Let's examine this closely

[theist 1]

 

"The case is different with those few lucky ones who have an exclusively firm faith in Krsna's holy name; they take, by unbounded grace of Krsna, shelter at the feet of such a spiritual guide who is an ontologist of the holy name, i.e., who has realized and does see the svarüpa (form) of the holy name. Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary, still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana. The mere letters of the holy name may be had at any place and from anybody, but the profound and unknown truth that is lurking behind those letters can only be exposed by the grace of a true preceptor who is purely devoted to Krsna. The grace of the spiritual guide alone can pass over from the early twilight from the ten offenses hindering the true service of the holy name." -Bhaktivinoda Thakur from the Hari nama cintamani

 

What does this statement from Bhaktivinode Thakur mean?

[bija 0]

Theist, the quotation starts of with the sentence, "The case is different....".

Could you possibly post some preceding verses so we can read what this is alluding to and the context. And if possible direct us where in the Hari Nama Cintamani these verses are.

I am interested to understand this very special verse also.

 

One of my spiritual teachers students asked a question to him a while back about initiation and the Holy Name. His response was liberation can be gained from the Name without initiation.

I know that the above verse is not referring to liberation but much much more.

He seemed to stress the importance of initiation to receive the Guru's, how do you say it, divine realisations of love in the Holy Name. But the closer I read his reply, he seemed to leave room that this may not be the case with all souls. He is very knowledgable of many of the books in our spiritual line, especially of Bhaktivinoda's books. So I am sure he would be well aware of the above verse from Hari Nama Cintamani. By stressing the importance of initiation he would be instructing his disciples and students including me (this is why he instructed this way), and also following his Guru Maharaja. But yes...it seems from his reply, and the above verse that this is not always applicable.

[bija 0]

Here is the forum conversation I mentioned, I hope it sheds some light on Bhaktivinoda's verse. It is the same question and answer I posted in our last conversation about the Holy Name and initiation, please do read it carefully....

 

 

I have one question. What is the value if someone chants the Holy Name and he or she is not initiated (diksa)? Some devotees say that only benefit of such chanting is preparation for diksa, and that real connection and chanting is not possible if one does not receive mantra diksa? For example, I am reading vaisnava books and chanting Holy Names, associate with devotees and following regulative principles for more then decade. My wife is also devotee and we are practicing chanting and reading together, but we are not initiated. By Gauranga's mercy I preached to many devotees in this area and some of them become initiated within

ISKCON, some in other Gaudiya organisations. I see that this divine process is eternal activity, but some devotees say what are you

waiting - you must hurry, you never know how long you will live and without diksa there is no real connection with Lord! I was (and still am) in contact with several spiritual masters and advanced devotees and getting inspiration (siksa) from them. I was never interested in "institutional" concensess but in finding a devotee, in whatever institution or place he may belong. Could you please give me some advice? Thank you very much.

 

Answer:

Thankyou for your nice inquiry and for helping many souls to take up Naam bhajan. Please read fully the link below which answers your question and then let me know if you have any further questions:

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/15/108/en1

 

Question:

Dear Maharaja, thank you for your answer. I will study material and ask you additional questions about this topic if necessary. Thank you! Gaurapremanande haribol!

 

Question:

Dear Maharaja, could you please clarify to me the next statements that seem to be contradictory to me.

 

1. From one side:

“Unless one is initiated by a bona-fide Vaishnava spiritual master in a bonafide and authentic Vaishnava disciplic succession, the Mantra one might have received is without any effect.” from Padma Purana

 

So it is clearly stated that “Unless one is initiated by a bona-fide Vaishnava spiritual master… the Mantra one might have received is without any effect.”

 

2.From other side:

"O best of the brahmanas, even without initiation, preliminary purification or acceptance of the renounced order, one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lord's holy name."

Ramarcana-candrika

 

So it is clearly stated that ” even without initiation… one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lord's holy name ”

 

It is a little bit confusing – “without initiation mantra is without any effect” and ”even without initiation simply by chanting one can attain perfection”

 

So, I am humbly asking, could you please clarify this statements of sastra.

