srila Prabhupada alone shall be the diksa

(initiating) Guru for as long as ISKCON exists. This

is supported both by his last written directive on the

subject of initiations issued to all ISKCON GBCs and

Temple Presidents, and also by his Last Will and

Testament."

 

Simple. One Fact. One Truth. One Guru. One united and

glorious ISKCON.

The very fact that the Guru hoaxers and bluffers have

had to concoct many contradictory and different

stories to support their Guru system is one of the

strongest evidences that we are dealing with a hoax.

Just as with any complex and lengthy crime or hoax,

the criminals usually struggle to get their 'story

straight' between them, and due to the propensity of

the conditioned soul to make mistakes, discrepancies

in the story of the hoax will naturally occur as the

hoax is perpetrated.

If Srila Prabhupada really had authorised diksa Gurus

to replace him in ISKCON, why can't the GBC simply

state, with one voice, for all time, when, how and who

was authorised? Why haven't they been able to state it

for almost 30 years now?

Simple, because no such Gurus were ever authorised!

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON would

have ten million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor

ritvik friends think that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I

pity them.

 

 

 

 

failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudana

Dasa

Monday, August 08, 2005 8:57 AM

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH); Revatinandana;

cthankey (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk

Cc: Initiations in ISKCON

Re: Continuing the disciplic succession

 

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

"That is a good example." Says Ramakant prabhu, so let us continue with this

example.....

 

The thief has been caught, he is desperate now, so he tries some bluff,

maybe the policeman is stupid. Since not all policemen become policemen

through qualification, some get the job through nepotism or such like. So he

pulls out his driving license and points to a statement which says, "Joe

Smith is hereby authorised by the government..." However the policeman is no

fool, he points out to the thief that the government has authorised Mr.

Smith to drive a car NOT to be in the building. So the bluff fails.

 

Ramakant when pressed for authorization for the present diksa gurus in

ISKCON has in reply tried the bluff tactic out of desperation.

 

Let us look at his quotes which he claims is authorization for diksa gurus

in ISKCON.

 

1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the

belly, anger, the mind and words.

Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make

disciples all over the world."

 

This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa guru and

the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to make disciples.

In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the principle. Since

there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. Just like the government

states the principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are permitted to

drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization by passing your driving

test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization.

 

 

2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the

actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world."

 

This quote is as before stating the principle, that if someone can do such &

such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again there is no mention here

of authorization to do so. This quote again states the qualification NOT

authorization.

 

 

However he is not alone in adopting this bluff tactic to maintain the Guru

hoax. This is a question which has been asked of ISKCON members for quite

some time now. Needless to say the replies are various and Ramakanta has

merely added to the diversity of answers. But I ask .... How can there be

many different versions of the truth?

 

Decide for yourselves what really happened, because the GBC and ISKCON

leaders can't!

 

Let's begin with WHEN were the Guru hoaxers authorised to become Gurus?

 

1) May 28th, 1977

"The present paper will show that on May 28th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada

ordered his disciples to become initiating spiritual masters."

(Disciple of My Disciple, p2, Badrinarayana Das, Umapati Swami et al., 1997)

 

2) July 7th, 1977

"On July 7th. Prabhupada gave the list of those he "chose." The process was

already clear. First on his behalf, then regular guru."

(Continuing the Parampara, Sivarama Swami, p20, 1994)

 

3) July 8th, 1977

"The appointment of July 8th which is the only appointment on record is the

appointment of ritviks...Most devotees who have studied this transcribed

conversation agree that it is reasonable to conclude that Prabhupada

expected those who officiated as ritviks in his presence would continue

after his disappearance as diksa-gurus under his order."

('Under My Order': Reflections on the Guru in ISKCON', Ravindra Svarupa Das,

1985)

 

4) July 9th, 1977

"Thus the July 9 letter was not, as falsely claimed by the author, a "final

order," a "policy statement on how he wanted initiations to run within

ISKCON," but merely an interim order, which got the named persons

functioning as gurus even in his own presence yet while still observing the

etiquette."