 

Answer:

To answer your question, it is necessary to analyse the Ramarcana-candrika verse:

 

vinaiva diksham viprendra purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina japa-matrena siddhi-da

 

In this verse it is not specifically mentioned perfection in terms of attaining pure love for the Lord. japa-matrena siddhi da means perfection in the process of chanting but it may not involve the supreme causeless mercy of the Lord upon us in terms of pure love of God which is the highest effect of chanting the Holy Name Mantras.

The Holy Names will surely benefit and deliver the souls from material bondage who simply vibrate Them with their tongue even without any initiation or external purification. But to attain pure love, which is the goal of chanting, one should receive the Holy Names from the Guru in the normal case. That is what the Padma Purana verse is taking about. Ofcourse

sometimes the chanter may be very very much advanced from his or her previous lives and may have accepted Guru in the previous lives, then he or she may attain pure love simply by the mercy of the Holy Names. But this is very very rarely seen even among the eternal associates of the Lord who always accept Diksha from a living spiritual master to set an example for

all souls.

 

The word "nishphala" in the Padma Purana verses means that the though the Holy Names may grant liberation to the chanter but generally to attain pure love of God by chanting the Name one should accept initiation in the Holy Names from a Vaishnava Guru from any of the four sampradayas, ideally a Gaudiya Vaishnava Guru.

 

In other words, the chanting of Hare Krishna is so powerful that it does not depend on initiation to deliver the soul, but if the soul wants to go higher than liberation and enter into the spiritual world and quickly attain pure love of God without a doubt, then the process of initiation is mandatory as it speedens up this process of attaining prema.

 

The tiny seed of a banyan tree contains the form of a huge, full-grown tree. Placing the seed directly into the ground, however, may not produce a tree. But if a sparrow eats the seed and passes it on the ground with its stool, then a majestic banyan tree will certainly grow forth. The banyan seed must be processed in this way to give sureshot results. Similarly, if one begins chanting the Holy Name mantras after hearing or reading about Them, They will deliver him or her from all material miseries but the highest benefit may not be there. But if one receives the Name Mantras by hearing from the Guru through the process of initiation, then those Holy Names which are coated with the Guru's love, realizations, and relationship with the Lord will produce genuine and pure love for the Supreme Lord in the

heart of the sincere disciple if the disciple patiently chants them daily with devotion and feeling.

[bija 0]

Saying all this, there is much more in Bhaktivinoda's verse than just the initiation issue. I would love to hear more realisations about other topics in the verse also, as my realisations are minimal.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat sugrace-puskalam

"One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru."

 

In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru.

 

There are different classes of guru. All Vaisnavas are considered gurus. If the spiritual master gives even one letter to the disciple, what is contained there is infinite. The knowledge given by the spiritual master is infinite. To know and understand it fully, however, different sources are necessary.

 

In the highest position one can read devotion to Krsna from everywhere. If we can attain the proper vision, then everything will supply me inspiration towards the performance of our duties. Whenever Mahaprabhu saw a forest, he saw it as Vrndavana. Whenever he saw a river, he saw the Yamuna. Whenever he saw a hill, he saw it as Govardhana hill. In that highest stage, wherever we cast our glance, it will remind us about our Lord. They will teach us, they will press us to engage ourselves in service to Krsna. That is the duty of guru. Wherever we cast our glance, whatever we come in contact with will only excite us "Do your duty." That is guru. Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center. So, because every atom in Vaikuntha and Goloka will encourage us towards our duty, they are all our gurus. Gurus will be very amply available when we can raise ourselves to a higher level.

 

 

In the spiritual world every person and every thing is greater and more holy than "I".

 

They are all "my Guru".

 

In the beginning we may shy away from senior Vaishnavas and Gurus. We may be feeling that they may be merely "group leaders" who know a lot about "religion" but who themselves have not attained deep spiritual awakenment. In fact there are many so called Gurus who have very shallow understandings of the reality of Krishna Consciousness so we have some justification in being cautious when it comes to accepting someone as a spiritual authority and an "inspired" saint. But when we have the good fortune to connect with a genuine Vaishnava Guru then the sound of the Holy Name we hear spoken by that Vaishnava will help us to attain purity in our own chanting. Otherwise we can chant Hare Krishna for hundreds of lifetimes and not attain perfection (this is stated in the Caitanya Caritamrta).

[theist 1]

 

Theist, the quotation starts of with the sentence, "The case is different....".

Could you possibly post some preceding verses so we can read what this is alluding to and the context.

 

I see your point though. I copied this quote from some other post somewhere and didn't notice there was no specific citation. That is my error due to laziness and I will correct that soon. But for now perhaps we could just focus on these few sentences for a short while.

 

 

"The case is different with those few lucky ones who have an exclusively firm faith in Krsna's holy name; they take, by unbounded grace of Krsna, shelter at the feet of such a spiritual guide who is an ontologist of the holy name, i.e., who has realized and does see the svarüpa (form) of the holy name. Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary,still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana. The mere letters of the holy name may be had at any place and from anybody, but the profound and unknown truth that is lurking behind those letters can only be exposed by the grace of a true preceptor who is purely devoted to Krsna. The grace of the spiritual guide alone can pass over from the early twilight from the ten offenses hindering the true service of the holy name." -Bhaktivinoda Thakur from the Hari nama cintamani

 

So one can pick up the "mere letters" of the holy name while walking past an Indian shop like Krishna Copy or a poster advertising a certain festival or something. But what one cannot pick up so causually is the realization of the svarupa or form of the holy name. That must come only from one who posseses such realization.

 

I believe one can find both the letters of Krsna's name and the guidance in nama-bhajan to reaslize the actual svarupa of the holy name from the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

So what is lacking? I see nothing lacking.

 

This is not meaing that guru cannot teach you from any angle. Caittya-guru afterall is everywhere.

[bija 0]

 

So what is lacking? I see nothing lacking.

 

This is not meaing that guru cannot teach you from any angle. Caittya-guru afterall is everywhere. quote by theist

This is my point in some way. It depends on the individual soul in question.

You see, my position is that I have very minimal faith. Always have had. But through reading and chanting it is growing. I take solace that as Lord Jesus Christ says, "Faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain."

 

It's funny Theist, I thought...mmmm...will I post a reply on this thread. Then I thought, yeah, why not!

 

What I glean from your realisations is your great faith in Srila Prabhupada, surely this is a qualification in your above mentioned quote. You are very fortunate.

Lord Gauranga is dealing with me somewhat different, and surely this is due to His Great Wisdom as to my position and needs. It is good to feel His loving care.

 

I long for the day that GaurangaKrsna's forms manifests when chanting His Holy Names. Until that day I will continue to chant and nurture the seed, that was originally planted from Srila Prabhupada's and BR Sridhara Maharaja's books.

[bija 0]

 

The case is different with those few lucky ones who have an exclusively firm faith in Krsna's holy name. quote Bhaktivinoda.

 

The words "exclusively firm faith", are interesting.

[theist 1]

 

What I glean from your realisations is your great faith in Srila Prabhupada, surely this is a qualification in your above mentioned quote.

 

No no no. This is not about my faith or lack of it. I want to understand what is being said by Bhaktivinode Thakur and how that is applicable to my life and the lives of others. I am not questioning someone's having taking shelter of one of Prabhupada's disciples as his principle guru. I am not a ritvik who says Prabhupada only.

 

I mention Prabhupada because that is my experience and his books are widely distributed so that is a common reference point.

 

There is this common perception that one "really" gets the holy name at the initiation ceremony by hearing it from a guru. I question this in this way.

 

If one was initiated formally by Hari nama initiation in the morning by a bone fide guru who gave him the pure name then why is that person still chanting offensively in that very afternoon and in days that follow? What happened to the pure name?

 

I am thinking the bonefide guru offered him the pure name for sure so he must not have received it properly or fully. Afterall everytime a suddha bhakta says Krsna he speaks suddha name and not just at the formal initiation ceremony. So it definetely was there but not fully received.

 

That process of learning how to receive suddha-nama by surpassing the offensive and clearing stages is what I believe Bhaktivinode is referring to above, "Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary,still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana."

 

IOW's what I am seeing is that the reception of suddha nama is a process that continues throughout one's life as a sadhaka through the acceptance of the guidance of a devotee who knows the svarupa of the holy name, Krsna.

 

This is what I see as real substantive initiation into the holy name. It's a process of purification that comes through siksa.

 

Thoughts?

[theist 1]

 

The words "exclusively firm faith", are interesting.

 

Yes indeed. And what does the sadhaka do but try to firm up his faith everyday so that he may be counted among those fortunate souls.