(Prabhupada's Order, Appendix 3, GBC 1998)

 

 

Furthermore HOW were the Guru hoaxers authorised to

become Gurus?

 

1) By Srila Prabhupada directly

"Here Prabhupada says to the entire leadership of the

Krishna consciousness movement (the GBC, sannyasis,

and presidents gathered at Mayapur) that he expects

them to become acaryas (gurus) who will initiate their

own disciples...So it is abundantly clear that

Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6, 1975

lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples"

(Drutakarama Das, The Phantom Order, 1998)

 

"The day Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to Bhakti Caru

Swami, he told him, 'Now that you are a sannyasi, you

can give initiation. But as long as the spiritual

master is alive one doesn't give initiation. That is

the etiquette.'"

(Gurus and Initiations in ISKCON, GBC, 1995)

 

 

2) By the GBC

"Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to decide who would

initiate"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

"Your diksa guru is giving you diksa because the

institution of ISKCON decided that he should give

diksa."

(Bhakti Caru Swami, Text PAMHO6829041, Monday 19 May

2003)

 

 

WHO was authorised to be Guru?

 

1) 11 devotees authorised to be Guru

"Srila Prabhupada named eleven devotees to give diksa"

[as initiating gurus]

(Sivarama Swami, Siksa outside ISKCON?, p.28, Lal

Publishing, 2002)

 

2) No one authorised to be Guru

"Srila Prabhupada did not want to name anyone as his

successor or successors"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

 

Was Guru authorisation clear?

 

1) It was very clear

"Srila Prabhupada made it quite clear that they would

initiate after his disappearance"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

"But there never has been any doubt that Srila

Prabhupada clearly ordered his followers to carry on

the parampara as regular gurus."

(Ritvik Catechism: Questions and Answers on Ritvik,

GBC, 1998)

 

2) It was very unclear

"Srila Prabhupda's statements in this issue appear to

be somewhat vague, which is very unusual for Srila

Prabhupada"

(Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New

Mayapur, France)

 

"I must also admit that Srila Prabhupada did not say

anything very clearly about how the initiation system

in ISKCON should be after his disappearance from this

planet."

(Bhakti Caru Swami, Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and

Answers', Published on June 11, 2000)

 

Thus ISKCON has not been able to give one clear answer

for when, how or who - was authorised to be Guru.

Neither are they even clear, if the authorisation was

clear! In answer to the question, "how can there be

many versions of the truth?" The answer of course is

there can't be. There can only be one version of the

truth by definition. And this version has been given

consistently in The Final Order, as well as repeated

in the pages of Back To Prabhupada magazine; and here

it is:

 

"Srila Prabhupada alone shall be the diksa

(initiating) Guru for as long as ISKCON exists. This

is supported both by his last written directive on the

subject of initiations issued to all ISKCON GBCs and

Temple Presidents, and also by his Last Will and

Testament."

 

Simple. One Fact. One Truth. One Guru. One united and

glorious ISKCON.

The very fact that the Guru hoaxers and bluffers have

had to concoct many contradictory and different

stories to support their Guru system is one of the

strongest evidences that we are dealing with a hoax.

Just as with any complex and lengthy crime or hoax,

the criminals usually struggle to get their 'story

straight' between them, and due to the propensity of

the conditioned soul to make mistakes, discrepancies

in the story of the hoax will naturally occur as the

hoax is perpetrated.

If Srila Prabhupada really had authorised diksa Gurus

to replace him in ISKCON, why can't the GBC simply

state, with one voice, for all time, when, how and who

was authorised? Why haven't they been able to state it

for almost 30 years now?

Simple, because no such Gurus were ever authorised!

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> This is a statement which outlines the qualifications

> of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

> qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In

> other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the

> principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization

> in the quote. Just like the government states the

> principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are

> permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain

> authorization by passing your driving test. Thus

> merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the

> authorization.

 

Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or sastra. Otherwise I will

discard your statement as speculation from someone who is not qualified.

 

In the rest of your text you have not explained how the authorization to

initiate looks like. You just evaded my question. So you are not qualified

and not authorized to judge the ISKCON gurus. Please let qualified persons

do that. Please stop your bluff of playing policeman and presenting yourself

as someone who has knowledge about authorizations to initiate.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Where is the government document that says that 17 year

olds are permitted to drive cars?

 

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

[Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:17 PM

Madhusudana Dasa; Revatinandana; cthankey (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk

Cc: Initiations in ISKCON

Re: Continuing the disciplic succession

 

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa

> guru and the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to

> make disciples. In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining

> the principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization in the

> quote. Just like the government states the principle that when you

> reach the age of 17 you are permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have

> to gain authorization by passing your driving test. Thus merely

> stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization.

 

Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or sastra. Otherwise I will

discard your statement as speculation from someone who is not qualified.

 

In the rest of your text you have not explained how the authorization to

initiate looks like. You just evaded my question. So you are not qualified

and not authorized to judge the ISKCON gurus. Please let qualified persons

do that. Please stop your bluff of playing policeman and presenting yourself

as someone who has knowledge about authorizations to initiate.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant et al.

 

The situation is this, Ramakant has presented the

following quotes as authorisation for the present

ISKCON gurus.

 

 

1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue,

the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words.

Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is

permitted to make disciples all over the world."

 

This is a statement which outlines the qualifications

of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In

other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the

principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization

in the quote. Just like the government states the

principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are

permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain

authorization by passing your driving test. Thus

merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the

authorization.

 

 

2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the

mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of

the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world."

 

This quote is as before stating the principle, that if

someone can do such & such then he is qualified to

make disciples. Again there is no mention here of

authorization to do so. This quote again states the

qualification NOT authorization.

 

He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which are

concluded according to reason and logic. Challenging,

"Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or

sastra."

 

Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru

order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my order,

[...] But by my order, [...] When I order"). And this

situation remained unchanged until his departure. The

use of 'when' means something that has not yet

happened, and that therefore that order of

authorisation had yet to be given.

 

Therefore it is as previously stated.

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

__

Start your day with - make it your home page

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

--- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

<Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON

> would

> have ten million initiating gurus (acharyas). These

> poor

> ritvik friends think that Srila Prabhupada was

> wrong. I

> pity them.

 

 

 

"And to become acarya is not very difficult. [...]

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa, yare dekha tare

kaha krsna-upadesa: "By following My order, you become

guru." [...] Then, in future... suppose you have got

now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand.

That is required. Then hundred thousand to million;

and million to ten million." (SP C.c. Lecture,

6/4/75, Mayapur)

 

It has already been demonstrated that Lord Caitanya's

instruction was for everyone to preach vigorously,

make lots of Krsna conscious followers, but not to

take disciples. This point is re-inforced where Srila

Prabhupada encourages his disciples to make many more

devotees. It is significant that Srila Prabhupada

states "suppose you have got now ten thousand..."

(i.e. in Srila Prabhupada's presence). From this, it

is clear he is talking about Krsna conscious

followers, not 'disciples of his disciples', since the

main point of the lecture was that they should not

initiate in his presence. The implication being then,

that just as at that time there may have been around

ten thousand followers of Krsna Consciousness, so in

the future millions more would be added. The ritvik

system was to ensure that when these followers became

suitably qualified for initiation, they could receive

diksa from Srila Prabhupada, just as they could when

he gave the above lecture. ("The Final Order",

p12-15)

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

__

Start your day with - make it your home page

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

You have stated, "It has already been demonstrated that Lord Caitanya's

instruction

was for everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna conscious

followers, but

not to take disciples." If this were the case the disciplic succession

would have

stopped with Lord Caitanya. There would be no more gurus after Him.

 

 

 

 

failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudana

Dasa

Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:33 AM

Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)

Cc: Initiations in ISKCON

RE: Continuing the disciplic succession

 

--- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

<Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON would have ten

> million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor ritvik friends think

> that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I pity them.

 

 

 

"And to become acarya is not very difficult. [...] amara ajnaya guru hana

tara ei desa, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: "By following My order,

you become guru." [...] Then, in future... suppose you have got now ten

thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand.