 

The ongoing process of intiation. I believe it to be deeper and more true to say "I am being initiated by following _______'s (guru) guidance in chanting the Hare Krsna Mantra." But that would make ordinary conversation too awkward but still I think we should all realize this point.

 

 

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[theist 1]

This is also the reason I see no need for a ritvik "initiation" officiated by some official priest or an "official guru in good standing" duely stamped by some instituiton.

 

Why approach anyone for suddha-nama that doesn't actually possess it? Useless.

 

And again and again I do NOT mean to imply that only Srila Prabhupada can give suddha nama. That is a very dangerous fallacy that goes against all that Srila Prabhupada taught and hoped for from his students and disciples.

[bija 0]

 

The ongoing process of intiation quote Theist

Yes, as I have said to you before in reference to conversations with my born again christian friends years back.

"I am being born again continually." Used to love saying that to them.

 

 

I think we should all realize this point quote Theist

True spiritual life is like this. Nava...ever new, ever fresh.

I think I relate to some degree in what you are saying. Thanks for sharing.

 

Liked very much the Guests post from Sridhara Maharaja's writings, says alot about all this. Diverse manifestation of Guru and developing the vision to see Guru in many places.

 

 

I am being initiated by following _______'s (guru) guidance in chanting the Hare Krsna Mantra quote Theist

You bring this point out alot in various word forms. It's a good one.

[bija 0]

Didn't think you were ritvik minded. Can't put any label on you, just Theist.

[theist 1]

 

Didn't think you were ritvik minded. Can't put any label on you, just Theist.

 

I consider my position to be orthodox. Please be straitforward. Do you agree my my view on his statement or not.

[bija 0]

 

I mention Prabhupada because that is my experience and his books are widely distributed so that is a common reference point. quote theist

Yes, I understand this. I do the same, my relationship with Prabhupada is siksha not diksha line. Sometimes though I truly question about this siksha I profess( am I fully taking siksha-gradually,hopefully.)

 

First of all, let me quote bija:

I long for the day that GaurangaKrsna's forms manifests when chanting His Holy Names. Until that day I will continue to chant and nurture the seed, that was originally planted from Srila Prabhupada's and BR Sridhara Maharaja's books.

You see, this is where I think the seed of the holy name was originally planted in my heart. From the books. And, inconceivably also the seed was planted there at the time I received diksa( as I have said before not Harinama ). So this is inconceivable, Krsna nama is one, Guru is one.

 

 

If one was initiated formally by Hari nama initiation in the morning by a bone fide guru who gave him the pure name then why is that person still chanting offensively in that very afternoon and in days that follow? What happened to the pure name?

 

I am thinking the bonefide guru offered him the pure name for sure so he must not have received it properly or fully. Afterall everytime a suddha bhakta says Krsna he speaks suddha name and not just at the formal initiation ceremony. So it definetely was there but not fully received.

 

That process of learning how to receive suddha-nama by surpassing the offensive and clearing stages is what I believe Bhaktivinode is referring to above, "Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary,still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana." quote theist

 

It is there but not fully manifest due to the mountain of offenses in the heart of the sadhaka. No fault with Krsna nama. Mountains of offences. Gaura Nama Tattva is the key. Bhaktivinoda is very clear about this in the Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya chapter one: One may worship Krsna life time after lifetime and never achieve divine love of Krsna (krsna prema). This is because in the course of one's worship, he is sure to commit many sins and offences. And one who chants the holy name of Krsna can achieve the ecstacy of divine love only if he chants without offences. The worship of Sri Caitanya, however is much different-by worshiping Sri Caitanya, even a soul plagued by offenses attains the treasure of love of Godhead. As soon as one cries out "Nitai-Caitanya!" divine love of God begins searching him out. Even offenses cannot block his progress, and soon he sheds tears of ecstacy in divine love. By the mercy of Sri Caitanya offenses soon disappear, and the heart is cleansed and filled with divine love. No one can live in the present age of kali-yuga without committing innumerable sins; therefore, no one can be delivered without calling out the name of Caitanya. And so I see no other way, no other way, no otherway for deliverance in this age of Kali than to chant the name of Sri Caitanya, worship Sri caitanya, and follow Sri Caitanya's teaching. This is the verdict proclaimed by the revealed scriptures.