That is required. Then hundred thousand to million;

and million to ten million." (SP C.c. Lecture,

6/4/75, Mayapur)

 

It has already been demonstrated that Lord Caitanya's instruction was for

everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna conscious followers, but

not to take disciples. This point is re-inforced where Srila Prabhupada

encourages his disciples to make many more devotees. It is significant that

Srila Prabhupada states "suppose you have got now ten thousand..."

(i.e. in Srila Prabhupada's presence). From this, it is clear he is talking

about Krsna conscious followers, not 'disciples of his disciples', since the

main point of the lecture was that they should not initiate in his presence.

The implication being then, that just as at that time there may have been

around ten thousand followers of Krsna Consciousness, so in the future

millions more would be added. The ritvik system was to ensure that when

these followers became suitably qualified for initiation, they could receive

diksa from Srila Prabhupada, just as they could when he gave the above

lecture. ("The Final Order",

p12-15)

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement -

http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

__

Start your day with - make it your home page

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

Sankarsana wrote...

> > In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON

> would have ten

> > million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor

> ritvik friends think

> > that Srila Prabhupada was wrong.

 

How can the 10,000 refer to diksa Gurus

when Srila Prabhupada says suppose "NOW we have

10,000." WHERE were these 10,000 Diksa

Gurus and WHO were they?

 

The 10,000 cannot be referring to Diksa Gurus since SP

was speaking of what was present in his presence. So

if the 10,000 doesn't refer to diksa Gurus, then

neither does its expansion to 10 million.

 

So we can see that it is Sankarsana that's got it

wrong.

 

If you concede this point we can then move on to your

last post.

 

 

 

 

--- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

<Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> You have stated, "It has already been demonstrated

> that Lord Caitanya's

> instruction

> was for everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of

> Krsna conscious

> followers, but

> not to take disciples." If this were the case the

> disciplic succession

> would have

> stopped with Lord Caitanya. There would be no more

> gurus after Him.

>

>

>

>

> failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> On Behalf Of Madhusudana

> Dasa

> Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:33 AM

> Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)

> Cc: Initiations in ISKCON

> RE: Continuing the disciplic succession

>

> --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

> <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON

> would have ten

> > million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor

> ritvik friends think

> > that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I pity them.

>

>

>

> "And to become acarya is not very difficult. [...]

> amara ajnaya guru hana

> tara ei desa, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa:

> "By following My order,

> you become guru." [...] Then, in future... suppose

> you have got now ten

> thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand.

> That is required. Then hundred thousand to million;

> and million to ten million." (SP C.c. Lecture,

> 6/4/75, Mayapur)

>

> It has already been demonstrated that Lord

> Caitanya's instruction was for

> everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna

> conscious followers, but

> not to take disciples. This point is re-inforced

> where Srila Prabhupada

> encourages his disciples to make many more devotees.

> It is significant that

> Srila Prabhupada states "suppose you have got now

> ten thousand..."

> (i.e. in Srila Prabhupada's presence). From this, it

> is clear he is talking

> about Krsna conscious followers, not 'disciples of

> his disciples', since the

> main point of the lecture was that they should not

> initiate in his presence.

> The implication being then, that just as at that

> time there may have been

> around ten thousand followers of Krsna

> Consciousness, so in the future

> millions more would be added. The ritvik system was

> to ensure that when

> these followers became suitably qualified for

> initiation, they could receive

> diksa from Srila Prabhupada, just as they could when

> he gave the above

> lecture. ("The Final Order",

> p12-15)

>

> Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON

> Revival Movement -

> http://www.iskconirm.com

>

>

>

> __

> Start your day with - make it your home page

> http://www./r/hs

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

-----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email

> to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> How can the 10,000 refer to diksa Gurus

> when Srila Prabhupada says suppose "NOW we have

> 10,000." WHERE were these 10,000 Diksa

> Gurus and WHO were they?

 

Come on! "Suppose you have got now ten thousand" does not mean "you have got

now ten thousand". Didn't you notice the word "suppose" (to imagine, to

assume to be true or real for the sake of argument or explanation)?

 

Further, are you sure that Sankarsana Prabhu was referring to this

conversation?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> This is a statement which outlines the qualifications

> of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

> qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In

> other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the

> principle.

 

You have not presented a quote from Srila Prabhupada that confirms your

conclusion. So I discard it as speculation. You only presented a quote that

says that there is another condition, maybe added later.

 

> He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which are

> concluded according to reason and logic.

 

Please present a quote that confirms that material reason and logic can be

applied to sprititual matters. (I have learned that this connot be done.)

 

> Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru

> order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my order,

> [...] But by my order, [...] When I order").

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur had not given the diksa guru order

even as late as his departure. Still you accept Srila Prabhupada as an

authorized diksa guru. You are inconsequent!

 

Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila

Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the

authorization?

 

If not, please answer the old question: What would you accept as an

authorization? And then show us that this authorization was there for Srila

Prabhupada but for none of his disciples.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

Let me deal with one point at a time. Let us get the

point of authorization clear before jumping to other

points.

 

Do you accept that authorization had not been given by

Srila Prabhupada by May 28th 1977 ("On my

order, [...] But by my order, [...] When I order").

Or do you still maintain that the 2 quotes you gave

are the order?

 

 

 

 

--- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > This is a statement which outlines the

> qualifications

> > of the diksa guru and the principle that such a

> > qualified person is permitted to make disciples.

> In

> > other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining

> the

> > principle.

>

> You have not presented a quote from Srila Prabhupada

> that confirms your

> conclusion. So I discard it as speculation. You only

> presented a quote that

> says that there is another condition, maybe added

> later.

>

> > He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which

> are

> > concluded according to reason and logic.

>

> Please present a quote that confirms that material

> reason and logic can be

> applied to sprititual matters. (I have learned that

> this connot be done.)

>

> > Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa

> guru

> > order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my

> order,

> > [...] But by my order, [...] When I order").

>

> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur had not given

> the diksa guru order

> even as late as his departure. Still you accept

> Srila Prabhupada as an

> authorized diksa guru. You are inconsequent!

>

> Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has

> been instructed by Srila

> Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his

> departure. Isn't that the

> authorization?

>

> If not, please answer the old question: What would

> you accept as an

> authorization? And then show us that this

> authorization was there for Srila

> Prabhupada but for none of his disciples.

>

> ys Ramakanta dasa

>

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

1) "Suppose" means that 10,000 is not the EXACT

number, but an approximation of the number of

disciples Srila Prabhupada had at the time.

2) Otherwise the "argument or explanation" does not

work, because didn't you notice the word "expand" in

the quote? What is it we are expanding

FROM?

- i.e. who were these (whatever EXACT number) Diksa

Gurus from which we were 'expanding' to 10 million?

You need some Diksa Gurus to BEGIN with in order to

expand their number.

3) Let Sankarsana produce his '10 million' quote if it

is not the one I spoke of.

 

 

 

 

--- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> > How can the 10,000 refer to diksa Gurus

> > when Srila Prabhupada says suppose "NOW we have

> > 10,000." WHERE were these 10,000 Diksa

> > Gurus and WHO were they?

>

> Come on! "Suppose you have got now ten thousand"

> does not mean "you have got

> now ten thousand". Didn't you notice the word

> "suppose" (to imagine, to

> assume to be true or real for the sake of argument

> or explanation)?

>

> Further, are you sure that Sankarsana Prabhu was

> referring to this

> conversation?

>

> ys Ramakanta dasa

>

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

We've asked Madhusudana Prabhu to back us his example of a government

which states the principle that 17 year old's can drive cars.

We have not heard from him yet on this point.

 

 

 

 

 

failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudana

Dasa

Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:53 AM

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

Cc: Initiations in ISKCON (Sender: Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net)

Re: Continuing the disciplic succession

 

Ramakant et al.

 

The situation is this, Ramakant has presented the following quotes as

authorisation for the present ISKCON gurus.

 

 

1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

 

The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the

belly, anger, the mind and words.

Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make

disciples all over the world."