This is why I continually stress reading http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en ,please read Srila Prabhupada's purport very carefully. He strongly emphasizes Bhaktivinoda's point over and over. And AC Bhaktivedanta's purport is following Bhaktisiddhanta's purport, who is following Bhaktivinoda's teachings.

Prabhupada so mercifully gave the Panca Tattva Mantra, and so much more in this purport. Do not take it lightly, here is the key. If suddha Krsna nama is not manifesting in the heart of the sadhaka it is due to not taking full shelter of Gaura Tattva and Gaura-Nitai Nama. Mountains of offences.

 

Srila Prabhupada is a great Mahabhagavata and he can implement, teach or deliver Krsna Nama in any way he chooses. He is fully empowered, is he not? He can give Krsna Nama any way he chooses.

But he has left us instructions to follow. And Gaura Tattva is strongly emphasised in them. In some circles this Gaura Tattva seems to be not emphasized so much. When I met Iskcon devotess 14 years ago they did not even mention Gauranga. Sadly I gave up chanting the Hare Krsna Mantra very soon, due to lack of taste and mountains of offences, and not being taught Gaura-Nama Tattva( which in my opinion is the great Key - the secret of all secrets).

[bija 0]

 

Please be straitforward. Do you agree my my view on his statement or not. quote by theist

I humbly beg you Theist, do not try to catch me out by the play of intellect if this is at all in your heart. You will surely defeat me and shame me. I had hesitations about entering this discussion with you because of this. I have given you my answers clearly in my posts, please read them carefully. I am not here, or on this forum to debate over such matters, but only in an attempt for friendship, association and very very basic offering of some service.

And I strongly emphasize, I am no scholar or expert on Bhaktivinoda's great books. Just a soul with minimal association who has come to Audarya for fellowship. Making the best of a bad bargain living here, in a conservative christian majority, country town.

[bija 0]

"Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary,still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana." Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Please be straitforward. Do you agree my my view on his statement or not. quote by theist

Straightforward.....formal initiation may not be necessary. As per the revealed scriptures.

 

But the question must be asked, "why did many perfect souls including great Acarya's and Lord Caitanya Himself take up the process." Surely as an example for us. But saying this, for very fortunate souls (please read the question and answer I posted for details) formal initiation may not be necessary. Lord Gauranga and Bhaktivinoda say this very thing(as per Hari Nama Cintamani) in your post.

 

But who is capable of saying who are these "very fortunate souls" or who are not; it is something I would not like to comment on. For obvious reasons. That is the Lord's hand. This is the reason I was not being straightforward, and also because my use of words and answering you is not such an easy skill for me. It is territory I do not wish to go. Sacred Land. It may be possible that such a rare soul could be a participant in this discussion board(who Knows), you could be one; I do not know. Please try to understand what I am saying here, from my heart.

I have a feeling you may perceive me as having a particular stance and bias in these matters; if so it is not a factual perception. If you perceive me as taking the stance that there is no hope without formal initiation or that it is absolutely necessary, this would be wrong.

I am trying to be as sensitive to your views on these matters as much as within my ability. And saying this, I still do not know fully your heart or motivation in these matters.

 

But, "still a guide is essential in nama-bhajana."

Why is this. One reason I have pointed out(let's use Srila Prabhupada as an example). They can teach us how to approach Krsna Nama. ie: CC Adi Chapter 8 verse 31 purport. Nitai-Gaura Nama Tattva.

[shiva 0]

It's really quite simple. You don't need to take formal initiation but you do need guidance. Without guidance you will be unable to gain entrance into the esoteric realm of the absolute.. The sastra can help, but for a person lacking self realization the sastra needs to be expounded on in furthur detail in order for the esoteric message within the shastra to be understood. If there is the availability of advanced association which can enlighten you to the higher levels then one should take that. Personal association is best because you can ask questions. But the vani or association through the message of the spiritual master is really all that is required. So the point is that you need some siksa guidance beyond shastra in order to help illuminate the true message and intent of the name and shastra. Bhaktivinoda says this from your quote "they take, by unbounded grace of Krsna, shelter at the feet of such a spiritual guide who is an ontologist of the holy name, i.e., who has realized and does see the svarüpa (form) of the holy name."