 

This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa guru and

the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to make disciples.

In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the principle. Since

there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. Just like the government

states the principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are permitted to

drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization by passing your driving

test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization.

 

 

2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

 

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the

actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is

qualified to make disciples all over the world."

 

This quote is as before stating the principle, that if someone can do such &

such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again there is no mention here

of authorization to do so. This quote again states the qualification NOT

authorization.

 

He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which are concluded according to

reason and logic. Challenging, "Please confirm this by a quote from guru,

sadhu or sastra."

 

Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru order even as late as

May 28th, 1977 ("On my order, [...] But by my order, [...] When I order").

And this situation remained unchanged until his departure. The use of 'when'

means something that has not yet happened, and that therefore that order of

authorisation had yet to be given.

 

Therefore it is as previously stated.

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement -

http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

__

Start your day with - make it your home page

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

I'm not qualified to answer such an advanced question

as this.

However do not be disappointed, I'm sure that you will

find an answer from one of the ISKCON diksa gurus.

After all a diksa guru is a mahabhagavata for whom

such a question should be - no problem.

 

Maha-bhagavata-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam

sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih

maha-kula-prasuto' pi sarva-yajnesu diksitah

sahasra-sakhadhya yi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah

 

 "The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of

devotional service. There are three classes of

devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the

topmost class." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

 

 

 

--- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

<Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> We've asked Madhusudana Prabhu to back us his

> example of a government

> which states the principle that 17 year old's can

> drive cars.

> We have not heard from him yet on this point.

>

>

>

>

>

> failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> On Behalf Of Madhusudana

> Dasa

> Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:53 AM

> Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

> CH)

> Cc: Initiations in ISKCON (Sender:

> Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net)

> Re: Continuing the disciplic succession

>

> Ramakant et al.

>

> The situation is this, Ramakant has presented the

> following quotes as

> authorisation for the present ISKCON gurus.

>

>

> 1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7:

>

> The six agents of sense gratification are the

> tongue, the genitals, the

> belly, anger, the mind and words.

> Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is

> permitted to make

> disciples all over the world."

>

> This is a statement which outlines the

> qualifications of the diksa guru and

> the principle that such a qualified person is

> permitted to make disciples.

> In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining

> the principle. Since

> there is NO mention of authorization in the quote.

> Just like the government

> states the principle that when you reach the age of

> 17 you are permitted to

> drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization

> by passing your driving

> test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in

> itself the authorization.

>

>

> 2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1:

>

> A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak,

> the mind's demands, the

> actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly

> and genitals is

> qualified to make disciples all over the world."

>

> This quote is as before stating the principle, that

> if someone can do such &

> such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again

> there is no mention here

> of authorization to do so. This quote again states

> the qualification NOT

> authorization.

>

> He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which

> are concluded according to

> reason and logic. Challenging, "Please confirm this

> by a quote from guru,

> sadhu or sastra."

>

> Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru

> order even as late as

> May 28th, 1977 ("On my order, [...] But by my order,

> [...] When I order").

> And this situation remained unchanged until his

> departure. The use of 'when'

> means something that has not yet happened, and that

> therefore that order of

> authorisation had yet to be given.

>

> Therefore it is as previously stated.

>

> Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON

> Revival Movement -

> http://www.iskconirm.com

>

>

>

> __

> Start your day with - make it your home page

> http://www./r/hs

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

-----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email

> to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ramakanta prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

TKG disagrees with SDG explanation in his Pyramid

House Confession as follows ....

 

"The inspiration came because there was a questioning

on my part, so Krsna spoke.

 

Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He

didn't appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven

ritviks. He never appointed them gurus.

 

Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest

disservice to this movement the last three years (35

now) because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks

as the appointment of gurus.

 

What actually happened, I'll explain. I explained it,

but the interpretation is wrong. What actually

happened was that Prabhupada mentioned that he might

be appointing some ritviks, so the GBC met for various

reasons and they went to Prabhupada - five or six of

us. We asked him, "Srila Prabhupada, after your

departure, if we accept disciples, whose disciples

will they be, your disciples or mine?" Later on there

was a piled-up list for people to get initiated, and

it was jammed-up. I said, "Srila Prabhupada, you once

mentioned about ritviks. I don't know what to do. We

don't want to approach you, but there's hundreds of

devotees named, and I'm just holding all the letters.