 

What is the svarupa of the name? The name and the Lord are nondifferent, so the form of the name is the form of the Lord. You can take "shelter at the feet of a spiritual guide" who has realized the form of the Lord (knows the Lord personally) by that person's vani, his words.

[theist 1]

 

It's really quite simple. You don't need to take formal initiation but you do need guidance. Without guidance you will be unable to gain entrance into the esoteric realm of the absolute.. The sastra can help, but for a person lacking self realization the sastra needs to be expounded on in furthur detail in order for the esoteric message within the shastra to be understood. If there is the availability of advanced association which can enlighten you to the higher levels then one should take that. Personal association is best because you can ask questions. But the vani or association through the message of the spiritual master is really all that is required. So the point is that you need some siksa guidance beyond shastra in order to help illuminate the true message and intent of the name and shastra. Bhaktivinoda says this from your quote "they take, by unbounded grace of Krsna, shelter at the feet of such a spiritual guide who is an ontologist of the holy name, i.e., who has realized and does see the svarüpa (form) of the holy name."

 

What is the svarupa of the name? The name and the Lord are nondifferent, so the form of the name is the form of the Lord. You can take "shelter at the feet of a spiritual guide" who has realized the form of the Lord (knows the Lord personally) by that person's vani, his words.

 

Nicely put. Thank you shiva.

 

This is really a carry over from the receiving the holy name thread. I believe the idea of receiving the holy name is being misunderstood, misused and new students are being abused by it's misuse. I want to encourage those that are strong in the shastra's and teaching to challenge that.

 

Here is an example of what I mean. It can be shown that one must receive the holy name from someone who has the holy name, not a shadow or reflection of the name but the real svarupa of the name.

 

Now if we become convinced that the act of receiving the holy name at a formal initiation ceremony then we will see that ceremony as vital. Whereas the only thing that is vital is to receive it from the proper source. So from this misconception that you receive the holy name at some formal Hare Nama initiation ceremony it becomes mistakenly conceived that at all costs one must have such a ceremony. The focus turns to the ceremony and away from receiving the holy name from the proper source.

 

This puts the aspirant subject to the whims and wishes of those who are set up to perform such ceremonies. We see people pledging their lives to the one who performed their ceremony for them despite the fact that the person who gave the ceremony has the svarupa of the holy name or not. Later many of these "gurus" fall down and crush their disciples with them.

 

There is a great pretense going on over who is giving the name. Again only one who has it can give it. And if there are thousands walking in earthly bodies who are qualified then fabulous. And if there are none in such bodies but you find someone in vani form then best take the Hare Nama initiation by vani from the proper source.

[bija 0]

Here is some food for thought from Sri Guru and His Grace, BR Sridhara Maharaja.

 

 

Chapter Ten

Instructing Spiritual Masters

Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession works? I was under the impression

that in your teaching there must be an unbroken chain of disciplic succession beginning

with God Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But when I read Bhaktivedanta

Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I found that the disciplic succession contained

only thirty-eight names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a

complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand these apparent historical

discrepancies?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the

body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In

a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned,

mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana: the highest truth of

Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters.

Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list

of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating

gurus.

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing is siksa, or spiritual instruction.

And if our siksa and diksa gurus or instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent,

then we are most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In the

scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the disciple have been described: the

guru must be qualified in so many ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they

come in connection, the desired result will be produced.

We are concerned with Krsna consciousness, wherever it is available. In the Bhagavad-gita and

especially in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krsna says, "I start the Krsna consciousness movement,

but gradually by the enervating influence of the material world, it weakens. When I find that it

has diminished considerably, I return and begin a fresh movement. Again, when I find that it is

becoming degraded by the adverse influence of the environment, I send one of my representatives

to clear the path and give some fresh energy, invest some fresh capital in my Krsna consciousness

movement." What is Krsna consciousness? We must examine the standard of knowledge.

The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading what Krsna consciousness

really is. Krsna consciousness is not a trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere

souls must thank their lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is, wherever

it may be.

[theist 1]

So the teachings of the parampara have been maintained in book form between "breaks" or reestablished by Krsna "investing more capital" by sending someone to reinvigorate it.

 

But how about the Holy Name? Was it also maintained in book form through those same breaks?