I don't know what you want to do."

 

So Prabhupada said, "All right. I will appoint so

many...," and he started to name them and he did name

them. He made it very clear that they're his

disciples. At that point it was very clear in my mind

that they were his disciples." (Topanga Canyon

Confessions)

 

He also states ....

 

"Well, I have studied myself and all of your

disciples, and it's a clear fact that we are all

conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day

it may be possible." [RC.APRIL 22, 1977, BOMBAY]

 

In the same conversation Srila Prabhupada states ....

 

"Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is

guru, 'Now you become acarya. You become authorised.'

I am waiting for that. You become, all, acarya. I

retire completely. But the training must be complete."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada says, "You become authorised" again

if the authorization had already been given as YOU

claim then Srila Prabhupada's statement here becomes

meaningless.

 

Furthermore so determined was Satsvarupa Das to

convince the world of his legitimacy as an initiating

Guru, he invented his own version of the May 28th,

1977 conversation with Srila Prabhupada (the so-called

"Appointment tape") which to this day is still printed

in the Lilamrta. Below we give an amalgam of all four

official GBC versions of the relevant section of the

conversation (with variations in brackets):

 

 

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami:So (then) (they) (they'll)

(may) also be considered your disciples?

Srila Prabhupada:Yes, they are disciples, (but) (why)

consider ... who

Tamal Krsna Goswami:No. He is asking that these ritvik

acaryas, they are officiating, giving diksa,

(there)... the people who they give diksa to, whose

disciples are they?

Srila Prabhupada:They are his disciples.

Tamal Krsna Goswami:They are his disciples (?)

Srila Prabhupada:Who is initiating ... (his) (he is)

grand-disciple ...

 

And below is Satsvarupa's invented version as it

appears in the Lilamrta:

 

"So they may also be considered your disciples," said

Satsvarupa, referring to those persons initiated on

Prabhupada's behalf by the ritvik acarya.

"They are their disciples," said Srila Prabhupada.

Now he was speaking of initiations after his passing

away. "They are the disciples of the one who is

initiating. And they are my grand disciples..."

(Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, Srila Prabhupada-lilamrta,

Vol.6, 'Uniting Two Worlds', chapter 8)

 

In the actual recording, Srila Prabhupada agrees that

all disciples initiated within the ritvik system are

his...

 

Satsvarupa:So they may also be considered your

disciples

Srila Prabhupada:Yes, they are disciples...

 

....this completely contradicts the idea that Srila

Prabhupada was appointing successors, so what does

Satsvarupa do? He skips that line completely and then

changes "They are his disciples" (where Srila

Prabhupada can only have been speaking of himself in

the third person, since "his" is singular) to:

"They are their disciples," which gives the false

impression of a plurality of initiators. Thus we are

meant to understand that the ritviks mentioned at the

beginning of the conversation will magically transform

themselves into fully fledged diksa Gurus. Satsvarupa

then claims that Srila Prabhupada selected or

appointed him and ten others as diksa Gurus, even

though the GBC abandoned this claim in the mid-1980s:

 

"Later, he would select "some of you,"and whoever he

selected could become an initiating guru."

(Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, Srila Prabhupada-lilamrta,

Vol.6, 'Uniting Two Worlds', chapter 8)

 

As the GBC have been forced to concede, there was no

special diksa Guru selection. Srila Prabhupada only

ever "selected" eleven devotees to act as ritviks, or

representative priests, not as diksa Gurus in their

own right. Yet the Lilamrta is sold in temple

bookshops as though it were the gospel truth.

 

 

>> Or do you still maintain that the 2 quotes you

>>gave are the order?

 

>Yes, the quotes and Sankarsana Prabhu's statement.

>Why not?

 

"Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so

many things that ``Prabhupada said.''" [sPL 75-09-02]

 

 

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com