 

My view is that yes it was. Even if the divine being that wrote the book is centuries past in solar years he is ever present as Caitya-guru and His instructions. So say one hundered years from today someone in a small town in some lonely place was to pick up one of Srila Prabhupada's (or anyone who knew the true svarupa of the Holy Name) books, my belief is he could recive proper and full initiation into the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra.

 

We often hear devotees accept that transcendental knowledge can be had through Prabhupada's books so how could initiation into the maha mantra as suddha-nama also not transmitable in the same way?

[bija 0]

Jaya, the truth sings. For years I used to think...I have to receive the holy name, I must get formal initiation to receive Krsna Nama...oh dear, how will I ever find a spiritual master considering I have no contact with devotees let alone a spiritual master. The truth was right before me, in those beautiful books I had collected. But I had been misinformed, by the misinformed.

 

Then oneday I read that Bhaktisiddhanta said that if you do not have physical association with the saints. Read scripture and you will have association. I picked up Caitanya Caritamrita and read about the great Caitanya tree and all the saints. I realised then that it is all about siksha, the rest will follow if it is Krsna's will for the aspirant.

 

Another thing I would like to share. But will not go into details because many Gaudiya's disagree with the practice. And I cannot be bothered with debate and criticism of my loving Spiritual Father/Master.

 

Mercifully he imparted to me a name of Krsna at the time of formal initiation. A name which has become my peace and shelter. The interesting thing is Gurudeva did not receive this particular Name from his guru in a diksha/formal initiation. He actually heard this Name from his own Gurudeva through his vani and the writings in the Guru Parampara. And both these sources had full realisation of the said Name. Controversial, yes, but this is the lineage and process I am following. Gurudeva also said that the Name did not require the process of diksha, but one reason that he imparted it through diksha to me, is so I may have a close bond with him. And follow his siksha and process in chanting the Name very closely. And also he wished to intimately pass his own realisations on to me. A formal process; by no means, but a personal and intimate process, which I am grateful for.

 

Oneday I may aspire for Harinama diksa, Krsna willing, but do I find any inadequacy in my spiritual practice and chanting of the Mahamantra presently. No I do not. But if it is Krsna's will and mercy, I will approach Gurudeva for Harinama diska when that time comes.

[krsna 3]

 

This is also the reason I see no need for a ritvik "initiation" officiated by some official priest or an "official guru in good standing" duely stamped by some instituiton.

 

Why approach anyone for suddha-nama that doesn't actually possess it? Useless.

 

And again and again I do NOT mean to imply that only Srila Prabhupada can give suddha nama. That is a very dangerous fallacy that goes against all that Srila Prabhupada taught and hoped for from his students and disciples.

 

Suddha-nama needs a suddha-guru (nama tattva-vit spiritual master)preceptor acarya who can bestow it on the deserving disciple who desires to do nama-bhajan:

 

"Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary, still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana.":pray:

[Bishadi 0]

 

"The case is different with those few lucky ones who have an exclusively firm faith in Krsna's holy name; they take, by unbounded grace of Krsna, shelter at the feet of such a spiritual guide who is an ontologist of the holy name, i.e., who has realized and does see the svarüpa (form) of the holy name. Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary, still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana. The mere letters of the holy name may be had at any place and from anybody, but the profound and unknown truth that is lurking behind those letters can only be exposed by the grace of a true preceptor who is purely devoted to Krsna. The grace of the spiritual guide alone can pass over from the early twilight from the ten offenses hindering the true service of the holy name." -Bhaktivinoda Thakur from the Hari nama cintamani

this stands out ‘Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary,’

Yet the question is easy; since all words define each experience and name the event to be conveyed. Then each word is of the ‘name’ of Krsna (per se) or better still. Each word describes an experience within Brahman/Vishnu.

Then to assemble the many definitions, understanding is born (realized).

So then read this line again;

 

The mere letters of the holy name may be had at any place and from anybody, but the profound and unknown truth that is lurking behind those letters can only be exposed by the grace of a true preceptor who is purely devoted to Krsna

and how many ‘letters’ are there in this universe?

And to combine them all would be impossible; but in devotion; much can be understood in consciousness (mind) and eventually what would happen? A choice would be made that will be able to convey the ‘name of God.’ Into a summary of few words born of many within the experience we share of Godhead.